Shyvana Gameplay Mini-Update Followup

Mira Arya Enthe··28 votes·2,848 views

My opinions on the Shyvana Gameplay Mini-Update. I gave it a few months to really sink my fangs into it, and here are my thoughts afterwords as a Shyvana main.

For starters. I feel it was a success! http://img11.deviantart.net/d203/i/2011/223/f/2/happy_dragon_is_happy_by_bobbydazzl3r-d467t6l.jpg Happy Dragon is happy! But it was a limited success. https://dragonlaffs.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/dl-confused-dragon.jpg Don't get all worried though. It was still a success at what it was aimed to do.

#What was the goal of Shyvana's mini-update? Well, it seems the goal of these updates in general is to take champions who are not huge offenders of bad design, and improve them enough so that they have the tools and numbers to be viable and fun for their players, without being too toxic for enemies and allies to play around.

Shyvana was an incredibly bad design in S5. But not so bad that Riot had to Azir or Kalista her. They just nerfed her to a point that she wasn't overrunning everyone with numbers and flattening the jungle far too fast. This was further extended by the recent removal of Shyvana's 20% bonus damage to monsters on her W, a crutch that was propping her up but also holding back her power budget.

So to make her viable and fun Riot touched base with her on the Gameplay update that came through last year. What exactly were the changes?

#Changes. 1: Shyvana's free 5/10/15/20 Magic Resist and Armor(double in dragon form) was removed from her kit. It was too much free power for no reason. Instead Shyvana starts with 5 Bonus Armor and Magic Resist so she retains her level 1 power and then gets an additional 5 for each dragon her team has killed. She also now gets 10% bonus damage to dragons. These changes are great, as long as Dragon remains a major objective I approve of them. They give her a high when she is high and enemies can counterplay her by denying her dragons and knowing she will go for them. But it isn't too crippling when behind or too dominant when ahead. The only problem comes from if Dragon becomes less valuable this entire passive is nerfed. While the doubled Armor and Magic Resist in Dragon Form was lost she gained a heal on her ult so fair is fair. To equal the old human form bonuses Shyvana must have 1 dragon by level 6, 2 by level 11 and 3 by level 16. Shyvana should be getting every dragon so this isn't a problem. Any more than 3 and she gets more out of this passive's resistances than her old one in human form.

2: Shyvana lost her Trail of Embers on her W, instead in Dragon Form it is increased in size based on her ult rank. Bad change in my opinion, Thematically Trail of Embers was amazing, and in gameplay it gave Shyvana that extra bit when retreating from a team fight, passing from front line to back line, or outmaneuvering people during tower dives and split pushing. I would have preferred leaving a flaming trail of destruction over the size increase(which only is there because her model gets bigger now and they don't want Cho'Gath Sunfire cape issues.) But it is what it is. I doubt Riot is reverting on this.

3: Shyvana's E in human form received a nerf on the number of targets it could it, it now stops at the first champion. This is very minor and probably nerfed her by 1% but also raised her skill cap by 1%, as now you have to be selective in who you E and cannot hit multiple champions. I actually prefer it this way. I just wish the human form base impact damage was a tad higher, just a little. This would help her in laning and with poke without boosting jungle much. The AP ratio was also nerfed but who builds AP Shyvana amirite?

4: Shyvana's E in Dragon Form received a massive buff and minor nerf. It went from a Cone AoE that passed over all targets in front of her with impressive range, dealing the same damage as in human form. To a fireball that hits a targeted location or the first champion hit and explodes, dealing damage and leaving fire on the ground for a few seconds that deals more damage. This damage scales with level rather than ability level so maxing E is now pointless. This is a buff overall, it is much more impressive and powerful, it is a nerf in that it moves slower and can be body blocked, I have gotten loads of snipes with the old one and multi-target damage. It is also a minor nerf to her human form E even further as maxing E is now nearly pointless. Other than visual effects the only thing I would prefer they had done differently was that the explosion set people on fire caught in it rather than the ground. It would be great seeing minions and champions alike running around burning in my dragonfyre.

5: Shyvana's ult lost 100 Range. This hurt bad, so many failed wall clears, so many failed ganks and kills at first. After growing accustom to it however it certainly is fair, I think it was fine and wouldn't rebuff it given the choice. Shyvana also lost her doubled passive in dragon form, so less Armor and Magic Resistance. This also was fine. Shyvana has instead gained a small self-heal/max HP increase while in dragon form. On ulting she gains a chunk of health and increased max health, increased max health is mostly a bonus as it boosts her TH and if you use them her Cinderhulk, Warmogs and Undying Grasp. Despite popular belief % HP doesn't get better vs higher amounts of HP, rather it just always takes the same portion of your HP bar so it just doesn't get worse, having higher max HP will make it's number higher value than flat damage, but having higher HP still leaves you with more total HP after the %HP damage to soak everything else. So I don't consider that to be a double edged sword. I am fine with all of these ult changes and approve of them. Especially her size increase.

6: Shyvana's ult is unstoppable! The most important change in this entire rework is that now a giant dragon leaping through the air is no longer stopped by jumping over a Caitlyn trap. Shyvana will still be CC'd when her leap finishes for balance reasons, but it no longer feels awful using her ultimate for engage instead of escape. Combined with an improved hitbox for her drag Shyvana now has more reliable post-6 ganks and better team fighting, permanently removing her from the Tryndamere category of "farm, push and pray" champions.

#Overview of the Rework Shyvana's rework was a success because it gave her a higher powerbudget on the healthy parts of her kit, allowing unhealthy things like her bonus damage to monsters being removed, her W damage and Q damage remaining lower than historical values, free unconditional armor and magic resist. Therefore it added a little more skill to playing her correctly. This means she can be viable without hitting unfair levels of stat check. She is now better at team fighting, better at ganking and better late game. While only sacrificing a little of the bullshit she head. While overall it was a success, there are some things I would have done differently.

#For the Future Some things I would change given the opportunity.

1: Make all of Shyvana's DoT abilities have a 1/4th second tick rate. I hate the unnatural and slopping feeling of Tick... Tick... Tick...

2: Return Trail of Embers to Shyvana's W, even if the damage is drastically reduced, visually and in gameplay it just felt great. A dragon should have a wake of destruction.

3: I would personally make Shyvana's E do a tad more upfront damage and chunk less DoT, but make the DoT stick to enemies struck. It would feel great seeing enemies run around on fire. I am a dragon after all.

4: Slightly nerf W AoE damage, but slightly buff human form E on impact damage by adding an AD ratio. This would put more value on her skillshot and also make laning more possible as she would be able to return harass without charging into the minion wave, taking minion aggro and overpushing. It also makes building AD on her a bit better.

5: Ultimate Fantasy but potentially impossible. I would love it if her Dragon Form had a slowed Attack Speed but each hit was massive. It could be something like "Attack Speed in Dragon Form is fixed at .75(or 1.0), Excess attack speed increases AD and gives on hit effects multiple applications". But... this may be impossible to code, too long of a tooltip or even risk making her too bursty. It is just a fantasy of feeling more massive and dragony.

6: Obviously all of her visuals and audio. See here https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/story-art/JAW55m2s-shyvana-vu

#End Thank you for reading! Overall I consider Shyvana's mini-rework a huge success. She still needs a VU or even a full VGU in the future. But for now she is much better than how she started. I hope after more needy champions get their turn Riot looks at Shyvana again in an attempt to further enhance her dragon/half dragon fantasy, and make her feel more beastly as their amazing new lore did.

With the best of intentions - Mira Arya Enthe.

43 Comments

Sahn Uzal6 votes

5: Ultimate Fantasy but potentially impossible. I would love it if her Dragon Form had a slowed Attack Speed but each hit was massive. It could be something like "Attack Speed in Dragon Form is fixed at .75(or 1.0), Excess attack speed increases AD and gives on hit effects multiple applications". But... this may be impossible to code, too long of a tooltip or even risk making her too bursty. It is just a fantasy of feeling more massive and dragony.

Her being a high AS champion never felt right for me either tbh. In Dragon form atleast, Excuse me, Wyvern form. http://static-cdn.jtvnw.net/emoticons/v1/25/1.0

Mira Arya Enthe5 votes

Wyvern form.

http://t02.deviantart.net/JRoDWTIHZP2hig6U5PEXP9dYnc0=/fit-in/700x350/filters:fixed_height(100,100):origin()/pre02/6a62/th/pre/i/2011/004/2/d/dragon_1_by_spdmngtruper-d36aoc7.jpg

But anyway, on the main point. In human form it makes sense to me, she is fast, ferocious, brutal and strong. But in dragon form wing-slapping 1.4-1.8 times a second just feels silly.

Papa Andrei2 votes

Possibly change AA to a fire breath dot damage and the damage/dot length depending on AD/AS?

Silverjust1 votes

this is a really good idea Just make her basic attacks fire when in dragon form

Chembaron Yamada2 votes

Agreed, it will take away the strange highspeed dragon slapping but change nothing about Shyvanas damage output, Definitely the best idea to solve that problem so far.

Gorozora1 votes

You guys. Just Gnar . That is all.

50000000000000001 votes

Giving more AD and lowering AS would just lower her DPS, given that on-hit items are her main source of damage. This is same with on-hit Gnar, although the issue isn't as apparent since most Gnars just build tank.

Aeszarck5 votes

It is rare to see someone generally happy about a rework and just post for the sake of that happiness. Most people seem to complain about how terrible they thought whatever rework was.

Mira Arya Enthe4 votes

It is genetically advantageous to the human advancement to not be content. But somebody has to be a cheer leader.

Aeszarck1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0Py1aHtv,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2017-03-28T21:59:20.698+0000)

It is genetically advantageous to the human advancement to not be content. But somebody has to be a cheer leader.

I agree on both counts.

TyrekGoldenspear4 votes

I would love it if her Dragon Form had a slowed Attack Speed but each hit was massive. It could be something like "Attack Speed in Dragon Form is fixed at .75(or 1.0), Excess attack speed increases AD and gives on hit effects multiple applications". But... this may be impossible to code, too long of a tooltip or even risk making her too bursty. It is just a fantasy of feeling more massive and dragony.

Jhin Fear not my dear. I can make you an artist.

Jhin's design features something like this, I don't think Riot doesn't know how to code fixed attack speed into more damage.

Mira Arya Enthe1 votes

Indeed, Jhin gave me the idea. But to make it apply multiples of on-hits(because that is what Shyvana builds) and portions of on-hits would be the weird part. And might make her too bursty.

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

You mean like weird numbers like 3 on-hits or 4.5 of on-hits applied?

Nah that's simple. Just like how Shyv's human Q does it twice, just change the number on the code-side from 2 to 3, 3.5 or whatever. It's actaully simpler than it sounds.

As for the too bursty, yeah that's definitely a concern. But on the other hand if you don't make her apply multiple on-hits you run the risk of her gimping her own AA damage by turning into a dragon.

Mira Arya Enthe1 votes

Basically it would have to be. "Check how many TH procs would apply to enemies during 1.0 seconds if she was attacking at 1.7AS" then that. It would probably pull some strands of spaghetti and get sauce everywhere.

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

Ah. I know how that can be coded, but depending on how their framework is set up, then yes, sauce can spill.

The calculations get a little weird if her Attack Speed changes on-hit, i.e. with item 3124. I wouldn't want to be there for that spaghetti explosion.

YoungSirJ0ey1 votes

Actually, Guinsoo's wouldn't be a problem. It's on-attack, not on-hit, so it wouldn't occur more than once.

Zenthon Prime1 votes

It wouldn't be that bad, actually. Her AS is locked to 1.0 or whatever and all damage (including onhits) is given a multiplier based on AS. So it's only one proc of those onhits, like normal, but they do far more damage. Fury per autoattack and Q CD reduction in dragon form would also scale with AS.

YoungSirJ0ey1 votes

It wouldn't necessarily break the code, but it would break Shyvana, because autoattack resets exist. Basically, if you had an attack speed of 2 and had Bloodrazor, BoRK, and Titanic Hydra, by utilizing autoattack resets, you could potentially proc on-hits 7 times in around a second, dealing 28% of their max health, 56% of their current health, and 16% of your max health in physical damage, plus 280+25% of your max health to everyone standing behind the primary target. If you hit them with your E beforehand, you would additionally deal another 17.5% of their max health in magic damage, and if you had a Wit's End, though I don't know why you would, you would deal another 280 magic damage and steal 25 of their MR. Basically, you'd instamurder anyone dumb enough to not build armor.

Fluffeh3 votes

It feels silly to have her dragon attack so fast but even getting AD in exchange for for attack speed wouldnt help her. She's an on hit champion and she needs to attack fast to make that on hit work.

Mira Arya Enthe1 votes

gives on hit effects multiple applications"

Chembaron Yamada2 votes

I don't think it is possible to implement in Shyvana without being op.

Embertine3 votes

Again I agree with you quite a bit. I also found her mini-rework to be a great step in the right direction. Unfortunately I always end up playing support so I haven't been able to play Shyvana at all. Feels bad, and now I am sad. T~T

Linna Excel2 votes

But not so bad that Riot had to Azir or Kalista her.

The correct term is to Olaf someone.

Shyvana's free 5/10/15/20 Magic Resist and Armor(double in dragon form) was removed from her kit. It was too much free power for no reason.

Umm, just about every passive in the game is "free" power. Under the context of the lethality buffs, I'm not sure how I feel about the change right now. Under the context of her getting power with teamwork, it's clear riot hates her because soloqueue has no teamwork.

Shyvana lost her Trail of Embers on her W, instead in Dragon Form it is increased in size based on her ult rank. Bad change in my opinion, Thematically Trail of Embers was amazing

It was interesting, but probably too close to singed for a champion not really built around spreading poison trails.

Sexy Jack Rabbit1 votes

I agree with the last point.

Forhonor3212 votes

I think her mini rework as a whole was...decent. They helped the fantasy feel of her, giving her a better dragon E and ult size with rank, but the best part to me is how she's unstoppable during her flight now. YES! I had asked for stuff like that and then it happened. % damage to monsters going, her ult losing range, AP on E lowered and stopping on the first champ hit did kinda disappoint me but in retrospect I can understand to prevent her from being a bit overbearing. The one thing, however, I just absolutely hate is her new passive. I just hate it. Yeah you do more damage to dragons, somewhat making it easier to solo, but it's also the only way to gain your bonus armor and MR back, to which if you don't ever have drag control or you only get one before elder it just feels like it doesn't matter to have it.

Also, in reguards to your dragon hit harder fantasy feel, if they can have Gnar transform and lose some of his attack speed for AD I'm fairly certain they could with Shyvana. But honestly I'd rather have her gain some sort of CC in her kit. Right now, I barely play her at all because I constantly feel like there are better choices than her, Graves for instance. Just something like a slow would suffice me in picking her up more often, rather than constantly feeling like the champ that has to farm for 6 before she can give a_ decent_ gank off.

Azteryz2 votes

hi i am Shyvana and im going to jump at you in flames and turn into a giant sized dra,,, wyvern and slam at you with a force of this beast this is my strongest/ultimate ability

hello there i am Thresh i have this here scythe whip doo hickie that does 10 dmg and im going to swish swoogity flay you and that should stop you in your tracks in the most pathetic anti climatic way possible :D

thank god they changed that and gave her immunity now imagine if they gave her a visual update

flames, flames everywhere item 3751

Raxistaicho1 votes

That exact scenario has happened to me. Was no amused.

RaiokuMoonscar2 votes

I like the Dragon Form idea though I do wonder how absurd that'd get with her combos, >.> sounds like it'd be waayyyy to much burst as you stated.

A simpler solution in my opinion would be to change up the way she attacks in dragon form. Although I'd like that in combination with the fixed 1 spd and double on-hit effect procs but again who knows how it'd play out.

Raxistaicho2 votes

I agree with the fire trail idea. Her dragon form W is just so underwhelming now.

Papa Andrei1 votes

Honestly, I feel like the Dragon form should be semi magical and physical, Like its a dragon, it can bite you in half or burn you to a crisp. Maybe its just me, but I would love the dragon form to have more... impact. Bite someone and throw them, Pick someone up and drop them from a high place. Literally make some Yordle barbeque, anything other than just slap slap slap.

Dreadnøught1 votes

[deleted]

YoungSirJ0ey1 votes

That would work conceptually, but would probably be broken in practice, because autoattack resets exist. Assuming that her Q would only add an additional on-hit proc and not double the number of them, if you had Bloodrazor, BoRK, and Titanic Hydra, by utilizing autoattack resets, you could potentially proc on-hits 7 times in around a second, dealing 28% of their max health, 56% of their current health, and 16% of your max health in physical damage, plus 280+25% of your max health to everyone standing behind the primary target. If you hit them with your E beforehand, you would additionally deal another 17.5% of their max health in magic damage. You'd instagib everyone.

Great Muta1 votes

I didn't like they Shyvana update and I was a Shyvana main for a long time. It didn't fix any of her weaknesses and just improved upon the things she was already good at. She still has a bad early game, she still is easily kited and she's not tanky enough anymore to dive into groups like she could during the Devourer years. She's also now back to pretty much the same winrate and playrate as before the update.

I don't feel she is worth playing and like just before the update, she's in the same exact spot. Hecarim, Voli, Sejuani and Zac fill similar roles and will likely get you more wins. And it really sucks, because her and Vayne are my two favorite champs probably in the game neither one is likely getting picked in a pro game again.

Mira Arya Enthe2 votes

I'd like to hear your ideas.

PapaGreg211 votes

The only thing I would change about her is to change her q from an enhanced auto attack to simply a nuke ability. I hate her Q. I feel like it does absolutely nothing until you have an on-hit item already built. It got nerfed way too hard during devourer and now you can't trade early with more powerful junglers. Who would have thought that you would be scared of Graves in the jungle?

Raxistaicho2 votes

Don't forget that Shyvana has on-hit effects built into her E and W.

PapaGreg211 votes

Because her passive is entirely based around your team winning early to secure vision and pressure around dragon, I would much rather have front loaded power in her Q than on-hit power that won't help me until later in the game.

Profirix1 votes

I wish item 3124 was worth purchasing on her. It has everything that she could possibly want from the DPS category but isn't really a good item without additional on-hit effects. You take a major hit in tankiness (which she desperately needs) for the extra damage, plus the AP is poorly utilized in her kit. I want to buy it desperately on her, but it just doesn't fit.

Log Horizon1 votes

[{quoted}](name=I Blame Adam,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0Py1aHtv,comment-id=000e,timestamp=2017-03-29T19:02:22.480+0000)

I wish item 3124 was worth purchasing on her. It has everything that she could possibly want from the DPS category but isn't really a good item without additional on-hit effects. You take a major hit in tankiness (which she desperately needs) for the extra damage, plus the AP is poorly utilized in her kit. I want to buy it desperately on her, but it just doesn't fit.

Shyv actually gets quite a bit from only item 1419 and item 3124 alone, definitely enough to justify them being her only damage items, however its a hard item to justify building early because it takes a while to build and you lose out on a lot of tankyness while you build it. Id love if her q stacked rageblade twice, that alone would make it a more viable build option for her.

Profirix1 votes

That is a very good point. Twin Bite should add an additional stack to Rageblade.

YoungSirJ0ey1 votes

Should, but doesn't. There are these things called on-attack effects, and they're basically just shitty on-hit effects, not proccing on anything other than basic attacks and only proccing once per attack irrelevant of the number of on-hits the attack would proc. Guinsoo's stacks are on-attack, not on-hit.

I seem to be bad at reading.

Mira Arya Enthe1 votes

item 1416 item 3111 item 3748 item 3143 item 3022 item 3153

More ideal in 90% of games.

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