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maybe juggernauts should gain 'unstoppable' status effect

Mens Hair Club··2 votes·536 views

conditionally. it's the only way I can think of now to rebalance the absurdity of the (atrocious) new tank designs with their ridiculous amounts of reliable hard CC (inb4 'muh intended weakness you shouldn't be allowed to outplay us tanks')

there are 2 possibilities for it;

  • put it on an item item 3053 which runs the risk of making it attractive for everyone
  • put it directly on juggernaut kits

the latter is more interesting and probably easier to balance even if it's more work, so i'd like to propose an alternative to flat-out giving them an Olaf ult; super armor, like in fighting games. what super armor could do for juggs is give them a limited # of hits where they ignore CC effects. This super armor has innate counterplay (just hit them to pop the armor) but even if it were limited because of muh counterplay it would still be massively good for struggling juggernauts to give them means to outplay CC attacks and contribute more to teamfights. it would also make them much more threatening if they can't be easily negated by any support or tank because of ez-mode cc lock

some ideas for how to apply it; Garen gain 1/1/2/2/3 hits of super armor for a successful CC block with W Darius gain 1 hit of super armor for every enemy champion Noxian Might is applied to, refreshing on execute with Noxian Guillotine Nasus 1/3/5 for ult Volibear same as nasus

etc etc. putting very generously low numbers down, too. since we added a shit-load of free power to tanks and supports with almost 0 compensation (and none at all for supports, they just -get- to be stronger in every way) the same should be done to the rest of their roster. my only gripe is making yet another mechanic that gets shit on by high attack speed, but that's inevitable

48 Comments

Critmaster Garen4 votes

i think putting abilties like Garen parry into jugger kits is the better approach.

give them more ways for skillful outplay of cc abilities. it still retains their weakness to cc and kiting overall, but gives them a fighting chance, as this type of ability still relies heavily on the players ability to utilize it and isnt another 100% reliable mechanic.

Mens Hair Club1 votes

I think this is a better workaround simply because a 'parry' spell won't fit into certain kits and i'm not keen on reworking them to force it in there Illaoi

it works for Garen because he's basically a tanky skirmisher in terms of design, and skirmishers have defensive spells.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mens Hair Club,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0446ldbi,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2017-09-02T12:56:37.026+0000)

I think this is a better workaround simply because a 'parry' spell won't fit into certain kits and i'm not keen on reworking them to force it in there Illaoi

it works for Garen because he's basically a tanky skirmisher in terms of design, and skirmishers have defensive spells.

yea, i dont neccessarily mean the same parry ability in every juggernaut kit.

but windows of tenacity in general, or abilities like Darius hook that lets them work around cc to some degree.

interesting enough that you mentioned Illaoi as her e could also be seen as a skillful "anti kite" ability that helps bring enemies into her threat range and apply damage to them. if her tentacles wouldnt be just so easy to take out for ranged carries, illaoi would be one of the more reliable juggernauts aswell in my opinion.

Mens Hair Club1 votes

i consider illaoi's E an anti-dive spell more than anti-kite

given that if you have enough ranged she can't actually do much to you except hit your ghost and hope she can take it faster than you can get it back, but if you want to jump on her/are already in her face then she's going to nuke you if she has ult up. that's partially why champs like swain and lucian completely dumpster her (swain is broken into illaoi because of dot+corrupting+dft insta-deleting spirits)

Critmaster Garen1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mens Hair Club,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0446ldbi,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2017-09-02T13:03:38.028+0000)

i consider illaoi's E an anti-dive spell more than anti-kite

given that if you have enough ranged she can't actually do much to you except hit your ghost and hope she can take it faster than you can get it back, but if you want to jump on her/are already in her face then she's going to nuke you if she has ult up. that's partially why champs like swain and lucian completely dumpster her (swain is broken into illaoi because of dot+corrupting+dft insta-deleting spirits)

maybe her w should just not be interruptable. which would also be a workaround to deal with cc. if illaoi was cc immune during her w animation, she could use that to dodge cc abilities with proper timing.

it would be a different mechanic than garens parry, but along the same line of windowed cc reduction/immunity that requires skill and timing.

Mens Hair Club1 votes

i would LIKE that, but it would/could probably be a bit extreme given how low a CD it has

unless it worked more like hecarim/vi ult where you don't feel the effects of the CC until after your animation ends (so if you got stunned you wouldn't actually BE stunned until the dash is over), but even that's kinda dodgy

jwebb01132 votes

correct me if im wrong ... but isnt the point to cc to stop these tanky high damage dealers from getting to you?

isnt there items like item 3111 vs cc to help them isnt there a mastery that also gives cc reduction

Mens Hair Club2 votes

the point is to CC assassins to stop them from getting to you, but they have tools to avoid CC you CC or burst marksmen to stop them from DPSing your team but new marksman have dashes and untargetability Xayah to avoid both of those so they can do their job same for mages, but they have huge range and hard CC to stop YOU from stopping THEM

why are juggernauts the only champs who should NOT have tools to outplay people trying to stop them?

jwebb01131 votes

the point of CC is to stop an engage ( like you said an assassin ) but not limited to them... or to pick off a target

if you dont cc the darius coming at you then he is gonna stick his axe up your ass and split you in two or garen is gonna E Q IGNITE ULT and 1 shot or nasus is gonna bop you on the head with his stick for 1500 damage and kill you

you cc the adc to stop their damage and pick them off you cc any threat regardless of the role or champ type

you cc the maokai who is diving in to your back line to W your adc and ult the entire team so his team can follow up and blow you up while you are cced

Mens Hair Club2 votes

you didnt address the main point i was making

all of them EXCEPT for juggernauts have a way to outplay you trying to CC them, either by having tools to juke your team or hitting you from farther than you can hit back

juggernauts are the only group of champs expected to facetank everything and hope it works out. the only way you can balance this interaction out is if you super-buff their stats to either make them way tankier or do way more damage. if you give them a means to negate their weaknesses situationally (so they can outplay you, and you can outplay them) without moving away from what makes them a juggernaut (tanky+dmg but immobile) then you don't need to do either of those things

jwebb01131 votes

but arent juggernauts typically really tanky have a hard time to die and does massive damage output?

Mens Hair Club2 votes

they're not tankier than anyone else atm

tank item nerfs + tank reworks putting their tankiness in their kit instead of on items means juggs aren't that durable by comparison

i'd say they're medium tanky atm

jwebb01131 votes

tankyest class

TANKS

2nd tankyest class JUGGERNAUTS

yes they are so not tanky

Mens Hair Club2 votes

they die way too quick to be tanky tbh

jwebb01131 votes

dude come on .. you know damn well darius with two items and full tank is tanky

Mens Hair Club2 votes

full tank darius might as well be a full damage yi in league 2017

jwebb01131 votes

yi typically is full damage

and at higher elos is shit

Master Yi has a win rate 48.79% for Platinum+ players less then 9% ban rate and a pick rate of 9.65 %

Darius has a win rate 50.45% for Platinum+ players maintains a 20-23% ban rate with a 8.62% pick rate

so darius has a more then double ban rate... similar pick rate yet nearly a 3% higher win rate

plz tell me more how darius is so oppressed

Critmaster Garen2 votes

{quoted}

correct me if im wrong ... but isnt the point to cc to stop these tanky high damage dealers from getting to you?

isnt there items like item 3111 vs cc to help them isnt there a mastery that also gives cc reduction

doesnt mean cc cant still be op or overtuned and too reliable.

item 3116 and item 3022 on ranged champions are the largest offenders imo.

on certain champions they create ranged point and click permaslows that are compeltely impossible to deal with or play around for a lot of juggs.

when people are talking about "cc counter to juggernauts" then healthy mechanics are abilities like Karthus slow wall or windowed effects like item 3030 that create short windowed or targeted slows.

not mindless shit like malzahars voidlings and e with rylais that just glue fighters to the ground without counterplay. or tibbers just aoe slowing everything around him.

jwebb01131 votes

frozen mallet isnt that common on ranged champs outside of gnar

yes i know there are some builds where kog gets mallet but its typically 32mins and its built 5% in game i and 5th or 6th item ( already did the research and stats on this very issue in another post

gnar is typically the only champ who rushes this item at 66% of the time at 14mins

Critmaster Garen2 votes

{quoted}

frozen mallet isnt that common on ranged champs outside of gnar

yes i know there are some builds where kog gets mallet but its typically 32mins and its built 5% in game i and 5th or 6th item ( already did the research and stats on this very issue in another post

gnar is typically the only champ who rushes this item at 66% of the time at 14mins

its also built on kallista and currently a lot on kog maw.

if its common doesnt really matter. WHEN its built its usually to shut down juggernauts without counterplay.

rylais is even worse, as its even more commonly built.

jwebb01131 votes

rylais isnt hardly built any more ... so stop

and yes kalista does get mallet SOMETIMES but its like 3 % of games and typically a 5th item

and i already explained kog

Critmaster Garen2 votes

{quoted}

rylais isnt hardly built any more ... so stop

and yes kalista does get mallet SOMETIMES but its like 3 % of games and typically a 5th item

and i already explained kog

do you not understand that these low pick rates dont change that the items are unhealthy when they are built on ranged champions?

not every game has a juggernaut. so every game where an adc or a mage dont face a jugger, theyre unlikely to build these items in the first place, which reduces the pick rate of these items already.

buht when a juggernaut is on the enemy team, these items are more likely to be built against them. and when theyre built, theyre entirely unfair to slow melee campions. and though rylais general pickrate is lower than it used to be, its still commonly built against them.

just because a mechanic is nieche, doesnt mean its not broken in its nieche.

jwebb01131 votes

if they have low pick rates of being built on range champs then they arent optimal on them therefore there is little reason to build them

[zombie-brand-mindblown]

and if an adc gets to 5th or 6th item like a kog or kalista they are gonna shred anything in front of them regardless of they get a fukin frozen mallet or not

Critmaster Garen2 votes

{quoted}

if they have low pick rates of being built on range champs then they arent optimal

they are not optimal EVERY game.

that doesnt eman they arent optimal against juggers, as they completely shut down slow melee champions ON champions with ranged damage over time effects.

jwebb01131 votes

they are gonna shut down juggernauts at 5 items anyways regardless if they build a mallet of not

juggernauts dont scale into late game except for nasus with his Q

they are all best in lane and mid game situations

jwebb01131 votes

Gnar has two forms , mini and mega so Teemo is an on hit damage champ ... and he builds mallet 18.46% of the time and typically 19 mins in Kennen another on hit type of champ , builds mallet 3.95% of time and typically at 24 mins in game Yasuo isnt range .. he is melee builds mallet 14.8% of time typically 28 mins in game

Vayne builds mallet .76% of the time ( less the 1% ) and typically 32 mins in game Kalista builds mallet 2.30% of the time and typically 29 mins in game Kindred builds mallet 2.46% of the time and typically 28 mins in game KogMaw builds mallet 5.82% of the time and typically 32 mins in game

so as far as the adcs are concerned its typuically a 5th or 6th item and used for defensive then offensive and its is on average for the adcs you listed typically on average 2.83% of the time ( so how is that abusing the item)

Gnar builds it 66.19% of the time and at 14mins

so out of all these champs GNAR is the only one who rushes the item and has a high dependency on

Critmaster Garen2 votes

{quoted}

Gnar has two forms , mini and mega so Teemo is an on hit damage champ ... and he builds mallet 18.46% of the time and typically 19 mins in Kennen another on hit type of champ , builds mallet 3.95% of time and typically at 24 mins in game Yasuo isnt range .. he is melee builds mallet 14.8% of time typically 28 mins in game

Vayne builds mallet .76% of the time ( less the 1% ) and typically 32 mins in game Kalista builds mallet 2.30% of the time and typically 29 mins in game Kindred builds mallet 2.46% of the time and typically 28 mins in game KogMaw builds mallet 5.82% of the time and typically 32 mins in game

so as far as the adcs are concerned its typuically a 5th or 6th item and used for defensive then offensive and its is on average for the adcs you listed typically on average 2.83% of the time ( so how is that abusing the item)

Gnar builds it 66.19% of the time and at 14mins

so out of all these champs GNAR is the only one who rushes the item and has a high dependency on

and in the cases they build these items, theyre impossible to deal with for slow melee champions.

there is a difference in not being able to head on fight these champions, and being completely immobilized by them, not even able to run away.

youre literally just glued to the ground, and watch your health bar melt while youre unable to move for the entire duration.

just because these items are only picked in rare cases, which i can promise you is only against juggernauts in almost all of these cases, doesnt mean the mechanic is healthy.

jwebb01131 votes

DID YOU NOT SEE AT WHAT POINT IN THE GAME THEY ARE BUILDING THE ITEM

FOR THESE RANGED CHAMPS ITS AT AVERAGE 30 MINS IN GAME

SO ITS NOT DEPENTANT ON THE ITEM TO WIN AND HAS LITTLE TO NO EFFECT ON THE PREVIOUS 26 MINS OF THE GAME

Critmaster Garen2 votes

{quoted}

DID YOU NOT SEE AT WHAT POINT IN THE GAME THEY ARE BUILDING THE ITEM

FOR THESE RANGED CHAMPS ITS AT AVERAGE 30 MINS IN GAME

SO ITS NOT DEPENTANT ON THE ITEM TO WIN AND HAS LITTLE TO NO EFFECT ON THE PREVIOUS 26 MINS OF THE GAME

how does the point in the game at which they build it matter?

they build it for one purpose. to completely shut down a champion without counterplay. it doesnt matter that it happens in one out of 20 or one out of 50 games. or that it happens at 25 to 30 minutes.

its an unhealthy mechanic.

if there was an item that could just guarantee an assassin to kill an adc with 100% reliability without giving the adc a chance to fight back, wed have that shit removed in an instance. even if it just happened 1 out of 20 games and at 30 minutes.

jwebb01131 votes

KOG MAW DONT NEED MALLET AT 5TH OR 6TH ITEM TO KILL A JUGGERNAUT

HE DOES THAT WITH OUT THAT ITEM

THAT IS WHAT HE DOES

AT 25+ MINS IF YOU HAVENT WON VS KOG YOUR LIKELY NOT GOING TO

Mens Hair Club2 votes

stop yelling pls, use your indoor voice

jwebb01131 votes

SORRY CAPS KEY IS STUCK

AND IT DONT IMPLY VOLUME

IT IMPLIES BIG LETTERS

Critmaster Garen2 votes

{quoted}

KOG MAW DONT NEED MALLET AT 5TH OR 6TH ITEM TO KILL A JUGGERNAUT

HE DOES THAT WITH OUT THAT ITEM

THAT IS WHAT HE DOES

AT 25+ MINS IF YOU HAVENT WON VS KOG YOUR LIKELY NOT GOING TO

not necessarily. if a juggernaut like darius is in kog maws face and makes it past his kiting then the darius has a chance at winning.

the darius also still has a chance to get away from the kog maw.

however items like rylais or mallet guarantee that he will never be able to reach him, or get out of his auto range.

i dont think you have played even a single time a juggernaut against a ranged champion with rylais or mallet. or youd understand what imk talking about.

jwebb01131 votes

ok if darius is walking up to a kog who has his increased range with W and his slow on his E who is kitting with his natural range advantage of being a marksmen then kog is gonna kill him

darius has to catch him out of position ... and or flash into him to try to burst him and chances are he will still kill darius if not go death for death

with out mallet

Critmaster Garen2 votes

{quoted}

ok if darius is walking up to a kog who has his increased range with W and his slow on his E who is kitting with his natural range advantage of being a marksmen then kog is gonna kill him

darius has to catch him out of position ... and or flash into him to try to burst him and chances are he will still kill darius if not go death for death

with out mallet

ok, i was about to write a counter argument. but i dont think were getting anywhere with fighting over extremely specific scenarios.

the way i see it there are two possibilities.

either you have never played a slow melee bruiser and have been on the receiving end of a ranged enemy champion with rylais or mallet and you just dont understand how unfair this interaction is and just how hard these items shut you down reliably without counterplay. even if its not common every single game, when it happens its simply a broken mechanic to be point and click cced from long range to your death like that.

"out of position" in your case would literally mean anywhere near a teamfight where the enemy adc is involved and having your team fight a 4v5.

tenacity is entirely ineffective in these cases, as these slows are constantly reapplied. usually multiple times per seconds. so cc cleanses dont help either. and slow reductions arent effective enough in those cases anymore after the swifties nerf back during the permaslow meta.

or the second possibility is that youre abusing these items on ranged champions yourself for exactly this reason. in this case it doesnt make much sense arguing with you.

because otherwise you wouldnt lose your shit over the suggestion to remove an unhealthy interaction, even if it only occurs rarely as a you claimed yourself.

jwebb01131 votes

lol 1st champ ever played and mained was garen

i tend to main and play tanks and bruiser if not supports in general

Critmaster Garen2 votes

{quoted}

lol 1st champ ever played and mained was garen

i tend to main and play tanks and bruiser if not supports in general

so youre saying youre ok with malzahar with rylais pressing e on you during a teamfight or just spamming minions and being unable to move for the entire rest of the fight and basically be just decoration to the landscape?

or just being passively permaslowed because annie sent tibbers in your general vicinity?

or a kallista building mallet and making it impossible to either retreat a fight or to fight back?

if youre saying these items are barely built on these champions anyways, then whats the big deal about removing these passives for them?

it doesnt matter how rarely theyre built. in the cases theyre built, theyre heavily abusive.

there are ways to give ranged champions healthy kiting mechanics that leave bruisers counterplay. and there are ways to add into kite mechanics to bruisers that give ranged champions counterplay.

rylais and mallet arent it.

jwebb01131 votes

champs i have mained and have mastery levels on

Maokai Nautilus Sona Leona Morgana Nunu Malphite Ashe Caitlyn Varus Garen Trundle Tristana Lulu Lissandra TahmKench Janna Amumu Galio before rework Bard Thresh Nasus Braum Alistar JarvanIV Shen Taric Blitzcrank

jwebb01131 votes

if malazar uses his ult on me as garen in a team fight then my job is done cuz then its not being used on my mid carry or adc carry

and if i wanted to kill and get to kalista i would have to flash in through her front line to catch her any ways as garen

Critmaster Garen2 votes

{quoted}

if malazar uses his ult on me as garen in a team fight then my job is done cuz then its not being used on my mid carry or adc carry

and if i wanted to kill and get to kalista i would have to flash in through her front line to catch her any ways as garen

im not taking about his ULT. im talking about his e. just his e and his minions. his dot effects.

that shit with rylais is literally 100% enough to shut you down and block you out of a fight. its unavoidable. its on a short cooldown. an entire champion made useless with one 100% reliable ability.

you cant cleanse it or reduce it with tenacity, since tenacity doesnt affect the duration of the ability itself and the slow is immediately reapplied every half of a second.

this is just one interaction of many where rylais permaslows are broken.

you wont hear me complaining about rylais on his q since its possible to dodge that and only creates a windowed cc effect. but im specifically talking about slows on ranged, direct targeted abilities or auto attacks. or aoe dot abilities like tibbers burn.

or mallet slows on kallista, gnars and kog maws auto attacks.

its a mechanic that is unhealthy and overpowered in its nieche.

jwebb01131 votes

and vs heavy cc as garen i would get mercs, and have the tenacity mastery... and wait til im cced and use Q to break it and then if i wanted to focus a target in a fight to get close to them i would have to flash in to kill them off ...

but his minion and dot is already a counter to slow moving champs like juggernauts with out the ryalis so its not the item that is countering them

its not an issue with the slow

the class of juggernauts are all this way... its their weakness

all classes has theirs

juggernauts typically have high damage out put... lane bully type ... tanky and some sort of sustain

so therefore they are slow, no gap closer , kiteable and subjected to cc

everything you pick and chose in league has pro and cons this why you cant just blindly and dumbly pick any champ into any situation vs any team comp. and this why you need to know and understand champs strengths and weakness and know how to exploit the strengths and hide/cover up your weakness

and if i was in that situation i wouldnt focus mal i would try to flank and pick off the support or the adc who ever is the least chance of shutting me out ...

there is no way in league for everythign to be perfectly fair and balanced its impossible to have this... once again sometimes the balance in the game comes from the unbalance of the game

checks and balances malz is a short ranged mage with his ult ... he loses to long range mages typically who can stay clear of him despite the flash ult situations but if he is gonna commit that hard to the kill and burn everything for it... then he is subjected to the same a few moments later by having all those cds burnt

you see this expressed highly in pro play ... where if someone burns cds that the enemy team with know this , know the window til its up again and abuse this fact ...

its only here where we are all dumb apes pounding at the key board ( compared to pros) that dont take advantage of this regularly and use it to advantages

Critmaster Garen2 votes

{quoted}

and vs heavy cc as garen i would get mercs, and have the tenacity mastery... and wait til im cced and use Q to break it

let me stop you here.

this is not possible against rylais or mallet permaslows. i dont know if you really understand how this interaction works so let me explain.

tenacity reduces the duration of single cc effects.

this means when a Malzahar slows you and silences you with rylais on his q, the duration of the slow and silence are individually reduced by 30%. in this case tenacity is effective.

however, when he sends his voidlings at you or throws his e on you, then with every single damage tick, that slow is constantly being reapplied over and over and over before it even comes close to running out.

youre not being hit by a single slow, but by many slows in rapid succession.

for this reason tenacity cant reduce rylais slows on damage over time effects or mallet empowered auto attacks and is entirely ineffective. you will always get slowed for the full 4 seconds of malzahars e. with or without merc treads.

you can cleanse ONE of the slows with garens q, which the dot effect then immediately reapplies half a second later. which makes slow cleanses aswell ineffective against rylais+dot permaslows.

jwebb01131 votes

and the likely hood you pick garen vs a heavy cc comp to being with ?

this is where picks and team comps come into play

Mens Hair Club2 votes

there will never be a low cc team comp that will be considered anything but a shit team comp

jwebb01131 votes

why play any of these champs when JarvanIV Maokai Sion are better and stronger in meta and offer way more to team

DemonBoneJangles1 votes

if the effect lasts for a set amount of seconds and ONLY blocks CC then high attack speeds wouldn't matter because the super armor ignores everything but hard cc another possible effect is degrading the cc by one level EX: suppressions<Stun<Root<Slow<No Effect that way it doesn't totally invalidate the cc just makes it less usefull against those tanks,

Mens Hair Club1 votes

it only negates CC but auto attacks will still lower the value of the super armor by 1. CC that does not deal damage would also lower the count by 1.

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