I'm a man of reason. Here's what I think ACTUALLY needs to be dealt with in the game rn.

chipndip1··101 votes·17,358 views

Lethal Tempo/Press the Attack: One of these need to go. The overlap is too much and one or the other is going to outdo the other one at all times. One of the two needs to get the boot. Personally, I think Lethal Tempo is the healthier option out of the two. Instead of just granting free damage from all sources for AA'ing someone a bit, it rewards sticking to your opponents and maxing out your reward from the rune. Either way, one needs to go.

Dark Harvest: This is the reason why I made this thread, honestly. This rune needs to be altered. Burst damage from a source like this should not infinitely scale, and games where this thing's fantasy is realized are beyond miserable. WELL beyond miserable. Games where a Dark Harvest champ pops off are just INSANELY snowbally since that guy basically has "Electrocute on steroids 5.2 edition". Predator is nice because it's mostly used for the speed. Electrocute is nice because it's the more generalized damage option. Dark Harvest, even if it's the scaling option, should NOT infinitely scale. Either scrap the rune or work with it a bit so it can be capped somewhere.

Conqueror: It may be overtuned. Idk for sure. True damage gets people's panties all bunched up, regardless of details, but true damage conversion on top of bonus AD on top of it constantly refreshing for fighters might be harsh. You could dial down either the refreshing thing or hit the true damage a bit...maybe by 5%. Make it so the refresh caps at 6 or 9 seconds? Idk, but address it a little bit, not too much.

Marksmen: Here's what I think on the subject. Ultimately, the result of the changes made were amazing. Don't move the finish line back, Riot. However, you may need to smooth out the track. Nerfing crit synergy was the smart play, same for nerfing the Zeal items...but all the changes as a whole were heavy-handed. Maybe you guys could tackle the recipe for Infinity Edge so it's easier to work with somehow? Maybe tackle Zeal's pricing (not the things it builds into, just Zeal itself)? Idk, but I think the reason why crit marksmen are so devastated right now is because making to your build's checkpoints (unless the enemy ints) is the real killer.

Also, marksmen are way too closely linked to bot lane. More marksmen should be tackled and dealt with so they aren't too crummy in solo lanes.

Damage in general: This is a very complicated topic.

  • Some of this is actually true. Front-loaded damage has, once again, become an issue at the forefront of the boards. This time around, it isn't from crits landing 800 damage on someone's head. This time it's from lethality-users like Rengar jumping out the band-o in attack mode and removing someone from play. Now, this is kind of the community's fault. Riot realized that people didn't like being 1-shot like hell, so they slowed down assassins with burst patterns that were faster than the likes of Zed and Fizz. In the case of some of these guys, the boards complained incessantly, and Riot changed them back. Now we're in an earlier game meta, where assassins are picked, and well, people are pissed...AGAIN...over a problem we already solved, then went back and made into a problem again. What can we even do about it?

  • Some of this is actually the usual whining we always see. League is a snowbally game. If Zed gets 2 or 3 kills and some good farm, he's GONNA pop you if you're a mage or a carry pick. That isn't new, so don't act surprised. It's his job. If you draft bad or build shit builds, you reap what you sow. Sure, you could say "Games shouldn't be over in champ sele-" this is partly a strategic game. In strategic games, unit selection is as important as unit utilization. If you can't understand that, blame yourself. Sure, you COULD win going LeBlanc into Kassadin...but we highly doubt it. Some match-ups are good, and some suck dick. That's any game with characters in it, not just League. Like, I just had a game with a Talon that was whining about being popped by Syndra all game, and when I told him "Build a drinker", he bought item 1036 item 1036 item 3134. Like...come on...

Anywho, if you ask me, I think that Riot should nerf lethality a bit. Not a whole lot, but a few bits. They should also buff Exhaust or nerf Ignite. No, they should NOT just nerf damage as a whole. That'll be a massive buff to tanks and supports. Think before you guys circle-jerk.

That's it for my thoughts. Short story of each:

  • Dark Harvest is toxic or useless.
  • Lethal Tempo and PtA just can't coexist.
  • Conqueror can use a slight power down.
  • Marksmen itemization is a little too harsh on crit marksmen.
  • Some marksmen could do some good being liberated from bot lane and Riot should look into making that happen.
  • Damage is kinda "bleh" atm, I'd agree. It's not solely Riot's fault and the community is cancerous as hell for constantly blaming the balance team for their shitty decision making.

85 Comments

ModWulf Helhammer35 votes

Actually fairly reasonable post. I commend you.

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

chipndip110 votes

It's what I do.

Takejin1 votes

Remove unsealed spellbook. stop making boring-looking champions, lets add some colors to the game. champions like pyke or tahm kench look like shit. nerf aatrox nerf zoe rework volibear and million other things can be done that i forgot cuz its late.

Z3Sleeper3 votes

{quoted}

nerf aatrox

???? 46% winrate

Chembaron Yamada1 votes

46%? In the Jungle, yes, but his Top and Mid winrate are way higher. And Aatrox is oftenly picked in pro play, he is strong and most likely too strong. They overbuffed him with the hotfix, just because people refused to learn his new kit first before demanding buffs.

Z3Sleeper1 votes

50.8%?

Additionally, both OP.GG and Champion.GG are showing very different statistics than Lolalytics. Don't know which is more accurate.

noodles0731 votes

People refuse to learn him, so they demanded buffs on release.

Dokueki Kenshin1 votes

I second this. Take my upvote.

VG Crows12 votes

Crit marksmen aren't good right now because they actually need to SCALE later in the game. And as of now,anything that isn't early game focused gets overwhelmed and destroyed by other early game sources.

CaptainAntiHeroz11 votes

Damage is bleh and I the Lulu main shall now watch as my adc gets ganged by the truedamere (conquerer Tryndamere for the uninformed) and the Swain Brand bot lane as I stay in Base debating on risking trying to actually fight thatitem 3303 and or where I'd even be able to collect the coins from item 3301 .... However never dissuaded the Klepto Tank Lulu always wins.... Somehow....item 3800 This explains how consistent the meta is right now lol

DlXON4 votes

Hey I thought this was funny, then I read your post history 😂. Very funny, keep it up!

CaptainAntiHeroz4 votes

{quoted}

Hey I thought this was funny, then I read your post history 😂. Very funny, keep it up!

Thanks I try my best to support the community with high quality entertainment [slayer-pantheon-popcorn] And then I go try things like Xayah support with glacial and item 3078
😐😑😶😏 Gotta keep the steaks up and interesting ya feel me? Lol -Update- IT WORKED 1/1/6 A- Glacial Xayah EZPZ

Śhunpo1 votes

{quoted}

Damage is bleh and I the Lulu main shall now watch as my adc gets ganged by the truedamere (conquerer Tryndamere for the uninformed) and the Swain Brand bot lane as I stay in Base debating on risking trying to actually fight thatitem 3303 and or where I'd even be able to collect the coins from item 3301 .... However never dissuaded the Klepto Tank Lulu always wins.... Somehow....item 3800 This explains how consistent the meta is right now lol

How does a Trynd do that to your ADC when you're Lulu who has 4 peel abilities?

CaptainAntiHeroz3 votes

{quoted}

How does a Trynd do that to your ADC when you're Lulu who has 4 peel abilities?

4? Lulu doesn't have 4 peel abilities She has a slow, polymorph and a knock His e ignores closes the distance anyway, polymorph only lasts so long, and if you have to ult to knock up he's probably already nearly killed your carry Plus the slow is weak

Also I never said I only play LuluRakan Soraka Leona Sona

Śhunpo1 votes

{quoted}

4? Lulu doesn't have 4 peel abilities She has a slow, polymorph and a knock His e ignores closes the distance anyway, polymorph only lasts so long, and if you have to ult to knock up he's probably already nearly killed your carry Plus the slow is weak

Also I never said I only play LuluRakan Soraka Leona Sona

I count her E as a peel ability, as well as Locket and Frost Queen's/Talisman.

But yeah fair enough.

CaptainAntiHeroz3 votes

{quoted}

I count her E as a peel ability, as well as Locket and Frost Queen's/Talisman.

But yeah fair enough.

If you buy locket on Lulu you're wasting your time, unless your actually building tanky. Especially when it's true damage and locket only gives resistances not health. Her e is either a shield or true sight/damage so unless you buyitem 3116 you're not peeling with your e. Because seeing the thing deleting my hp doesn't make him stop deleting my hp, I'd honestly rather not see him. At best there'ssummoner 3 buuuuuuuut

I mean exhaust doesn't make the Tryndamere go away sooooooo Shrug Riot buff support items 2018? I hope so. And buff Karma....

50000000000000002 votes

I think they meant the shield as a peel.

imo heals/shields are on the borderline for "peeling," since it doesn't actually keep the carry and diver apart, but it does mitigate the damage and make sure carry stays alive longer.

CaptainAntiHeroz1 votes

{quoted}

I think they meant the shield as a peel.

imo heals/shields are on the borderline for "peeling," since it doesn't actually keep the carry and diver apart, but it does mitigate the damage and make sure carry stays alive longer.

Not 5 seconds longer against a Trynda rip Maybe a Janna shield cuz hers is HUGE Definitely not a Morgana or Karma shield (but Morgana likely wouldn't get dove by a smart Tryndamere anywayitem 3157 ) Guardian shields may vary But I guess ....returns to the dark corner to wait for support item change suggestion response from Rito

ModCaptainMårvelous9 votes

Dark Harvest: This is the reason why I made this thread, honestly. This rune needs to be altered. Burst damage from a source like this should not infinitely scale, and games where this thing's fantasy is realized are beyond miserable. WELL beyond miserable. Games where a Dark Harvest champ pops off are just INSANELY snowbally since that guy basically has "Electrocute on steroids 5.2 edition". Predator is nice because it's mostly used for the speed. Electrocute is nice because it's the more generalized damage option. Dark Harvest, even if it's the scaling option, should NOT infinitely scale. Either scrap the rune or work with it a bit so it can be capped somewhere.

Completely agree on this. DH has always been either an absolutely useless rune (Why go DH when I can get elec and just, y'know, get my damage off right away) or it's so powerful that you're getting chunked. Predominantly,surprise surprise, on ARAM where you could get high stacks as fast as 150+ at ten minutes.

If you want to fulfill the scaling assassin gimmick, there are better ways to do it.

Now, this is kind of the community's fault. Riot realized that people didn't like being 1-shot like hell, so they slowed down assassins with burst patterns that were faster than the likes of Zed and Fizz. In the case of some of these guys, the boards complained incessantly, and Riot changed them back. Now we're in an earlier game meta, where assassins are picked, and well, people are pissed...AGAIN...over a problem we already solved, then went back and made into a problem again. What can we even do about it?

Just give it another year or two my dude. I'm certain by season 9/10 we'll have people talking about how season 8 was filled to the brim with lightning fast outplay potential and how games were all about good players getting leads while bad players blew their advantage or something. That said, I still think assassins by-and-large need almost a tutorial to provide players the right idea on dealing with assassins. Hell, maybe even something like ghost poro that lets you setup vision early in the event of assassin dives.

AirKingNeo4 votes

Remove Lethal. PtA is fine.

Conqueror is only "overtunned" on people who can hard abuse it. It's garbage for anyone else.

chipndip111 votes

Fair, fair. I think PtA would be simpler to fit in the game, honestly. I like Lethal more personally, but it's so fucking clumsy...

Ok sure but why4 votes

I think PtA should be changed to a support-precision keystone, where using any 3 abilities on an enemy exposes them to bonus damage, but doesn't do an initial burst on top of it. Burst isn't sustain, silly Riot.

Gene Freakz3 votes

Title check out; turns out you are a man of reason. I enjoyed the post. I like your point about game strategy being equally as important in champ select, but I don't see a lot of that happening. I agree with the principle that a person should play a few champs well, but often people don't consider the team synergy and what champs the other team has and just stick to their one-trick pony. I also agree that it is on squishies to position, ward, and read the map when the other team has an assassin like a zed (or you can just ban him, easy peasy).

I play Janna quite a bit and while she has good cc, she can't always stop a fully loaded Zed who ults her with no turrets around. The game has a lot to do with awareness and I describe it like fast-paced chess. A player has to constantly think about what could happen at any given moment and read the board and future moves. If you are squishy and roaming deep with no wards, as you say about Zed "he's Gonna pop you" because "it's his job".

P.S. Does your summoner name have anything to do with the show Mad Men?

chipndip11 votes

My name has nothing to do with Mad Men. It's just a play on my actual name, and then a few bits added here and there.

La Bello2 votes

I'd say keep PtA because honestly I feel like there are a few achievable fantasies attached to it (for myself anyway)

combining PtA with items like item 3071 item 3091 item 3001 as a sort of "BRING THIS DUDE DOWN!" type of build is pretty fun build for me on offensive supports so I want PtA to stay over Tempo.

My current Tempo Fantasies (attacking ultra super fast bruh) is currently being semi-sated by Hail of Blades to some degree so its meh. also im surprised you like electrocute. I hate that rune with a passion because of how it has an entire class of champions by the balls. Idk how you can talk about "yeah burst is a problem again" and then say "but eletrocute is kay". Its only reasons for being in the game are literally because

  1. According to studies players get a big satisfaction feedback out of seeing the animation+damage spike
  2. When Riot held a poll over what keystones players would like to see in RR T-Lords was easily ranked one because as mentioned before lots of players are addicted to the FREE DAMAGE and have spent a entire season already incorporating the rune into their champion playstyles

So basically the only reason its in is because it "feels good" and there is a sunk cost fallacy type thing going on along with "Without T-Lords my champ would be trash again cuz he would lose a bunch of power ". Also you can nerf BURST but not nerf DAMAGE.

For Instance

item 3095 NEW PASSIVE: Every 150 physical damage OR crit done to champions grants 5 Attack Damage (max 50 extra Attack Damage) see how that still allows damage to outpace defense without just resorting to one-shot instagib territory?

Daddy Ants2 votes

Tanks are meant to counter BURST damage not sustained damage.

If any damage needs nerfing, it's burst.

Mages, Assassin's, Bruisers and other non crit users are bursting way too hard right now.

My idea for an Exhaust buff that's fair -

Exhaust now reduces damage dealt by 45% for it's duration up from 40%

Ignite should be reverted to what it was before 8.6

KETSU01 votes

imo i think ignite should revert its dmg, but increase the greivous wounds or add aatrox's mutilator effect so it can be good against shields. A lot of the times for me ignite dmg tends to be shielded or out healed by natural regen or potions.

HyperTechno2 votes

You managed to write a post, I would, have written toxic as fuck. I love my Zoe, but people hate being one-shot. It's so hard, I want my Zoe to one-shot, but I want others to have fun. FUCK!

Anyway, you're correct in all the sense of the matter. I couldn't agree more.

But, let me know what you think of Zoe. Is her one-shot potential ok, in your eyes? Because I see her as a Zed, where you need to have played her a lot before you can play her well.

chipndip12 votes

Zoe has to work for her 1-shot, and unlike Zed, there's PLENTY of ways to deny her even when she's popping off. She can't punch through tanks well, either, so if the enemy drafts a smart comp, Zoe finds it really hard to solo carry games unless she's doing extremely well maneuvering around and hitting carries from blind spots, which is her niche as a burst mage.

Zoe's highly divisive, but I've defended Zoe's design for months now without blinking, especially after they made her Q more fair. Like I said in the OP: If people don't want to build their options to answer a fed champion that has clear windows to work around, that's on them.

bbQsauçe2 votes

[deleted]

Karunamon1 votes

"Landing your abilities on the target" in many cases amounts to "right clicking".

bbQsauçe1 votes

[deleted]

Blood Forfeit1 votes

Janna

Śhunpo5 votes

{quoted}

Can we stop spreading misinformation please?

Lethality is NOT the problem. Lethality is weak. What needs a nerf is Ignite, Electrocute and duskblade-stormrazor.

Lethality actually rewards you for using your kit and landing your abilities on the target. The abovementioned just add free damage with 0 skill required.

More details: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/1x5hK302-electrocute-ignite-duskblade-are-the-problems-not-lethality

Lethality most definitely is one of the problems. Prove me wrong, I have mastery seven on every single assassin. You walk into lane with a Dirk and if your opponent doesn't buy an armour item first back you have the ability to 100-0 them. I wish I was kidding.

bbQsauçe1 votes

[deleted]

Śhunpo3 votes

{quoted}

Read the link i posted.

I did, and I explained what my experience with Lethality is both as a user and hater of it. It's a silly statistic, armor pen. will forever be the healthier variation.

bbQsauçe2 votes

[deleted]

Śhunpo1 votes

{quoted}

Armor pen was even stronger than lethality. You could come into lane with a dirk and 100-0 if they don't have armor, just like now.

Lethality is just weak at the moment. I don't have a problem with champions dealing more damage with their abilities to squishies, that's how assassins are designed.

I have a problem however with assassins dealing 40% of the enemy HP with just Electrocute + Ignite, with virtually 0 skill involved and 0 counterplay available to the opponent. That is what needs fixing, not lethality.

Except there were less options and those options were quite expensive.

bbQsauçe1 votes

[deleted]

Śhunpo1 votes

{quoted}

Youmuus: 20 armor pen Duskblade: 10 armor pen Maw: 10 armor pen

Armor pen from runes: 19.22 Armor pen from masteries: around 5 (can't remember the exact value)

total: around 65 FLAT armor pen.

Max obtainable lethality in S8: 64 with sudden impact.

So nope, items were more cost efficient AND more SLOT efficient (youmuus used to give 65 AD, Dusk 75 AD).

I'm down to go back to flat armor pen lol, but that wouldn't fix the actual game problems.

Except Duskblade before had a passive that didn't break AD assassins' damage. That and items were still more expensive. They were a little more cost effective, but their base prices made it so that mid laners and junglers had clear windows of opportunity to exploit their lack of damage. Now you can get your first full Lethality item by ~8-12 minutes and you just roflstomp in terms of damage.

You were never able to do this before Lethality became the new "armor pen". Youmuu's wasn't even that great, most AD assassins still rushed Tiamat first and at times went straight into Last Whisper. Also RIP Last Whisper, the old LW was actually amazing.

Also stacking armor pen. besides Youmuu's+LW was pretty much trolling unless you needed Maw for the defensive passive. Nowadays you just stack Lethality before it's simply THE best option. Plus, Lethality builds invalidate every other build for AD assassins.

Rengar would love to go full crit., but Lethality is outright better. Shaco would love to go AP or crit., but Lethality is outright better. Kha'zix would love to go Tiamat or Manamune based builds, but Lethality is outright better. Talon would love to go full burst cheese build, but Lethality is just that and better. Zed would love to go BotRK and crit. based builds, but Lethality is THE best option.

Lethality is so good that it just invalidates any other possible build path for AD assassins, with Duskblade being the core of the issue, acting as a crutch item for AD assassins. The fact that it's killing off other potential build paths should signify that the statistic is extremely good as well as cost effective.

bbQsauçe1 votes

[deleted]

Śhunpo1 votes

Yeah I can agree that it is the ONLY option, but the items are still really amazing when put onto AD assassins.

50000000000000001 votes

Lethality is healthier version of flat armor pen.

The issue with Dirk is the extra 40 damage after a minion kill, not the ~7 armor pen (since lethality scales with level). Brutalizer gave more armor penetration than Serrated Dirk, at 10 armor pen.

There's also the general damage creep since the lethality changes, like Electrocute having more damage at higher cooldown compared to Thunderlord's Decree. I agree that it is easier to 100-0 now compared to Season 5 (during which Lethality was introduced), but it isn't because lethality gives more early armor penetration. It's because there are more sources of damage.

Śhunpo1 votes

{quoted}

Lethality is healthier version of flat armor pen.

The issue with Dirk is the extra 40 damage after a minion kill, not the ~7 armor pen (since lethality scales with level). Brutalizer gave more armor penetration than Serrated Dirk, at 10 armor pen.

There's also the general damage creep since the lethality changes, like Electrocute having more damage at higher cooldown compared to Thunderlord's Decree. I agree that it is easier to 100-0 now compared to Season 5 (during which Lethality was introduced), but it isn't because lethality gives more early armor penetration. It's because there are more sources of damage.

I would agree, but ever since its debut Lethality has caused nothing but issues.

WatchYourHeadM82 votes

I don’t understand how people think anything done to marksmen was a step in the right direction. Bot lane was the ONLY unique place to play before the changes and now it’s even less unique. It’s just a two man top or mid lane and is played as such. There’s no protect escape dynamic, there’s no specified prioritizing based off of the combo that actually hard punishes you for improper engage or targeting UNLESS your still playing marksmen. Seriously the lane was the most interesting place to play pre team fight and now it’s not unique or interesting in the slightest. The charm of playing the lane is gone and the role followed

Alex h87212 votes

Wow, take my upvote, i literally agree with all you said, very well said.

I think a way to nerf conqueror would be to reduce the ad bonus it gives you, its a very overloaded rune especially on melee carry type champs.

xxxDogmanxxx2 votes

You should run for President. I'd vote for you.

ΦmalphintoΦ1 votes

holy shit, downvoted as fuck as i seriously don't even feel to argue with this shit.

chipndip19 votes

...aight

RainXBlade1 votes

I agree that either PtA or Lethal Tempo should go. But, I lean heavily on PtA because why take PtA when you can take Conqueror instead and allow your increased damage to apply to other champions instead of just that 1 champion that you hit 3 times. I also agree on keeping Lethal Tempo because it rewards having to stick unto your target to gain the most out of the keystone.

I heavily agree on removing Dark Harvest. It's a binary feast-or-famine keystone.

I could argue that Conqueror should be scrapped overall since that keystone breaks so many bruisers and juggernauts (Hi Darius). They should replace it with Fervor (albeit, slightly weaker), which is arguably healthier because the game has already too much sources of True Damage (Hi IE, Ignite, Yi).

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