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What Does a Non-Karma Main Think of Karma? You Down-vote & Harass With No Explanation

Winterkill··10 votes·1,687 views

Almost every non-Karma champion main downvotes, belittles, harasses, get virtually upset, and antagonizes a Karma main who has an opinion about her. Let's all agree that this champion hasn't been given fair treatment and continues to be a major eyesore in terms of poor work. The major problem actually lies in a community of players that don't want to admit poor workmanship and support actual positive work on a champion that has irrefutable proof of a poor rework/VGU. If a player doesn't play Karma but mains Ryze, Aatrox, Ahri, Lux, Wukong . . . . they will flame, harass, belittle and immediately down-vote a Karma related thread. These players constantly want attention towards their champion and have everyone advocate for change on them, and most of the time Karma mains and so many other champion communities back them up. Unfortunately there seems to be a backhanded trend with other champion communities in relation with Karma: they don't care and will always be negative about it.

For the past 6-7 years Karma has zero work done on her kit. The minimal amounts of work that were done on her kit have been counter-productive because it is either buffed or nerfed right after. If Support itemization doesn't favor Karma (and many of the other older generation Enchanter supports) or they are numbers buffed into oblivion, they are sitting at some of the lowest playrates. Riot had to buff Karma's Mantra E to make her even relevant in the game to be worthy of a Conqueror skin, but everyone had a problem with that because it was way overbuffed and Support itemization was too strong. These Developers knowingly buffed a champion with a poorly executed VGU/kit that was later nerfed because nothing else continues to be done on her. If players actually want a rundown about Karma's kit problems then I will give you it.

  1. Karma has no actual gameplay identity. There is nothing in this game Karma does better than any other champion who does it actually better. This was even the case before newer champions and VGU like Taric. Karma is outclassed as a mage and support and abused as a sustained-top lane but still doesn't even do that successfully. I think the question that everyone really needs to answer is, what does Karma do better than any other champion in the game?
  2. Karma's kit makes no sense and has absolutely no skill expression. Her only damage move has the range of an Artillery mage but the strength of a Poke mage, since they had to buff the initial hit because the second tick of damage continues to be unreliable. Karma has no hard CC but her Mantra E is abused in an entirely different role. Karma's Mantra E is the most generic and uninteresting part of her kit because it promotes her to be nothing more than a shield bot.
  3. All of her basic and Mantra abilities exist in the game. Q and Mantra Q is just a basic skillshot with an unreliable second tick of damage. W and Mantra W is a simple tether with no-so-great CC or damage, but an abusive heal that has no place on her kit. E and Mantra is just like every other shield in the game with a speed steroid, but the actual effect of Mantra E can be replicated on item actives. How unique and interesting is Karma's kit compared to any current mages or supports? It's not because all of it exists in the game currently and she doesn't do anything special with her kit. Champions with better kits, gameplay identities, and more unique abilities are just better at her job.

==============

What the potential rework didn't accomplish earlier this year:

  1. Didn't address concerns with Karma's gameplay identity and functionality of parts of her kit.
  2. It didn't give much skill expression to basic and Mantra abilities.
  3. Mage Karma was not taken into consideration at all and the rework was completely one sided towards Support. What's even more of a problem was that they tried to gate Mage Karma's strength and abilities behind a Mantra timeout/load system.
  4. The Developer (and Meddler) in charge didn't listen and continues to not listen to the vast majority of Karma players that want a champion who does more than sit in the backline and press Mantra E or uses Mantra Q and hopes it hit something.

==============

The problem lies solely on this Development team that have nothing but excuses for 7 years now as to why Karma cannot get the work she needs. What iconic art and kit directions Karma did have, was removed for subpar content that has yet to be updated. New champions are being made a top priority in terms of reworks. Champions like Aatrox, Akali, and Ryze seem to get something every single year/patch. Myself and so many other players from the Karma community fought hard for a Wukong, Lissandra, Morde and other champion reworks. When push comes to shove, Wukong, Lissandra, Morde and other champion communities are the first to belittle, downvote, harass, and name call a Karma player who has been maining her since season 2 and trying to advocate positive work for her. You all have the last 7 years of minimal amounts of work on this champion that was buffed and then nerfed, Developer inconsistency in what they want to do with Karma, and a huge community of players that want actual change on their main champion. You got it and received all the proof, history, and feedback you wanted. Yet, you still sit here and downvote players who actually play the champion while you reap the rewards of another community actually having your back and giving proper feedback for change on your champions.

I want everyone to answer these three questions for me:

  1. What do you think makes this champion iconic and the first thing that comes to your mind about her?
  2. What does Karma do better than any other Mage, Tank, or Support in League of Legends? 3 What do you think defines Karma and makes her unique?

25 Comments

letsfeedtogether3 votes

I dont have to give you an explanation for ****my ****up/down vote

Winterkill5 votes

You don't but you actually prove my point 100%.

letsfeedtogether3 votes

And how is that?

Winterkill6 votes

You didn't actually answer the question or give constructive feedback. You came into a thread with no intention other than to stir up drama. You got the feedback, history, and explanation. If the only reason you came into this thread was to stroke your tiny ego, then I ask this of you again.

  1. What do you think makes this champion iconic and the first thing that comes to your mind about her?
  2. What does Karma do better than any other Mage, Tank, or Support in League of Legends? 3 What do you think defines Karma and makes her unique?
letsfeedtogether2 votes

Ok first off all. Ego or not ego. You said this iur self. The down votes. It looks like yor ego is so big that you think people down vote you because they dont want to hear it or something. And not because your wrong (talking about ego)

1 her ult

2 mass 5 player shield with our a skill shot

3 her ult

Winterkill3 votes
  1. A much poorer version of Heimerdinge's Ult.
  2. Item Locket of Solari active, Sivr Ult, and Shurelya active.
  3. Not that amazing since I just answered it in number 1 for ya. The Mantra offer really no skill expression that is unique to Karma or the game.
letsfeedtogether1 votes

1 Not the samething.

2 sivir ult dosent give a massive shield

3 did not understand you.

Epicebixia2 votes

Come on man, I understand if English isn't your first language, but these poorly worded arguments make you look like an idiot.

letsfeedtogether3 votes

Oh you're right. The fact i fogot to put a same thing

Makes me an idiot. Btw your logic is stupid.

Epicebixia2 votes

I can't even argue with this, I have no idea what is being said here lol.

letsfeedtogether6 votes

sorry to tell you but i think that;s your English problems then...

Epicebixia5 votes

Okay EUNE!

The thigh guy3 votes

My only issue with karma is that her mantra q is actually not dodgeable without mobility or t2 boots.

Winterkill4 votes

And that's partly because they front-load the initial hit with tons of damage, the range is too long, and they buffed it into oblivion to compensate for the fact that nothing else in her kit actually does damage or is good.

The thigh guy2 votes

{quoted}

And that's partly because they front-load the initial hit with tons of damage, the range is too long, and they buffed it into oblivion to compensate for the fact that nothing else in her kit actually does damage or is good.

That’s the thing, she isn’t even really picked for her damage, even though it’s stupidly high. If she’s picked it’s for her aoe shield, which is also a team wide ms boost, which also applies ardent to her entire time.

That alone is insane.

usul12022 votes

Personally, I find karma mains on the boards to act entitled and generally holier-than-thou (ironic coming from me, but eh) about their champ. I'd agree that current karma isn't a good thing. I'd also say that she's not game breaking, and she doesn't ruin games by existing, which delays her priority.

Look at what happens when they say they're gonna rework fid (who I think is in the exact same spot as karma, low interaction kit, low champion fantasy fulfillment, kit not doing its original intent). No one's spamming the boards on what they demand riot does, there's not 8 different directions (shield bomb, tether mechanics, remove shielding power, load more into q, q shouldn't do anything, remove supportive capability, etc) that vocal people are pulling out. Sure there's a some posts, but people are letting riot work (for now) and it seems to me that the result will be a better use of their time for net game happiness, especially because fid's class fantasy is far easier to work out than karmas.

Meanwhile, if you look at neurocat's post about updating karma 7 months ago, there's like, 3 constructive posters, and a lot of "this is super dissapointing, bring back shield bomb", and a lot of commentary that was effectively "fuck her new support player base, you didn't make a mage". And beyond that, if you go back 7 months, you'd find a ton of gameplay posts on karma, all the same post over and over.

She's not healthy, but I don't think she's at a stage where she deserves the level of work y'all demand to fix her, and so when you make the same thread for the 15th time, I feel that's a place to downvote since it's no new discussion and the previous ones clearly didn't facilitate thought exchange. (this is new though, which is something)

Winterkill2 votes

https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/karma

She is only relevant when Ardent is buffed or the champion itself is buffed. Mantra E was buffed and it catapulted her into relevancy and nerfed shortly after because it was not very interactive and it was the only reason she received a conqueror skin. When Ardent was nerfed alongside all other shield implication itemization she took a hit. Then shield duration was nerfed which hit her even harder. Karma's kit and entire existence is only acknowledged when her kit is overbuffed or itemization favors her. Before they buffed Ardent and the other shield amplifying itemization, Karma sat at the lowest Support/Mage play, ban and winrate than any other champion. The kit is a mess and she is outclassed as a Mage, Support and Top laner.

You talk about her not being healthy, but you also don't talk about the fact that she offers nothing new to the game with her kit, art or identity. Riot Games did this and they created this champion. Karma was very unique and iconic before the VGU. These Developers had 7 years to do the most minimal amount of work on her . . . and they looked past it for another Ryze rework, popular champion rework, and opportunity to give something new to a new champion. When is it this champion's turn to get the gameplay update she deserves?

You talk about Fiddles but he is getting a VGU alongside so many other champions that obviously deserve art updated and more in depth kit changes than she does. Karma needs the same amount of attention that champions like Ryze, Aatrox, Ahri, Lux, Ezreal, and so many other champions get every single year. It's been seven years dude . . . . and you talk about her not being a problem . . . when she is only a problem when they overbuff her poorly conceptualized kit or the itemization she uses. That's a problem in itself if a champion is only looked at and thought of when you have to overbuff her itemization or part of her poorly thought out kit.

usul12021 votes

I never commented on her relevancy. I realize that I did not respond to your comments on what to do with karma, and maybe that's where you came from here. I'm pretty much just commenting on the treatment of Karma commenters on the boards. I don't enjoy playing her, I don't know what to do with her. I have commented my opinions on a rework based on how well I think that rework would fit into the current league of legends though, which is the only opinion on her I can validly bring.

I think if Riot put a 'minimal amount of work on her' y'all would go absolutely berserk on them. Your second paragraph is almost exactly pointing out why I responded to this thread: you ignored my point, and went on about how she deserves an update and how more popular champs get shit. Well, guess what. Riot is a business, and has limited resources. Ryze gets a lot of work, he's also a massive moneymaker (and he was still left in dumpster mode for a bit, only playable by the best). Aatrox got ignored for like, 5 years, got a rework, and then a number of changes because he was game breaking (which, Karma is not). Ahri is nerf immune.... and rarely gets touched. She got one thing in season 8, a swap of her ms and healing on passive and q, plus a damage amp on charm at the cost of base stats. Lux? in season 7 she got cdr on ult kills, and shield could double stack. That's it. If you got Lux level work, you karma mains would go fucking nuts. Ezreal is literally the same. Sure he gets a good bit of +/- damage patches, but that's nothing on the VGU side. He got a W change. That's less than the proposed Karma changes that y'all shot down.

This is why I downvote y'alls threads. You're wrong about tons of other champs getting more love in the VGU department (some do, most don't), and are so entitled about your rework. And you want to play the 'only a problem when strong' card? Rework Scarner, Diana (she exemplifies that problem), Ivern, Nid, and poor freaking Shaco too. None of them have more priority than Karma, and none of them have less in my eyes. They've all got similar problems about the health of their kits/strength levels), and Riot has no idea what to do with them, so the work input to make a proper result, which doesn't leave people pissed off for 7 years would be huge.

Illabethe2 votes

Let me put it this way:

I was fine with Karma when Celerity still gave stats. When Celerity gave stats based on move speed, Karma was temporarily a powerhouse when built to exploit Celerity.

And ...... then Riot nerfed Celerity because adcs were abusing it for raw power, and skirmish junglers were abusing it.

Why didn't I mind her at this point?

I could run 770 move speed temporarily around ANY target in the game. Q when not on Mantra could do a little more damage. Nimbus Cloak compensated for her lack of damage by fueling more AP, and worked perfectly with her ult.

There was even mage items worth boosting celerity into that build.

I aggravated Fizzes and Oriannas on this build, playing her mid.

But.....

Then...... after Celerity was nerfed, I had the "pleasure" of playing Karma vs a Lux Mid.

Lux literally missed 90% of her skills vs me..... and I mean that. It didn't matter, because Lux has been buffed and buffed and buffed to increase her profile.

Because of the fact Lux is about 5 times as spammable as Karma, it DIDN'T MATTER. The 10% she did hit...... won the lane. On the other hand, the 95% I hit her...... couldn't do enough to win.

And....... It's not like I fed or lost hard. I just couldn't control the lane pressure. Lux could E and then clear a wave, and still have her Q Karma could waste a Q, clear 2/3 of a wave, and really not have an offensive tool left. And then after 6, Lux could do the same, except she also had R.

After some 10 minutes of back and forth, Lux just easily pushed the lane to nothing, no matter what I did.

The reason I bring this up: I don't consider Lux altogether strong. She's slow, and if she Q's and misses, she's generally dead by most champs.

But, the trade very heavily illustrated what a mage meta champion can do versus what Karma can ACTUALLY do. Before that, I was comparing Karma to melees. I was comparing her to auto attack based mages. People who, when you played perfectly, could be stomped by Karma's 1v1 kit.

But that's the gist....... it takes playing her perfect to make an impact. Some other champs can just hit 10-20% of the time and do well (Zoe Zyra Lux Morgana Brand

It turned out..... Celerity and perfect aim was carrying me, not champ viability.

So...... Season 9 I've mostly shelved Karma.

I am not an advocate of Karma Shield Bomb. I've seen it.

I was looking forward to the changes that WERE going to be implemented for Karma Mana/Cooldown to ally QoL changes. They would have probably compensated the profile loss Celerity took from her. People who mained her probably would have been fine.

Now...... I'd just like them to implement W heal scaling to larger amounts of AP. (getting like 1.24% for 900 AP is a joke compared to champs like Sylas or WW)

ZephyrDrake2 votes

ok... first not everyone who downvotes karma threads are "non karma mains". Pretty certain that even karma mains will downvote any thread about her that doesn't fit what they want to be done with the champion, or because the changes some other karma mains propose since they don't think it'll do anything.

Velasan1 votes

Right... well, I don't think Karma's kit makes a lot of sense either... but opening with the concept that all non karma mains should have no input and anyone down voting you is "harassing" you is not a good way to start a conversation.

I can understand the pain of giving constructive criticism and having it largely ignored. Has happened to me multiple times, starting with the Viktor rework then the Zac game play update and so on.

But if you're objective is to galvanize people into action you can't do that by calling them out in your first sentence.

Personally I'd like to see Karmas balance concept come into play more; either by letting you choose between being a better shielder or poke champ (yin and yang) or by giving her some kind of good/bad Karma system.

Then again I'm not a Karma main. When I support I go Nami, followed by some combination of Sona, Bard, Thresh or Blitzcrank.

Saezio1 votes

I liked season 1-2 karma better. Even if she was used even less than now back then.

What made her unique? SHIELDBOMBARDMENT What she did better than other champions? Frustrate top laners What makes her unique? Pick conqueror Karma with Aery and give red aery shield :D

Winterkill2 votes

Exactly.

Fluffeh1 votes

cringe

Νami1 votes

Not quite related to the thread but I thought you might want to see that Karma is getting a buff.

Source: https://twitter.com/RiotJatt/status/1135680607848058881?s=20

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