Is azir, an ap, supposed to outscale wukong, an ad melee???

Too Ton·Dec 24, 2014·1 votes·1,233 views

I beat him bad in lane but when teamfights came he dominated.... plus he had his turret thing so I could only kill him and his turret (first) and usually not past that.

8 Comments

DarthSpectrumDec 24, 20142 votes

Short Answer: Yes, Azir will outscale Wukong because of item mechanics.

Due to both champion being AA reliant, how much damage they do is purely based on how much attack stat they have. AP is much easier to stack then AD, and as well, Azir can afford to build full damage since he is ranged and that most AP items come with some defensive stats while Wukong will have to build tank items to not get ripped apart in a team fight.

Beating Azir in lane isn't that special; I do not think I have ever seen an Azir dominate his lane. He has one of the lowest base MS and health pools in the rooster, and does not get a dash until level 3. However, being a mage, he is suppose to win team fights. His sand soldiers' AA can hit multiple targets, and his passive plus ult can zone out an entire team.

Azir is meant to be a late game champion. If you are having trouble, play or ask someone to play an assassin for mid lane instead. Someone such as Zed can shut down Azir in all phrases of the game.

TehNACHODec 24, 20142 votes

Yes.

Azir tends to scale on Attack Speed and CDR, scaling stats, while the most fed Wukongs tend to build like AD Assassins, Flat AD and Armor Pen, flat stats.

Scaling stats like AS, CDR, Critical Chance, and percentage based Penetration/Reduction tend to out scale flat stats like AD, AP, and Flat Penetration. Azir builds a lot of scaling stats, Wukong tends to build a lot of flat stats. There's a pretty clear winner in terms of who's going to beat who in terms of scaling power.

Teridax68Dec 24, 20142 votes

AD champions do not automatically outscale AP champions. In fact, the bulk of AD champions (bruisers) tend to have some of the poorest late-game scaling around. While marksmen and certain melee light fighters like MasterYi and Yasuo (basically, champions who could qualify as ADCs) do tend to scale the best, some AP champions have extremely good late games. Karthus , Fizz and Orianna have infamously strong late games, for example, and Azir probably scales the hardest out of any AP champion. MonkeyKing happens to be one of the better-scaling bruisers around, but is still a bruiser.

Sightless66Dec 24, 20141 votes

Is he supposed not to because he's AP? I'm not sure why the question is phrased that way. Are you asking if AP champions are supposed to be outscaled by any AD melee champion? If so, the answer is no, they aren't supposed to. Some will be, some won't. There is nothing about AP champions or melee AD champions that guarantees certain scaling.

Azir scales well. He's not hard to beat in lane, particularly for a bursty mobile champion like Wukong. He can still do well later.

Too TonDec 24, 20141 votes

I thought generally ad outscaled ap. That's why adc and melee ad like fiora and stuff do so much late game compared to mids.

ModThe DjinnDec 24, 20141 votes

[{quoted}](name=Too Ton,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=02FaQveU,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2014-12-24T04:26:07.710+0000)

I thought generally ad outscaled ap. That's why adc and melee ad like fiora and stuff do so much late game compared to mids.

Nope. Fiora, Yi, Tryndamere, and many Marksman are high-scaling characters though: they're designed to have damage that gets obscene with late-game itemization.

A lot of it has to do with the ratios and steroids on a champion's kit. Wukong has decent ratios (he can be built as an assassin), but he's usually best served as a slightly tanky bruiser/initiator, since his kit has initiation moves and a powerful teamfight Ultimate. But he's not designed to rival the damage of hard carries like Vayne, Fiora, Azir, and the like.

Sightless66Dec 24, 20142 votes

Not quite that simple I'm afraid.

AD champions can scale well in terms of DPS if they build a combination of attack speed, crit chance, ad and % armor penetration. This combination gives this highest dps potential in the game (outside of exceptions that I will discuss shortly). However, Wukong does not build these stats. His dps doesn't scale the same way theirs does.

With that established, something to note is that Wukong actually scales much better than some champions who do build those stats. For example, Fiora can build all of those, but she's quite bad late game because despite her high damage, her intrinsic weaknesses (very predictable, very squishy, extremely short range on her ultimate) can't make up for it. The CC from Wukong's ultimate and the power his armor penetration gives make him much stronger late game than Fiora, even though Fiora has higher DPS. I'd actually apply this to most melee AD carries. They are strong midgame, but their lategames suffer because their insane damage output can't make up for their huge weaknesses in the late game. Wukong outclasses many of them. In fact, Wukong is stronger late game than many AD carries despite AD carries typically being a strong late game class.

That doesn't mean that AP champions don't scale well. Some do, such as Azir, who scales because of a combination of extremely high dps and high safety. Other good scalers are champions like Karthus, who can put out more damage than virtually anyone else in the game. Others, such as Le'Blanc, see large falloffs in their damage and dps later game.

So, to put this very simply; you can't establish a simple heirarchy such as X scales better than Y scales better than Z. There are always, always exceptions. The only thing you can say is that in very rough terms, autoattacking champions (not just AD champions, straight autoattackers) will usually have better dps late game than non-autoattackers.