Welp rito killed Lee with the removal of trackers knife.

HeartPalpitation·Feb 21, 2018·16 votes·2,001 views

Press F to pay respects.

I know the boards don't like lee sin, he is the poster boy of hate and only his dedicated mains love him but he is going to officially be garbage and potentially unplayable after this. I have almost 800k mastery on him across 3 accounts and i feel like all my time and effort put into him has suddenly gone down the drain. I can only hope riot will do something for him in the future because relying on 2 trinket wards to do anything is just not going to be enough.

[zombie-nunu-tears]

66 Comments

Diamond2KappaFeb 21, 201819 votes

good imo, they can buff him in a way that doesnt make him impossible to catch if they need to xd

Vapor Wave VibesFeb 21, 201818 votes

He's been alive for too long he needs a day of rest

BobaFlautistFeb 21, 201818 votes

I mean I think there are more appropriate places to put power in his kit than "Always has a target agnostic dash up".

Done25Feb 22, 20187 votes

{quoted}

I mean I think there are more appropriate places to put power in his kit than "Always has a target agnostic dash up".

He was never intended to have had the ability to ward hop. They've been wanting to remove it for a long time now.

HibekiFeb 22, 20184 votes

Good, war hopping has been broken ever since they added trinkets. You had to spend gold for that shit or build wriggles.

RsViagraFeb 22, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Good, war hopping has been broken ever since they added trinkets. You had to spend gold for that shit or build wriggles.

he has not been in the meta for awhile now, and plenty of champions are far more mobile AND better.

Chembaron YamadaFeb 22, 20183 votes

About the mobility: he is considered to be a diver. Which means: good way to engage a fight, but not as good at escaping from it.

This ward hop kinda made him have the mobility of an Assassin, instead of a diver. He could go in with Q and go out with W.

Cutting that mobility a bit down is good in my opinion. They can put power elsewhere into his kit to compensate.

RsViagraFeb 22, 20181 votes

{quoted}

About the mobility: he is considered to be a diver. Which means: good way to engage a fight, but not as good as escaping from it.

This ward hop kinda made him have the mobility of an Assassin, instead of a diver. He could go in with Q and go out with W.

Cutting that mobility a bit down is good in my opinion. They can put power elsewhere into his kit to compensate.

out with w? he could only go as far as you can drop a ward which is not far at all. He was built around the wards and his early game presence, he either needs a rework or a new warding item. Its amazing how they can take iconic champions and ruin them in 1 patch.

ShuyinTheXFeb 21, 20188 votes

Lee was at the top of the jungle for years on end, it's about time he got wacked with the bat.

HeartPalpitationFeb 21, 20186 votes

{quoted}

Lee was at the top of the jungle for years on end, it's about time he got wacked with the bat.

He has not been relevant for the past year and is currently already the 25th on the list of junglers, i assume you enjoy sej and j4 and jax jungle every game?

HalcyonDwellerFeb 21, 20184 votes

I don't think that's a good reason to nerf a champion. If they are going to be nerfed it should be because they were problematic (which lee was).

You need to use better reasoning.

SalronFeb 22, 20181 votes

Lee has not been in the meta for several months now what are you even talking about

TheProfezzorFeb 21, 20182 votes

Damn I just bought the god skin

Hextech OwIFeb 21, 20182 votes

They are removing it for now.

HalcyonDwellerFeb 21, 20182 votes

I hope they buff something else about him instead of giving him more ward-jumps he can use.

LuthianDelphiFeb 21, 20182 votes

Dw, he won't be worse than sona was <3 41% winrate before 25 minutes boys ^.^ 48% overall

The TrentFeb 22, 20182 votes

I'm so okay with this. I've been playing this game since it came out, I'm sick of Lee Sin. He's already bad atm, but this just makes my day even better. TBH, his kit is out-dated and he's in need for a rework. Sadly, like Udyr, he just has too many fans that are scared of change.

PopcornBunniFeb 22, 20182 votes

Relying on a gimmicky item interaction to be good should have been a sign he had design problems

Ryze item 3157

HeartPalpitationFeb 22, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Relying on a gimmicky item interaction to be good should have been a sign he had design problems

considering ryze was reworked 2 times your point is invalid lee's kit has survived through every season because it is good design. If this is your arugement then all auto attack and spell cancels should be removed because they were not intended example: Riven . but i don't see people crying about her.

Alex h8721Feb 22, 20184 votes

Good design LOL, Lets see what lee's kit has as a "diver" (pretty sure thats his classification, even tho IMO its wrong b/c diver description says they have a hard time getting out if they go in): Attack speed buff for weaving autos (Clear +1), Aoe melee damage and lifesteal (sustain +1) (clear +2), Long range skillshot gapcloser- That is also an execute (Mobility +1) (assassination +1) (clear +3), Medium range dash to allied units (mobility +2) oh and its also a shield for BOTH LEE AND ALLIES (Sustain +2) (Utility +1), And finally, his ult, Good damage hard CC STRONG pick potential (Assassination +2) (Utility +2).

Yeaaaah, lee isn't overloaded at all, thats why you never see a good lee snowball games super hard by just running around the map at super speed, super healthy murdering people.

Good design L M F A O.

Yaśuo MainFeb 22, 20181 votes

Cool, now list the "pros" without a confusing fuckin format and list the cons as well.

No, I'm serious.

diver description says they have a hard time getting out if they go in

Lies. Their description just says they are mobile, not unable to get out after a dive.

Attack speed buff for weaving autos

It's actually so he can do something in a 1v1, imagine lee without being able to attack as fast. He would have a hard time doing a 3+ key combo.

Wait, you didn't read the passive description?

Aoe melee damage and lifesteal

Oh so you won't say it's magic damage but you'll say it's melee damage so it sounds like it does the same damage as Q and not damage that is nearly insignificant? AND you'll say it's lifesteal even though that's his W and not his E?

Long range skillshot gapcloser

"long range" what the fuck are you comparing it to? how Is it LONG?

Medium range dash to allied units (mobility +2) oh and its also a shield for BOTH LEE AND ALLIES

Yeah and Lee dashes to wards most of the time which doesn't shield either.

Good damage hard CC STRONG pick potential

"Good damage" which is why he is even a presence late game because its his entire power budget?

"hard CC" stop saying it like its a 4 second stun or something, its a knockback which only benefits him in terms of distance if he uses flash.

"(Assassination +2)" how is it an assassination for having good damage?

Also, why are you adding points like it supports your argument?

"thats why you never see a good lee snowball games super hard by just running around the map at super speed"

probably because you fucking don't, because his winrate would be garbage compared to what you say

Chembaron YamadaFeb 22, 20181 votes

Even if it wasn't directly stated, fact is that the design of divers points in the direction that they are supposed to be weaker at escaping than engaging.

Warwick speedbuff just works towards enemies, ult can be bodyblocked to prevent escape and it has a more generous hitbox at the start to make that possible.

good engage with Q and ult, but just her Q can be used without a target, her Q can be bodyblocked to prevent her escape and she slows down while charging it up.

Camille her E is basically her only form of mobility with fairly high CD. If she engaged with it, she can't get out for quite some time. Attempt to escape can get interrupted since E is telegraphed and she just gets extended range for it towards enemies.

XinZhao mobility is targeted, just works towards enemies.

Irelia Same for her.

Divers are fighters able to reach the priority target, having the damage to be the killing threat for them and enough durability to stay in the fight, since it gets pretty hard to escape from the middle of the enemy team.

If they become great at escaping.... Why do we have assassins? Divers can kill the enemy carry just like them, while being tankier. If they become great at escaping, there is no point to bring an Assassin if you can have a diver.

RsViagraFeb 22, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Even if it wasn't directly stated, fact is that the design of divers points in the direction that they are supposed to be weaker at escaping than engaging.

speedbuff just works towards enemies, ult can be bodyblocked to prevent escape and it has a more generous hitbox at the start to make that possible.

good engage with Q and ult, but just her Q can be used without a target, her Q can be bodyblocked to prevent her escape and she slows down while charging it up.

her E is basically her only form of mobility with fairly high CD. If she engaged with it, she can't get out for quite some time. Attempt to escape can get interrupted since E is telegraphed and she just gets extended range for it towards enemies.

mobility is targeted, just works towards enemies.

Same for her.

Divers are fighters able to reach the priority target, having the damage to be the killing threat for them and enough durability to stay in the fight, since it gets pretty hard to escape from the middle of the enemy team.

If they become great at escaping.... Why do we have assassins? Divers can kill the enemy carry just like them, while being tankier. If they become great at escaping, there is no point to bring an Assassin if you can have a diver.

Youll notice something with all those champions, they have far better damage and late game potential. And all are still relevant in the meta, lee sin was already Anemic, this nerf actually makes him unusable.

Chembaron YamadaFeb 22, 20183 votes

I never said they should let him be like that, did I?

Point is: as a diver, I think he shouldn't have that ward hop at all. They can buff him to make him viable again, putting power in other aspects of his kit.

They removed the ward hop from Katarina and I think that was a good change. Yes, she got a rework with it giving her power in other parts of her kit.

But I prefer them doing this with Lee than keeping the ward hop mechanic.

Fear the KaynFeb 22, 20182 votes

It didn't kill him, it just made him less mobile, which I feel was needed. He still does the same amount of damage, just without the insane mobility.

You still have trinket wards for when you want to try anything crazy.

RsViagraFeb 22, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fear the Kayn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=02HKrF7N,comment-id=001b,timestamp=2018-02-22T06:38:37.663+0000)

It didn't kill him, it just made him less mobile, which I feel was needed. He still does the same amount of damage, just without the insane mobility.

You still have trinket wards for when you want to try anything crazy.

his entire kit has been balanced around ward hops, without them, he is half the jungler he was, and he was not even strong to begin with in this meta.

Teridax68Feb 22, 20182 votes

My opinion on this, as a Lee Sin non-main, is that I would much prefer him to be balanced around not exploiting items for free-targeted dashes, so that he can function well even in an environment with few wards, as well as offer more opportunities for his opponents to catch him. The age-old problem with Lee is that, when played well, he completely dominates the pacing of every fight, since he gets to choose exactly when he wants to go in, how long he wants to stay, and when he wants to leave. Pure assassins are controlled by the fact that they're squishy and their sustained damage pattern isn't all that great (they're still annoying when they escape, though), whereas Lee gets to do that, plus output comparable burst, while also having the DPS and sustain of a diver. This also circumvents a key diver weakness, in which divers are meant to be great at entering fights, but generally incapable of easily leaving them unless they fight their way through first. Perhaps Lee deserves to play with those features a little more, owing to his unique and iconic design, but this should entail genuine, unique weaknesses as well. Until then, limiting his number of available get-out-of-jail free cards (and he still has a warding trinket to fall back on) is likely to make him easier to balance, and less frustrating to play against.

RsViagraFeb 22, 20181 votes

{quoted}

My opinion on this, as a Lee Sin non-main, is that I would much prefer him to be balanced around not exploiting items for free-targeted dashes, so that he can function well even in an environment with few wards, as well as offer more opportunities for his opponents to catch him. The age-old problem with Lee is that, when played well, he completely dominates the pacing of every fight, since he gets to choose exactly when he wants to go in, how long he wants to stay, and when he wants to leave. Pure assassins are controlled by the fact that they're squishy and their sustained damage pattern isn't all that great (they're still annoying when they escape, though), whereas Lee gets to do that, plus output comparable burst, while also having the DPS and sustain of a diver. This also circumvents a key diver weakness, in which divers are meant to be great at entering fights, but generally incapable of easily leaving them unless they fight their way through first. Perhaps Lee deserves to play with those features a little more, owing to his unique and iconic design, but this should entail genuine, unique weaknesses as well. Until then, limiting his number of available get-out-of-jail free cards (and he still has a warding trinket to fall back on) is likely to make him easier to balance, and less frustrating to play against.

Except despite this supposed op ability, hes been terrible and out of meta for a long time. The ward hop is what makes lee sin, lee sin. His dps outside of the early game is trash, any game past 25 mins is an auto loss almost for lee.

Teridax68Feb 22, 20181 votes

Or, put another way, Lee Sin has been balanced to fall off super-hard at most levels of play precisely because of such an iconic ability, which gives him a lot of agency no matter how "terrible" it is (and Safeguard has only received buffs in recent times, including much better usability). One leads into the other, which is why I think making Lee Sin less frustrating would allow him to be made much stronger. While I agree that his ward hop is iconic on him due to having been with him for so long, the same thing was said of Katarina, to the point where many players said she'd be unplayable if her rework removed it. Fast-forward to now, and for all her flaws, that change only benefited her in the long run. Lee Sin's fanbase has historically been heavily opposed to any sort of change to him, but catering to only that group has come at the expense of everyone else, and the game as a whole, as the entire jungle, along with many junglers, was designed and balanced around keeping Lee Sin under control, instead of him being fixed directly. As such, much of the game's current problems with kit overload and ongoing diversity problems stem directly from Lee Sin and his design, including his ward hop.

RsViagraFeb 22, 20181 votes

As such, much of the game's current problems with kit overload and ongoing diversity problems stem directly from Lee Sin and his design, including his ward hop.

You are kidding me right?

Teridax68Feb 22, 20181 votes

I am completely serious, not because this is my own opinion, but because Riot themselves have stated that Lee Sin having a bit of every mechanic led to a lot of subsequent junglers being designed with similarly overloaded kit (Elise being one such example). Additionally, because he could do a little bit of everything, he was dominant for a long time, preventing other junglers from being as popular or as strong without being similarly overloaded. This also affected the rest of the jungle, which had to be balanced around champions having healthy and quick clears, and which put less loaded junglers at a disadvantage for quite some time. It's only after an overhaul that the jungle opened up properly to more junglers, and even then, Lee's still been an outlier on occasion.

Hexs FortuneFeb 22, 20182 votes

Lee was fine before trackers knife, he'll be fine after

RsViagraFeb 22, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hexs Fortune,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=02HKrF7N,comment-id=0021,timestamp=2018-02-22T17:23:46.417+0000)

Lee was fine before trackers knife, he'll be fine after

before trackers knife there was sightstone, guess whats missing to?

JoeMGFeb 22, 20181 votes

I feel you OP. I've had less success with The Lee Sin this season as it is. Gunna be rough.

DisembarkFeb 22, 20181 votes

"Top of the jungle" "Best in the jungle for so long"

What are these people smoking? Lee's been garbage since 7.9

StarboyˇFeb 22, 20181 votes

or you could just buy control wards and have to pay 75 gold for your dumb escape you shouldn't have

Denims Wrath666Feb 22, 20181 votes

ill say it for like the 100th time, BRING BACK WRIGGLES. now would be the perfect time to save lee and jax players. not feral flare, old wriggles. make the ward a YELLOW ward (cant tp to it, but can ward hop) last 20 seconds, 1 minute cd

SonicBoom500Feb 22, 20181 votes

umm, sry if I made someone angry, I can understand why tracker's knife would be good on lee sin but why can't he use the stalker's blade or skirmisher's sabre...?

LyingOnLineFeb 22, 20181 votes

Not F

that's the respect he gets

DeathBurstFeb 22, 20181 votes

Gross overstatement, and a prime example of why we can't have nice discussion on this board. A nerf to Lee, sure. Killing him? Well, I'll believe it when I see the body. Tons of other champs have survived through a nerf, no reason Lee won't be able to.

Troll for TrumpFeb 22, 20181 votes

Anyone who says this won't kill Lee probably doesn't have much experience with him. Wardhops are crucial to a huge part of his ganking, invading, and teamfight.

12FootBlackGarenFeb 22, 20181 votes

He will probably get a buff in some other aspect tho.

Devilreaper XIIIFeb 22, 20181 votes

doubt it will be a real nerf XD its like riot nerfing riven just to find out shes still op as always .o.

RsViagraFeb 22, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Devilreaper XIII,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=02HKrF7N,comment-id=0020,timestamp=2018-02-22T14:23:03.728+0000)

doubt it will be a real nerf XD its like riot nerfing riven just to find out shes still op as always .o.

His kit was always revolved around ward hopping for years now. Literally riot has balanced him for years on the assumption that was how he would be played, you don't think removing that changes everything?

Its like removing khazix's jump. Yes, its that level of change.

Devilreaper XIIIFeb 22, 20181 votes

{quoted}

His kit was always revolved around ward hopping for years now. Literally riot has balanced him for years on the assumption that was how he would be played, you don't think removing that changes everything?

Its like removing khazix's jump. Yes, its that level of change.

adapt, lee still does damage, at least now he might not get away with it.... hes been way too opressive the past few years :/

RsViagraFeb 22, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Devilreaper XIII,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=02HKrF7N,comment-id=002000000000,timestamp=2018-02-22T17:23:10.062+0000)

adapt, lee still does damage, at least now he might not get away with it.... hes been way too opressive the past few years :/

he has not been even a mid tier jungle in a long time, he falls off past 20 minutes into garbage and now hes not even mobile in a meta with huge mobility creep. Im sorry but you having a few bad games vs a lee does not mean he was oppressive.

Devilreaper XIIIFeb 23, 20181 votes

{quoted}

he has not been even a mid tier jungle in a long time, he falls off past 20 minutes into garbage and now hes not even mobile in a meta with huge mobility creep. Im sorry but you having a few bad games vs a lee does not mean he was oppressive.

learn how to play with lee??

RsViagraFeb 25, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Devilreaper XIII,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=02HKrF7N,comment-id=00200000000000000000,timestamp=2018-02-23T11:40:19.210+0000)

learn how to play with lee??

oh look, some one who does not know what he is talking about. :)

Devilreaper XIIIFeb 26, 20181 votes

{quoted}

oh look, some one who does not know what he is talking about. :)

i'm talking about lee O,O

AlienPrimateFeb 22, 20181 votes

You could always do what I have been seeing some tank junglers doing. Just get relic shield first back and take some cs every time you enter a lane. This will give you a sightstone by around 12 minutes.