Hey Riot, can we have a serious discussion on why Mordekaiser had to become a duo laner

Malicious Metal··58 votes·2,834 views

Some ground rules first! We tend to be a bit too sarcastic and tend to come off too (passive)aggressive and most threads aren't exactly the pinnacle of civilized discussion so please, let us be a bit more objective, if only for this one time. Thanks

Anyhow...

We all know there was a huge uproar about Mordekaiser becoming a duo laner and his solo lane becoming a very sore sight following the rework in patch 5.16. While recent patches tried to amend this by trying to give good ol' Solokaiser some power back Riot still adamantly thinks mordekaiser should be a duo laner and should be thus balanced around it.

So, before we lynch anyone let's try to get down the pro's and cons of his duo lane.

More healthy than solo lane(?) One of the more common arguments is the question of game health. Mordekaiser was rather unfun to lane against, there's no denying it. He had counterplay, yes, but still, playing against him wasn't really all teas, biscuits and butterflies.

Yet with his rework this pattern of E-spam and endless shield gain has been toned down. His new E not hitting as hard and him spamming it too much resulting in him pushing too hard and even "poking" himself with its rather high health cost.

Interaction between the laners is important for healthy gameplay so riot decided to put him bot where there are three more people he has to interact with. Fair enough, yet whenever Morde's a decent pick he'll be obnoxious for both the enemy and his support having to put up with his play style of being a bully.

His top lane on the other hand seems to be less oppressive than pre-rework and his duo lane. It's a one on one scenario where Morde has to rely on his own skill and strategies to come out on top. It's the place of brawlers, which is exactly where he wants to be.

Who truly wants to play as/against/with Morde? Or "where's the fun in that?"

Enemies don't like to play against Mordekaiser. And who can blame them? Most marksmen players are accustomed to farm lanes where they try to survive until late game or use their supports to engage on the enemy squishy AD and kill them. Mordekaiser is something else. He is durable, he outlevels them simply by playing the game, which seems rather unfair and he's out for blood. Paired up with a good support Morde's hell to lane against as an ADC and support.

Your allies are also negatively impacted by being forced to pick tank supports and ADC's in other positions if you don't want to lose if the game gets dragged out. A lot of people want to play what they like to. If a soraka/janna/sona main gets paired with a Morde both are going to have a bad time since their lane will be in a huge disadvantage simply because they picked something with no synergy. Other marksmen can work with any kind of support but synergize better with other supports but Morde HAS to be paired with a tank support to get the job done.

Mordekaiser players also face troubles that simply suck the fun out of the game for them. They have to live with the disadvantage of having way less range and getting AA'd from 500+ range feels bad, that's why most top laners despise ranged champions invading their territory. Morde is also relies heavily on his support, more so than any other duo laner and it sucks to have to rely on others more than yourselves especially of you don't even know your duo lane partner.

Who's the target audience? Who does Mordekaiser appeal to? He's a tanky damage dealer with no mobility and limited range. He likes to brawl, he's a bruiser.

Hmm... where are those guys played? Usually in solo lanes if I recall correctly. Top laners know their matchups up top and tend to like to brawl in a one on one scenario and yet Morde, a bruiser, has to roll bot where the dynamics are completely different than top. This is why over 60% of all Morde players play him top or Mid as it currently stands.

So what about ADC mains, they like to roll duo and carry games, right? Yeah, but they're used to having range, to be squishy and have mobility, they're damage pumps and no tanks.

It will also lead to very confusing scenarios in ranked. If I call ADC and want Morde bot and he gets banned I'm going to be forced to play an ADC even though bruisers and tanks are my speciality.

Maybe I'm just biased But I'd love to discuss the reasoning behind Duo lane Mordekaiser and if it's the right thing to do when considering what truly counts in a game; Having FUN

46 Comments

Big Lincoln9 votes

I don't think Mord being an oppressive lane bully can be a valid excuse to nerf him when Lucian MissFortune are both unfair to lane against and also scale monstrously hard, and have gotten tiny slaps on the wrist so far

at least Mord's damage is in melee range and is burst-only; these two will nuke you in a short combo and then follow up with DPS

He needs a big rework to properly be healthy. And hopefully another reclassing, because I can't say I care for him being the same "build tank" health-stacker as the other meathead juggernauts

Dracocrash1 votes

Lucian hasn't exactly gotten "tiny slaps"

iamleburk1 votes

Yea he needs a rework. His laning mid was unhealthy, which is why they reworked him in the first place. Of course, they conveniently forget to fix that one thing, the main reason he is unhealthy in the first place. They had a good idea going here with the juggernauts, Morde should be an unkillable but kiteable machine, at least in a team fight. And you can give him SOME utility, maybe "mark a target with Q, allies do extra damage to marked targets". Just no CC, no mobility, and no range.

He should also have some lifesteal on his kit. I think they were right about this part, but i dont like the way they implemented it. Laning you can give him healthy windows of oppurtunity with his passive shield, maybe give him some lifesteal from an E-Q combo. W i feel should be useless in lane, but really powerful with allies around, just because i think it would fuck over too many other melee champs if it was powerful in lane. But i think his late game power should be a lot to do with his W.

Void Nargacuga6 votes

The more I see and read your Mordekaiser threads the more I also want to know what RIOT's thoughts are on him. Ill stick around in case a RIOTER comes by! Ignore Akatsuki Deidara just a salty spammer (sadly).

blfUvZ8Ybu1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bow hunter 16,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0Jna9JR5,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-01-09T00:50:48.938+0000)

The more I see and read your Mordekaiser threads the more I also want to know what RIOT's thoughts are on him. Ill stick around in case a RIOTER comes by! Ignore Akatsuki Deidara just a salty spammer (sadly).

I'm saying op champs;Lux,Diana,Ahri,Mundo,Malphite,Trundle.Ok? Now you don't talk about mine.

Void Nargacuga4 votes

Simple question then: If they are that OP why aren't you playing them?

I honestly don't care what someone plays as long as that player is good at playing them.

Jonxx4 votes

I'll answer that. I don't like to play op champions, because they still take a bit time to learn to use them properly, and because I don't have much time on my hands I won't waste time on champions that'll get nerfed eventually.

Void Nargacuga4 votes

I can agree with you on that! Though at the same time I try to find champions that I just enjoy playing no matter what happens to them, or what kind of flak I will end up getting for playing them (see Yasuo & Zed I am NOT great at them though I admit). I like Learning how to play them because I just enjoy their respective playstyles.

I just don't like seeing people complain over and over about an OP champion, but when you ask them why it usually comes down to they got beat by them and don't want to learn how to deal with them. Though some people are willing to actually ask for help on learning to deal with said champions they had trouble playing against. Unless it makes absolute sense like when the juggernaut update came out and they were pretty much banned most games. Yikes was that kinda terrifying!

Spoofghoul2 votes

''but when you ask them why it usually comes down to they got beat by them'' I find this strawman argument just anoying so i had to point it out because everyone seems to be using this argument these days. If nobody got beat by them they would not be overpowered now would they, and then no one would be whining unless for buffs but thats another story.

Void Nargacuga1 votes

I'm guessing you have seen a lot of that strawman argument then? I'm still fairly new because I joined on patch 5.6 though. I've heard of the complaint of "Yasuo is an easy mode OP champion." I know that is bull shit after playing him. Target CC ruins him as I have learned (forgot that Pantheon had that shudders kinda wrecked me in mid). I am by NO MEANS great at him but I have to learn his stuff first hand, though I have taken him through bots often enough to know his basics to a decent degree. But that doesn't really give you a good idea of what players are like. So now I have started taking him into Norms/TB in hopes to better learn what champions he (and I) struggle against while playing him.

I'd rather ask about what makes a champion strong and what are some things that I can do to make these matchups easier for me to handle, or even ask for advice to beat them.

blfUvZ8Ybu1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bow hunter 16,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0Jna9JR5,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2016-01-09T01:25:24.639+0000)

Simple question then: If they are that OP why aren't you playing them?

I honestly don't care what someone plays as long as that player is good at playing them.

My main champion aren't these..I'm playing smurf account with this champs and these are op.

charcharmunro2 votes

Lux is a bit overbearing to fight against if the Lux is good/your ping is high/you're bad. Same for Diana. Ahri feels a bit cheesy sometimes, sure, but, eh. Mundo's been toned down enough that his early-game is no longer as godlike. Malphite's counter is "have a mage". Trundle has no mobility, you can kite him for days.

blfUvZ8Ybu1 votes

{quoted}

Lux is a bit overbearing to fight against if the Lux is good/your ping is high/you're bad. Same for Diana. Ahri feels a bit cheesy sometimes, sure, but, eh. Mundo's been toned down enough that his early-game is no longer as godlike. Malphite's counter is "have a mage". Trundle has no mobility, you can kite him for days.

This champions have very little weakness.All op.

Kingsgrave1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bow hunter 16,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0Jna9JR5,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-01-09T00:50:48.938+0000)

The more I see and read your Mordekaiser threads the more I also want to know what RIOT's thoughts are on him. Ill stick around in case a RIOTER comes by! Ignore Akatsuki Deidara just a salty spammer (sadly).

We already know all of their thoughts on him but everyone wants them to repeat it constantly

ZzEslIolZQ5 votes

Cause certainlyT needed to feel special

MrSlowDie4 votes

I don't mind with solokaiser, but It will be a great pleasure if duokaiser works. I tend to play tanky champion, and ADC is the only place I can't go tanky. The tankiest ADC I can get is graves, and I can't play him forever. And then urgot, and he's trash in botlane, he's just toplaner that was picked in bot lane because he could bully ADC, and since his bully-ness was nerfed, he no longer viable in bot lane.

now it leaves me with morde. though not mature, I really hope duokaiser can be viable so I can play him botlane without being flamed

Silents4294 votes

I like you, for one thing I am going to go batshit crazy if I have to hear another main defend there broken champion like they are perfect.

Morde had a niche, but he wasn't in a great spot and needed changes.

In my opinion, Morde needs a Poppy level rework, with the way his kit is setup and functions, they can't do much with what they have to make a functioning champion that is fun to play and play against.

So the question should be, what ability/passive would you be okay with getting rid of and what would you replace it with if they had to?

Poppy lost her broken ult, her passive was moved to her W? I think but with a lighter touch to it, but she got to keep her stun at least. Sion kept his shield and HP stacking.

LF Annie2 votes

poppy lost more than abilities, she lost her identity that she had built over years of existing.

Kingsgrave7 votes

[{quoted}](name=LF Annie,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0Jna9JR5,comment-id=00140000,timestamp=2016-01-09T19:48:22.744+0000)

poppy lost more than abilities, she lost her identity that she had built over years of existing.

Her identity was broken. Just because something exists for a long time doesn't mean it's good.

LF Annie2 votes

they could have changed her kit without changing her to a back line peel oriented kit.

Silents4291 votes

They could have gone a lot of routes, you just happen to be amongst the small crowd unpleased with the results.

Retillin1 votes

It's not a small crowd. It's just that the crowd understood that her Ult/passive were not healthy.

She should have been a juggernaut-like champion. A powerful beast if on you. But someone with very little tools to stay on them. The fact that she is just a peel bot now is really disheartening, at least to me.

Silents4291 votes

She should or could have been a lot of things, what she became is still good. Can't please everyone.

ltmetal3 votes

I would love to see Mordekaiser work in a duo lane. Don't downvote me yet, just finish reading. I main aggressive, tanky champions who prefer to all-in instead of snipe, kite, and poke. Mordekaiser was the first legitimate attempt by the ChampUp team to cater to players like me who want to play a durable melee carry in a duo lane instead of the traditional ranged damage marksman. It would be fantastic for everyone who plays Morde if he could be played in a duo lane WITHOUT SACRIFICING HIS SOLO LANE. The method used to make Mordekaiser viable in duo lanes was eliminating a bunch of his solo lane presence (waveclear, shield strength) and putting it into seemingly random, mostly invisible, ridiculously snowbally band-aid solutions (attack range, bonus XP, dragon ghost, ally heal). Such methods should not be necessary to make a champion work in a specific lane. I still have a dream that Mordekaiser can be viable and interactive in both solo and duo lanes. I have a dream that Morde can work in a duo lane without needing snowball mechanics or excessive hidden power. I have a dream (though I know this is probably never going to actually happen) that Morde will receive another rework where his base abilities and stats are changed without feeling like he's being forced into a role or position to get the most out of those abilities.

TL;DR Everyone can be happy. Solo lane veterans, tank mains, and the ChampUp team can all get what they want. We shouldn't have to choose only one lane to balance Morde around.

forresto1 votes

they actually kindve tried to do that last patch. they changed his w so you dont require a nearby ally to use the 2nd cast/heal. I imagine if they did that, they're gonna keep watching it and dispense more band-aids as needed.

Kosomic3 votes

I never saw the bot lane rework lasting very long. He worked there for a time because Riot gave him plain disgusting advantages before the nerf hammer arrived. Now there is no real reason to have Morde over an ADC bot lane making his role there unnecessary. So we all bring him top where he can live up there but the early game is rough. You don't have the damage for real shield gain and most top laners will have more sustain than you.

Oddly enough the role i take him in now is jungle of all places. This is because is heal on his W is 100% on monsters and being resourceless, at level 4 you basically never need to back unless you want to. His ganks are surprisingly good with the movement speed buff and the raw amount of damage you bring makes up for the lack of cc. But why play him over an actual jungler you might ask? Well the best part of Morde jungle is the insne amount of objective control you have. Solo dragon at level 6 and now with your ghost you have many options.

  1. Gank with it
  2. do a dual gank (you head bot lane for a gank while your dragon ganks mid)
  3. seige a turret
  4. solo rift herald
  5. hunt down the enemy jungler for an easy kill.

His down side is the gamepley is very binary and you are weak to counter jungling early game.

I'm not saying that he should be reworked as a jungler whatsoever, I'm just pointing out a looked over role Riot unintentionally made that makes up for his now weaker early game.

Anyways keep up the good work M.M you know we all support you.

ZT Xperimentor3 votes

Can't wait to hear some honest developer answers. [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

blfUvZ8Ybu2 votes

Because counter pick for Diana.Riot didn't want this case.

TotalJerk2 votes

The gist of it is that they rushed out 4 reworks at the same time and told CertainlyT to reinvent the wheel. T's alright when he's improving on something that actually works by itself (Caitlyn rework, Zyra), but when it isn't working, he forces it.

The only reason Yasuo has double crit and a Q that scales with attacks speed is because there's no way he would buy those stats otherwise, he was basically an AD caster they tried to force to be a melee ADC. Kalista's mobility was probably making her see play top lane, so he tied a chunk of her damage output to her W passive and made her require a specific teammate for her ult to function.

Mordekaiser had to go botlane and it just wasn't working within the time constraints he was given soooo... W passive and dragon.

I honestly had no problem with Riot trying to encourage a Melee carry to go botline, but it's clearly they spent all of 5 minutes thinking about how to accomplish this with the first champion they saw an opportunity for. This is akin to the Cassiopeia rework in that it was rushed to meet the deadline for an event (The Juggernaut update) but to make matters worse, Riot's design team saw fit to divide their resource between 4 champions at the same time.

RedCyclone2 votes

To say I can play Riven vs someone who mains their champion as much as you do, and not get completely annihilated feels pretty unjust if you ask me

Since I don't see much of Morde anymore, let alone toplane Morde, i didn't really know what to expect Compared to old Mordekaiser he is not so great...So much more pressure and zoning could be applied by old morde, the guy who actually loved it when the enemy adc got anywhere near fed because that meant he was going to take their ghost and do some pretty crazy things

It's quite sad to see him in this awful state, I hope you get your answers from Riot soon

Vhalthoria1 votes

{quoted}

To say I can play Riven vs someone who mains their champion as much as you do, and not get completely annihilated feels pretty unjust if you ask me

Since I don't see much of Morde anymore, let alone toplane Morde, i didn't really know what to expect Compared to old Mordekaiser he is not so great...So much more pressure and zoning could be applied by old morde, the guy who actually loved it when the enemy adc got anywhere near fed because that meant he was going to take their ghost and do some pretty crazy things

It's quite sad to see him in this awful state, I hope you get your answers from Riot soon

Riot doesn't have answers for what they done to Morde. They only have empty promises and prays that we are gonna be satisfied with whatever piece of shit update they throw in the way. We are mad, we are violent, we expect blood to be pay for these atrocities we have to take from them. That is what is happening.

Melledoneus2 votes

We all know the real reason why Riot made Mordekaiser a duo laner.

It was for GRRRRREAT... SCIENCE! TYPICAL MAD SCIENTIST CACKLE

SaltyToplaneGoat2 votes

I really admire your peristence Malicious.

Take this from a Cassiopaia fan who has fallen into the depths of despair and resignation already: DON'T GIVE UP! YOU CAN DO IT! KEEP UP THE FIGHT!

The Yetii Rider2 votes

The core issue with Mordekaiser in a solo lane is not that he pushes waves constantly or that he gains shield forever. It's that if he gets a kill, there are now 2 people in his lane pushing turrets instead of 1.

If he gets a kill in bot lane, there are 3 people pushing turret and one person defending it (though his support might have died in the skirmish, so it could just be 2v1).

Mordekaiser in solo lanes removes the concept of "You have to defend your turrets" because you become the one destroying them. And turrets provide no safe haven against Mordekaiser because he can damage you under turret as long as you don't retreat out of leash range (and if you do, he just shoves the wave and takes turret anyway).

Solo laners can be good at split pushing, but not at destroying outer towers pretty much immediately, and definitely not at "Push up, pressure tower until 6, get a kill, finish that turret and then take 2nd tier before anyone even realizes what's happening".

Towers provide global gold, XP, and now, stronger minions. Mordekaiser's interaction with tower pushing is too toxic in solo queue where the only counterplay is swift communication and instant reactions to defend the turret against him and his ghost.

Jason the other2 votes

they wanted mord to be a solo laner to give him some kind of uniqueness to set him off from the other jungernauts personnally i think being an ap jungernaut is good enough but riot made him a duo laner

BroLane1 votes

Dude just give up. He'll never be the Mordekaiser we know and love. Old Morde was a niche and slightly toxic but fun bruiser to play. His wave clear was really good and he felt like a bruiser. The rework comes around and Riot almost completely ruins his identity. His waveclear is nerfed, and he's given new visual effects that quite frankly suck. He's forced into the bottom lane and his role is changed to marksman (DESPITE THE FACT THAT HE ISN'T RANGED WHAT THE HELL). CertaintlyT then does what he's best at, making kits that are incredibly toxic and hurt the game overall (In this case while making Mordekaiser boring to play.) New Mordekaiser is banned in competitive because he is disgustingly overpowered and makes bot lane incredibly one sided. Riot, like usual, fails to see that their rework did more harm then good to the champion, and refuses to undo the rework until massive bitching is created on reddit and boards(See Fiora, Cassiopeia, and the other juggernauts). Of course they nerf his capacities to duo--lane and his solo lane capacities are still extremely weak. Mordekaiser is reduced to a troll pick at this point. He's going to stay this way too, until a couple of years pass until some shmuck either reworks him again, or they just undo it. It sucks that your main is in such a bad spot, but there is nothing you can do other than find a new main.

Caytheles1 votes

Mord seems fine as a duo laner imo. has clear weaknesses and strengths.

Annoxis1 votes

I have written my mind about Mordekaiser here. It was too long for a post on this board. http://textup.fr/150883Z4

Please, read it, and share your thoughts.

Decrit1 votes

Isn't this a bit redoundant? They already exposed what they expected to do with him, at different time points, well more than once.

Even if i agree that the matter wqs not discussed as much as necessary.

Also, to be honest, given the scope of the things amd their impact i thin that you won' t get answers by comment because they will likely avoid doing half assed things and want to do a proper thread or a blog post. Not wanting to sound offensive... but a comment is not the best place at all to start a discussion or to require depth knowledge of what you are asking, probably.

At least it might serve to attract some attenction, but i hardly believe it is not already on their scope.

Dengeden1 votes

The answer is twofold: -Because solo Morde was objectively bad. -No, we can't discuss this because Morde's W is castable on minions next patch, completely pushing his kit out of the duo lane (if he so desires). And for some reason, everyone but Malicious Metal is steadfastly ignoring this.

KarKzz1 votes

He need the shitton of advantages he have to be viable (OutXP + Tanky + Highdamage). So he is either totaly overwhelming , or bad. And like you said, he also need the right support, and the right teamcomp. Morde don't outplay you, he win because he have so much advantages in his kit. And he need those to be viable bot. And since those got nerfed, he is now pretty bad and not played anymore.

CertainlyT didn't add more mechanics, he just "fixed" morde weaknesses (at the cost of making him dependent on a support) so he can go bot.

The reworks is a failure, you can expect morde to be kept "unviable" until his next rework.

fractalfantasies1 votes

Get rid of the experience buff and balance him around that.

Right now, if he has the experience buff other things have to be weak enough such that his duo laning is not OP, which means that he solo laning is kept under par.

The Bíg Ticket1 votes

Because he destroyed Zed, FIzz, Talon, Diana, Akali, Katarina and every other assassin mid.

Teridax681 votes

Mordekaiser needed more time, and I think that would have given him the opportunity to remain the strong solo laner he should've always been. His kit did and still does have serious counterplay issues, with his E imo being the biggest problem (spamming it in lane against a melee opponent isn't fun for them and doesn't give them that many options to fight back), but fixing that would've likely required far deeper changes than what could've been accomplished within the limited time frame the Juggernaut designers had to change their champions. As a result, the changes he received were likely the best that could've been done with the time and tech CertainlyT had, but forced him into duo laning because there was no real way of making him a solo laner and a healthy champion at the same time with those limited resources.

In many ways, this looks a lot like the Cassiopeia update, which also felt similarly rushed to fit a tight schedule when it needed a lot more time and iteration to truly succeed, and for that reason I hope Riot does take their time before majorly changing Morde again. In spite of the frustration it might cause, it would be a lot better for Morde to be left in the state he is now until he gets the glorious update he deserves, rather than him constantly being bent out of shape by a quicker stream of incomplete reworks. I'm a big Skarner fan, and while I'm not perfectly satisfied with his current state, I'd rather wait for him to be turned to perfection eventually -- even if it takes a long, long while -- than have his fourth (!) rework miss the mark and require further follow-up.

i am spartta1 votes

toooooooooooooooooooo long item 3070 item 3070 im gonna go crazy

iamleburk1 votes

The thing about the laning is such a cop out. Yes, Morde's lane was BS before... that's what the rework is supposed to fix. Stop making excuses and do your job. The Q change was good imo, but that's about it.

The identity of morde should always be stupid damage and tankiness, no range or CC. He is the true juggernaut. But that doesn't work in lane too well, so you MAKE it work in lane by giving his shield more healthy windows of power. Make his W weak early but powerful late, give him a damage amp somewhere for his allies, give him a damage amp himself against CC'ed targets. Give his ghosts a movement speed buff and let them go through terrain. Make it so being next to a morde in a teamfight is an immediate death sentence.

Also, Riot, just because the guy doesn't need CC, doesn't mean you can't give him utility. Let one of his abilities mark the target and allow allies to lifesteal or do extra damage to the target or slow the target or get a movement speed buff towards the target.

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