TSM is only playing the Play-In Stage

GhostOfTsushima·Apr 25, 2017·4 votes·3,506 views

So if they lose to IWC

LMAO

Basically TSM have to prove themselves in another obstacle before actually getting to play in the actual MSI Tournament with China and Korea

16 Comments

anonymous119Apr 25, 20174 votes

It's annoying on a principle level that they judged h2k's world performance to be that much more significant than clg's msi performance.

I like h2k a lot. I think prolly gives some of the best interviews of any coach, but let's be honest they had the easiest group draw and the easiest possible quarter final match up in possibly the history of worlds.

Clg took down skt/rng the best teams in the worlds for their finalist msi appearance with out a fluke group/match up. To look at last year and go "na sucks they have to play against IWC to even prove they're worth a spot" while eu gets a guaranteed slot just seems really shitty.

BigBellBruteApr 26, 20173 votes

{quoted}

It's annoying on a principle level that they judged h2k's world performance to be that much more significant than clg's msi performance.

I like h2k a lot. I think prolly gives some of the best interviews of any coach, but let's be honest they had the easiest group draw and the easiest possible quarter final match up in possibly the history of worlds.

Clg took down skt/rng the best teams in the worlds for their finalist msi appearance with out a fluke group/match up. To look at last year and go "na sucks they have to play against IWC to even prove they're worth a spot" while eu gets a guaranteed slot just seems really shitty.

Total crap to be honest.
G2 shouldn't benefit from the performance of Fnatic and Origen two worlds ago or from H2k getting a cushy draw. G2 themselves finished tied for last at worlds and got dumpstered at MSI. Why should they get any consideration? But on the same note, why should TSM benefit from CLG's performance at last year's MSI? They shouldn't. Handing out benefits to regions instead of the teams that actually earned them is moronic.

Ale non è maleApr 26, 20171 votes

{quoted}

It's annoying on a principle level that they judged h2k's world performance to be that much more significant than clg's msi performance.

I like h2k a lot. I think prolly gives some of the best interviews of any coach, but let's be honest they had the easiest group draw and the easiest possible quarter final match up in possibly the history of worlds.

Clg took down skt/rng the best teams in the worlds for their finalist msi appearance with out a fluke group/match up. To look at last year and go "na sucks they have to play against IWC to even prove they're worth a spot" while eu gets a guaranteed slot just seems really shitty.

CLG finished behind RNG in group stage and got lucky to avoid the winner of the tournament , SKT, because of a lucky conicidence in semifinals (they avoided SKT that was tied for 3rd in group stage standings because of their head to head vs FW) CLG was only the third best team in that competition, and got lucky to reach the finals...but people convieniently forgot that, am I right?

The truth is that it wasn't only H2k performance at Worlds vs CLG performance at MSI, it was that NA had 1 good tournament out of 4 considered when they finished ahead of EU/CN while finishing behind the other regions 3 times

What is shitty id the selective fanboyism of some people, with the rules in place (if they don't change it), only KR has their spot guaranteed for the next year

Guyy FieriApr 26, 20171 votes

{quoted}

It's annoying on a principle level that they judged h2k's world performance to be that much more significant than clg's msi performance.

I like h2k a lot. I think prolly gives some of the best interviews of any coach, but let's be honest they had the easiest group draw and the easiest possible quarter final match up in possibly the history of worlds.

Clg took down skt/rng the best teams in the worlds for their finalist msi appearance with out a fluke group/match up. To look at last year and go "na sucks they have to play against IWC to even prove they're worth a spot" while eu gets a guaranteed slot just seems really shitty.

They based it off more than just last season tho, as in the past two years EU also has had three semi finalists at worlds (more than every region but Korea) and had a better performance at MSI season 6 when FNC made semis while TSM missed the mark on even making it out of groups. Sure, they could've done t differently, but they didn't. But I mean let's be real, it'll be a good thing in the long run because it means more chances for TSM to play and prepare for the group stages, and, if they crap the bed and can't win over all the IWC then they didn't deserve to make groups anyway. It'll be fine

BoomerApr 30, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Gnarles Barkleyy,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=x90ZxwA6,comment-id=00000002,timestamp=2017-04-26T23:01:54.287+0000)

They based it off more than just last season tho, as in the past two years EU also has had three semi finalists at worlds (more than every region but Korea) and had a better performance at MSI season 6 when FNC made semis while TSM missed the mark on even making it out of groups. Sure, they could've done t differently, but they didn't. But I mean let's be real, it'll be a good thing in the long run because it means more chances for TSM to play and prepare for the group stages, and, if they crap the bed and can't win over all the IWC then they didn't deserve to make groups anyway. It'll be fine

I don't know exactly what criteria they used to decide seeds, but your information is slightly inaccurate.

TSM may not have even made it out of groups in the S6 MSI, however CLG went to the finals.

Guyy FieriApr 30, 20171 votes

I am fully aware that clg made finals, you think I was living under a rock?

And the criteria they used to determine was best overall performances on an international level. Korea, obviously, for winning the last four worlds titles plus 1 MSI title. China for winning MSI and having two times where they reaches the world finals. Europe for have 3 world semi finalists in the last two years. That is literally the criteria they used, but feel free to call my information innaccurate again, I'm sure you know more than I do...

StillnameApr 25, 20172 votes

The non-guaranteed slot system this year is just dumb. Riot needed to either decide that the wildcard regions had earned a second slot or they didn't.

If it is to be believed that 2 wildcard regions deserve to be in the tournament then out of the 4 teams in the play-in games one will be cheated out of going up against the other regions. This can be said regardless of the winner of the tournament because even though Korea almost always wins it is still fun to see the different regions top teams go up against each other.

If the wildcard regions aren't thought to be good enough then why bother giving them more than one potential slot?

Miror BApr 25, 20171 votes

I'd agree only if we didn't just see a wildcard team not only beat an EU team (the "top" EU seed nonetheless) but also an NA team in group stages. If we're looking at the NA region as a whole over the past 2 years, their success has more or less been on par with the average wildcard team at worlds despite having a far more massive budget for players (able to import more korean and EU players with some teams even having "sister teams"). Why should they suddenly be given special priorities despite having equal or arguably less success?

StillnameApr 25, 20171 votes

I think you are missing my point. The last paragraph in my statement was not a tldr. I will re-iterate it from scratch.

There is no reason to belive an LMS team shouldn't get to go to MSI. They got 3-4th place at it last year and recently won IEM Katowice. They may not win it but they deserve an auto-invite.

There is no reason to believe an NA LCS team shouldn't go to MSI. They got 2nd place at it last year. They may not win it but they deserve an auto-invite.

That just leaves it to the wildcard regions. How many teams from the wildcard region deserve to go? one? or two? If the answer is one then send one. If the answer is two then send two.

In the scenario that the play in games present if the answer is one then that is the best case scenario because one team will go and the other will get left behind, but if the answer is two then that means that 4 teams that deserve to go to the actual MSI tournament and play against the other top teams from other regions have to play for 3 spots.

Ale non è maleApr 26, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I think you are missing my point. The last paragraph in my statement was not a tldr. I will re-iterate it from scratch.

There is no reason to belive an LMS team shouldn't get to go to MSI. They got 3-4th place at it last year and recently won IEM Katowice. They may not win it but they deserve an auto-invite.

There is no reason to believe an NA LCS team shouldn't go to MSI. They got 2nd place at it last year. They may not win it but they deserve an auto-invite.

That just leaves it to the wildcard regions. How many teams from the wildcard region deserve to go? one? or two? If the answer is one then send one. If the answer is two then send two.

In the scenario that the play in games present if the answer is one then that is the best case scenario because one team will go and the other will get left behind, but if the answer is two then that means that 4 teams that deserve to go to the actual MSI tournament and play against the other top teams from other regions have to play for 3 spots.

The reality is that wildcard are improving, but no one exactly know the rate at which they are improving, including Riot, and no one knows if a wildcard team could replicate ANX success or that was only a fluke (group draw with NA/EU teams choking, specific pick exploited at those Worlds, etc...), also because until 2016 Worlds Wildcard weren't even deserving the spot they were receiving tbh (they were given spots as a gift to weaker region teams and hoping they would one day deserve it)

Given they will get one for sure, as they had one when they were even weaker, could they deserve more? No one knows, so let's give them a chance to prove them, win a Bo5 vs a major region and they deserve to get an extra spot (because, even with the new format only 1 spot is guaranteed to wildcards, you need two wildcards to be better than major regions team for a major region to be left out of MSI)

Then, how to decide who is at risk of losing their spot...welL, they explained it extensively why major region teams were placed in different tiers, and NA/LMS were the weakest performances in those two years considered. There's the breakdown when they explained the new format of how the results were considered, and it was estabilished that NA and LMS didn't deserve an auto-qualification to MSI group stage this year (just for the sake of argument, LMS placed the worst of any region at last Worlds. NA has had 1 good tournament in 2 years. Why one specific MSI result should be more important that overall performance in a longer span of time?) . Next year maybe will be EU and CN that will be forced to play in the play-in because they will perform bad and NA and LMS will be in group stage, but that will be the result of those teams performance, and that is true as Well for Wildcard performances

StillnameApr 26, 20171 votes

There is no reason for Riot to be more stingy about international tournaments then they already are.

No one has to miss out on the tournament. There are already only 2 tournaments per year where top teams from each region are invited. If a region misses MSI then that means they only play at worlds.

Between those two tournaments last year top teams from NA played top teams from EU in a total of 6 games. And out of those 6 games 4 of them were CLG vs G2. 6 games does not seem like the heated EU > NA, NA > EU rivalry that happens in twitch chat and on the forums and on reddit.

Ale non è maleApr 26, 20173 votes

{quoted}

There is no reason for Riot to be more stingy about international tournaments then they already are.

No one has to miss out on the tournament. There are already only 2 tournaments per year where top teams from each region are invited. If a region misses MSI then that means they only play at worlds.

DUDE, they just changed the formula to expand MSi and Worlds and to include all the Wildcard region that were excluded in. Just the tournament can't be long enough to have all 13 teams enter the main group stage (same for Worlds)

If at MSI a major region loses 2 Bo5 against Wildcards or 1 Wildcard + a region that has lost to Wildcards it is fair that it remains out of the final group stage

Guyy FieriApr 26, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I think you are missing my point. The last paragraph in my statement was not a tldr. I will re-iterate it from scratch.

There is no reason to belive an LMS team shouldn't get to go to MSI. They got 3-4th place at it last year and recently won IEM Katowice. They may not win it but they deserve an auto-invite.

There is no reason to believe an NA LCS team shouldn't go to MSI. They got 2nd place at it last year. They may not win it but they deserve an auto-invite.

That just leaves it to the wildcard regions. How many teams from the wildcard region deserve to go? one? or two? If the answer is one then send one. If the answer is two then send two.

In the scenario that the play in games present if the answer is one then that is the best case scenario because one team will go and the other will get left behind, but if the answer is two then that means that 4 teams that deserve to go to the actual MSI tournament and play against the other top teams from other regions have to play for 3 spots.

Using IEM katowice to judge region strength is silly...no NA teams were there and none of the Chinese or Korean teams that matter were there...not that it's not a great accomplishment for the FW or the LMS but you can't say that the LMS is strong because they won IEM Katowice...hell TSM won that event in season 6, didn't mean anything then either.

ABlueQuakerApr 30, 20171 votes

The way I see it, it's unlikely that TSM won't make it through play-in and it also means they've had some warm-up games on-stage, on-location prior to going into bigger, harder matches. Not to mention they'll probably end up with somewhat of a home-ground advantage if they take out a BR team.

JRobin31Apr 30, 20171 votes

I agree. I think TSM will make through the Play In. IMO, TSM is looking stronger than they ever have.

But I also think that some of these "4th tier" teams are looking pretty strong.

Mathematically at least one of these "4th tier" teams is going to make it through Play In. So the question is: will TSM and Flash Wolves "hold the line" or not by securing those 1st and 2nd Play In places.