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Let's talk about Shen's ultimate.

Melledoneus··68 votes·6,048 views

Stand United. Your allies are happily farming in bot lane, raging at each other peacefully with passive-aggressive pings about the support wanting to get relic shield procs on cannon minions when all of a sudden, the enemy jungler ganks bot. Now, you're wondering... how would they handle this since bot lane had already flashed in greed to try and get first blood? Well, fear not, my friend, since your top laner decided to play Shen instead of Fiora top. So you see your screen turn purple in the middle of your fight, Shen is coming to save the day.

You die.

What happened? You were level 6 while the enemy was level 5, the jungler was a level 4 Master Yi. Why didn't Shen's shield save you? Well, here's the real question.

Why can an ADC/melee carry tear through a global ultimate shield in 2-3 auto attacks?

250/550/850 HP shield. While it's all nice and dandy that Shen has a global teleport, 250 HP doesn't cut it anymore. Carries deal way too much damage in this meta, and aggressive junglers even more so. I've seen a level 6 Zed shred through the shield with one E-auto and kill my ally, who still had a third of their HP. I've seen the lucky crit of an ADC make the whole shield disappear. Late game, 850 HP is 2 seconds of an attack speed carry, or an Ahri Q. The ability is powerful, don't get me wrong. But the shield doesn't do enough to keep your allies alive.

#The Solution Here's the problem: the shield isn't enough to keep carries alive. Should we buff it? Hell yeah. Give it a good 50 HP at rank 1, ramp it up to 1k late game so that you can keep your carry alive for at least a second against that Master Yi. So... what should we nerf in particular? I'm going to piss off a lot of people when I say this... but AP Shen is dead. The only scalings he has are a 1% per 100 AP max hp damage on his Q and a 1.3 AP ratio on his ultimate. So, let's get rid of the AP ratio since Riot clearly doesn't like AP Shen, and just go the full mile to making him a bruiser/tank. Buff the shield values, remove the unnecessary scalings. Nobody will play AP Shen even during URF because going full tank gives him more damage on his E and more shield with his passive.

Now here's a random poll for your benefit.

107 Comments

Captain Aishi61 votes

how about you make a special case where shen's shield takes damage reduced by shen's resists instead of his target's?

Im Stereotypical2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Captain Aishi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0ONzXVEE,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-04-16T22:58:49.484+0000)

how about you make a special case where shen's shield takes damage reduced by shen's resists instead of his target's?

My thoughts exactly, Like level 6 Shen ult gives some HP and your shielded ally takes a small % reduced dmg. Kind like an Urgot Ult + W combo.

Captain Aishi29 votes

i'm not talking %damage reduction, these can be really tricky to balance properly, i'm literally saying that when you have shen's shield on you, your armor and MR values become the same as his, and as soon as the shield is broken or expires, you return to your own original values

that way a strong shen can have an enormous impact with his ult, but a team that invests into shutting a shen down will effectively diminish the strength of his ultimate as well as a reward for denying him gold for his defensive stats, making it a meaningful strategic decision during a game if you pull it off correctly

kile14719 votes

Probably easier to add his resists to the targets, or reword it so that the higher of the two values is used, so that Shen doesn't end up taking resists away in rare cases.

IGotScuttleCrabs5 votes

Just have his sword appear on the target so you can activate W for the AA dodge while channeling. Now you don't even need a numbers buff.

My Waifu Vanilla1 votes

Eh but if I get interrupted by something I do not want to wait 30 seconds for my Q to bring my sword back to me to top lane.

IGotScuttleCrabs1 votes

Might get a random assist in mid lane though [slayer-jinx-wink]

pwnyougood1 votes

@CaptainAishi this is such a great idea. As a shen main this would make a big difference!

Melledoneus9 votes

This is a wonderful idea. Another thing I'd like is that the %armor and MR ignores don't work against it, since technically Shen would be giving his ally stats without actually giving them.

Another idea is that Shen can use his W on his ally while channeling ult, or he redirects a % of the damage they take past the shield so that they don't blow up.

Bârd3 votes

Should probably be a "chooses the greater value" thing.

Lady Hammerlock2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Captain Aishi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0ONzXVEE,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-04-16T22:58:49.484+0000)

how about you make a special case where shen's shield takes damage reduced by shen's resists instead of his target's?

that sounds like a cool idea...

Troy24262119 votes

LOL passive-aggressive pings about relic shield procs. It's funny because it's 100% true.

chipndip17 votes

Why can someone tear through Shen's shield quickly?

Cause it's global and it's early game and a bunch of people are hitting the person you're ulting at the same time, most likely.

Supreme Senpai691 votes

Yeah I figure that's the one counterplay to it, it's supposed to be a weakness lol

My Waifu Vanilla1 votes

Weakness and completely situational or a huge gameble at level 6 are two very different things. It's counterplay is it has one of the longest cooldowns in the game for an ult (3 minutes is hella long) and is a 3 second channel before Shen even shows up. It can be interrupted by his laner or anyone on the map tbh (depends on where he is ulting from) and just is a glorified teleport at level 6. At least teleporting to a ward doesn't have the risk the ward my die so you are guarenteed to show up. The 250 shield will get blown away by most combos bot lane (Auto+any ability by an ADC or most supports poke ability plus anything else such as Bard Q+Meep).

OyddAWqJ5r7 votes

It's because it's supposed to be used as a preemptive measure rather than a surefire 100% damage block.

You should really only be able to save struggling allies, not dead ones.

I understand where you're coming from, but this can quickly be abused to change the opposing party's currently cautionary factor into an oppressive one, where the aggressors are completely disallowed to make any committed attempts on Shen's bot lane. Even just increasing it by 50 could be pushing it.

Melledoneus3 votes

While I see where you're coming from, Shen's ultimate is supposed to ward off assassins and diving fighters, and 1-2 people attacking that target shouldn't be enough to kill them at decent health. There's already lots of counterplay to Shen's ultimate, such as shifting focus fire, preparing hard CC, and keeping distance. In general, Shen's ultimate is very telegraphed and has one of the longest cooldowns in the game, meaning that once Shen uses it, his global presence is gone. It's an ability that's just as powerful when not used for that reason.

That being said, the new AD meta hurts Shen because armor pen and AD and abundant and a 250 health shield is just 1 more second of survival. It's disheartening to see allies disappear just as you finish channeling ult because Thunderlord's ate up half your shield. Or execution damage makes it disappear. Don't get me wrong, Shen's ult is flippin' amazing, but it needs some more oomph to be considered worthy of a 180 second cooldown.

OyddAWqJ5r3 votes

And I see where you're coming from as well. Perhaps the solution would actually be to make the target invulnerable but only for the channel. Or make the shield huge but only for the channel. Or even redirect half the damage to Shen during it.

Idk but the main point is to simply not numerically buff an already extremely powerful tool that is even more extreme in premade/LCS games.

Also as another post on another thread said: granting a buff icon over your allies head that is only visible to them when you have your camera over their heads would be an amazing buff to the ultimate for yoloqueue.

BLACK REALM GOD6 votes

ap shen is dead, but most tanks have that random "wtf do i buy for this crap" skill. it helps keep them balanced in a way that wont allow them to snowball the hp items and adds a LITTLE versatility. i think anyway. basically you're not wrong, but if you were to give him all physical damage then there'd be nothing magical about shen anymore. shen needs to be magical. ninjas are magical. like unicorns and turtles ^_^

Melledoneus2 votes

When I say that AP Shen is dead, I mean that building AP on Shen is as useful as building it on Riven. It's just pointless. What I want to happen is that the 1.3 AP scaling on Shen's ultimate is removed so they can allocate some power to the part people actually use.

Parceval2 votes

the random power allocations are silly, agreed. I think they do it to allow for the IDEA of off meta builds, even if they're just troll.

I mean, AP Jhin is "POSSIBLE"

Fishtaco3 votes

Mission Jhinpossible

Jalkan5 votes

You're not supposed to Shen ult your ally when he has 1 hp left.

Melledoneus5 votes

Because one-third HP is 1 HP.

Please, tell me about this champion that has 3 max HP.

Jalkan1 votes

Where do you mention one-third of anything in this post?

Melledoneus2 votes

Carries deal way too much damage in this meta, and aggressive junglers even more so. I've seen a level 6 Zed shred through the shield with one E-auto and kill my ally, who still had** a third of their HP**.

Here you go. :)

Myozthirirn1 votes

You are not supposed to shen ult when your adc has one third hp

Melledoneus2 votes

Sometimes my ADC doesn't realize that an unwarded river brush could hold an enemy jungler. But they think they're invincible anyway.

Supreme Senpai692 votes

I think it goes by the name of Sona

Melledoneus2 votes

Nah, nah. You're thinking of item 3340.

Aniela1 votes

Whoever it is, it pisses Jhin the f@!% off.

Melledoneus1 votes

Jhin "One, two three-" Dies Jhin Looks at fourth bullet in gun "Where's the fourth shot...? WHERE'S THE FOURTH SHOT?!?"

Keti4 votes

Shen doesn't really need buffs right now, if your ally barely died then ult sooner or don't waste it on teammates that are superduper caught.

-Diamond Shen Player

Sire Hippington4 votes

The fact that it's global and he ports is more than enough. if you don't use it on an aready lost case it does it's job well. Shen really doesn't need a buff to his ult, 70% of his power pudget allready is located in his ult and his overall performance doesn't seem to warrant buffs.

Melledoneus1 votes

I feel like the 1.3 AP ratio could be used elsewhere in his power budget.

Sire Hippington5 votes

the ap ratio hardly consumes any powerbudget at all, as she 99% of the time runs 0-ap. Riot stated that off ratios don't really consume powerbudget back when people asked wether Garen could loose his crit on E and regain the power elsewhere, since those ratios already don't get used in the majority of the games and thus the power is already balanced around not useing that ratio.

Shadòw4 votes

Shens ult is called "Stand United", not "Save your carry in every possible situation"

The ult is about the teleport, the shield is just supposed to be a little life saver, but it should not protect your ally for more than 2-3 aa's

BeatzBoyFTW3 votes

Til now, I still don't get Riot's intention of simply adding AP ratio on any moves such as Lucian's W or Gnar's ult. This does nothing but promotes unhealthy gameplay builds.

Imo, I rather have Shen's ult scale with his bonus HP instead of AP ratios. That way, his ult can finally be noticed of its strength & durability.

Eeyore3 votes

They could always give it a health ratio.

Let's say, 15 / 20 / 25 % (+5% per 100 AP) of Shen's maximum health.

Melledoneus2 votes

That would deny him build variety, forcing him to build HP (although that's basically what everyone builds on him anyway), so those 3 or 4 people that play him full AD would complain.

StankyMuff3 votes

I don't think increased shielding is the answer. An 800 hp shield on a lategame ADC can be a huge gamechanger. Sure the enemy ADC can pop it like a balloon, but it will allow your ADC to survive burst damage or win trades they shouldn't have.

The real issue is how Shen's ult becomes useless after 30 minutes when literally everyone and their mother is pushing mid. It goes from being able to turn 2 deaths bot lane into a triple kill in your favor, no matter where on the map you are, to being literally useless.

I'm not sure how to fix this but it's the real problem. Shen's ultimate would be strong early game even if it didn't give a shield at all. The real power is in the global range and when everyone is in one spot it's useless.

LatetotheRace2 votes

As much as I really don't like when shen pops in to say hello, I 100% agree that the shield is abysmal. It really could use a touch up.

Evewynn1 votes

I actually enjoy playing bulky AP Shen mid, so I definitely would be sad if his ratios got hit

Melledoneus8 votes

AP Shen's ratios are terrible. You'd be better off playing him attack speed devourer than AP at this point.

Evewynn1 votes

Lich bane and nashor gives him surprising burst over three autos, and his shield actually does something :')

Ariel the Cruel4 votes

You mean the passive shield that scales on health, or the ult shield with 300 second CD?

Evewynn1 votes

well it's a lot lower late game, and nashor gives 20% cdr

Ariel the Cruel2 votes

The problem with AP Shen is that's it is inferior in almost every way to alternative build paths. Old Shen chose between AP for bulk and AD for damage. New Shen builds AP for situational %health magic damage. But overall DPS is still higher for an AD bruiser/juggernaut build. Bruiser builds also boast more health options than AP, which makes his passive shield stronger. AD is also better for wave clear, since AP has to keep spamming Q which will drain his energy pool. Seeing as Shen is the only energy champion that realistically has to manage that thing, this becomes an issue. The only reason to spec into his AP builds is for tank shredding and his ult. If you're tank shredding, you'll need to spec into magic pen as well which takes away from better tank options. So now you're gimping yourself to buy stats that can only be situationaly used. While nobody can deny the power of Shen's ult (global map pressure OP), it has incredible down time. This is made worse if your acting as a tank with little bulk. If you're picking him for the ult, you're better off picking Soraka. At least until she gets gutted again.

I like The possibility of AP Shen. I played old Shen AP most of the time (He was also my first rank 5 champion). But on current Shen, there is no practical advantage to building AP.

Axis the Dragon1 votes

You might as well play Lich + Luden's into bruiser gragas and deal similar damage in one W proc.

There's not much point to ap shen mid anymore after his only range poke was removed.

Getting map pressure is nice but I prefer TF's point and click stun. Shen top still hits 6 at a pretty similar time to Top, anyway, so if you want to play him ap bruiser you can play him top.

Plus you have zero waveclear. IIRC the only mid Champions played with low waveclear are assassins, and even they're not that terrible at it. The only non-assassins I can think of in that situation are Urgot, who's an extremely niche counter pick, and Ezreal, who has a) stupid amounts of kite and strong poke/sustained range damage when AD or b) huge, assassin-level damage with ap

Mid bruisers (when built like that, anyway) tend to have some form of waveclear to not fall behind in lane in CS (Diana, Gragas, Ekko).

The only thing I can think of AP Bruiser Shen mid would be good at is for counterpicking. But who would he counterpick? Diana, maybe? Akali?

Tobias Brackner1 votes

The shield is plenty to keep people alive.

Unless they are ccompletely surrounded by the enemy team and have no resistances.

At that point I think it is fair that the enemy get that kill despite the power of friendship.

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