Damage in League is kinda unruly, here's my 2 cents

Rude Name·Aug 7, 2017·66 votes·2,434 views

Mages should be gated by ~~mana/energy~~ CDR. ~~Dota does this well~~. Skills for mages should be thought about, not spammed.

Assassins should be gated by delays. Zed's ult, LeBlanc's passive, Fizz's ult, etc. Not like Rengar's or Talon's ult.

ADCs should be gated by time. They shouldn't be able to burst as well as the other classes, instead, focus on sustained damage.

Tanks should be gated by clarity. Their damage should be easy to see coming, but not necessarily easy to dodge, e.g. Galio R, Maokai R, etc.

Supports should be gated by allies. Supports should excel when they can work THROUGH allies, not necessarily working FOR the allies. Stuff like Zilean Q, Lulu EQ combo, etc.

Thoughts? I'm still trying to get orientated around this.

EDIT: This is very simplified. I also changed mages from mana/energy to CD, because, well, Sire Hippington is right.

89 Comments

Sire HippingtonAug 7, 201718 votes

I don't agree with mages and the heavy mana gateing. Obiously some kits need gateing either just for lane or even later on, but in general, heavy gateing through mana leads to a very passive and boring playstyle as you only comit your preccious mana if you really are sure to get something from it. The insane mana gateing is one off the things i dislike most in dota. You also shouldn't forget that in dota, even mages have well scaleing AAs, some of them like lina even have pretty huge dps, so they can afford to hold back their spells. Imo mages should rather work like in S2, when you actually had to decide between cdr for dps and raw burst damage. They should be more gated by CDs and opportunity

Assasins imo should not be designed about 100-0 combos, wether it's delayed or not, it always leads to a binary scenario where either the victim or the assasin gets rather frustraited(Zed always had the delay, and by times was the most banned champ in the game even while not op). Imo they should focus more on hit n run, beeing able to unload decent damage rather fast, and then disengage for a second round soon after, while skirmishers should have an ok opening burst, but good dps and stickiness aswell as the means to avoid some damage so they can use their dps.

Fully agree on adc, they need more rampup mechaincs and shouldn't have burst mechanics like shiv on their dps items. It's ok if they can built ad/cdr/pen and become ad-casters that have burst/poke, but they need to sacrifice dps for that. I also really dislike current huricane, crit+aoe should not go together. Old hurricane was a lot better design, you could go for on-hit builts with it for aoe damage but loose out in the crit scaleing vs singletaregts, so there was more of a tradeof. They also should have to sacrifice a bit more damage for survivabillity than they currently do, and lifesteal items should NEVER have anti burst/anti cc on them, they should counter their own counter. But mostly, crit needs to go or geting reworled into something else, but the current RNG has no place in a competetive game. Pure luck should never decide wether you win a trade/fight or not.

Supports imo should be less designed as slaves to the adc and just the adc but rather more as supports for the entier team, with maybe some beeing more focused on supporting adc, some on helping melee fighters and some on boosting mages. I also do think that (some)supports should be allowed to be somewaht selfsufficient, especial earlyer in the game. It really helps strategic diversity if there are supportive champs that can perform in a sololane while getting his best perormance once he joins up with others. And yes, i'm all for supports working more through others rather than for them with stuff like namies W or Ivern E.

Tanks should have less damage+cc, right now they bring to much of both. Befor the tankreworks slapped aditional cc on every tank, it was fine for them to do the damage they did, but now it's just to much output overall. They also could use a clearer focuse on either engage/dive or peeling. Prettymuch all tanks right now can do both so there is little varity. I also think that hard cc shouldn't be as plenty and spamable as it is. It needs to be either gated by high CDs and/or by Opportunity/Conditions. Maokai spaming a strong aoe knockbak every 3 sec or Zac haveing 3 displaces in his kit with not to high cd on two of them is just to much. It's ok for a tank to be disruptive, but there always is a line that shouldn't get crossed, and the old tanks imo were well within line, they had good cc to be disruptive, but weren't overbearing with it.

NyarlathοtepAug 7, 20173 votes

Tanks should have less damage+cc, right now they bring to much of both.

Wut. Tanks bring dmg? And too much at that? Sorry but what? And no cho is not a tank. He is something unique.

5000000000000000Aug 7, 20177 votes

Tanks have high base damages so they can trade in lane, push minions, be a threat in teamfight, etc.

It's definitely not to the level of assassins or ADCs, but tanks definitely do a decent amount of damage.

NyarlathοtepAug 7, 20176 votes

They need to have those base dmg or else the wouldnt be able to lane. Its not unbearable. Their dmg is relative only at early.

LimrickAug 7, 20172 votes

I mean I just started playing Maokai, and even though I don't do like massive damage, most tanks have low enough cooldowns that you can just whack people down in a reasonable time frame.

NyarlathοtepAug 7, 20172 votes

They cant do it consistently though. Even with catalyst.

LordGeovanniAug 9, 20171 votes

tank cooldowns usually longer than other classess mages assassins adcs

LimrickAug 9, 20171 votes

As someone who plays Lux a lot, Maokai's Q feels absurdly spammy. Which tanks have long cooldowns? I play a lot of Poppy, Sejuani and Sion too, and they all have relatively low cooldowns.

LordGeovanniAug 9, 20171 votes

tanks usually have 1 short cooldown spell and 2 longs and an extremely long ult. and even then its not that much less than any mage if it even touches a mage cooldowns. tanks also usually have gimped damage or cc on said short cooldown spell unlike mages dont usually have low damage on their spammable spells and they have longer range to leverage it.

Ariel the CruelAug 8, 20174 votes

Riot inverts base stats depending on how champions are supposed to build. That's why traditionally Tanks often have higher offensive base stats, while squishies have higher defensive base stats.

That way tanks are capable of trading/farming while they build resists. And carries don't get 1-shot while they build AD/AP.

LordGeovanniAug 9, 20171 votes

so squshies arent squishy and tanks are..... makes sense.

GayFluffyUnicornAug 8, 20171 votes

tanks deal bruiser dmg right now or since forever while being more tanky and bring more CC.

NyarlathοtepAug 8, 20171 votes

No? After laning phase their dmg becomes irrelevant UNLESS you have fallen behind.

zero356Aug 8, 20176 votes

For mages, I would say just remove CDR. As it is now, getting to 40% is a given, not a choice. I'm fine with not mana gating them. They're mages, using spells is the point. But missing should have a consequence and they should have to decide to use their spells for one thing or another, not have enough CDR for both. Unless they sacrificed power to do both.

For Assassins, I'd argue that over the course of 20 seconds (which is an absurd time for any fight in league at the moment) DPS should be equal to a mage or adc. But mages and ADC do the same DPS over that 20 seconds; assasins do 60-80% in the first 5-10 seconds, and 20-40% is the back half. I'm using exaggerated times to get the point across better. And because I think that's closer to the time fights should actually take. Assassin v mage/ADC obviously shouldn't be that long, but I'd argue ADC/Mage/Tank v. Assassin should have that as the extreme end of the average time-frame for a fight EDIT: Mostly the extreme range for Tank v. damage fights. Assassin DPS should be generally singe target.

No Comment on ADC Or Supports

But Tanks. Unfortunately, Riot wants tanks to damage despite that being the main issue anytime we hit a tank meta. Honestly, tank meta should be great. I'd argue it is the default most balanced state. Except Riot still wants tanks to kill people in the same time-frame as other champions.

Going by before, a fight or duel with a tank should always be significantly longer. My basic opinion for tanks is that if the tank can't realize he's losing and actively run away from most things damage wise, there's a problem. Is not killing him annoying? Yes. But guess what: he's not defending anything anymore. Tanks are generally geared toward the strategy part of the game, not the mechanics part.

Speaking of defending, do not even get me started on towers

Of course, that's just my ... hmmm ... I'm going to say 5 cents; it's a little much for just 2.

RalanrAug 8, 20173 votes

The problem with tanks wanting longer fights is that it's not actually that great for them unless they have some sort of sustain to outlast their target.

Otherwise they're going to fight a losing battle because they can only take so many rotations before they die unless they actually can fight their target with the damage to kill. It shouldn't be one shot levels or super quick (unless the enemy is really behind).

zero356Aug 8, 20171 votes

That is the point, yes Fights against tanks should take longer because both sides will be dealing less damage But both should be able to win, dependent on how the people play

But Riot generally makes it so fights with tanks are only slightly longer precisely because they give them more damage. It's a dumb balance idea based on the assumption that tanks players want to kill things. That's what bruisers are for, most tank players just want to tank, and everyone else can fuck off for the sake of balance.

Tank v. Tank really shouldn't end in death unless one side is extremely stupid

RalanrAug 8, 20173 votes

So you're only arguing for tank vs tank fights should last long?

And I won't speak for all tank players, but I want to do more than just tank. I want my laning phase to not be huddling under my tower because any trade will result in me wasting mana on someone I can't kill but who can kill me.

zero356Aug 8, 20171 votes

Yes, and partially because you can't balance the rest of it without having this be the outcome

Point 2: Tanking is also CC, engage, peel, etc. Damage is the primary thing that should be absent

But that's the key that Riot isn't getting You shouldn't huddle under turret. Fighting you in lane should be a continual process. If they stay at long enough and well enough, then that should force you off. You should be able to counter if you want to and put back ... something (not going to saying who wins the fight, and ideally it would be skill based) But it's not a once or twice and done thing. It's a do you care enough about denying me to keep fighting me and can you do it while still CSing. And can I make you miss CS while fighting back Regen and pots are also factors to consider

The problem is laning usually comes from runes (even in the new system), so being able to shrug off your opponent for a significant time would likely create issues. Carries (specifically late game carries) would take them and scale with CS, not caring about the loss of power later. Unless they create enough later power in runes to compensate.

It's an interesting problem but the basic idea is that tanks should slow things down, at least in regards to themselves.

As a note, I'm assuming were talking about top lane, though the issues (and there solutions) could spill over and create problems in other lanes.

LordGeovanniAug 9, 20171 votes

damage should not be absent from a tanks kit if you cant knock Ahri for a chunk of damage who has no defensive items then hitting a Garen will never cause a scratch you cant call champions squishy and expect them to face tank tanks because you want tanks to do little damage. they are doing little damage it looks large because you are building no defensive or health items to midigate the effectiveness of it. you cant be super safe champion and take no damage because you want to ignore a whole class of champion

zero356Aug 9, 20171 votes

That's where the number balance comes in And I think you may misunderstand or we have different ideas an can agree to disagree

Of course Garen can kill her. Just not that fast. And she can't kill him that fast I expect Ahri v. ADC to last 5 seconds max I expect DPS/Mage/Assasin v Tank to last 5 second minimum (Again relative numbers)

The offshoot of this is that since it takes longer, and the damage is less, both have the option to just run away, and theoretically lose an objective (assuming the other player isn't stupid; if they are, they should lose or make it up by being good enough to finish the kill)

LordGeovanniAug 9, 20171 votes

im not talking about garen versus arhi (its tanks versus arhi ) vs (tanks versus Garen) I see what you are saying but none of those last as long as you say. people complain that tanks kill adcs too fast but adcs have no defense and the though the tanks can kill an adc in 3 seconds they most likely have a damage item instead of being full tank and people dont factor in the 5+ seconds it takes for a tank to reach an adc. A tanks fight starts long before they touch anyone. and tanks rarely fare 5 seconds now you need a built in sheild and that item that gimps your damage item 3193

LordGeovanniAug 9, 20171 votes

all players want to kill things tanks supports adcs. same way every adc has to have some sort of super strong slow and or speed boost or dash

zero356Aug 9, 20171 votes

Over generalization Granted, I did it too But when I play a tank and a support (and even more carry champs), I could care jack all about killing people Towers, sure, but that can affected separately from champion damage

GripaAviaraAug 7, 20175 votes

The current issue is that the game's too fast in combat. I barely have time for anything, is all reflex and luck

MLDzXnRRRAug 8, 20172 votes

{quoted}

The current issue is that the game's too fast in combat. I barely have time for anything, is all reflex and luck

10 or 15 seconds = teamfights mid-lategame. Sometimes I don't what is happening or where my character is when everyone starts shooting visual fx.

Blades of NavoriAug 7, 20174 votes

I agree with this. I believe some mages should be able to spam, that's what makes Ryze special, but I feel like high-burst champions such as Syndra and Ahri who burst you in just a couple seconds should have high costs and high damage and offer some sort of utility as well for a few spells.

NineTailedMysticAug 7, 20171 votes

Ahri's Mana costs are pretty decent, only thing that's cheap is W at 55 Mana iirc. Q is 65-85 based on rank, E is 85 flat, R is 100.

DanjengAug 8, 20176 votes

That's true, but once nearly any mage gets Morellonomicon, they can spam away. Ahri is no exception.

I'm not against spell spamming. Certain mages such as Cassiopeia, Karthus, and Ryze should be able to do so as it's their fundamental gameplay. They actually have to itemize multiple mana items though.

Rude NameAug 8, 20172 votes

I think abilities should either have CDs or mana costs. Spam is good, it makes laning phase less boring, but it needs to have a drawback e.g. mana.

JmmanAug 8, 20172 votes

Well look at fiddles cost fear (65) drain (80 - 120) dark wind (50 - 90) Ult (100)

so without looking at ults (can't compare them) fiddles damage spells are higher cost. Now they also do less damage and require non-moving / not interrupted. So an immobile mages does less damage and has higher cost.

Where is the trade off in spells? She is mobile with more damage and less cost.

W is like dark wind when will hit champs first. Now this is different than fiddles because he has to drain to hit them over because it will lock on to non-hit targets first unless they are drain. damage if 65-145 vs 40 - 140 that will 100% hit 2 more times for 30%. = 64 - 224 plus 5% more ap. You have to bounce at less 2 times to = the damage. Well maybe if Q at 40 - 140 x 2 damage would be better. But is hits everything in he path correct. then add true damage plus movement all for 65 - 85 mana? well less than fiddles drain that they have to be standing still. Heck that is 2 - 3 secs of drain to = the damage at an extra 50% of the cost???

it should be Q = 65 - 105 w = 55 - 75 E = 100 (maybe 90 have to play with numbers) R = 100

This would go a long way to balance and farming on some mids.

edit and don't cry that you can get a full 5 secs drain / crow bounce off on a good play with not a real come back with all the CC and mobility in the game.

NineTailedMysticAug 8, 20171 votes

That's a result of Fiddle's archaic design.

JmmanAug 8, 20172 votes

No the boards tell me he is op and on the fence of being broken. But the point still stand the Meta mages all have lower cost and more damage. So the questions if buff 20 some mages or nerf a hand full mana cost.

NineTailedMysticAug 8, 20171 votes

Well if you want to dumpster Ahri, sure find a way to implement those Mana costs.

JmmanAug 8, 20172 votes

dumpster or brought to a fair level because that is all about perspective.

NineTailedMysticAug 8, 20171 votes

105 on Q is absolutely absurd.

LordGeovanniAug 9, 20171 votes

only because she has to spam it so much

FakeGravityAug 7, 20174 votes

i think the current issue is that while adcs are gated by time i a way, so are tanks, so in a game where tanks can really tank at all early game, it creates a situation where adcs look like they do alot of damage i be more happy in 2021, when adcs are glorified turret killers because turrets are so strong that tanks take several waves to kill them

Rude NameAug 8, 20172 votes

All items need a rework imo. There's too many generalist items, or items with generalist stats. Runaans, RFC and Shiv are all very similar, and I believe they shouldn't be.

FilDaFunkAug 8, 20173 votes

Mages have 2 types of damage: Burst and sustain. Burst should be gated by CDR, since you have to wait to burst down again. Sustained damage is gated by mana - if you want to maintain high damage, it costs a lot of mana. Think Swain Anivia Cassiopeia .

What you said about assassins seems horribly wrong. They should be gated by enemies' ability to peel and their positioning, so by all means should be able to demolish an out of position carry BEFORE they get a chance to run/heal.

ADCs once had to farm for 20 mins before having good damage, then also had to position correctly to avoid assassins.

Tanks should bring cc to allow for teammate damage, not have much damage of their own.

Supports either: Babysit their adc to allow them to farm - poke down enemy to take pressure off adc and create an advantage, or (like Alistar Leona Blitzcrank ) be able to engage onto adc. Peel/engage late game - through cc, utility or shields and heals.

RalanrAug 8, 20171 votes

Tanks need some damage to push, trade, and over all function in top and jungle.

Otherwise they just go top to die.

DengedenAug 7, 20172 votes

If the weaknesses are defined too clearly and champions have no leeway, that means the strengths need to be absolutely absurd. At which point, why not just play DotA? If you don't like that a mage can still dent you after you didn't capitalize on their CDs? If you don't like some assassins' telegraphed burst? If you don't like that ADCs will kill you if you let them walk forward? If you don't like ... which tank isn't gated by clarity? Which champion isn't? If you don't like that a support can, circumstantially, fight back if you mindlessly dive the ADC?

deadlychuckAug 8, 20172 votes

Mage are gated by their mana early game, but are generally expected to build around it. Which is actually a very useful power control tool. If a mage is designed to need to build 3 mana recovery items to avoid being gated by their mana, then they're buying non-optimal damage items.

Mana is still a power gate, but one that i think shouldn't exist only on mages. All champions should get some degree of limited resource in the early game that they need to compensate for in their build.

NyarlathοtepAug 7, 20171 votes

Mages should be gated by mana

And they are, unless you are annie.

Ariel the CruelAug 8, 20173 votes

https://dawngate.gamepedia.com/media/dawngate.gamepedia.com/1/15/ZalgusProfile.png?version=08c3de081bff0730181eb4f374d9d5ba RiP

Rude NameAug 8, 20171 votes

.....noooooOOOOOOO

Ariel the CruelAug 8, 20172 votes

https://dawngate.gamepedia.com/media/dawngate.gamepedia.com/b/bf/Sakari_Avatar.png?version=738ee6dc4da91002efed7a4243f492a4 What is "mana" anyways? XD

Sun Wu RyuumokuAug 8, 20171 votes

Assassins should be gated by delays. Zed's ult, LeBlanc's passive, Fizz's ult, etc. Not like Rengar's or Talon's ult.

lel :

Rengo wasn't and isn't an assassin (gameplay wise)
its more fair to be killed by talon than Zed & leblanc bs.

MLDzXnRRRAug 8, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ryuumoku no koke,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0Q4szWyi,comment-id=000f,timestamp=2017-08-08T08:56:05.048+0000)

lel :

Rengo wasn't and isn't an assassin (gameplay wise)

its more fair to be killed by talon than Zed & leblanc bs.

It is easier to avoid getting killed by Zed than getting killed by Talon, Kha, Rengar or LB.

LoliKnightAug 8, 20171 votes

Rengo wasn't and isn't an assassin (gameplay wise)

I'll still be ROTFLing when I get your reply

Sun Wu RyuumokuAug 8, 20171 votes

u can do it. But u have a bad understanding of assassins if u think old rengar was an assassins with his poor mobility. OS isn't what's make x champ an assassins or not.