Irelia isn't broken. Conqueror is.

chipndip1··8 votes·2,444 views

Once again: Hashinshin isn't a game dev. Hashinshin being butt-hurt about XYZ doesn't mean he has good ideas. You shouldn't make an entire rune solely for Hashinshin's type of champion, then make a whole balance patch around Hashinshin's style of thinking, just because he got pissed that he got ganked that he flamed your whole company and told you guys to kill yourselves live on Twitch. What has it gotten you? He still insults you guys constantly. He still makes a victim-case out of top lane constantly. He still loses to Riven constantly. Nothing has changed AT ALL except this stupid rune now exists.

We really don't need Conqueror in the game. It invalidates Press the Attack. It invalidates tank early games. Tanks being out of flavor in top lane means there's less defense for carries in other parts of the map, and that means upfront burst gains more mileage because no one's there to take it. Rather than arms racing everyone around Conqueror, Conqueror should just be axed either for something else or for nothing at all so that champs like Jax and Irelia can be more tolerable in solo queue.

Irelia isn't the problem. Conqueror giving her magic/physical/true damage at the same time while it never goes on cd as long as she's fighting is the whole problem. Stop. Listening. To. Hashinshin.

And no, this isn't a thread calling people to "hunt" or "harass" the guy. This is a thread that's calling out the fact that listening to him has caused a massive amount of damage creep in top lane that solo queue tanks aren't equipped to deal with. Pro play may be a different story, but solo queue can't handle Conqueror very well at all. Any extended trade in top lane goes to whoever has Conqueror because it provides so much power at once.

42 Comments

Moody P7 votes

neither are broken and conqueror didn't magically invalidate tanks out of existence

D357R0Y3R1 votes

I remember that tanks (ornn sion cho) used to be broken even after riot introduced conqueror

Irelia is still broken tho idk what you're talking about though recent Tiamat nerf will affect her a lot in high elo

need to see about that

SithesisLord1 votes

Name 5 top lane tanks not named Sion (Because his problem is infinite HP stacking combined with Demolish), Malphite and Poppy (Because they´re 99% of the time used as counterpicks and are not blind-pickable) that have a combination of win, pick and ban rates indicating anything other than 'this champion is dogshit'.

Moody P3 votes

Why are you straw manning what I said

chipndip12 votes

In solo queue

Moody P1 votes

there were like 3 or 4 solo Q viable tanks in top lane before conqueror came out anyway ad those 3 happened to be really fucking busted prior to it, too

conq didn't do anything that riot hadn't already done to the class through direct nerfs

SithesisLord3 votes

We really don't need Conqueror in the game.

DESK SLAM

Thank you!

Frosted Tips2 votes

Conqueror is fine just a few champions that are overtuned abuse it way harder than everyone else.

Irelia and Jax

Ragnaveil1 votes

So invalidating counterplay with one rune is okay. The only way to survive burst is to build defensive items. That rune makes any resist based item feel shitty when dealing with them, whether you be a mage, adc, bruiser, tank, assassin, etc. Yi isn't disgusting just because of his E true damage, he's disgusting because he's using that AND conqueror to kill everyone and their mother in less than 2 seconds with untankable damage with a simple on hit build. Remove the true damage conversion and you are set.

Frosted Tips3 votes

So invalidating counterplay with one rune is okay. The only way to survive burst is to build defensive items.

Conqueror only has 20% of the damage converted to true damage so building armor is still effective. You can also build health.

Yi isn't disgusting just because of his E true damage, he's disgusting because he's using that AND conqueror to kill everyone and their mother in less than 2 seconds with untankable damage with a simple on hit build.

Yi is stupid because he is a aa based champion that has a gap closer that makes him untargetable, damage reduction and a heal, and a steroid Ultimate. Yi is a poorly designed champion and that is why he is disgusting not Conqueror.

FioraWillCarry1 votes

I saw a video where Pants dared to try Yi in challenger. It was so cringe how useless Yi actually is in a game where everybody has a working brain. Yi is not the problem. It's all the mentally deficient people we often get for team mates in soloQ that makes him a problem. Riot should require people to pass an IQ test before they can make an account. That'll fix Yi.

ez mental boom1 votes

"Overtuned" he says

Jax has been untouched other than QoL changes for literal years and nobody gave a fuck about him until conq came along and ruined the game

FOR JUSTICE2 votes

same happened to nami during the entirety of season 8 until she was deemed "too strong". riot nerfed her anyways.

not being touched doesnt mean they cant be overtuned.

Frosted Tips2 votes

He got some pretty nice buffs in 7.22 and ever since then people were saying he was a little too strong and with others getting nerfed and Jax going unchecked he started to dominate.

ez mental boom1 votes

7.22 was preseason 8. The 7.22 changes were compensation buffs for losing runes.

Every single fucking champion got buffs in 7.22 http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/V7.22

It was conq that made people aware of Jax's existence. It was conq that broke top lane.

Moody P1 votes

there are like 5 champs who even use conqueror right now and of those 4 i'd say 3 abuse it

the rune isn't OP but i do wonder if we really need it at all considering it didn't really accomplish what it was meant to do (give bruisers a keystone), it was just a bandaid fix to the obnoxious preseason tank dominance

Frosted Tips1 votes

I mean it gave bruisers a keystone. They legit didn't have one before. I'm not defending it and saying it is the right keystone, but I think there are worse designed keystones.

HoB and Unsealed Spellbook, which I personally believe to be cancer, because the person always has a summoner up which is unfun to play against. Like always being at a summoner spell advantage is pretty unhealthy IMO.

Gabresol1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=03M4Zn8w,comment-id=00040002,timestamp=2018-12-18T23:27:04.724+0000)

there are like 5 champs who even use conqueror right now and of those 4 i'd say 3 abuse it

the rune isn't OP but i do wonder if we really need it at all considering it didn't really accomplish what it was meant to do (give bruisers a keystone), it was just a bandaid fix to the obnoxious preseason tank dominance

Darius, Master Yi, Jax, Tryndamere, Kled, Riven, Draven, Fiora, Yasuo, Irelia use it frequently and there are other champions that could use, but have a design perfectly crafted for PtA.

10 is not "Like 5" and besides Draven and Yi, there are all Toplaners.

Just to get the numbers right.

ez mental boom2 votes

Everyone knows that conqueror is broken and warps the game around itself

Everyone also knows that riot will refuse to remove conqueror until the end of time

I say the same thing about Jax but I get downvoted to oblivion

Although Jax has been relatively untouched for years and nobody gave a fuck about him until conq came along and ruined top lane

wolf jade1 votes

Irelia Irelia

SwiftKitten881 votes

conqueror also being broken does not mean Irelia also isn't

this is the same shitty argument ADC's tried to use in 2017

trying to blame it on item 3504 being too strong being the reason, not because THEY were broken.

then riot nerfed ardent and it didn't fix jack shit because it never was ardent... item 3504 just made issue which was already there worse.

when rito addressed the ACTAUL ADC'S. THAT'S when the issue went away

Irelia isn't broken because of "conqueror" she is broken either way because of the mark system, and how her W cant be stopped by cc, conqueror just makes her even worse. its not the CAUSE.

remove the mark system. make her actaully need to KILL for a reset like she ALWAYS HAD. and make it so a stun or a kncokup/displacement break her damage reduction on her W.. and she would be fine..

Irelia Bot1 votes

{quoted}

conqueror also being broken does not mean Irelia also isn't

this is the same shitty argument ADC's tried to use in 2017

trying to blame it on item 3504 being too strong being the reason, not because THEY were broken.

then riot nerfed ardent and it didn't fix jack shit because it never was ardent... item 3504 just made issue which was already there worse.

when rito addressed the ACTAUL ADC'S. THAT'S when the issue went away

Irelia isn't broken because of "conqueror" she is broken either way because of the mark system, and how her W cant be stopped by cc, conqueror just make her even worse. its not the CAUSE

The marks are literally a copy paste from Nidalee's

Biggest difference is that Irelia has a reset on kill but 600 range while Nidalee has 750 range on a marked target.

SwiftKitten881 votes

[{quoted}](name=Irelia Bot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=03M4Zn8w,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2018-12-18T18:12:53.756+0000)

The marks are literally a copy paste from Nidalee's

Biggest difference is that Irelia has a reset on kill but 600 range while Nidalee has 750 range on a marked target.

almost... except nidalee's marks can only be done by a long range single target skillshot... or a trap which takes 2 seconds to arm. nor does her mark stun off disarm the target when it is applied

nidalee mark only gives her a 40/50/60/70% reset... not 100% nidalee marks can only effect camps and champions... not minions

nidalee is also very squishy and getting into melee range is extremely dangerous and u are stuck there for quite a long time... and your ESCAPE only moves you 375 units and thats only after you have waited 2-4 seconds in melee range

so yeah the actual CODING if the marks may have been copy pasted from nid.

but yeah.. not quite the same...

Irelia Bot4 votes

{quoted}

almost... except nidalee's marks can only be done by a long range single target skillshot... or a trap which takes 2 seconds to arm. nor does her mark stun off disarm the target when it is applied

nidalee mark only gives her a 40/50/60/70% reset... not 100% nidalee marks can only effect camps and champions... not minions

nidalee is also very squishy and getting into melee range is extremely dangerous and u are stuck there for quite a long time... and your ESCAPE only moves you 375 units and thats only after you have waited 2-4 seconds in melee range

so yeah the actual CODING if the marks may have been copy pasted from nid.

but yeah.. not quite the same...

Irelia Marks don't apply to minions. That is the reset on kill you are thinking of.

SwiftKitten881 votes

[{quoted}](name=Irelia Bot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=03M4Zn8w,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-18T18:31:49.272+0000)

Irelia Marks don't apply to minions. That is the reset on kill you are thinking of.

really? pretty sure i have seen her dash to a minion then dash to a target without her killing the minion...

Irelia Bot2 votes

{quoted}

really.... pretty sure i have seen her dash to a minion then dash to a target without her killing the minion...

You have to kill the minion or else it goes on cooldown.

SwiftKitten881 votes

[{quoted}](name=Irelia Bot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=03M4Zn8w,comment-id=000200000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-18T18:34:01.787+0000)

You have to kill the minion or else it goes on cooldown.

i understand that.. but from what i have SEEN, i dont see her killing a minion before dashing to a target. maybe i need to look more carefully..

Dr Dog1 votes

thats just flat out wrong, you can get a reset if your e hits a minion

EDIT: nvm i was thinking of jg camps

Irelia Bot2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Dog,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=03M4Zn8w,comment-id=0002000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2018-12-18T19:11:47.969+0000)

thats just flat out wrong, you can get a reset if your e hits a minion

No it doesn't go test it in the practice tool. It works only on Champions and large monsters. You have to kill the minion to get a reset from them.

Dr Dog1 votes

uhh did you ignore my edit entirely? i made it way before you responded

Irelia Bot1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Dog,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=03M4Zn8w,comment-id=000200000000000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2018-12-18T19:18:40.710+0000)

uhh did you ignore my edit entirely? i made it way before you responded

And I didn't have the page refreshed when I responded.

Dr Dog1 votes

oof

chipndip14 votes

If you remove the mark system, you basically reduce Irelia back to how she was pre-rework, and then what's the point of the freaking rework?

The issue is that she isn't dps'ing. She's using the bonus AD and true damage from Conqueror to burst back line champions. If we're talking about raw power, she's already been nerfed to shit. I'm talking about her game play flows. Conqueror is a massive addition to power creep in the game, and removing the bonus AD and resistance ignore it gives to everyone's damage rotations would be a picture perfect way to reduce that effect.

SwiftKitten881 votes

{quoted}

If you remove the mark system, you basically reduce Irelia back to how she was pre-rework, and then what's the point of the freaking rework?

The issue is that she isn't dps'ing. She's using the bonus AD and true damage from Conqueror to burst back line champions. If we're talking about raw power, she's already been nerfed to shit. I'm talking about her game play flows. Conqueror is a massive addition to power creep in the game, and removing the bonus AD and resistance ignore it gives to everyone's damage rotations would be a picture perfect way to reduce that effect.

whats they point? her W,E,R were completly changed?

thats like be saying "what the point of nidalee rework when they reverted her traps back to flat damage" instead of thier % hp damage

chipndip14 votes

{quoted}

whats they point? her W,E,R were completly changed?

thats like be saying "what the point of nidalee rework when they reverted her traps back to flat damage" instead of thier % hp damage

The point of the E, W, and R changes was to support the Q changes. Champion abilities aren't created in a vacuum. They're there to support each other and create a holistic kit. If you don't, you end up with crap like Mordekaiser who's just a bundle of shit thrown together.

Gabresol1 votes

{quoted}

The point of the E, W, and R changes was to support the Q changes. Champion abilities aren't created in a vacuum. They're there to support each other and create a holistic kit. If you don't, you end up with crap like Mordekaiser who's just a bundle of shit thrown together.

pretty sure that does not go Akali... Or Yasuo... Wait a second... Do ANY CertainlyT champions follow this formular?

Irelai does, but reading this I noticed that Akali's kit certainly(T) dosen't...

hoganftw1 votes

Irelia shouldn't be able to instakill minions with her Q.

ankoanko191 votes

{quoted}

Irelia shouldn't be able to instakill minions with her Q.

She's always been able to do that. Old Irelia however was able to instakill you aswell with her Q dmg. The current Irelia needs to instakill minions because how else is she supposed to get reliable dmg? It's not ''just press W and smack them for 7s'' anymore.

FOR JUSTICE1 votes

of the top 30 picks toplane, literally only 6 actually take conq regularly. 6.

Gabresol1 votes

[{quoted}](name=FOR JUSTICE,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=03M4Zn8w,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2018-12-18T21:37:50.519+0000)

of the top 30 picks toplane, literally only 6 actually take conq regularly. 6.

in popularityy or success?

Becuase in case of success I would ask, how many of these top 30 are champions that counter these conquerer champions? Stuff like Quinn, Kayle, Teemo or Lissandra for example.

Malix Farwin1 votes

Nooo pretty sure Irelia is broken.

FioraWillCarry1 votes

Conquerer is the only reason I can hard win lane on Fiora. Without it, she just gets shit on by every top laner. Don't remove this rune without giving her some kind of compensation.

More from Gameplay

More by chipndip1