@Cactopus/Meddler RE: Rune Refund

ForFoxSakes··24 votes·6,510 views

You guys dont want to give more BE in return for reunes reforged at the cost of the company, but the players don't want to feel screwed over by having inadequate compensation. Lets come to a compromise.

Looking at the facts on your side:

  1. Giving back a lot of BE means a lot of people will dump this into new champs meaning lost RITO profits, understandably bad
  2. Giving some vet chests at X# of years/seasons played isnt fair when someone can do 10 games a season on an alt vs someone who actually plays 1000 games in a season (vet by years played)
  3. Giving some compensation for games played like someone who played 1000 games in their single year of playing vs the 10 games player isnt fair since it's based on a person's free time and doesnt necessarily make on worth more or less than the other (vet by games played)

Looking at the facts on our side:

  1. A LOT of runes cost way more than what they were listed at with the most recent prices (prior to the now 99% discount) and the return rate now is not satisfactory to anyone
  2. Runes were forced upon us and cost players time, some money and most people champs when they needed runes
  3. Rune pages cost A LOT of time/IP/$$
  4. A lot of players gave a lot of loyalty, time in years and multiple seasons and are being grouped w those who just started for champ xp, getting insufficient recognition
  5. For the most part, we DONT want icons, emotes or some flair especially since they'll be replaced (ie can only use 1 icon, limited emote selection space etc)

So lets nail all of these in 1 sweep. Turn the launch of the Runes Reforged into an event

  • All the rune and runepage refund will give Rune Reforged Tickets as currency
  • Each player will have RR Tickets based on their spending on runes/pages so it'll be fair for those who have spent a ton vs spent little, but return will be 100% based on the amount they spent to obtain it. If someone spent 820 on a rune and it now costs 410 they'll get the 820 value. This will reward the vets more since they paid more, as it should be
  • Currency can be used on the items you've planned already PLUS MORE
  • Plus more = icons for those who want it, loading screen flair for those who want it, but most importantly summoner XP. Vets who dumped a lot of IP/RP into runes/pages can use this to get something some levels over those who dont have as many RR tickets to spend
  • The RR Ticket currency segregates from costing RITO revenue from not giving up champions since it wont be converted to IP/BE for champ purchases
  • The RR Ticket system gives the PLAYER the control on what reward they want as compensation based on what they value, rather some who feel that RITO tells them what they should appreciate with set or restricted rewards
  • Add some quests to reward tickets to those who don't get a significant RR refund so they aren't left out
  • IP and BE currently held will have no value towards the RR event since this is about the old rune system and new, not how much IP/BE the player has currently collected. This is one major problem you're banging against right now
  • RR tickets are already locked in the past, people can't try to cheese them with discount runes, champ shard investing and whatnot so what you put in already is what you get back

Ta Daaa

71 Comments

SanKakU5 votes

Yeah, that's a great idea. If they are so worried about giving people too much IP/BE, just make it a different resource that can only be used on skins and emotes so that they can't spend the refund on champions.

I mean, if you don't want us buying champions with the refund, why not make it impossible to do so? I mean, unless you make it impossible to do so, there's no way I'm not doing it. I can't do the full math on what I should get for what I paid for but I can do the math that I can buy 3 champions with the refund. Why not make it impossible for me to do it? I'm not taking the bait and buying from the limited time store any of that stuff, and I doubt others won't feel the same.

My guess is they didn't actually track forever our rune purchases so they can't give us the 100 percent refund even if they wanted to, at least not accurately. And they don't want to admit it. It would make them look bad.

RiotRiot Calad3 votes

We do want people to be able to buy champions with the transition rewards. A lot of players made the decision between a new champion or a new set of runes (I know I did), and we didn't want to deny them the ability to spend their rewards on champions if they decided that's what they wanted to do.

Edge of Daybreak3 votes

Hi. I just wanted to quickly ask if there is talk of adding some variety to the super high tiers of the blue essence shop so that urfwick isnt the only super high tier item. Having other choices would be nice.

RiotRiot Calad4 votes

What other choices would you be excited about?

EROTIC RAID BOSS2 votes

Young ryze would be pretty thematically appropriate if youd be down for rereleasing him

warpenguin5552 votes

I would like to add on to this by saying that King Rammus and Black Alistar would be cool too

SanKakU1 votes

Yeah, as my highest mastery champ at the moment, I really want you to make King Rammus available again as I'm sick and tired of being hounded for having that skin.

Edge of Daybreak1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Calad,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0PRZVu8m,comment-id=0001000200000000,timestamp=2017-09-07T03:34:16.595+0000)

What other choices would you be excited about?

It's not really about my own personal benefit just more options in the high tier(urfwick area) category in general. I am sure there are people who will love urfwick but there could be some other incredibly rare skin options there as well so that a higher pool of people can have something they maybe want. If anything people who want an incredibly rare skin for a different champion could maybe have it up there. Plus dumping all of that essence for that one skin means that players have to make a choice between that skin or just spam buying champions. I don't know the finer details of the other options in the essence shop but the urfwick thing is a big concern of mine. I probably should use a different word there but I'm not well versed.

RiotRiot Calad4 votes

Your words are fine :)

Thanks for the suggestions!

La Bello1 votes

yeah I agree. I dont think I would have been as pissed about the returns if it weren't for the BE shop prices. Having done all the calculations it became really apparent that I was either going to have to choose between Urfwick OR all the other Goodies in the store which I understand is because you want to keep the skin somewhat rare but even still it just feels awful being forced to choose between the two.

SUGGESTION: all players get a BE shop discount based on account age or seasons with at least 50+games played.

also either Triumphant or Human Ryze would be cool as a high BP/IP option besides Warwick since he is the RUNE MAGE after all.

ForFoxSakes4 votes

I think something like in game champ borders would be new

Think Diablo 3 portrait frames http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/diablo/images/d/da/Diablo-3-Paragon-Progress-Borders.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20140511100547

Around the champs portraits here https://imgur.com/a/EmBtw

If it really bugs people they can turn it off or block it. I'd like it way more than emotes anyways

RiotRiot Calad4 votes

Good reference, ty!

ModThe Djinn4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Calad,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0PRZVu8m,comment-id=000100020000000000020000,timestamp=2017-09-07T05:11:51.140+0000)

Good reference, ty!

As a suggestion -- if you do this, I'd tie it to Seasons Played or something rather than account level or games played. If you reward veterans and that translates to "rewarding those with more games played" and not "rewarding long-time players" it could feel a little bad for those of us who don't have as much time to play but have stuck with the game for ages.

Especially since account level (and the corresponding rewards) are basically a reward for those who play a lot. :P

Lithillya1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Calad,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0PRZVu8m,comment-id=0001000200000000,timestamp=2017-09-07T03:34:16.595+0000)

What other choices would you be excited about?

What if you already own the Urfwick skin? Are you going to be compensated for a previously exclusive skin now being available for everyone? You're drawn hard lines before when it comes to rare skins, such as PAX ones, and beta skins like King Rammus. Why was it decided that bringing this one back was alright, but not the others? Is there at least going to be a color change to the skin, or a border for those who already has it?

Huang Shaotian2 votes

An item you can buy once per game, that does some odd effect, like play a song, or spawn a poro in your lane, or make dragons spawn with a veteran hat, or puts on little wraith costumes on raptors, Something that's completely different to all the things you get so far.

I hate summoner icons, there are so many now and nothing will ever replace my season 1 cup. And I don't think skins are a good choice because players will feel they missed out and everyone plays different champions.

metamilo1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Calad,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0PRZVu8m,comment-id=0001000200000000,timestamp=2017-09-07T03:34:16.595+0000)

What other choices would you be excited about?

A long time ago I purchased some holiday runes, it would be awesome if you could provide the old rune art as summoner icons for those of us who purchased these.

I currently have sets of "Bountiful Treats", "Headless Horseman", "Piercing Screech", "Speedy Specter", and "Whiches Brew". It would be cool to use these during the harrowing in some form or other.

I just think it would be an awesome way to reward players who have participated in the game for so long.

ForFoxSakes6 votes

You do want people to buy champs with transition rewards, but not to the extreme that a huge BE refund will cost the company in significant revenue when a big refund means lots of champ purchases.

Giving summoner exp with RR tickets indirectly rewards champs via leveling capsules right away so that meets your goal there. IMO not much of a bigger investment for RITO to give leveling capsules (many posts have already said vets want capsules now as recognition) over straight champ purchases. Time played vets want recognition as well, so they can opt for the summoner exp for immediate payout now which really doesnt cost RITO the same since those people will level a bit slower at higher levels right? Assuming something like 30-31 is faster than going from 40-41. They were going to earn those leveling capsules regardless, except using the RR tickets it's a front loaded reward with slower rewards later.

Letting them open even 5 capsules (that they were going to get anyways at some point) at once is exciting and more rewarding and less insulting than grouping them the same as everyone else

RiotRiot Calad9 votes

You do want people to buy champs with transition rewards, but not to the extreme that a huge BE refund will cost the company in significant revenue when a big refund means lots of champ purchases.

True, I think that's a reasonable distinction. I kind of separate them into 2 different categories, though of course they're intertwined.

Philosophically, we wanted players to be able to purchase champions with their transition rewards. I think how many champs players are able to purchase is more about what kind of rewards you get, and what feels fair.

Time played vets want recognition as well, so they can opt for the summoner exp for immediate payout now which really doesnt cost RITO the same since those people will level a bit slower at higher levels right?

It probably costs a bit - since those people will reach higher tiers of rewards faster, but my guess is you're right that it would probably be cheaper for riot.

It's an interesting idea, letting people opt in to starting at a higher level via their transition rewards. Overall, I think the new leveling system will be really fun, especially leveling up from 30. We didn't want to deny veteran players that early level-up experience by starting them at a higher level.

Something you said that I agree with is that riot should do a better job of rewarding veterans who have been playing the game for a long time. You guys are the reason we're even still around! My question for you is - what kinds of things can we give you? My initial take is that we should do something unique, focused around recognition - and certainly much bigger than an icon. How do you feel? Am I off-base here?

ForFoxSakes3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Calad,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0PRZVu8m,comment-id=0001000200010000,timestamp=2017-09-07T03:33:19.527+0000)

It's an interesting idea, letting people opt in to starting at a higher level via their transition rewards. Overall, I think the new leveling system will be really fun, especially leveling up from 30. We didn't want to deny veteran players that early level-up experience by starting them at a higher level.

You didnt want to deny vet players that early levelup experience, but it's not YOU or RITO denying, it's the player when the choose the summoner EXP over other RR Ticket rewards. Theyre CHOOSING to opt out of the early levels if that's what they value the most as rewarding and recognition

Something you said that I agree with is that riot should do a better job of rewarding veterans who have been playing the game for a long time. You guys are the reason we're even still around! My question for you is - what kinds of things can we give you? My initial take is that we should do something unique, focused around recognition - and certainly much bigger than an icon. How do you feel? Am I off-base here?

You're correct. An Icon would be nice for some since I dont think I can speak for all and some may value icons. This is already pointed out in the original post where those who value the icons can choose to get one with the RR tickets. IMO you also dont want to segregate players with thresholds. Meaning someone who played since Season 2 gets a better icon vs Season 3 who gets better than Season 4 etc. Those Seasonal rewards have already been handed out. Time thresholds arent fair because for example - someone who played since S2 then took a years off may be getting something better than someone who played Season 3 on everyday.

The Icon reward should be based on cost. A good icon for 20,000 RR Tickets or some godly one for 50,000. People who have paid more in runes should get the option to unlock a nicer one. Same goes for flair, emotes, etc whatever is released on the store. Scale the rewards based on cost

This costing also has nothing to do with IP/BE superbanks either so it's exclusive to RR only and people can pick what they want as the reward for what they value the most

Hellioning5 votes

I'm personally of the opinion that veteran rewards are dumb in general. Especially veteran rewards that new players cannot possibly get. It feels shit to look at something you like and be told 'sorry, should have started playing the game a decade ago. What, you were a five year old then? That's no excuse.'

If veteran's rewards must exist, they should be accessible to every veteran player who hits that milestone, not just a one time 'everyone who's played since beta gets this cool thing, fuck everyone else' mechanic. A 10 year old account should get the same things as another 10 year old account, even if one's been playing since beta and the other one hasn't been made yet.

RiotRiot Calad4 votes

That's definitely part of the challenge, yeah. Some players who joined later could feel like they kind of missed the boat on something cool they never had a chance to get. We don't want veteran rewards to feel like a punishment for new players, but we don't want veterans to feel like they don't matter to us either.

Hellioning2 votes

Honestly? If a veteran needs something in game to be told that they matter to Riot, maybe they shouldn't matter to Riot.

Huang Shaotian3 votes

Honestly, 3-4 years of missing every double IP event, and getting "exclusive" content in the early days only to have them be publicly released would leave a bad taste in any vets mouth. I know it did mine.

If you think riot should take the 'we don't matter' approach now we've spent all our money and dragged all our friends into this game to make it the popular powerhouse it is today, I'd say you don't understand the concept of customer loyalty.

Hellioning1 votes

Why were you missing every double IP event? Because you're in OCE, or something else?

(And again, exclusive content is dumb.)

I'm not saying that vets don't matter, I'm saying that you don't need to give vets stuff to show that they matter.

Huang Shaotian3 votes

I disagree personally, In a client customer relationship giving people stuff is essentially the only meaningful way to show you matter. Anyone can get their PR team to bang out a generic you matter to us message but to me that more shows how much you don't matter, than how much you matter.

So again, I resist your notion that just because a vet wants a meaningful reward for their customer loyalty, that we're not worth caring about by riot.

I appreciate that you might not like exclusive content peoples tastes differ, and you have every right to express the things you like and don't like.

Muranodo6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Calad,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0PRZVu8m,comment-id=000100020001000000020000,timestamp=2017-09-07T05:04:10.766+0000)

That's definitely part of the challenge, yeah. Some players who joined later could feel like they kind of missed the boat on something cool they never had a chance to get. We don't want veteran rewards to feel like a punishment for new players, but we don't want veterans to feel like they don't matter to us either.

This is actually the point of contention that I run into as a quasi-veteran (I joined up in season 2). There's been this back and forth always about exclusivity towards the veterans. And this is why lifetime RP rewards became such an overall flop because it would stratify newer players.

In the end, it creates a pain point. Because it feels as if the community reacts in a pretty similar way each time Riot tries to make it "fair." Because it appears to always slide more towards the newer players, or the veteran players get very non-visible recognition points (i.e. talks of a ward skin/emote/another icon). And this is why there's these logical arguments about veterans feeling they should be ahead/get more stuff back because it sounds like a secondary deal to us.

Now, I understand every account situation is unique. I also understand that Riot is going at this like a business. Attracting a consistent flow of a new player base.

But sometimes it feels like Riot, itself, over complicates the problem. A lot of the BE shop issues that I see are veterans feeling like they can't shop enough to get what they want. Prices are intentionally set high to make it exclusive. And I look at some of the content options like so:

Mystery icons. With the introduction of emotes/these kinds of icons, it looks like Riot is going for ways to kill some of the memes about when will we get ways to better showcase what champions we love actively in game besides through the mastery system. But there's a RNG factor to the icons where I might not have that BE to spend for it. Also, it's potential a champion I like won't be in the initial pass (i.e. various monstrous champions). Emotes I don't know the full specifics.

I was again pretty disappointed to hear with the Star Guardian event that it's not feasible to make the redone Cho, Skarner, Vel'Koz, Kha'Zix, Rek'sai into a chroma. They would have been wonderful, personally, for the BE shop for me as it hit a niche that I very much wanted. I still hope Riot reconsiders making them work...

I would have liked if say a reward could be something like an increased chance to get skin shards say for your favorite champions (like with the personal shop) coming out of chests/or just a personal shop with a skin or two that could be bought with BE would be nice. I just again feel a bit apathetic that what I spent in RP on rune pages is probably coming back to be....more RNG champion skins. I've disenchanted a ton recently for champions I don't play; I'm also sitting on a good bit of orange essence. I know the personal shop is a certain excitement point with the community---and I'm a bit surprised it's not being taken advantage of for this kind of scenario to make it more personal.

All-in-all, I don't technically "need" anything. It just feels like it's not equal as a focus point. It feels there's this constant incentive to make the new players feel better even at pain points for the old, but when it comes the opposite way---the treatment isn't the same. That community is just told to be understanding of Riot's fiscal policy. Yet, I supported Riot with a good deal of RP purchases; I'm left thinking I should have just been a much shrewder player and been not bamboozled, so to speak, by runes on the whole which were a bit of an IP trap. They did open up a good deal of minor tactical options and some were mandatory---theoretically---on each season. Just feels bad, and it's not feeling any better yet.

La Bello1 votes

Some players who joined later could feel like they kind of missed the boat on something cool they never had a chance to get

is why you keep bringing back legacy skins and limited skins like S2 Riven ?

Dessem1 votes

I'm mostly worried that I paid RP for a rune page or two back when I started, and I'll be given IP for it in return when, by now, I have all champions already...

xelaker1 votes

But being new, literally means missing out on everything prior...wtf. vets just want something worth the time and effort of what's going away.

Sad Tyrant1 votes

Maybe a Season counter. for every season you've played in +1. so a season 1 player a 7 and a season 3 player would have a 5 and a season 7 player would have a 1

ForFoxSakes4 votes

I also want to make my point very explicitly clear:

**This is 100% about return on runes and fair compensation on it, absolutely NOTHING to do with veteran player status **

Someone who has played since Season 1 can have 2 runepages and just basic AP and AD rune sets SHOULD NOT be getting better or more stuff than someone who has started in Season 5 yet spent to get all the runes and max 20 pages.

The direction I'm getting from many red posts is that they want to also group in veteran status recognition as well as an IP superbank dump. Someone can also have played since Season 1 and not have a huge IP bank, while somewho plays a ton since season 6 can have a superbank.

DO NOT try to solve all of these in one sweep as it'll leave a lot of people out hanging

RiotRiot Calad3 votes

I agree with you that they're separate categories, but the changes to ip/leveling and the transition rewards are all coming in the same patch, which is probably why you see rioters talking about them both.

EnkiduUruk1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Calad,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0PRZVu8m,comment-id=00010002,timestamp=2017-09-07T01:50:00.122+0000)

We do want people to be able to buy champions with the transition rewards. A lot of players made the decision between a new champion or a new set of runes (I know I did), and we didn't want to deny them the ability to spend their rewards on champions if they decided that's what they wanted to do.

Sure, but only 12% worth of we invested. Which is why people are so pissed to begin with.

This BE Shop? It's not even targeted at the people getting refunds, its the people that have a huge stockpile to begin with. Many people won't be able to take advantage of this shop, nor does everyone care, some of us just want to recoup some of our lost effort fairly and covert that IP into champions we never got because we invested into runes. (But you want us to spend money on instead, which to mean sounds like a con job with the IP sink we just lost)

Frankly I don't care about how this could hurt your business, I'll tell you how it will hurt your business though, from at least one customers perspective: I'm not injecting any more money into this game if those passes as is. And come next season I might not even bother playing. Even now as a discussion among a circle of friends there's enough disdain and anger about this that even the ones that didn't care as much are starting to. We've played as a group for a long time, we'll likely leave as one too.

RiotRiot Calad5 votes

Sad to report that I’m not Cactopus or Meddler (I wish…) but I’m down to chat about this idea with you in a bit more depth.

I know we explored the idea of giving a specific “transition-only” currency like the Rune Reforged Tickets you describe (though to be fair, we thought about a lot of different approaches).

Could you go into more detail about this point in your post?

Currency can be used on the items you've planned already PLUS MORE Plus more = icons for those who want it, loading screen flair for those who want it, but most importantly champion XP. Vets who dumped a lot of IP/RP into runes/pages can use this to get something some champion levels over those who dont have as many RR tickets to spend

Specifically, what do you mean by champion XP? Are you talking about players levels (aka levels above 30) or champ mastery levels (aka bard mastery 6 & 7)?

To me, a lot of what you’re describing here is similar to what we were trying to accomplish with the blue essence store, so I definitely want to make sure I understand where you’re coming from, and where those differences lie.

ForFoxSakes4 votes

Hey Calad,

Thanks for the response.

Champ exp as in the summoner's exp. With the plan to remove the 30 cap, using the refund currency would allow the player to level their account. It isnt going to be an extreme amount of levels, something maybe even like at most 10 level if the person had purchased all the runes and pages and used them all towards exp could be satisfying to a degree when the reset rolls over and a level 40 is around they'd immediately get recognition as a super invested vet.

With the RR ticket currency already going to be limited based on what was put in past runes, it's not really possible to get a massive head start by banking IP/BE right now anyways.

Champ mastery levels will be already tied to BE as it is now. I worded it wrong in the post and really meant summoner level

I really think grouping the Rune Reforged refund problem in with trying to solve the big IP/BE bank issue together is a mistake. Solve RR first then deal with IP bank in another store/event

RiotRiot Calad6 votes

Cool, thanks for clarifying :)

I talked a bit about summoner level in another reply - but I'm not sure I agree if starting veterans at a slightly higher level (say 40) would really give you lasting recognition. Even if you played a ton, and started at level 40, that doesn't necessarily mean you'd always be a higher level than other players. What if newer level 30's play more and overtake you, or (god forbid) you go on a trip and don't have access to league? D:

I do think veterans should be recognized, but in a way that's more permanent than a temporary level boost. That's actually why we're making exclusive rewards for veterans in-game (ward skin, emote) because we think players should be able to tell someone is a veteran in-game, not just by clicking to their profile page. But that may not be enough - and I feel like what I'm hearing from players is that it's not enough. I would really like to hear your suggestions on what sorts of things would make you feel more recognized, because I feel like it has to be something special and unique - something we haven't done before.

ForFoxSakes3 votes

That's totally fine if others over take you. It's not meant to have vets always being the highest level, just gives them a better feeling of accomplishment and trading their past long investment in time (Rune IP grinding) for time now.

The thing is people will value the reward much much much x100000 more if they choose the reward they want the most and are given a choice. No reward you give them will actually be "permanent" status at all times. An icon is replaced with another icon - that vet recognition is hidden away now. Flair or emote the pick gets swapped in with another one they want to use - that vet status recognition is no longer made apparent. Ward skin gets swapped out with another one and that recognition isnt made obvious.

The problem with those items if theyre given without the choice is they're forced to use that said icon, or ward skin in order for others to see their recognition when they may like their hextech ward the most (at which the vet ward skin recognition is lost) or some other icon more than the vet icon.

However, if someone does like the icon/ward skin/emote, they'll pick it and buy it with RR tickets. Just make sure those items are available in the store. If the vets really want the more permanent rewards over exp, they'll get all of those first with RR tickets before dumping the rest into exp. If someone wants to show their mega ultra super vet status they can use all 3 if they value it and choose to

patmax173 votes

Hello Calad!

I wrote two posts with suggestions in another topic, if you want to have a look: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/general-discussion/8h0YpEWl-how-to-reward-vets-without-just-dumping-30-boxes-on-them?comment=00230001 https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/general-discussion/8h0YpEWl-how-to-reward-vets-without-just-dumping-30-boxes-on-them?comment=002f00000002

The problem I have with emotes is that I never really use them (and mastery neither), because I'm too concentrated on, you know, playing, instead of spamming emotes during game. I would probably appreciate if e.g. "veteran" emotes would play automatically, say like a multikill, or maybe during recall. Speaking of recall, what about recall decals that show the seasons you played in? It's something that would show often during game, and it doesn't need a specific action by the player.

Another user suggested portrait decoration, that was something I was thinking about too, it could also show in the "kill" message (like the little banners you added a few seasons ago that show killing sprees and bounty - not sure if it's clear what I mean).

As for unique skins for BE store, I see you are experimenting with special chromas for skins (championship ashe, pax sivir), and it's an idea I like (I already liked it when Riot first threw around the idea of different chroma for the victorious skin for different ranked tiers). What if you released rare and/or unique skins, but with a different chroma? That would give players the opportunity to use that rare skins, but it would distinguish them from those who got them when they first came out. I'm thinking of things like ufo corki, or the riot skins (Riot Singed is limited, but also Riot Blitzcrank is "just" legacy but hasn't been purchasable for years, IIRC)

My two cents, thanks for listening and I hope my suggestions are useful ^^

ModThe Djinn1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Calad,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0PRZVu8m,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2017-09-07T03:52:54.299+0000)...because I feel like it has to be something special and unique - something we haven't done before.

A loading screen border/icon of some sort could work, but that runs into issues with Honor and Season Rewards.

Skins and Icons are problematic because you may not want to show them off, which is frustrating.

Special emotes/Mastery icons/Wards could work, but, again, you can't have that many of them equipped.

Maybe a special chat flair? That would be a potentially interesting solution, and encourage team communication. Or maybe something like a special "Buff" that appears on the champion's buff bar or an icon or border that appears on the tab screen. Something low impact but noticeable might be nice.

For example -- each season you've played earns you a star on your Tab screen border, or something like that. Obviously just throwing out UI ideas as examples, but I think the idea has potential.

Rebel 9861 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Calad,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0PRZVu8m,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2017-09-07T03:52:54.299+0000)

Cool, thanks for clarifying :)

I talked a bit about summoner level in another reply - but I'm not sure I agree if starting veterans at a slightly higher level (say 40) would really give you lasting recognition. Even if you played a ton, and started at level 40, that doesn't necessarily mean you'd always be a higher level than other players. What if newer level 30's play more and overtake you, or (god forbid) you go on a trip and don't have access to league? D:

I do think veterans should be recognized, but in a way that's more permanent than a temporary level boost. That's actually why we're making exclusive rewards for veterans in-game (ward skin, emote) because we think players should be able to tell someone is a veteran in-game, not just by clicking to their profile page. But that may not be enough - and I feel like what I'm hearing from players is that it's not enough. I would really like to hear your suggestions on what sorts of things would make you feel more recognized, because I feel like it has to be something special and unique - something we haven't done before.

I would love a loading screen flair that all players see when the game is loading. Maybe a special boarder that goes around ur ranked boarder or possibly arpund ur summoners name

Sohleks4 votes

I JUST REALIZED SOMETHING.

By opening the door to convert shards and essence into what is essentially ip and runes you can BUY the "rune rewards" [when you couldn't even buy runes]. The proposed system is allowing any whale to BUY what I can't even get with EVERY VIABLE RUNE SINCE SEASON 1. Riot be on these boards "we have to protect our revenue" but while giving piss returns on the rune tax they are also opening the door to cash in on a few buying MASSES of crates for the BE shop.

That must be what this is. So disappointing.

I mean, I know those kinds of whales are gonna be few compared to every account... But still...

Just something that means "damn, I spent 250,000 ip on runes" would be nice. That couldn't have been bought?

ForFoxSakes2 votes

{quoted}

Just something that means "damn, I spent 250,000 ip on runes" would be nice. That couldn't have been bought?

Which is why the RR ticket system is the most fair since it only rewards strictly on what was spent in the past. Having a few super nice items in the RR ticket only store would reward those players and the currency conversion cant be gamed from now until RR release or with any IP superbank

RiotRiot Calad6 votes

That's not the goal, but let me be clear.

**Please do not spend money on crates to get things in the BE store - ESPECIALLY if you're unsatisfied with the transition rewards. **

We would much rather you voice your honest feelings on the transition than you rewarding us with your money because you feel like you have to.

Just something that means "damn, I spent 250,000 ip on runes" would be nice. That couldn't have been bought?

We do have a couple completely exclusive things for people who spent a lot on runes or put have a ton of hours into the game. Those are a unique ward skin and multiple tiers of emotes that you will never be able to get any other way. They weren't ready to show by the time we locked the video, but we're trying to get you guys an early look in an upcoming dev blog so you can tell us what you think.

Kobold2 votes

So I'll come out and say it.

You want us to "vote with our wallets" regarding dissatisfaction on BE store. Great so when Riot (like nearly every company that says this) in the end says the BE store was a success due to people liking it (throw out random number that cannot be confirmed) and congratulates themselves due to making some people happy but making others upset (such is everything), what will be the action taken to relieve the people who were dissatisfied?

I keep seeing these requests for feedback regarding large changes like this but never see anything come of it other than what seem like Ideas that were thought up at the last second instead of through meetings. So if you want feedback there it is. Far too often I feel that the ideas that are presented regarding the playerbase is done extremely poorly by riot and they need some major changes to who is in charge of the meetings or some actual motivation to do the job. This is just the impression I get from Outside the company, as a player. I just don't think the people that are coming up with the ideas are actually wanting to do their job or they just don't have the motivation to actually try. When I am able to come up with the ideas put forth but am able to actually see the negative impact and reasons not to do these but I see red posts that gloss over it and ignore these then maybe the issue is not many people actually are seeing the effects from both sides and only are seeing it from their views as an employee and not a player, despite Riots want of employees and decisions to be player driven.

haywire android4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Calad,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0PRZVu8m,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2017-09-07T03:52:54.299+0000)

That's actually why we're making exclusive rewards for veterans in-game (ward skin, emote) because we think players should be able to tell someone is a veteran in-game, not just by clicking to their profile page.

[{quoted}](name=Riot Calad,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0PRZVu8m,comment-id=000400020001,timestamp=2017-09-07T03:43:24.606+0000)

We do have a couple completely exclusive things for people who spent a lot on runes or put have a ton of hours into the game. Those are a unique ward skin and multiple tiers of emotes that you will never be able to get any other way.

This is really interesting, but the way you describe them here sounds very diffrent from the way it was described earlier.

If this is a reward for veterans, I assume they will be gated by when you started playing and cheap in blue essence.

Because if they are gated by a rediculus blue essence price, we are back at the problem, the refunds don't give veterans enough essence and a new player with full refunds of thier runes will likelly have a greater chance of getting these store items.

If this shop truly is a shop commemorating those who has used the runesystem, then surely someone who owns every rune and page should get enough of a refund to buy what's in it. Currently the maximum refund is ~105000 blue essence for an investment of just slightly over half a million IP from a veteran player. Not even enough to get the only skin presented for sale so far.

SulphoR3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Calad,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0PRZVu8m,comment-id=000400020001,timestamp=2017-09-07T03:43:24.606+0000)

That's not the goal, but let me be clear.

**Please do not spend money on crates to get things in the BE store - ESPECIALLY if you're unsatisfied with the transition rewards. **

We would much rather you voice your honest feelings on the transition than you rewarding us with your money because you feel like you have to.

We do have a couple completely exclusive things for people who spent a lot on runes or put have a ton of hours into the game. Those are a unique ward skin and multiple tiers of emotes that you will never be able to get any other way. They weren't ready to show by the time we locked the video, but we're trying to get you guys an early look in an upcoming dev blog so you can tell us what you think.

To answer your question. if this is the case and you genuuinly dont want people to have to cash in on BE now to get any meaningful rewards from the veteran shop - Veteran since s1 here, i've spent around 400-500k on runes. have around 400 ~ T3's. And im only getting a return of 70k ip. i cant get the rare skin that i actually wanted. i had to drop £70 ~ on riot points and just buy a fuck load of champion shards to make up the terrible conversion rate on ip im getting as a vet to even be able to get urfwick. a skin that was put on sale from MY era. let me be clear THAT IS JUST FOR ONE ITEM FROM THE VET SHOP.

In my genuine opinion and i do not want this to seem malicious - But if the changes go live as they currently are. you are already fuucking vet players over so hard who invested into runes and continued to do so because it was the only ip sink for years, especially people like me who intentionally brought champions with RP early on because runes in s1 were so god damn expensive.. You have insulted your entire playerbase from s1-s2.

DeathBurst1 votes
  • Plus more = icons for those who want it, loading screen flair for those who want it, but most importantly summoner XP. Vets who dumped a lot of IP/RP into runes/pages can use this to get something some levels over those who dont have as many RR tickets to spend
  • The RR Ticket currency segregates from costing RITO revenue from not giving up champions since it wont be converted to IP/BE for champ purchases

Hum, sorry, but this doesn't work. XP gives Levels which gives IP/BE. So if you let people buy XP with RR, it's exactly the same as refunding directly IP.

  • IP and BE currently held will have no value towards the RR event since this is about the old rune system and new, not how much IP/BE the player has currently collected. This is one major problem you're banging against right now

But this is a good thing that people with tons of IP accumulated from years of playing can finally spend them. You don't want to exclude people from buying Urfwick just because they didn't spend enough money on a bad system such as old Runes.

ForFoxSakes1 votes

{quoted}

Hum, sorry, but this doesn't work. XP gives Levels which gives IP/BE. So if you let people buy XP with RR, it's exactly the same as refunding directly IP.

That's some really screwed up reasoning. Read some more of the thread to actually understand the difference

But this is a good thing that people with tons of IP accumulated from years of playing can finally spend them. You don't want to exclude people from buying Urfwick just because they didn't spend enough money on a bad system such as old Runes.

Rune Refund has nothing to do with IP banks. Grouping both issues and looking for one answer is the wrong way to look at it

DeathBurst1 votes

That's some really screwed up reasoning. Read some more of the thread to actually understand the difference

I read the entirety of the post, but this is the Key Points that makes all your reasoning fall apart. You have good ideas in there, but that doesn't change the fact that Riot can't afford to give away so much IP, and you're offering a way to directly convert all the RR you give away into IP. So all the other good ideas don't work.

Rune Refund has nothing to do with IP banks. Grouping both issues and looking for one answer is the wrong way to look at it.

Ok, granted, but still, it's not about solving the IP banks problem. It's about excluding people who didn't want to buy Runes. If the RR shop contains exclusive loot (such as Urfwick), why someone playing since season 1 with literally hundreds of thousand of IP shouldn't be able to get it, simply because they didn't want to buy all the useless Runes? If they had been warned in advance, they could have dumped that IP into Runes to get Urfwick, but now it's too late.

Admittedly this second problem is very minor compared to the first one. The first one is a major blocking point against your whole suggestion, the second one is just a detail that can be ironed out.

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