Anyone else want to see the coaches not involved during champ select?

Oakleaf Ranger·Jan 23, 2017·1 votes·1,604 views

Now that the pick/ban phase has gotten more dynamic and interesting, would anyone else like to have the coaches unable to speak with their team during this point? I want to see how well players can communicate to decide on their picks/bans and how they react to the enemy's picks/ban especially with each team only having 30 seconds each time. I view this as a decision making skill for players and not something the coaches should be involved in.

30 Comments

MadManApocalypseJan 23, 20174 votes

I mean you have a point, but then again... kind of the coaches job to go over plays with the players before the game.

Oakleaf RangerJan 23, 20171 votes

They can still talk and go over game plans before champ select starts. But after that it should be the players/team working together to decide what the best plan and how to play around the enemies bans/picks. Not the coaches, IMO.

Edit: did u see in some games though that the players didn't ban in time? that was pretty cool to see at least for me. Awesome seeing how they do under pressure and that was with them even having the coach helping there. I can just imagine how champ select would go without the coaches.

III BAKURYU III Jan 23, 20171 votes

Teams pay the coaches to do their job to the fullest of their abilities it would be a waste not to have the coaches helping the players during the pick ban phase. It's been going on in the LCK for years since 2013 with coaches helping the players out with pick ban and they've turned out pretty good. NA just started it and it's actually been helping the region produce and look good since, so I personally don't want the coaches to go away from the pick bans.
You watch solo Q streams and the pick bans are all over the place that's what the LCS would be just sporadic and all over the place but instead teams have coaches and their job is to look up pick bans, objectives, planning 24/7.

A coach can tell their players before game "ok GL and HF etc" and tells them about the game plan etc in the back but once on stage I'm pretty sure some if not all get goosebumps and are at least a little fearful before games and before the champion select, so anxiety kicks in but if a coach is on stage with them helping them with champion select it helps eliminate some of the anxiety and helps alleviate the pressure.
A coach can also joke with the players and that too helps. Think of as a teacher that is cool and jokes around in class and isn't just strict or 1 of the classmates so the passion goes into the school work from the students knowing that they can have fun instead of just performing.

Another thing is that with a coach helping with the pick ban and that team loses it's much easier for the bigwig that owns that team to fire and put all of the blame on the coach instead of their talent as it's easier to get another coach than it is to get a potential superstar. Example would be Locodoco from TSM.

Oakleaf RangerJan 23, 20171 votes

But that's what I want to see, can they overcome their nerves and fear? That's part of the fun for me. Can handle the pressure? Or will it affect them and cost the game. Very interesting mental factor for me. That definitely felt like it when some of the team's missed a ban. Can't handle the heat then get out of the kitchen.

III BAKURYU III Jan 23, 20171 votes

Well I mean you have 2011,12,13 and 14 seasons to watch if that's what you want.

Oakleaf RangerJan 23, 20171 votes

I didn't get into league until the middle of season 5. I had little interest in pro play until the 10 bans were added. Now it's not just ban/pick whatever is op. Drafting is honestly one of my favorite parts for me now but I feel like coaches kind of kill the joy for it me. Just little though since it's still very interesting to see it play out.

LongSh4dowsJan 23, 20171 votes

Why do you think the players aren't equally involved in picks and bans? If there was no discussion then they wouldn't be running out of time on the bans.

Oakleaf RangerJan 23, 20171 votes

That sounds like a cooperation issue. I see it as another way to separate and reward teams who synchronize from the disfunctional.

MadManApocalypseJan 23, 20173 votes

{quoted}

They can still talk and go over game plans before champ select starts. But after that it should be the players/team working together to decide what the best plan and how to play around the enemies bans/picks. Not the coaches, IMO.

Edit: did u see in some games though that the players didn't ban in time? that was pretty cool to see at least for me. Awesome seeing how they do under pressure and that was with them even having the coach helping there. I can just imagine how champ select would go without the coaches.

It's simple... if you face faker... ban everything he plays.

Wh1teWu1fJan 23, 20172 votes

This would be a step back imo. It would lead to players needing to divert their attention to studying comps rather than in-game decision making and mechanics. Coaches have such a good impact, why take it away just for enjoyment of watching players squirm? It's like removing a coach from any traditional sport, it just becomes more chaotic than it should be for a professional level.

Oakleaf RangerJan 23, 20171 votes

Well let me ask you this then. If coaches are allowed in champ select, then why not in game? Drafting and understanding comps is something that players should be able to do. A good way to display game knowledge/strategy before the game even starts.

TakitoJan 23, 20171 votes

Because a coach needs to watch the game from another room and study the strategy used by the ennemy team. He couldn't do that on stage so yeah...

Oakleaf RangerJan 24, 20171 votes

He can't use a headset or watch from another screen? I doubt he even has to be on stage for that either as well.

TakitoJan 24, 20171 votes

OK wait...

You just said if we allow the coach in the champ select, he should be able to be on stage during the game. I told you he can't because he needs to watch the game to see the ennemy strategy and everything (and thus adjust his choice and prepare his team for game 2).

Now you're telling me he should be able to watch the game on another screen WHILE ON STAGE?

Are you fucking dumb?

I mean that without offense, but someone watching the game and communicating with a team would just destroy the game...? 'There is a ward there, careful the jungler is coming top, still X sec on X ult'

Oakleaf RangerJan 24, 20171 votes

Are you saying the person whose only ability to affect the game through communication can't take notes and prepare for the next game. From either on or off the stage? By that logic though oh hey they left X champion up, pick it or take Y which even better. Because that basically what champ select is when coaches are allowed on it. I dislike it because coaches aren't the ones in the game that actually playing, the players are. The game doesn't start at the fountain. It starts when the champ select pops up. At this point outside source of information should be cut off with only their team to rely for decisions. I'm telling you that by letting coaches in on champ select it creates a effect similar to what would happen if coaches were allowed to communicate in game.

Edit: allow me to clarify something. I believe a coaches job should be to prepare a team as much as possible leading up to a game and providing feedback after. I view drafting a comps as a responsibility/skill for the players not coaches. Otherwise why is the the time limit to ban/pick so short. Clearly it isn't enough time since some teams weren't able to chose a ban within the time frame. Wouldn't 1-2 minutes be more logical to provide coaches a much more reasonable time frame to help/tell their team what to pick or ban?

TakitoJan 24, 20171 votes

To be honest, i'm not even talking about your primary subject. I'm just commenting about what you said in the comment i replied to

''Well let me ask you this then. If coaches are allowed in champ select, then why not in game? ''

Because he needs to be away from the game to be able to watch the WHOLE game. Ennemy vision included. He couldn't do that on stage.

Oakleaf RangerJan 24, 20171 votes

... I said that because if having a coach in champ select creates a situation similar to having a coach in game. Your against that but okay with coaches in champ select. Basically I'm pointing out what I think is flawed logic. You understand that having another set of eyes in game is much better than watching the whole but being unable to communicate. Which ruin the game for the reason you gave for earlier. That's how it sort of feels for me when I see coaches allowed to be involved in champ select.

TakitoJan 24, 20171 votes

''You understand that having another set of eyes in game is much better than watching the whole but being unable to communicate.''

I'm literally doing my best to make you understand that i'm saying the complete opposite... You NEED someone watching the whole game while unable to communicate to prepare your team for round 2, while the players don't need someone else during the game, they already have their shotcaller and everything.

Champ select is a very different because it doesn't rely on your skills/shotcalling ability, it mostly relies on knowing your players well and having a good grasp on the current meta.

Oakleaf RangerJan 24, 20171 votes

They have shot callers but they don't have anyone who can just specifically watch the map (from one team's perspective) to blow the whistle on incoming ganks and picks. That would be considered very valuable info for teams. Even if they coach is doing this that doesn't mean there can't be someone else to prepare data from the game to be used. I would even say that drafting is a form of shot calling whether it's just one, multiple, or the whole team deciding on the picks and bans. Something. A process I think that should not involve the coaches.

Wh1teWu1fJan 24, 20171 votes

I would love to see coaches be able to coach live, but my assumption is that it's not allowed because the coach would probably have the job of keeping an eye on the minimap which would give players one less thing to worry about, even though it's an in-game skill that they 100% should have.

Studying an enemy team on the other hand... why should players need to worry about that? This isn't about counterpicks, they understand that, what's more often talked about is what should be picked up first to make sure you put an opposing player onto an uncomfortable pick or put a nervous player on your own team onto a comfort pick. OR to force the enemies hand into picking something otherwise leaving it up for your team to pick next rotation... All of this requires study of the opposing team though (well most of it), which I don't see why players should have to do that.

Oakleaf RangerJan 24, 20171 votes

That's the kind of information that coaches should relaying to their team before champ select starts though. They don't have study it themselves just be relayed the information before it starts (or just most important information). Is it unreasonable to want to see how teams handle that information to deciding what to pick and ban when a under time limit (30 seconds)? How is that not a skill/talent not worth showcasing? Will teams designate a ban/pick caller? Voting system? Fall apart and argue?

Wh1teWu1fJan 24, 20171 votes

It isn't a skill worth showcasing. What it feels like you're asking for is a showcase in communication skills between teammates, when that's literally what they do in the game already. It's not much different and just creates a hassle for the team to have a coach tell them what to do prior and them having to remember it.

Oh, you didn't remember what your coach told you to pick/ban? Well, I guess you just handed them a power pick that gives them an edge... because your short term memory isn't good... what kind of "showcase" is that?

Oakleaf RangerJan 24, 20171 votes

Yah u nailed on the head for what I'm basically asking. Players already know what are power picks since you know they place the game at the highest level. I want to see how well they weight power picks over waiting. What they deem necessary to ban or pick when. As a team (without the coach). I feel that's something worth showcasing. I consider teams that work well together wont have an issue but the ones who don't, well time to see if their individual skill and mechanics can overcome their weak team work.

MrHaZeYoJan 23, 20171 votes

Na we got Reapered,

Kings AvatarJan 24, 20171 votes

go watch season 3, no coaches on stage, cloud9 had by far the best pick and ban phases because lemeon was the only person at the time with a plan. always had his notebook.

Oakleaf RangerJan 24, 20171 votes

Will take a peak

Snowman ArcJan 24, 20171 votes

Then what's the point of having a coach?

Oakleaf RangerJan 24, 20171 votes

Everything before the game? Scrims, going over replays, smoothing out weaknesses in their playstyle, exploiting the weakness of the other team, getting the team to work better together? I imagine there is way more as well.

Jenks3Jan 24, 20171 votes

Eh, it's pretty necessary from an international stage perspective. If the Koreans do it, but NA and EU don't, we are at a HUGE disadvantage. Korean teams had coaches back when the LCK first started, and NA didn't really have them until 2 seasons ago. Since our adoption of more traditional coaching methods, we have begun to play catchup.

I mean look at us in worlds. Sure NA fell flat on its face getting out of pools, but we took games off China and Korea in the pools. That much more than we could have said 3 years ago.

Oakleaf RangerJan 24, 20171 votes

Oh shit I thought their guidelines for this. We're teams in NA not allowed to have coaches in champ select before or was it cause they just didn't do it for whatever reason?