The context for the Shen nerfs does NOT make sense.

Melledoneus··103 votes·4,992 views

Shen’s global presence should come at a tradeoff: when he teleports to defend his allies, he’s sacrificing his own success. If his presence doesn’t turn the tide of a fight, Shen should return to lane at a disadvantage - after all, his opponent was collecting uncontested gold and experience while Shen was elsewhere. At present, however, it’s almost impossible to put Shen on the back foot due to how much dueling strength is baked into his kit. Shen will still be able to out-trade his opponents if he can purchase the damage to do so, but will no longer be as successful without offensive items.

Ok, let's break this down.

Shen’s global presence should come at a tradeoff: when he teleports to defend his allies, he’s sacrificing his own success. If his presence doesn’t turn the tide of a fight, Shen should return to lane at a disadvantage - after all, his opponent was collecting uncontested gold and experience while Shen was elsewhere.

This part is fine. All Shen players know that, but you know some of us take TP to return to lane to lessen that disadvantage after a successful gank. Also, you're acting like kills and assists don't mean shit compared to top lane farm, so... there's that.

At present, however, it’s almost impossible to put Shen on the back foot due to how much dueling strength is baked into his kit.

47.99% winrate, folks. Has a leash to his only damage ability that cannot be hidden. Relies on positioning and gets shit on by poke. Literally cannot hard counter anybody with a brain. Seems legit.

Shen will still be able to out-trade his opponents if he can purchase the damage to do so, but will no longer be as successful without offensive items.

be able to out-trade his opponents if he can purchase the damage to do so

if he can purchase the damage to do so

WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAT?!?

Riot, did you copy this off some old Irelia nerfs patch or something? Because I don't remember building damage that early on in the game as Shen. #BECAUSE HE'S A TANK.

but will no longer be as successful without offensive items.

Riot, I don't know what the hell you think Shen players are building, but I'm sure it's not offensive items. item 3748 is an optional mid-late game purchase at best. item 3025 is wasted. item 3022 is built more on Yasuo than Shen. Look up Shen builds and tell me how many offensive items they are buying.

So let me get this straight: You're nerfing Shen because you want him to build offensive items instead of tank to be relevant. AT ALL.

#Why?!?

This is literally the stupidest reason to nerf a tank. Especially one with sub-par tank stats and literally the only thing setting him aside is the ability for him to duel until the enemy builds MR or lifesteal. So I do not understand why you're forcing a tank to build 'offensive items' to do anything in lane. You already made him hard to play against competent opponents, not to mention you're nerfing his shield, so that's another thing that doesn't fit the reason for these nerfs.

Riot. Can we get a real reason instead of some cookie cutter bullshit? I am not convinced.

165 Comments

LadyRenly48 votes

"Shen’s global presence should come at a tradeoff:"

yeah..its called auto losing top tower

Hyperiön20 votes

Ults bot, Then teleports back top.

Melledoneus23 votes

Easier said than done, my friend.

dunkeroni4 votes

Actually he pressed over 30 buttons to type out that sentence, but it only takes 2 to ult bot and tele top.

Melledoneus3 votes

You forget about the hundreds of time I click.

Bladerunner777710 votes

Then gets killed by the enemy who actually got a combat powerspike at level 6*

Phil Fly8 votes

not to mention it's an ULTIMATE, and most other ultimates don't seem to come with any "tradeoff".

And A Real Hiero4 votes

How about a 3 minute cooldown on level one, succeed or suck.

Rito Gums22 votes

Yea the most nerfs are to his Q like literally it is becoming garbage after update

Ralanr18 votes

"If he builds the damage"

Because that is exactly what I want as a tank, damage.

Riot you gave Shen %health damage so he could hurt without the need to build damage. You made it so now he has to interact with his opponent because he can't ignore harass.

And the usual drawback to a failed fight with his ult is him dying. Sure death in LCS doesn't happen often, but this is stupid.

The most frustrating thing is that we know you will not revert these nerfs after worlds. So Shen is going to be in this state for better or worse until you decide to help him out again.

We get it. Shen's ult is great for worlds! You know what'd be nice though? Buffing other tanks so that maybe the pros will have more of a choice when picking tanks.

Granted I'm ranting and not really the best at balance, but come on Riot.

Lohenngramm16 votes

Uh, I get item 3748 on Shen first item almost all the time. I'm actually really surprised most people here seem to not do it. Getting it early means you'll farm easier and hit harder, since the enemy laner won't have their defensive stats yet. Shen's renewable shield let's him tank quite a lot of damage, which means you can postpone your own defensive stats till your second item. Finally, the auto-attack reset it gives is amazing on Shen. With it you can get off two Q procs in the space of a second as well as farm and deal increased damage. Honestly I can't think of a single reason to postpone buying it, unless you're getting so thoroughly crushed by your enemy laner that you need additional tank stats just to survive. Even that seems rare if you play properly though, I've 1v1'd Darius's in lane and won with just a item 3748.

EROTIC RAID BOSS10 votes

cus you can get sunfire cloak and it also adds some damage and gives you pretty good wave clear, and it's more tank oriented

Melledoneus4 votes

Usually I build tank to make up for Shen's lower than usual stats, because a Fiora with Phage has more HP and than a Shen with Sunfire Cape.

WoonStruck12 votes

So you think him out-dueling champions while building full tank is fair?

Cutting his offensive power is not uncalled for at all. If you want damage, build it. Most other tanks/juggernauts/fighters have to build one or two offensive items to be relevant. Shen has no reason he should be allowed to be an exception.

Melledoneus20 votes

So why did they nerf his shield? Also, what's the point of Shen's Q if it doesn't deal meaningful damage? It's a purely offensive ability, and the only offensive ability in his kit. Shen doesn't have an ultimate for his own gain like almost every other top laner. The trade-off is he has one offensive ability to use, but it's stronger than usual. So why would you nerf it? What's its purpose now? Why is it perfectly fine for champions like Volibear to build full tank and get to nuke carries, then? Why do tanks like Nautilus, Zac, and Sejuani get strong damage AND CC, but Shen can't even get rewarded that hard for risking his whole laning phase for a single trade?

WoonStruck8 votes

Volibear has almost no utility to speak of, meanwhile Shen's entire kit adds utility in some way.

Volibear has absolutely no influence on the game outside of strictly melee interactions, all of which are focused around doing one thing. His only way to enable his melee kit is a MS buff that isn't even as powerful as other champions that have an easier time, like Hecarim, Skarner, etc.

Volibear is one of the most predictable champions in League, allowing you to easily kite/peel him with your team.

Melledoneus8 votes
  1. Volibear has more combat utility than Shen.
  2. Volibear can easily catch out a carry while charging through their team.
  3. Volibear is predictable, but inevitable.
ProfDrDeath10 votes
  1. F----ing what?

Volibear has a flip and a slow as CC utilty. As defensive utility, he has his passive. As personal offensive utility, a speed boost.

Shen has his dash/taunt (beating Voli with this alone) as a combined offensive/CC utility, his passive as defensive utility (which can easily do more than Voli's passive), his anti-auto-attack zone as team-wide defensive utility and his ult shield and teleport.

Melledoneus4 votes

{quoted}

  1. F----ing what?

Volibear has a flip and a slow as CC utilty. As defensive utility, he has his passive. As personal offensive utility, a speed boost.

Let's list the self-utilities.

  1. MS boost.
  2. Extra MS boost toward champions.
  3. Empowered auto attack into knock up and displacement.
  4. AoE slow and fear.
  5. Powerful auto-proc regeneration passive.

Now let's list Shen's.

  1. Slight slow when opponent walks away after being hit with Q.
  2. Dash into taunt.
  3. AoE dodge zone for 1.5 seconds.
  4. Passive shield that relies on ability activation.

Well whaddya know.

Hyperiön9 votes

You must be high or something. Voli Has a flip, and slow, thats it.

Movement speed isnt utility, it only affects him. Fear, only works on minions, Passive, again not utility, it affects no one.

Utility is something that benefits the entire team, not just him self. Comparing Voli and Shen is like comparing Ashe vs Varus.

exiledFromBadmen3 votes

Volibear is a Juggernaut. Shen is a Warden.

And A Real Hiero7 votes

Volibear is a Juggernaut. Shen is a Ward.

Ralanr4 votes

They said that he would out trade them if he bought the items to do so.

Meaning if he bought damage items he would outrade people. Which is a bit ridiculous because Shen doesn't rush dueling items in lane.

So without the damage items, he's trading evenly. Which let's be honest, this was always something Shen was known for. Being able to sponge his lane in duels. Hell that's what a lot of tanks want to do because they can't push towers that well.

The nerfs do not explain why Riot is kicking Jungle Shen in the balls though.

Melledoneus4 votes

They reverted the jungle nerfs, but gutted his passive and Q.

Ralanr2 votes

Oh. I guess I didn't notice that.

Off Meta Evan9 votes

honestly his dueling power isn't even that amazing against champs that aren't immobile tanks. like he's not even that busted. idk why rito wants to nerf him.

Swiftstrike49 votes

The Shen nerfs are primarily for higher levels of play. He is really a strong champion in upper Elo, even though he is pretty weak in lower Elo.

The pros really know how to capitalize on Shen's global ultimate for an engage due to their skill and coordination. The average player cannot. I think Shen will be continued to be nerfed, just like Azir, until he has a lower win rate in higher Elo or he is not a first pick int he pro scene.

I use to play shen prerework, but I find his current kit pretty boring, only remphasizing the importance of his taunt and ultimate. I think his Q and W are only good situationally and in early laning.

He is really hard to take down with his passive procing frequently and I think the nerfs are warranted to make it so he has a trade off in upper Elo.

Super safe top laners with global ultimates will continued to get nerfed. The same reasoning drove riot to nerf Gangplank.

If you ever want to figure out what champions the pros will play it a simple formula:

  • High mobility (lost of dash, speed boosts, escapes etc.)
  • Global ultimates
  • Good early scaling

That's it. That's why we see the same champions almost every match.

And A Real Hiero3 votes

By that logic though, LB Ekko Zed Fizz and Yasuo should get dumpstered too.

ModWulf Helhammer3 votes

Ekko is getting nerfed. The rest either aren't played in high elo or are played very little (and Yasuo already got his tank build nerfed)

Straley3 votes

-4 base AD. What a nerf.

hhaavviikk2 votes

oh yeah that ekko ''nerf'' -4 base damage.

GayFluffyUnicorn3 votes

LB/Zed already dumpstered.... Both Zed and LB in competitive are more troll picks than actual viable picks even before riot nerfed him into the gutter (say what u want but mains with 125+ games only maintaining a 51% winrate is pretty sad isn't it? When a riven with 54% gets buffed, yasuo no meaningful nerfs also around 54% as well as many other champs).

BurningDolphins 8 votes

Yeah it's so disappointing because Riot already owns up to messing up his kit regarding its connection to his theme but now they are taking away the fact that he was a tank? When I wanted to start playing tanky Champs Shen seemed so cool being a mobile ninja that saves his team because he's a tanky badass. Now he has to build AD to be good? That'll make him an entire new champ... I want to take the damage for my team, not just win top lane by building a trinity force like everyone else lol

The Candy Pirate8 votes

Riot is nerfing everyone that can beat ekko

Abyssphere4 votes

Makes sense given that you don't beat Ekko unless you're overpowered right now.

ThePartyLeader7 votes

So we are just ignoring the fact that a good Shen can use ult and still win his own lane against any non gnar meta top laner?

Ok I guess we can just ignore that and complain.

And A Real Hiero3 votes

There are more champs than just Shen who can do this.

ThePartyLeader2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Waddling Death,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=00F8T43B,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2016-09-07T20:43:22.496+0000)

There are more champs than just Shen who can do this.

Who can gank bottom lane without using tp? You mean gangplank or are you playing rek sai and tf top?

Melledoneus9 votes

Shen has to have TP and crush bot lane quick to avoid losing his tower.

Oh, and let me give you some "non-gnar meta" top laners who deny Shen a laning phase.

-Darius -Graves -Renekton -Ekko -Vladimir -Quinn -Illaoi -Basically anyone with range, poke, or is a lane bully. Or AP.

My Waifu Vanilla1 votes

I mean....Illaoi can't do much to Shen since she can't ult him due to his dodge zone completely negating her W.

Melledoneus2 votes

For 1.5 seconds. Even then she can just W a nearby minion. Or she can pull out his ghost and just W that.

My Waifu Vanilla2 votes

I am just saying that Shen on his own makes it near impossible for Illaoi to 2v1 anyone since he can either dodge her W (tentacles don't slam) or just CC her so she can't W at all.

Barefoot Bub1 votes

600 ranked games on shen this season, Illaoi destroys any shen at any point in the game. Also his dodge zone just applies to auto attacks.

My Waifu Vanilla2 votes

I have played the Illaoi side of the match up quite a good amount and his W straight up makes your W useless (tentacles NEED the W to connect for them to slam so dodge or simply any form of hard CC used on Illaoi during W will make W go on cd and the tentacles will not slam) and he can just E you so you never get a chance to W anyway.

notmarked6 votes

people aren't even defending the nerfs

they are defending riot's dumbass decision making lmfao

Theorchero4 votes

You're acting like shen having 4% max health damage on multiple auto attacks starting level 1 is okay.

TequilaZombie6 votes

Why is it a problem. He's going to build full tank to capitalise on that?

Melledoneus12 votes

Please play the champion before making yourself look stupid like that.

Crazy Chatter1 votes

Shen is too strong tbh. A good shen that isn't trash knows how to win trades ezily. Also, you can outduel most champs, even yas, til lv 6. Not only that, he has uncontested global presence most of the time allowing him to turn a 4 v 4 into a 5 v 4. In your regular solo queue game, shen ain't much but if ur in a team, he is a monster. They want to make him not be able to get ahead in lane anymore because that gives him too much strength.

Melledoneus5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Crazy Chatter,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=00F8T43B,comment-id=0025,timestamp=2016-09-08T12:33:37.141+0000)

Shen is too strong tbh. A good shen that isn't trash knows how to win trades ezily. Also, you can outduel most champs, even yas, til lv 6.

If the Yasuo doesn't know how to press E, sure. Other than that, calling BS on this one based off experience.

Not only that, he has uncontested global presence most of the time allowing him to turn a 4 v 4 into a 5 v 4. In your regular solo queue game, shen ain't much but if ur in a team, he is a monster. They want to make him not be able to get ahead in lane anymore because that gives him too much strength.

Shen already has a relatively weak laning phase, though. Just because good Shen players can survive it and/or outwit their opponents to beat them doesn't mean his laning phase is broken. I once had the displeasure of being forced to go Shen mid with smite. I would dash onto the enemy Lux in the beginning and hit her with all three of my empowered auto attacks, then watched as she simply pressed Q, auto attacked, and automatically won the trade three times over.

That's right. A mage with doran's ring beat me with her CC spell and an auto attack against a full rotation of spells when I had rushed MR. Now, I know Shen doesn't belong mid, but I'm trying to give you an idea of how bad Shen's damage can be even with his greatest strengths.

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