Thoughts on this? (Zyphyr Return, and Wits End Change)

BLIGHTBRINGER·Mar 7, 2019·14 votes·11,605 views

David Capurro on Twitter

I don't know what to make of this, other than champions like Jax, Yi, are going to be even stronger.

71 Comments

Critmaster GarenMar 7, 201911 votes

where is my atmas?

where is my revert on steraks?

theyre adding a lot of shit for on hit carries, that juggers cant use, but juggernaut items like steraks gage are used by so many other champions as core items, including mobile skirmishers and divers who shouldnt build this item every game.

item 3748 item 3053 are currently used to greater effect by champions like Irelia Jax Fiora Camille Kled etc. than the champions they were targeted at. when are juggers going to be actually significantly tankier than these guys?

RagnaveilMar 7, 20194 votes

I do agree. Fighters should be allowed to have health/build health in their builds, but never should their tanking and health rival Juggernauts (except Kled, who's bonus hp goes to Skaarl. I count that as a punishment of a sort) without severe consequences. They can be somewhat superior in damage, but not anything in the defense department.

Critmaster GarenMar 7, 20193 votes

{quoted}

I do agree. Fighters should be allowed to have health/build health in their builds, but never should their tanking and health rival Juggernauts (except Kled, who's bonus hp goes to Skaarl. I count that as a punishment of a sort) without severe consequences. They can be somewhat superior in damage, but not anything in the defense department.

steraks gage really needs to go back to a base ad increase, and they need to rework the sheen interaction instead.

when it was changed from base ad into bonus ad was the point when so many non juggers made it part of their core build. its supposed to be a niche defensive item for these champions, while its supposed to be largely more effective on juggernauts.

but since the change to bonus ad, steraks empowers abilities like fioras passive, jax and irelias ad scaling abilities etc. its become way too good of an item on non juggernauts.

SaevumMar 8, 20191 votes

You really want to deal with an Atma's Sion top lane? or Urgot? wait wait, that would help shen.. but..

Critmaster GarenMar 9, 20191 votes

{quoted}

You really want to deal with an Atma's Sion top lane? or Urgot? wait wait, that would help shen.. but..

make it like steraks gage used to be and increase base ad.

i keep saying they changed the wrong item. trigage was too strong, but they should have changed sheen instead of steraks.

if they did that, they could make a bunch of juggernaut items just increase base ad instead of granting bonus ad.

SaevumMar 9, 20191 votes

No, man, you can't just change sheen, there are several reasons, too many reasons why that is a bad idea. Spellblade has always been like it is on trinity, so trinity was not the problem, even less sheen.

Tri-Gage was certainly giving one of the best survivability combo available for the melee rooster and i still think current gage is really good maybe except for the price. Now, if you pair up BC users, Trinity users, current Gage users and Atmas. Atma's core design would need to change or its gonna be abused. Being able to have ~40 armor in the mix would just scream for:

Removal of the item.
Atma's core design unacceptale. So re-design.
Best case scenario: Nerfing the item util is no longer Atma's.

Lets say that we introduce good ol' Atma's right now. Let's say that i pick Olaf, and i build Trinity for the funsies instead of BC (cause no tank guy). Then i go raduins cause i need the extra slow, the armor, the health cause its a heavy AD composition that i am dealing with. Hell, i do not even need the tenacity of steraks cause hey i am brolaf, what is cc? i have anti-crit-extra-damage passive, i have some true damage already in my kit, the enemy is kinda squishy cause they decided to have Yassuo top and i dont feel sorry for that, and i top my build with atma's as 4th~5th item slot.

What do i have total?

~100 armor. ~700 hp. +25 AD. +40 AS. that goes along with my Olaf passive. Plus spellblade that i proc every 2 seconds cause i throw sht that slows you. my Tabis.

+%1.5 AD based on the total health that i have.

As a top laner, all of that above is a big yes, but hey.

Now about your suggestion on Steraks "increase base AD instead of granting bonus AD" this certainly makes scaling AD champions more bearable, and opens chances for buffs for the melee rooster. I am not against it, but i really like current Sterak. Current sterak is spicy man, and i dont want to hit something that Brusiers needed for years. Just enjoy it while we still can.

Critmaster GarenMar 9, 20193 votes

{quoted}

No, man, you can't just change sheen, there are several reasons, too many reasons why that is a bad idea. Spellblade has always been like it is on trinity, so trinity was not the problem, even less sheen.

sure you can change sheen. if you do it correctly you can decouple it from base ad with not much impact on the game.

actually the easiest change would be to calculate sheens damage before base ad increases. this would change nothing about the item but allow us to revert steraks without issue.

otherwise they could just do something like this

15% total ad + 5 damage/lvl (40% less effective for ranged champions)

with sheen and the other items that build from it.

Tri-Gage was certainly giving one of the best survivability combo available for the melee rooster and i still think current gage is really good maybe except for the price. Now, if you pair up BC users, Trinity users, current Gage users and Atmas. Atma's core design would need to change or its gonna be abused. Being able to have ~40 armor in the mix would just scream for:

they tested out atmas reckoning on the pbe and ended up not implementing it because it was "too similar to titanic hydra". which is bullshit. one is an on hit item and scales up auto attacking champions, the other benefits casters.

I am not against it, but i really like current Sterak. Current sterak is spicy man, and i dont want to hit something that Brusiers needed for years. Just enjoy it while we still can.

steraks needs to change back, because now it benefits skirmishers and divers more than juggernauts.

these champions already have their own kit inbuilt mobility and outplay tools to avoid teamfight aoe dodge enemy burst and just stack steraks on top of it. when champions like jax, irelia, camille etc. become as tanky as darius and deal the same damage, there is no reason to play juggers anymore. they just become more versatile versions of juggernauts.

champions like fiora and yasuo shouldnt be able to have that much burst resistance, while amping up their damage.

skirmishers already have their own safety net. they should go for item 3026

SaevumMar 10, 20191 votes

Sorry the delay, had to check.

So Atma's Reckoning has: 30 AR, 30 MR, +25 AD and 0.5-2.5% total HP as Bonus AD.

All of that for 2,900g.

-Armor value is like 600g. -MR value is like 540g. -AD value is like 875g.

2015 gold. Raw stats.

Now, about the passive, its value decreases if its something between 4-8 secs in combat to reach cap. However if it's like 1-4 secs in combat that would have been sexy. Still kinda expensive if you ask me that is, being near the 3k requirement.

I don't know how can someone reach the conclusion that this item (without active) was similar to Titanic Hydra. in total dps? maybe because it has an extra setting attached? a requirement to reach the 2.5% cap? in how many seconds?

Also, the best stat is armor, so i would have changed 30 AR to 45 AR. MR reduced from 30 to 25.

Changes, gold value:

-AR - 750g -MR - 450g -AD - 875g same.

2,075g. went from 2015g (raw stats) to 2075g (raw stats). 60g~

This new Atma's Reckoning that was on PBE certainly is an interesting version. Old Atma's Impaler never offered MR, it offered Crit instead. And also was certainly cheaper, way more cheaper and the game was not as "different" as it is now.

The Sheen change

Total ad? damage per level? so this prototype sheen gives mana, has a 2 secs passive, cooldown, and scales with itself? That's 5 flat ad right?

MankeyMadnessMar 9, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0UQTbqIO,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-03-07T20:34:10.637+0000)

where is my atmas?

where is my revert on steraks?

theyre adding a lot of shit for on hit carries, that juggers cant use, but juggernaut items like steraks gage are used by so many other champions as core items, including mobile skirmishers and divers who shouldnt build this item every game.

are currently used to greater effect by champions like etc. than the champions they were targeted at. when are juggers going to be actually significantly tankier than these guys?

Steraks was absolutely designed with Irelia and her counterparts (all female top laners not named Quinn and Illaoi are basically the same champion...) in mind more than say, Olaf or Wukong. Reverting it just makes the item too good on Tri users and mediocre for those who don't use it.

Removal of Atmas Reckoning is just disgusting. No clue why they did that

Critmaster GarenMar 9, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Steraks was absolutely designed with Irelia and her counterparts (all female top laners not named Quinn and Illaoi are basically the same champion...) in mind more than say, Olaf or Wukong. Reverting it just makes the item too good on Tri users and mediocre for those who don't use it.

Removal of Atmas Reckoning is just disgusting. No clue why they did that

the item was designed for darius, garen, morde, illaoi, olaf, udyr and other slow fighters who dont have the mobility to dodge teamfight aoe but have to be in the middle of the enemy team to do shit.

for everyone else it wasnt supposed to ever be more than a situational defensive item. irelia, jax, fiora, kled and divers and similar champions shouldnt use the item as well as they do, as part of their core itemization.

turning the item into bonus ad was a huge fuck up. it was made as a base ad increase on purpose because juggers tend to scale with total ad while all those other champions abilities scale with bonus ad.

LordGeovanniMar 10, 20191 votes

Steraks was designed for Melee fighters in General because you cant dodge Spells in melee range. despite Jax And Irelia having dashes you have to dash directly to the enemy you cant survive jumping to other things instead of focusing the enemy champion.

Critmaster GarenMar 10, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Steraks was designed for Melee fighters in General because you cant dodge Spells in melee range. despite Jax And Irelia having dashes you have to dash directly to the enemy you cant survive jumping to other things instead of focusing the enemy champion.

no it wasnt. it was literally an anti burst item for juggernauts that was added with the juggernaut update, because their win condition is to get into the middle of the enemy team and then stay there, as champions without mobility.

other fighters were supposed to have access to it as a situational defensive tool, but were never meant to have it as a core item and use it better than juggernauts.

this was all explained in the blog post, and by riots devs with the juggernaut update back then.

jax and irelia have their own inbuilt tools to deal with teamfight aoe. they can either jump out of it, or leap on the source of the damage to interrupt it. jax can use leap strike and counterstrike to react to Velkoz MissFortune ults and similar abilities. irelia can leap to a different target to dodge it, interrupt with her e from a distance or use her w.

juggernauts have to just kindof sit there and take it. you cant just walk out of a velkoz ult when youre slowed by it, or get out of kennens ult without a mobility tool.

juggernauts only way to deal with these abilities is to tank through them, and thats the entire point of steraks. thats also why the item scales with base ad and initially increased champion base ad instead of granting bonus ad.

because juggernauts have the highest base ad values in the game, so theyre supposed to get the most stat value out of the item. but their abilities also tend to scale with total ad instead of bonus ad. so it was supposed to amp up their abilities without being too much of an attractive option for skirmishers, assassins and marksmen.

now since riot changed steraks gage to a bonus ad increase you have champions like Fiora integrate this item into her core build and she became impossible to fight for juggernauts after a certain point, because she stacks the items burst resistance onto her own outplay tools. the same goes for many other skirmishers and divers.

Jax Irelia Kled Camille Fiora Yasuo Riven and other highly mobile fighters just become impossible to deal with by juggers, because theyre integrating jugger items into their builds and stack their defense onto their own versatile kits.

LordGeovanniMar 10, 20191 votes

I have already said that the problem with using Leap strike and Irelia Q to Jump to other targets is 1 you need other targets around and 2 it drops your damage and thus time to kill against the high damage enemy trying to kill you.

jax and irelia have their own inbuilt tools to deal with teamfight aoe.

so do juggernauts they have damage resistance to negate most of the damage or healing in kit to give them back damage from what they took.

RebonackMar 7, 20193 votes

I love it.

Add a Recurve Bow upgrade path for Wit's and Madred's while we're at it. Then remove Phantom Hit from Rageblade.

Trying to make OnHit builds compete directly with AD/Crit has always been a horrible idea. They're either useless or busted. OnHit items should be items for folks who want a side of durability with their sustained damage.

SeenanMar 9, 20194 votes

{quoted}

I love it.

Add a Recurve Bow upgrade path for Wit's and Madred's while we're at it. Then remove Phantom Hit from Rageblade.

Trying to make OnHit builds compete directly with AD/Crit has always been a horrible idea. They're either useless or busted. OnHit items should be items for folks who want a side of durability with their sustained damage.

I second the removal of Phantom Hit. Fuck that mechanic. Breaks so many champions.

RebonackMar 9, 20192 votes

{quoted}

I second the removal of Phantom Hit. Fuck that mechanic. Breaks so many champions.

That seems to be a common sentiment.

And this is coming from a Kog one-trick.

Is Phantom Hit strong on Kog?

Hell yes.

Does it warp his kit and prevent him from getting buffs?

HELL YES.

Does it prevent new, cool OnHit items from being added to the game out of fear of Phantom Hit (and to a lesser degree Hurricane) busting them?

HELL YES.

OnHit stuff shouldn't be getting multiplicative effects like this. They should be flat bonuses focusing on resilience, moderate sustained damage, and mid-game dominance. Trying to make OnHit stuff compete directly with Crit isn't wise. OnHit items should have their own niche.

boricCentaur1Mar 7, 20193 votes

It is not good and makes the game more boring wits end is fun and unique since it steals mr and removing that is not good in my opinion.

AlzonMar 7, 20192 votes

This item is pretty much perfect for Shyvana . Since it’s both armor and MR, the lack of HP is less impactful (true damage is still a bit of a concern, but not by much). Movespeed and Tenacity, so Tabi or Swifties can be taken instead of Mercs, too? Sign me up!

SukishooMar 8, 20192 votes

Zyphyr Return, and Wits End Change

What about that sad excuss of a returning madreds bloodrazor? Taking tier 3 finished items, stripping their stats and turning them in to components? No thanks.

OleandervineMar 8, 20192 votes

How is it going to make Yi or Jax stronger? They don't really build Wit's End to begin with, so why would they build this version? Would the defense and tenacity somehow be more relevant than things like Rageblade, BoRK, or Shojin? I think if they DID build this, they'd be taking a bit of a hit to their damage output.

hrooza dota Mar 8, 20192 votes

it is a good option in late game if you needed tankness imo since they will kinda insta stack it and get almost a item 3193 defense while adding a good amount of magic damage/attack speed/ item 3111 effect so you could use anyother boot.

i dont know if they will use it as 5th~6th item but it look like a decent choice

jocomotionMar 8, 20192 votes

TahmKench item 3748 item 3172 item 3047 item 3742 item 3065 item 3083 Top lane with grasp and legend Alacrity “Their despair is the seasoning”

Though tbh it SOUNDS too strong, I’d consider removing either the bonus magic damage or the stacking armor/MR and keeping/slightly buffing whichever is left so it doesn’t cover ALL bases.

RebonackMar 9, 20192 votes

Pondering this a bit further... Go Trinity Force style.

item 1042 + item 1031 For stacking armor + item 1057 For stacking MR + item 1011 For a stacking shield

Combine them all together to get a slightly amped version off all the combined effects.

Or combine the component items with a Recurve Bow for three further items. The Armor item could steal attack speed, the MR item could steal magic resist, and the HP item could steal health based on OnHit damage dealt.

Then just remove Phantom Hit from Rageblade to prevent rampant abuse (replace it with a hybrid magic/physical OnHit effect) and we're golden.

The Highest NoonMar 7, 20191 votes

I like it. I feel that it might add a bit too much Tenacity to the game, though.

PopcornBunniMar 7, 20192 votes

Won't matter when the vast bulk of CC is in the form of 1-2 second knockups.

IllabetheMar 8, 20192 votes

Because that reworked Morgana totally has Knockups.

The Highest NoonMar 8, 20192 votes

That updated Morgana definitely has a 3-second snare tho and that shit is insane lmao

SukishooMar 8, 20191 votes

She's always had such.

The Highest NoonMar 8, 20191 votes

So are you or are you not agreeing that tenacity is necessary

IllabetheMar 9, 20191 votes

Except her entire damage kit revolves around that CC, whereas other champs who have substantially long CC do not. For example, Neeko's kit doesn't actually revolve around her 3 sec E root. It's stand-alone powerful without it.

If you Tenacity Morgana, she basically loses 40% of her potential damage, because W's damage is almost entirely wasted, and R is limited to only a few times a game.

I know you don't like CC, but Morg's is one of the slowest moving projectiles in the game and is also single target. It's weak at accuracy at any point of the game that is not fought in a straight line and even pros still miss 40% of the time with it, simply because it's more about enemy skill level than actually aiming/predicting, which simply isn't the case for many other CC.

The Highest NoonMar 9, 20191 votes

Don't forget, her ult gives her a movement speed boost now

IllabetheMar 9, 20191 votes

Toward enemies. Which is useless if you Zhonya's.... and not like she had much trouble landing ult to begin with.

The Highest NoonMar 10, 20191 votes

There's also the rune that gives movement speed after you ult, but tbh I've yet to use Zhonya's with Morgana lol

LordGeovanniMar 10, 20191 votes

I dont know how you waste morg w damage when you cna just replace it after the enemy moves its not as if you can stack pools and thus stack damage.

Daddy ReTaricMar 9, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Highest Noon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0UQTbqIO,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-08T15:05:38.005+0000)

That updated Morgana definitely has a 3-second snare tho and that shit is insane lmao

She always had 3 second snare... that's not new. Hell she used to have 4 second snare in the early developement of the game..

The Highest NoonMar 10, 20191 votes

Doesn't change the fact that it's there lol

LordGeovanniMar 10, 20191 votes

I dont care if Zephyr comes back with no tenacity at all. put the power back into where it actually matters. I just dont want them to take out its aggressive nature for this. This item is by no means bad but it also shits on why i wanted to have zephyr back int he game so that i can catch ranged champions with me melee champion and kill them through all their free passive movement speed sure i can catch them with this but the amount of defense is pitiful and wont do anything and its losing its ad so i cant call them either. Old zephyr had shit for ad and needed a buff but thats really all.

PopcornBunniMar 7, 20191 votes

More option for bruisers wowie zowie

Fucking seriously though, the last time tanks got any new item changes was the 7.4 update that gutted item 3068 item 3065 item 3742 item 3143 , took away item 3102 , and created the monstrosity of Chogath item 3193 while no one else can use that PoS item.

Critmaster GarenMar 7, 20191 votes

{quoted}

More option for bruisers wowie zowie

Fucking seriously though, the last time tanks got any new item changes was the 7.4 update that gutted , took away , and created the monstrosity of while no one else can use that PoS item.

tanks didnt suffer from the item nerfs. the tank update increased their base defensive stats and the reworks increased their kit inherent resistance steroids, and their resistance scalings to compensate. so after these changes, tank items were as good on them as they were before the update despite providing lower stats.

the entire point of the tank update was to make these items shitty for everyone else, to kill off builds like tank ekko, tank akali and tank fizz.

PopcornBunniMar 7, 20191 votes

And builds like tank poppy, tank shen, tank nautilus

Critmaster GarenMar 7, 20192 votes

{quoted}

And builds like tank poppy, tank shen, tank nautilus

i dont remember enough of poppys or nautilus development after the changes, but shen is clearly in the state hes in because of pro play. thats an entirely different story.

hes godlike in the LCS and garbage in solo play.

Düff McWhalenMar 9, 20191 votes

Where my Heart of Gold rito?

LordGeovanniMar 10, 20191 votes

Elisa's miracle much better i dont care for the summoner spell altering but Ghost and Teleport could use that to get back to their not gimped forms (lower tp cooldown and channel time. and ghost starts at a higher point 40% and possibly ends at 65%) to make up for the change from hp5 to % base hp% same for mp5 they could be 250% of each or 200% mp5 be 800 gold cost. If they add those 2 spell augments 1050 would be a good price. Of course it must have its consume passive.

taleofsonataMar 9, 20191 votes

Making wits end stronger for Melee is stupid. Why would melee have it stronger? Kayle Teemo are literally the 2 ranged who use it also Kog maw. If Kog maw would abuse it too hard, just nerf kog.

LordGeovanniMar 10, 20191 votes

Thats dumb the reason melee's dont use it is because they cant afford to waste gold on an item not worth the slot they have to build the most expensive items just to survive Shyvanna and jax would love Wits end (as it currently is this new item they would like that too but it takes away alot just to make wits end a component without making the end build actually stronger because you are losing a ton of damage and losing the enemy shred.) but they will die because the cheap item much like cheap things usually are (unless they are for mages) arent worth it. ranged champions can get away with that because range is a built in defensive steroid while being an offensive steroid at the same time.

LordGeovanniMar 9, 20191 votes

No one wants a weaker Wits end. No one would build wits end if it loses attack speed and only i build it anyway and i get flamed by my team even when im whats allowing them to deal damage because im giving the enemy negative magic resist. They just need to give it 300 hp and give other magic resist items better magic resist and hp.

Zephyr was a Attack speed ad item with movment speed the main reason people want it is so that fighters have so way to catch the Ranged champions and that was before they had shit ton of passive movement speed.

RebonackMar 10, 20191 votes

{quoted}

No one wants a weaker Wits end.

I do!

Irelia Bot and I had been bugging Riot to turn Wit's into a component item more or less exactly like this for years now.

LordGeovanniMar 10, 20191 votes

They need to make a stronger attack speed magic resist and attack speed armor, attack speed health items. after that they can make one item with shitty amounts of defenses (dont care if its comparable to what already exists its shitty amounts of defenses just like whats in game.) and some attack speed. They also gonna remove the magic resist shred which is the main reason i liked it on ap bruisers and nerf the amount of magic resist it gives via its passive.

RebonackMar 10, 20191 votes

{quoted}

They need to make a stronger attack speed magic resist and attack speed armor, attack speed health items. after that they can make one item with shitty amounts of defenses (dont care if its comparable to what already exists its shitty amounts of defenses just like whats in game.) and some attack speed. They also gonna remove the magic resist shred which is the main reason i liked it on ap bruisers and nerf the amount of magic resist it gives via its passive.

They should release two items that build out of the new Madred's and Wit's. One being the new Zypher, and the other two being a combine with Recurve bow. Wit's V2 gets better MR stealing and Madred's V2 gets 4% max HP magic damage OnHit.

And then Phantom Hit gets taken behind the shed and shot.

Everyone is happy.

LordGeovanniMar 10, 20191 votes

Again im not against this item im just against this item being zephyr as it shuts down a no crit ad item with attack speed. they need to add buff magic resist items and add about 300 hp to wits end if it built out of item 3801 that would be good I dont think that wits end needs more MR stealing Just more Defensive stats to stablize it before it gets to MR stealing. Im also not trying to make it the out right best item thats why i think item 3194 item 3001 item 3065 need better mr and hp and riot needs to give tanks back a version of item 3102 and not have it fall off on being damaged.