Can we just do some maths here?

Unreformed Shaco·Jun 22, 2017·2 votes·856 views

Assuming you're playing crit/AD build here on Shaco lets just run down his damage output. Before you downvote, this is purely informational. If you disagree, state what is incorrect.

are core on top winrate builds, with reoccuring items.

Let's just go with the first 6.

These items provide the following: AD -376 AS - 1.41 Crit - 50%

Now let's see where his added damage is.

Passive provides 0 damage, because he gets a standard crit from IE/Shiv, not a from his passive. Q provides 0 damage, because it is only an auto attack, not even a reset. W provides a MAXIMUM 475 damage, if target has 0MR and eats the full duration. More commonly though, it dies before entering stealth, or the target moves in any direction for roughly 0.75 seconds. E provides 400 damage, not including the missing health affix (which is 160 for 2000 missing health) and taken before MR, which reduces it to 300 without buying any. R either dies, walks off to attack a minion, afks in a bush or decides to actually attack something and then dies immediately due to bonus damage taken. Is also likely to throw Shaco further away from target, or into tower range.

Yes, that is right folks, the "Assassins" kit has a combined total of 400 reliable damage, not including auto attacks.

You can legitimately build these same 6 items on every single champion in League of Legends and do the same damage, but majority of champs would at least benefit from the high AD for scaling.

He has no modifiers, no steroids, no on-hits or on-attacks.

Why does this exist?

28 Comments

SasogwaJun 22, 20172 votes

But all the burst here is caused by shiv, spellblade from trinity, the crit and the ravenous hydra auto-reset. Why do you purposely choose to ignore it?

It would be like saying, let's talk about Yasuo's damage, but we'll ignore his autoattacks and Q.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRQegcmFcTn9FGkEps4L91T4hQBAp7YPBXonOwE-VXN-9S29fkE

Unreformed ShacoJun 22, 20171 votes

The difference is, every single champ can buy those items... I can't purchase a Yasuo Q.

If Zilean built those same items, he would do the same damage. Zilean is now an assassin.

Darkdemon653Jun 22, 20172 votes

{quoted}

R either dies, walks off to attack a minion, afks in a bush or decides to actually attack something and then dies immediately due to bonus damage taken.

Hold alt and right click your target.

Unreformed ShacoJun 22, 20171 votes

I know how to use it, it was more a point of really stupid clone AI doing its own thing a lot of the time.

R7 FactorJun 22, 20171 votes

The "assassin" build is more of a mis-classification. He's more of a skirmisher like Yasuo MasterYi Tryndamere with this build

Unreformed ShacoJun 22, 20171 votes

Except he doesnt get 70% reduction on demand, or a windwall, or a shield, or a heal, or aoe, or undying.

His kit is very much like a skirmisher, in the sense that is relies almost entirely on auto attacks.

The problem is, all of the above get steroids or modifiers. Shaco doesn't.

PermabannedGarenJun 22, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Except he doesnt get 70% reduction on demand, or a windwall, or a shield, or a heal, or aoe, or undying.

His kit is very much like a skirmisher, in the sense that is relies almost entirely on auto attacks.

The problem is, all of the above get steroids or modifiers. Shaco doesn't.

So do you just not know what his ultimate does or something?

Unreformed ShacoJun 26, 20171 votes

His ultimate scales with his damage. If you build damage, you are squishy. Clone takes additional damage. If you build damage so you clone does damage, you clone dies faster than you do.

If you build tanky so your clone lives, your clone does little damage.

ESPECIALLY after next cycle when they force you build lethality.

His clone is really only used for an iframe, and doing clone bomb trick, but thats very situational and rarely pulled off.

R7 FactorJun 22, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Except he doesnt get 70% reduction on demand, or a windwall, or a shield, or a heal, or aoe, or undying.

His kit is very much like a skirmisher, in the sense that is relies almost entirely on auto attacks.

The problem is, all of the above get steroids or modifiers. Shaco doesn't.

Did you just forget shaco has a clone?

Unreformed ShacoJun 26, 20171 votes

Clone that takes 50% additional damage, deals less damage.

Every Shaco player uses it purely to iframe. Fizz the assassin gets iframe on 4 second cooldown. Shaco gets it on 80.

nm1010Jun 22, 20171 votes

Build still does 927.78 dps without masteries enhancing damage. Throw in that 400 reliable damage and you get 1327.78 burst, that's actually not bad at all considering statik trinity hydra proc plus masteries add to it.

Unreformed ShacoJun 22, 20171 votes

So all damage from external source, but nerf the champ.

A total of 1.3k burst before armor on an assassin? By god, thats almost enough to kill a level 12 Teemo with no armor items.

nm1010Jun 22, 20172 votes

Considering 90% of that damage is front loaded (and mixed with statik) + you have a magic damage execute you can easily kill a lot more than just a teemo.

For instance 1 auto + hydra + E on average (It is actually much higher if you crit) does ~2502.79 damage + 214.24 execute damage assuming they were full hp. This is basically unavoidable coming out of stealth so you can probably sneak in another auto or two as well.

Maybe if you actually did do the math you wouldn't complain so much.

Unreformed ShacoJun 24, 20171 votes

I really don't see where you are getting that from.

His opening auto attack will either do 250% or 130%, which is either 488 or 940. Statikk Shiv will do 208 or 400. Ravenous will do 376 at most. Sheen will do with 234.

Best case, 1950. Worst case 1306.

This is all before armor. Caitlyn with GA at 18 has 121 armor and 51MR, giving 55% a reduction to physical and a 34% reduction to magic. Also has 1885 health. Take armor into account in the above, and you are looking at

(9400.45)+(4000.66)+(3760.45)+(2340.45) = 961 (4880.45)+(2080.66)+(3760.45)+(2340.45) = 631

So if you are lucky, you will be able to do half of her health, if not you do 1/3. At this health, shiv will do either 476 or 450 before reduction, moving it to 314/297.

Then she nets and headshots you, healing back 200 health while slowing and chunking you. Shame you already used your only gapclose ability.

Considering 90% of that damage is front loaded

Like Kha'Zix, Rengar, Akali and practically every single assassin in the game, most of which do it from stealth as well.

In fact anyone who builds these items will have their damage front loaded.

And this is full build. I have no issues with his full build damage.

It's early-mid that sucks (4-11), where he struggles to pull off 300 damage on a midlaner without ignite.

nm1010Jun 25, 20171 votes

The average damage damage increase from crit is

ad x (((1 + crit chance) x crit damage increase) + 1)

So 376 x (((1 + .5) x .5) + 1) = 376 x 1.75 = 658 for an auto

376 for Hydra

400 for E

257.7 for thunderlords

234 for trinity

And 160 x 1.75 crit multiplier = 280

Add that up and you get 2205.7 then you multiply that by damage amps in the mastery trees (I run bounty hunter but I'll switch to double edged sword this time) and you get 2205.7 x 1.05 = ~2316 with a 194.54 damage execute

So 1378.3 physical damage reduced by 55% = 620.24

1031.94 Magical damage reduced by 34% = 681.08

Total damage = 1301.32 in a quarter of a second assuming you have absolutely 0 pen of any kind

From this point 2 more autos kill or you can red smite and ignite to let the dot finish her off. I'm so sorry you can't guaranteed 100% her instantly from stealth and need 2 extra auto's (~.75 seconds). I'll just continue playing Leblanc who has a built in 1.5 second kill delay with no % chance to ignore this kill time gate.

Of course this is just the average damage you do, an actual crit would wipe cait off the face of the earth while not criting wouldn't kill. You can pretty easily remedy this by just going a better build with sorcs and a PD. That build would bump the damage up to ~2750 on average with less mitigation.

Or in easier to understand terms it increases your burst by ~9% and increases your dps by ~20%.

Unreformed ShacoJun 26, 20171 votes

We aren't talking average though for a start.

If you backstab, it will either be a guaranteed 130% crit, or a guaranteed 250%. There isn't a need to average it.

For Thunderlord's also needs another auto attack and then Two Shiv.

Again though, this is speaking full build, where Shaco isn't weak.

I've said multiple times that it is early-mid game, where he doesn't have 400AD to scale with, doesn't have 50% crit to scale with and doesn't have base damages on his skills that his damage is lackluster. Late game he can rely on auto attacks, but early/mid game he can't.

Compare it with Kha'Zix He gets the stealth.

He gets the gap close. _ (At a longer range than Deceive, also gets reset on takedown)_

He get the opening auto attack (Which is much better than Shaco's as it doesn't rely on positioning and deals more damage. Kha does 150 + 0.4AD; Shaco gets 0.3 AD, unless he buys crit)

Yet Kha'Zix still gets a combined total of 320% bAD scaling on his abilities Vs Shaco's 0.75

If they are saying burst from stealth is unhealthy and that's why Shaco had to have his damage removed, why do they allow Kha and Eve to keep theirs?

Let's put it this way. Level 9, item 3117 item 1412 .

Shaco decieves in and deals 195 damage with his Q + Passive Kha Jumps in and deals 234 from his Passive + AA alone. He then uses Q for 330. That's 500 damage burst from 1 item, 300 more than Shaco, but it is Shaco's mid/early damage that needs nerfing?

You cannot seriously argue that his early/mid game damage is acceptable for someone labelled as an assassin.

The balance team has ALWAYS hated Shaco, because the community finds him annoying.

nm1010Jun 26, 20171 votes

We aren't talking average though for a start.

If you are talking crit you are talking averages, that formula is the reasonable amount of damage you can expect with the amount of crit you have.

Again though, this is speaking full build, where Shaco isn't weak.

Assassins have always had different power spikes, Shaco is now the late game assassin. I'm sorry if you don't like that, but plenty of other people don't like the path their assassin took post rework either.

If they are saying burst from stealth is unhealthy and that's why Shaco had to have his damage removed, why do they allow Kha and Eve to keep theirs?

Kha has stealth for 1.25 (2.5 if he evolves it[no one does] and is in the bush) compared to Shaco's 4.5 seconds of stealth. And Eve is up for a complete rework in the next month or two.

You cannot seriously argue that his early/mid game damage is acceptable for someone labelled as an assassin.

Assassin has never meant early game, it has meant highly skilled at killing one target and leaving. The build I suggested above has an 80% chance to delete an adc from stealth with 0 ways for them to stop it.

Which leads me into my last point, this absolute lack of counterplay is why Shaco has a higher winrate than either Kha'Zix or Eve. In fact he has the 3rd highest winrate in jungle at all, the next closest assassin is 10th...

https://i.gyazo.com/0d63499adcb83a8da0327291c5b91276.png

Unreformed ShacoJun 27, 20171 votes

Don't need average. He will never not crit if backstabbing.

Assassin has never meant early game, it has meant highly skilled at killing one target and leaving.

Really cause I see Kha get a reset allowing him to leave, Zed getting his switch back, Talon jumping over a wall, but sadly.. Shaco is stuck in there. He ults to buy time but that is about it.

Kha has stealth for 1.25 (2.5 if he evolves it[no one does] and is in the bush) compared to Shaco's 4.5 seconds of stealth

The difference is, Shaco Q is both his gapclose and his stealth. Kha'Zix can stealth for 1.25 and then leap 700 units. Both are reasonable for ganking. I am not saying that Shaco Q duration is crap, or that Kha'zix's is great. I am simply pointing out that he can burst from stealth just as Shaco could, but only lost damage. I would gladly trade less stealth time for the base damage back.

As for Shaco being the late game assassin, most other assassins do similar if not MORE damage than him late game.

He isn't "the" late game assassin, it is simply "he is only viable late game". His build is similar to that of an ADC, so he deals the same damage as them.

Who knows, the upcoming change to his E might make him better mid-game, but the math that people have done on shacomains show that he will be doing less damage with shiv during midgame, but more during late.

I don't see why they would fuck his already weaker mid game to buff his already strong late game.

I just really can't comprehend why they stripped away all his early damage without doing the same to others.

Unreformed ShacoJun 27, 20171 votes

Don't need average. He will never not crit if backstabbing.

Assassin has never meant early game, it has meant highly skilled at killing one target and leaving.

Really cause I see Kha get a reset allowing him to leave, Zed getting his switch back, Talon jumping over a wall, but sadly.. Shaco is stuck in there. He ults to buy time but that is about it.

Kha has stealth for 1.25 (2.5 if he evolves it[no one does] and is in the bush) compared to Shaco's 4.5 seconds of stealth

As for Shaco being the late game assassin, most other assassins do similar if not MORE damage than him late game.

He isn't "the" late game assassin, it is simply "he is only viable late game". His build is similar to that of an ADC, so he deals the same damage as them.

I don't see why they would fuck his already weaker mid game to buff his already strong late game.

I just really can't comprehend why they stripped away all his early damage without doing the same to others.

Also everyone knows champion.gg is crap, use op.gg. The only benefit of champ.gg is it shows how often said champ is played by the player. It lets you see that certain champs have dedicated mains, whereas Lee Sins are picked by every noob.

nm1010Jun 27, 20171 votes

Don't need average. He will [always] crit if backstabbing.

Unless you can show me some source of his back stab stacking with a regular crit then I think you don't understand your champion. Back stab is a crit for 130% damage increased to 195% with IE (If IE works on it, everything I've read says it does not after the rework), a regular crit is 200% damage increased to 250% with IE.

Do you see one of those numbers is much bigger? That means if you actually crit you are going to do a lot more damage than your back stab crit.

Really cause I see Kha get a reset allowing him to leave, Zed getting his switch back, Talon jumping over a wall, but sadly.. Shaco is stuck in there. He ults to buy time but that is about it.

Kha only gets a reset for a clean kill, GA makes that nearly impossible. Zed doesn't get stealth and Talon has to have a wall nearby, stop trying to compare 3 champions to 1 champion.

As for Shaco being the late game assassin, most other assassins do similar if not MORE damage than him late game.

Dps potential of Shaco + clone beats out any other assassin I will guarantee you. Not to mention shaco gets low cooldown execute damage from range plus box utility.

Who knows, the upcoming change to his E might make him better mid-game, but the math that people have done on shacomains show that he will be doing less damage with shiv during midgame, but more during late.

I hadn't seen this change before, that is actually ridiculous xD They want you to build an armor pen build, with jungle item + duskblade that does like 650 damage against someone under half hp. I guarantee you that with those numbers Shaco is broken next patch.

Also everyone knows champion.gg is crap, use op.gg.

https://i.gyazo.com/c77b2d5e56ea7e85cd368f409a13442d.png

https://i.gyazo.com/5d23aaf8145730e6664e9b077d222f2f.png

https://i.gyazo.com/0501d00077a76501ea96f6141e793558.png

Your champion is borderline broken, be happy he is being fine tuned towards what you want and not getting kneecapped.

VoraciousXJun 27, 20171 votes

{quoted}

If you are talking crit you are talking averages, that formula is the reasonable amount of damage you can expect with the amount of crit you have.

Assassins have always had different power spikes, Shaco is now the late game assassin. I'm sorry if you don't like that, but plenty of other people don't like the path their assassin took post rework either.

Kha has stealth for 1.25 (2.5 if he evolves it[no one does] and is in the bush) compared to Shaco's 4.5 seconds of stealth. And Eve is up for a complete rework in the next month or two.

Assassin has never meant early game, it has meant highly skilled at killing one target and leaving. The build I suggested above has an 80% chance to delete an adc from stealth with 0 ways for them to stop it.

Which leads me into my last point, this absolute lack of counterplay is why Shaco has a higher winrate than either Kha'Zix or Eve. In fact he has the 3rd highest winrate in jungle at all, the next closest assassin is 10th...

https://i.gyazo.com/0d63499adcb83a8da0327291c5b91276.png

Shaco doesn't have 4.5 seconds of stealth until at least level like 13. He starts with 1.5 seconds of stealth at level 2. Level 4 usually 2.5 seconds, and level 10 is 3.5. At least this is the current highest win rate skill order. The earliest you get 3.5 seconds is level 5, but you have no extra levels in your skills that do actual damage, so you'd just be getting extra invis time and lower CD. ALL Shaco level orders put Q maxed at level 13 though.

Also, just for you to look at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nopHWUZTT3k

nm1010Jun 27, 20171 votes

Considering we literally just did a full build calculation I am fairly certain Shaco would be level 18... If you had a point other than "He can't max stealth first" I'd love to hear it.

As for the video the guy at 1:45 literally says he might 1-shot with IE, then sells his fucking shiv for it..... Then freaks out when he doesn't crit for a kill.... Is he actually that stupid or was it just a lapse in brain function? Not to mention he is testing it on one of the most defensively built adcs in the game.

Edit: He built a LDR on Shaco... which is pretty questionable in this scenario... Then claimed it was a powerspike because he killed kass, when in reality he got an IE crit to delete Kass. This guy is everything wrong with balance opinions.

HE DOUBLE IE CRIT LUCIAN WITH 2300 HP + 84 ARMOR AND BLAMED TABI FOR WHY HE COULDN'T KILL BEFORE, THE IE CRIT MAKES OR BREAKS THE KILL.

VoraciousXJun 27, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Considering we literally just did a full build calculation I am fairly certain Shaco would be level 18... If you had a point other than "He can't max stealth first" I'd love to hear it.

As for the video the guy at 1:45 literally says he might 1-shot with IE, then sells his fucking shiv for it..... Then freaks out when he doesn't crit for a kill.... Is he actually that stupid or was it just a lapse in brain function? Not to mention he is testing it on one of the most defensively built adcs in the game.

Edit: He built a LDR on Shaco... which is pretty questionable in this scenario... Then claimed it was a powerspike because he killed kass, when in reality he got an IE crit to delete Kass. This guy is everything wrong with balance opinions.

HE DOUBLE IE CRIT LUCIAN WITH 2300 HP + 84 ARMOR AND BLAMED TABI FOR WHY HE COULDN'T KILL BEFORE, THE IE CRIT MAKES OR BREAKS THE KILL.

He sold his shiv for IE because he is trying to make Shaco work with 3 items, not 4. As he said, you can make it work AT 4 ITEMS now, but only AT 4 items. How is Shaco supposed to be any better than any other jungler to actually MAKE IT to 4 items? He was already good late game, so there's no need to compare late game, your E just deals a lot anyways late game, especially if you're going AP. As for the critting, your backstab is an automatic crit. He backstabbed twice, once with himself, once with his clone, and then needed to auto afterwards. You're supposed to be an assassin, and you have no escape mechanisms so why would you need to auto 2-4 times afterwards? You pretty much pop as Shaco unless they hit your clone instead of you, but now you can't one shot without your clone AND 4 items on an ADC with ninja tabi and a black cleaver. So tell me, aside from the bruiser build which is the only OP Shaco build as of writing this, how exactly are you supposed to make it to late game over the other junglers who actually CAN kill stuff. They took an entire ability's worth of damage off of Shaco, added only AP scaling to his passive, and his E is his ONLY AD damage source. He's basically a crit Soraka at this point if you build him crit, except he doesn't normally build 100% crit or even 80%. The only GOOD way to build Shaco atm is bruiser or AP(and you can't even 1 shot with AP unless you build basically every auto attack enhancing item you can, muramana which is AD + lich bane, and even then if they build any resists, you still can't. I've had to build duskblade into my AP builds to be able to one shot squishies JUST because of the true damage on the passive and it being another auto attack enhancer).

But please, explain to me how you know so much more than a Shaco main who was demoted to D1 because of how bad Shaco is right now, who's gone to only playing Shaco when he's streaming because of how awful Shaco is. As for Kass, he built it because of the zhonya's, and he wanted to see if he could kill him with a 4 item spike. Let's not pretend that the LDR did absolutely nothing for him. He wouldn't have even gotten close to killing Kassadin without it. Btw, he got ONE IE crit on that Kassadin, meaning a Kassadin with Zhonyas and GLP needs to be killed by a 4 item Shaco with LDR AND one IE crit.

I hadn't seen this change before, that is actually ridiculous xD They want you to build an armor pen build, with jungle item + duskblade that does like 650 damage against someone under half hp. I guarantee you that with those numbers Shaco is broken next patch.

https://i.gyazo.com/c77b2d5e56ea7e85cd368f409a13442d.png

https://i.gyazo.com/5d23aaf8145730e6664e9b077d222f2f.png

https://i.gyazo.com/0501d00077a76501ea96f6141e793558.png

Your champion is borderline broken, be happy he is being fine tuned towards what you want and not getting kneecapped.

Does that site show what Shaco is building? Because I can 100% guarantee you he's still building brusier. You're just dropping information without context at this point. In fact to prove you wrong I looked at all the Shaco "masters" and all of them are building bruiser, though one when he went top lane build AD, probably because he could get away with it and didn't have to snowball due to being in lane. One other person build AD ONE OR TWO times, the rest it was bruiser. Likely games where they'd already snowballed because they all build trinity force first, which is an item they use before going into the bruiser builds. One of them has been playing him AP, but other than that, it's all bruiser.

As for the change, honestly this change while good in a way will also be bad because AD Shaco will now be able to be fully itemized against due to his E dealing physical damage, and AP Shaco will lose out on some AP items because his E no longer will proc spell effects(not any big ones but some people like to build things like Ludens from time to time). AP will still likely be better than AD just because of how now it will be the one that's hard to be itemized against instead of AD Shaco. There's no nerfs to bruiser Shaco though so people will likely STILL be building him bruiser.

nm1010Jun 28, 20171 votes

First things first, press the fucking enter key every few lines.

He sold his shiv for IE because he is trying to make Shaco work with 3 items

Maybe sell the random asf duskblade?

How is Shaco supposed to be any better than any other jungler to actually MAKE IT to 4 items?

Idk ask all the people who have made him the 3rd best jungler this patch.

As for the critting, your backstab is an automatic crit.

You are not the first person to tell me this, do Shaco players honestly not know that your back stab does significantly reduced damage compared to a normal crit?

so why would you need to auto 2-4 times afterwards

2 autos takes like a quarter of a second with tiamat reset, that is a stupid low kill time. Even with 4 aa's it goes up to like 1.25 seconds.

but now you can't one shot without your clone AND 4 items on an ADC with ninja tabi and a black cleaver

I'm sorry you have counterplay (Building tanky)? One shotting an adc from stealth sounds like such a better way to do things.

So tell me, aside from the bruiser build which is the only OP Shaco build as of writing this

Where the fuck did you get that idea?

https://i.gyazo.com/e9f63b2017f311f0a611a0224030b2cc.png

Are you calling that a bruiser build?

https://i.gyazo.com/c41b6c40ad5be691cc57c9639448100e.png

These are closer, but still calling them a brusier build is a bit extreme. Especially since the ravenous builds have a higher winrate.

They took an entire ability's worth of damage off of Shaco

And he still manages to be the 3rd best jungler? Sounds like a pretty fundamentally broken champion lol.

He's basically a crit Soraka

Because Soraka has mobility and stealth to go with an invincibility mechanic.

The only GOOD way to build Shaco atm is bruiser or AP

Winrate stats heavily disagree with you.

explain to me how you know so much more than a Shaco main who was demoted to D1 because of how bad Shaco is right now

I've played with pros, streamers, and many other people at the top of the ladder. That guy got demoted because he is a delusional tool. Not because of the status of shaco.

he built it because of the zhonya's

LDR is barely worth it on a pure physical damage champion against zhonya's, I had a thread recently where I called out pro players for the awful practice of buying last whisper when it is inefficient with all the math if you would like to go look it up.

He wouldn't have even gotten close to killing Kassadin without it

You gained like 40 extra damage on the crit, lets say it was increased by the full 20% on LDR (it wasn't) for ~70 extra damage on the whole crit so in total giving you 470 on my basic calculations. Statikk would've added 300 damage for the crit after mr, making the total damage (with the 50 ad on LDR or the 20% increased damage factored out) 605.3.

That's a 130 damage difference plus the higher dps from statikk's attack speed and crit... which is just 170 dps more than the LDR with 20% bonus damage in effect, 130 more with the pen factored in, so I can confidently say LDR is always the wrong item in that scenario.

Does that site show what Shaco is building?

Yes I showed you some of the pictures above, here's another

https://i.gyazo.com/56d28269506b4c1685e8540ea47015c3.png

Because I can 100% guarantee you he's still building brusier.

Whelp you were 100% wrong

Shaco "masters" and all of them are building bruiser

I'd love a link that would overshadow the thousands of games of information I have shared above. Here's some more in fact

https://i.gyazo.com/9ec50d2687c940cdddfd220aaa346c45.png

SOOOOOOO MUCH BRUISER

Edit: Maybe you should look at what your shaco guy is building as of yesterday

https://i.gyazo.com/ef8e79647f6fbcafa830d9415ed6c2e6.png

Idk how long it took him with that "try shit until it works" approach, but he finally figured out a half decent build.

VoraciousXJun 28, 20171 votes

{quoted}

First things first, press the fucking enter key every few lines.

Maybe sell the random asf duskblade?

Idk ask all the people who have made him the 3rd best jungler this patch.

You are not the first person to tell me this, do Shaco players honestly not know that your back stab does significantly reduced damage compared to a normal crit?

2 autos takes like a quarter of a second with tiamat reset, that is a stupid low kill time. Even with 4 aa's it goes up to like 1.25 seconds.

I'm sorry you have counterplay (Building tanky)? One shotting an adc from stealth sounds like such a better way to do things.

Where the fuck did you get that idea?

https://i.gyazo.com/e9f63b2017f311f0a611a0224030b2cc.png

Are you calling that a bruiser build?

https://i.gyazo.com/c41b6c40ad5be691cc57c9639448100e.png

These are closer, but still calling them a brusier build is a bit extreme. Especially since the ravenous builds have a higher winrate.

And he still manages to be the 3rd best jungler? Sounds like a pretty fundamentally broken champion lol.

Because Soraka has mobility and stealth to go with an invincibility mechanic.

Winrate stats heavily disagree with you.

I've played with pros, streamers, and many other people at the top of the ladder. That guy got demoted because he is a delusional tool. Not because of the status of shaco.

LDR is barely worth it on a pure physical damage champion against zhonya's, I had a thread recently where I called out pro players for the awful practice of buying last whisper when it is inefficient with all the math if you would like to go look it up.

You gained like 40 extra damage on the crit, lets say it was increased by the full 20% on LDR (it wasn't) for ~70 extra damage on the whole crit so in total giving you 470 on my basic calculations. Statikk would've added 300 damage for the crit after mr, making the total damage (with the 50 ad on LDR or the 20% increased damage factored out) 605.3.

That's a 130 damage difference plus the higher dps from statikk's attack speed and crit... which is just 170 dps more than the LDR with 20% bonus damage in effect, 130 more with the pen factored in, so I can confidently say LDR is always the wrong item in that scenario.

Yes I showed you some of the pictures above, here's another

https://i.gyazo.com/56d28269506b4c1685e8540ea47015c3.png

Whelp you were 100% wrong

I'd love a link that would overshadow the thousands of games of information I have shared above. Here's some more in fact

https://i.gyazo.com/9ec50d2687c940cdddfd220aaa346c45.png

SOOOOOOO MUCH BRUISER

First you're using Champion.GG, a site which is mentioned by Riot themselves that it is WAY off base with their stats, and I'm using op.GG, a site that they have mentioned is much closer to their actual stats. Second, YES, I would say 700 extra health and some resists IS a bruiser build. Do you know what bruisers build? They build hexdrinker and titanic hydra, as well as other defensive types of items. Third, of the information you gave me, it'd suggest that AD Shaco is somewhere along a 50% win rate since the limited information you gave me was 3 wins 3 losses, but let's look at ACTUAL Shaco players and what they're building.

These are the top listed Shacos and their most recent Shaco games btw. Notice a pattern? 3 damage items into tanky(Or just starting straight off tanky on some). That's what you call a bruiser: http://i67.tinypic.com/b8ls34.png

As for the LDR argument, Chinese Jester got about 79 extra damage off JUST LDR(without the crit). I calculated it by he got 16 damage from the LW passive, and 13 from the giant slayer passive because Kassadin had around 180 more health than him which is close to 4% at the very least with 344 AD(with the crit that alone would be 72 damage), add the 50 damage on top of that and you get 79 damage(197 with a crit). SHIV would have done around 82 damage without a crit and 205 with a crit(after MR), but take out the 50 AD from LDR and that's 155 WITH a crit and 32 without. LDR does more.

As for the Shaco crit thing, yeah, I know he does less damage with his passive, that's why the only way he actually KILLED Kassadin with 4 items is because he crit ONE TIME with IE. The other times his passive procced. Shaco used his ult, his passive(twice because of ult), got a crit(20% chance), and then auto'd even more to kill a Kassadin with 2 items. Tell me how he's oh so powerful when it takes everything in his power including luck to kill someone when the moment he appears out of stealth he can be popped even more easily, ESPECIALLY late game without building tanky.

As for Chinese Jester, mind you, Riot has actually ASKED HIM for his insight into Shaco(as you can hear in the video), so if you know so much more about him, why aren't they asking you?

Anyways, this will be my last reply, it's too much work replying to you. Point is, Shaco is bad right now, UNLESS you build him bruiser. Some might get away with building more damage, but they're still gonna be building him tankier, and you can do better with many other champions than Shaco if you build him full damage. Seeing Chinese Jester play, he's actually really good, and I'm sure miles better than you, and the only way he's playing him right now is by rushing a GA.

The reason people are building AD COULD BE because of this btw: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGhRkwUQSX4 So if they're building AD they're likely basically playing like a Shyvana where they just mostly counterjungle without dealing with fights much unless he's ahead of the enemy.

nm1010Jun 28, 20171 votes

First you're using Champion.GG, a site which is mentioned by Riot themselves that it is WAY off base with their stats

1 out of 5 sources was champion.gg... You are just off to a lovely start aren't you?

I would say 700 extra health and some resists IS a bruiser build.

Zed best full build

https://i.gyazo.com/596ae8f8a44c72aa53c383f0f599822a.png

Kha'Zix best full build

https://i.gyazo.com/3a5b70a2045e3d0aa3644ac7c1f42c55.png

Guess we should just call them bruisers and get rid of AD assassins since they build the same as shaco (400 hp BC vs 450 TH). Also ignoring the fact of course you dismissed 4/5 of my sources with ~2700 games of evidence. This also included Korean challenger Shaco players.

it'd suggest that AD Shaco is somewhere along a 50% win rate since the limited information you gave me was 3 wins 3 losses

Again purposely ignores this picture that shows AD crit build with a 52.5% winrate in Diamond+

https://i.gyazo.com/c41b6c40ad5be691cc57c9639448100e.png

These are the top listed Shacos and their most recent Shaco games btw.

I can say a lot of shit about these op.gg's and why they are... unreliable... at best. But I will just stick to the fact that there are only 2 items built in ranked games that differ from the AD crit build. Both of which were poor games for shaco so he built tank to stay relevant to the team, not because it was his standard build path.

As for the LDR argument, Chinese Jester got about 79 extra damage off JUST LDR(without the crit). I calculated it by he got 16 damage from the LW passive, and 13 from the giant slayer passive because Kassadin had around 180 more health than him which is close to 4% at the very least with 344 AD(with the crit that alone would be 72 damage), add the 50 damage on top of that and you get 79 damage(197 with a crit).

I'm going to do all of this for you since you are incapable, but first

"SHIV would have done around 82 damage without a crit and 205 with a crit(after MR), but take out the 50 AD from LDR and that's 155 WITH a crit and 32 without. LDR does more."

Did you actually just say the 50 AD affected the shiv proc? Jesus, well lets start the math shall we?

I'm not going to go line by line since frankly I don't think you can follow, but some key things I'll point out are shiv proc crit is 400 damage premitigation with IE @ lvl 18 which you clearly didn't know. And you may have forgot to not apply LDR to base armor (since it applies to bonus armor ONLY), idk though you kind of rambled in that section.

https://i.gyazo.com/5d5e4b0a7f8a7854bb62e0f0307a07f3.png

Shiv is 177 higher burst damage with ~180 higher DPS with formal damage calculations. LDR is always a worse option, let me know if you want to argue that point anymore.

Tell me how he's oh so powerful when it takes everything in his power including luck to kill someone

Ask the people who abuse him as the 3rd highest winrate jungler. In my opinion as a very big number crunching guy is that shaco should get another crit item for 80% crit and 1-2 shot people, ya'll Shaco players don't seem to like that idea though. Next patch armor pen will be broken anyway so just go with that.

As for Chinese Jester, mind you, Riot has actually ASKED HIM for his insight into Shaco

I think we found the problem... Just kidding xD I watched a handful of his videos, the guy seems to be fairly good at Shaco. He just needs to ask someone for a build since he clearly isn't strong in the math side of things.

why aren't they asking you?

Because I play like 200 games a season, but them asking me doesn't really matter since you know... Math kind of stays the same no matter how many times you do it.