Welp, I guess Xpecial can join the wash up Delta Fox team now

GhostOfTsushima·Aug 14, 2017·2 votes·992 views

GGWP

Uninstalling from LCS

20 Comments

Miror BAug 14, 20171 votes

Kinda sucks for him if you think about it, was replaced on TL by Matt (a guy who I perennially roast on here like a christmas turkey), was replaced on dignitas by two guys who didn't even play in the LCS this year, and is realistically going to end up on an academy team due to the way the LCS is going to work next year.

ChompyWulfAug 14, 20171 votes

I haven't seen any news on P1s site or others, is Xpecial cut for good or retiring? As far as I can tell, his contract is up but that doesn't necessarily mean he won't be kept.

Miror BAug 14, 20171 votes

From what I can understand he still wants to play but has received no offers or anything, putting him in what I like to call "LCS-Limbo".

ChompyWulfAug 14, 20171 votes

Well...the Split isn't even over yet? It's not like this is after Worlds and teams have been making moves. It's possible he may stay on P1 or find a new home. Very early to dismiss him already.

III BAKURYU III Aug 14, 20171 votes

Honestly, the sad thing about this is that his teammates most likely were on their phones and looking at the t.v screen for small glimpses like TSM did to Dyrus at Worlds 2015 when he poured his heart out and they were like "sad..........text, text, text" .

It's really awkward watching someone cry, but I personally LOVE it in "sports" or in life, it makes us all feel less "super-human" for a moment and take a few steps back at just being human.

Xpecial while he's not the best support in League he's not the worst by any measure. P1 SUCKED without him, plain and simple. If I was P1 I would keep him, cause showing "true" emotion means he still wants to play and still can at a high level, as well as wishing his teammates the best in the future, after he/his teammates have all the reason to hate each other on how the split ended, Promotion tournament, not going to Worlds etc.
I would honestly, tell the team and keep the same players together and work really hard next year, but with the 10-13K investment with franchising the brand/ORG/team might not be around and that's sad.

Miror BAug 14, 20171 votes

See, I heavily disagree with you on that notion. Look at all that they've done, and it's kinda hard to justify keeping anyone aside from xpecial and mike. Zig was an average LCS toplaner in a dearthey spring split for them and got buried heavily when the toplaners started getting better. Ryu looks to have peaked and for someone who takes an import slot could very easily be replaced by a guy like selfie (who I'm personally under the assumption can and will be the 4th best mid in EU or NA should a team nab him). Arrow was great for one split, but can't really see him wanting to stay with how little they accomplished there. I'd keep Mike and bring up a secondary rookie alongside him to try and create a competition, aggressively pursue selfie when free agency opens, and also potentially go after Cop to be the coach (look at what he did with dignitas). With that foundation and not the current one, I can see them going places.

III BAKURYU III Aug 14, 20171 votes

I disagree, but with a prime example of Team Liquid with them bringing back the old roster that failed in 1 split 10th or so and bringing everyone back in another, just to fail again is very concerning with P1. I get that. Thing about Selfie, is that he's literally been in the CS NA/EU for like 3 years, there's a reason for that dude. Yeah, he's good, he has like the highest CS potential that I'v seen in my 5-6 years + posts a decent KDA, Kills etc but he's pretty much a quarter of what Jensen is currently. He doesn't win and if P1 doesn't win by any logic he's no better on easier teams in the challenger scene. I don't think Cop would leave a more solid team in DIG to coach P1, especially if P1 just got out of promotion. Pretty much everyone will be running away from P1/Org/coaches because of how they finished. Unless P1 pays well, I don't see big names coming in. I do agree, Ryu has peaked and honestly keeps getting worse as the splits add up, Arrow shouldn't have won MVP(D-lift should have-off topic tho). Zig is pretty much Lourlo. If P1 splits up the team, they would most likely be in the same boat as they are now, with at least this team they know each other.

ZIG - who's going to replace him in NA that isn't an import and can be actually be decent. Mike - Ok, Keep Ryu - Selfie Arrow - Same as Zig, who's a top tier ADC other than the same 3 players that have been in the scene for years and are the only top tier players in that position(D-lift/Sneaky/Turtle) Xpecial - Big? Hard?

Miror BAug 14, 20171 votes

Yeah, the thing you're kinda ignoring about selfie is that even though he's been in challenger for a while, he's been pretty dominant despite not getting any LCS offers. He was dominant in EU on (what I'm pretty sure was) Schalke, he was somewhat dominant in NA despite having bad talent around him (Quas showing that he'd be far better as a coach and tempo storm in general being a team that lacked quality talent outside of him). I sorta put 4th-best for a reason, as outside of the "big three" (Jensen/Bjerg/Froggen) who else is better? Huhi, the guy whose looked to be the weakest link on CLG until they chose to make jungle that? Pobelter, the guy whose been in the league for 3+ years and has been forced to rely massively on better talent around him just to do anything noteworthy? Not only can selfie dominate them if given the chance, but add in all of his experience and undervalued champion pool (guy can play practically everything) and it still shocks me that he's gone so long without any teams putting a priority on him.

While I do agree that Cop leaving dig doesn't make sense from a certain standpoint (leaving 4th place team to join 10th place), you kinda have to think that Dignitas doesn't look that appetizing right now. (Including summer because I don't see them making worlds) 3 consecutive splits in which this franchise has had middling success, a roster which could see literally all of its firepower ditch out (lod and shrimp are the only ones under contract after this split), and potentially better options out there. While P1 won't be his only possibility, you have to think that he could be saught after to build up a roster from scratch.

Oh, and I'm tossing my eggs in the "Solo or bust" boat for non-import toplaners who can be decent. Zig's track record on P1 has consisted of 5 weeks in which he looked like MVP material with the rest being non-memorable (those 5 weeks potentially having an asterisk beside them as he was playing kled, a character that teams had a hard time figuring out). Solo's shown he can have hard-carry games in challenger and while I don't expect him to be great, am kinda under the assumption that barring another korean import spree could slot in as the 5th-best NA top, better than zig.

Also Also, Hard was the old echo fox jungler (original roster being KFO, Hard, Froggen, Keith, Big with a coach who I fail to remember). Finding a replacement support and/or botlane shouldn't be hard with the amount of UFA's, as if they really wanted to they could just nab altec/adrian and use the free import slot to grab someone like smeb.

III BAKURYU III Aug 14, 20171 votes

Selfie " he's been pretty dominant despite not getting any LCS offers" Why is that tho, attitude possibly ?
I'm not saying everyone with an attitude won't be called for a team/job(Dardoch/Svenskeren/D-Lift etc) but there's a reason why.
Individually Yes, he's really good I would say top 4-5 in the league behind such players that you said but that's only half the cake tho. Froggen while he does help his team in some portions, he plays a similar style as Selfie for the most part and while he's good and A+ tier he hasn't had much success in the league. Jensen focused on himself for a better part of the first 5-6 weeks and C9 suffered because of it.
So Selfie will most likely be in the same situation, but on a worst team possibly than Jensen and he had a MVP season but C9 are in QT's with a much better roster than what Selfie could possibly get in the future, if he indeed gets an offer. If Selfie did join a team in NA, he would post great # but the team would most likely be 9th-8th in the standings, unless the team did in fact get top tier talent(pretty much LCK players only with 2 imported slots)

       Cop/DIG/P1

The Cop situation is interesting to say the least. He could build a team of zero ego players, "green" if you will and could guide them in his way of doing things(what coaches want to do in the first place). So that makes sense, but not if P1 gets top tier talent. The only way for the players to listen to cop is if the players were underachievers for the bulk of their careers( so no Smeb etc).

I think Heaven was Echo Fox's coach...... I think?? IDK

( off topic ) I personally think 2 things will happen next year and they're polar opposites

Many EU players will leave EU for NA with the franchising and overall better talent(for the most part) to better their skill. I'm still thinking Zven and Mithy will join NA but that's just a guess honestly.
Most of NA's imports and EU players(Ryu) will leave NA for EU for an "easier" road for their ultimate goal, to compete at Worlds.

Miror BAug 15, 20171 votes

I'm under the assumption that we could see another far bigger korean "exodus" happen with NA, as teams will be literally spending millions of dollars on rosters and investors will be bigger/better than in recent history. Guys like Smeb can and will be paid $1m per split by teams desperate to win worlds, and the concept of "fair player salaries" will go entirely out the window as teams do their best to divvy up the talent amongst themselves.

As far as an "NA exodus" goes, I'm under the opposite impression. For the first time in ages, we could legitimately see quality NA talent make their way to EU (dardoch being an interesting option as he'd be the 3rd best jungler there) and have an inverse of what we've seen over the past few years.

Oh, and Zven and mithy joining NA will be weird, as while Zven could/would be a good fit I highly doubt any NA teams will be willing to use an import slot on a support not named wolf or gorilla.

III BAKURYU III Aug 15, 20171 votes

That's what I was thinking as far as NA talent leaving for EU, NA is crowded...... very crowded at the moment and with franchising it will only get worse(if you're a low tier player or a player with baggage of sort).
With current contracts out of the window there could be some interesting signings in the near future from the LCK (Smeb/Marin/Kramer and I would go as far with Bang from SKT a possible import)

Another thing is the CS team under the professional teams, every NA LCS team will need a challenger team. So while P1 will most likely terminate some of their players, they will most likely either leave for EU or be a challenger player on such teams.

Miror BAug 15, 20171 votes

I really have to check, but I'm pretty sure I heard that rito is implementing an age-cap for academy teams (as to make it so that it's more of a "developmental league" and not "10 delta foxes". I also don't see Marin or Kramer leaving LCK, or bang unless SKT manages to do something bizarre and not make worlds/go 0-6 in groups. Huni is a guy who I could see make a return to NA though, as you have to think that he's run his course in korea and (while I doubt we'll see a reignover reunion anytime soon) would be much more valuable to a team like G2.

III BAKURYU III Aug 15, 20171 votes

I just think Bang has had enough hiding in the shadows of Faker, seen multiple times where he's the one that carried SKT during some games and just because his name isn't Faker he doesn't win the player of game award that LCK does. You can tell he's getting frustrated, if I can find the video of where he "throws" his mouse I will post it. It may be nothing but a niche of mine but let's not forget after 1-2 splits most of the SKT players tend to get tired of being B+ players behind Faker and do their own thing. Piglet/Impact/Marin/ Like I said tho, may be nothing but grabbing the wind/straws from me.

The age-cap situation is good and needed in my mind( +1 rito)

I just see Marin possibly leaving if the $ is good enough, he's done it before. With Kramer, he's been on multiple teams with decent success but nothing close to a top tier team, he stays on AFS I expect them to just be eliminated in the first round like the previous splits, that's if they make it to playoffs. He was on Flash Wolves and was instantly had a ticket punched for Worlds in the LMS.

Huni to G2 makes sense in a lot of ways because Expect is like a Huni 1/2 in which he tries to carry games/split-push but G2 just can't ever seem to get him on the right page for multiple splits now. Still regarded as the worst TP top i'v seen, either being super late or not showing up at all, but that can be called/communication disputes that I can't see/hear on G2.

ChompyWulfAug 15, 20171 votes

Going to interject here. While Pobelter had a pretty pedestrian start to this split, he has become a terror for IMT lately. While he hasn't been a constant top notch player in the same level as Bjerg or Jensen, he has been one of those next best guys in LCS that could very possibly expose selfie as great Challenger who is a bad Pro.

Miror BAug 15, 20171 votes

Pobelter might look decent, but his entire career is that of a 6th-place player being carried by top-3 players (doublelift/aphromoo while he was on CLG, huni/reignover last year, even dardoch if you count their 7th place spring). Put selfie in all the same scenarios pobelter was in, and not only would he be better (would be able to play more aggressive picks and potentially assassins) but would also do so in a way that wasn't bland.

ChompyWulfAug 15, 20172 votes

I'm seriously calling your game knowledge into question at this point. First, assassins haven't been relevant to the pro meta since Season 4. Second, bland play is some of the best pro play. When they can just farm and get advantages without flashy fights that is most ideal. Third, you list Dardoch as a better star than Pobelter. Dardoch has been officially exposed as a flash in the pan, a skilled player that looks great against bad teams but has completely wilted against top competitors and has been booted multiple times because his play is not good enough to match his ego and attitude. And while Pobelter has had some very good players around him, he has done well for himself and is far from a liability in the LCS, and in recent weeks has been looking to elbow in next to the likes of Bjerg and Jensen in his play. Meanwhile, selfie is a challenger who hasn't even yet been in the LCS and you think he would hands down beat a guy on the rise who has been in the pro scene? That's just straight crazy fan bias.

Miror BAug 15, 20171 votes

Going to just go ahead and list a number of assassins who were entirely valid to pick but rarely saw any use from pobelter (please feel free to chirp in if any of these aren't "meta enough")

-Leblanc -Talon (even with the tank meta he's still pretty good) -Ahri (saw him maybe play it once when the changes happened) -Ekko (saw a decent amount of use in LPL, but I'm pretty sure pob played it twice)

To answer your second point, bland play is only good if you can get some sort of advantage out of it. Faker gets tiny cs leads by forcing opponents to play into him/earn things, which he then snowballs via sidelanes. Bjerg does the same thing to a lesser extent, as does Jensen. If you look at Pobelter's laning and overall presence on teams, he feels more like a support main trying to make midlane work as there are few games if any in his entire career in which you can definitively say "hey, Pobelter 1v9'd this game".

Third, you kinda have to take context into it. In 2017 spring, Dardoch was without question a top-4 jungler whether anyone wants to admit it or not. About 90% of their wins were decided by him (with flame looking incredibly weak and cody/olleh getting used to the NA competitive environment). I gotta check, but I'm pretty sure Pobelter finished 9th in KDA in spring and had the third most deaths out of anyone. Far from what I'd consider "high-quality", even with all the stuff happening around him.

You're kinda ignoring my main point about pobelter, and I'm finding it a bit weird. In summer 2015 Pob joined CLG, went to worlds, and looked to be carried by the near-unstoppable botlane of DL/Aphro. In the entirety of 2016, Pob was on an IMT team featuring the best western top/jg duo and a servicable botlane (turtle being okay back then), not only didn't make it to worlds but suffered massive upsets in both spring and summer playoffs. In summer of this year, IMT is finishing first on the back of a dominant flame, top-2 botlane, and a coaching staff that might be the best we've seen this year. Looking at all of these scenarios, and it's kinda hard not to argue that selfie could do better, as if you think about it all of those teams could've done so much more if they had an extra carry coming from mid.

ChompyWulfAug 15, 20171 votes

First things first about assassins. Of the four you named, one was near permabanned this last split, Ahri has seen marginal use at best by anyone, nobody bothers with Talon and pros rarely play Ekko ever as full burst Assassin. Why? Utility matters far more with the meta. Talon brings no synergy at all. Ahri has a bit of CC but not as much AoE and CC as LB, and as I said, almost no pros do Ekko as assassin, preferring a top fighter build for him if anything.

Second, I can smash your claims of boring play and calling Pobelter weak with one point, 8 time Player of the Game, tied with Jensen and Darshan behind Bjerg at 12. His past performances and teams are irrelevant when you see how he has grown and improved to this point. Meanwhile, Selfie couldn't even carry his team into the Promo tourney and believe he will crush the LCS? Yes, I am ignoring much of what you are saying because it is irrelevant.

We'll see who's right in Spring, if Selfie can get game time in for P1 over Ryu.

Miror BAug 15, 20172 votes

Just going to toss this out there: Player of the game and actual rito awards don't actually matter. I wanna say the majority of coach of the year awards have gone to ones on top-3 teams, all of the MVP's have gone to players on top-3 teams (Lira being robbed last split being a great example of how their awarding system is heavily biased), and actual player of the game awards are quite meaningless as they'll take a 13-10-10 corki who goes 0-9 in the early game and last-hits all of his kills over a 7-7-10 kindred who hard carries the early game for his team.

Looking at the actual promo tournaments sorts suggests how bad the team was around him than how bad he apparently is, as you have to wonder how better he would've fared had quas played stuff outside off-meta split pushers and revan not completely lost bot in 2 of the games.

While spring is going to be interesting, it's the off-season I'm more looking forward to as there'll not just be a ton of UFA's (smeb being at the top of that list) but there'll also be a ton of teams looking to upgrade, especially in EU which could very well see a shift from the norm so to speak (namely their teams getting high-end UFA's for once).

hotarseAug 16, 20171 votes

Anyone care to analyze what exactly went wrong with P1? They had a great spring split and looked very strong then. Arrow was one of the few ADCs that could still carry games in a utility ADC meta. Ryu was arguably very good during that split as well. The big changes coming into Summer are the jungler swaps and support swaps. Now, it might not be a popular opinion, but everyone's mother's favorite jungle, Mike Yeung, wasn't really that impressive. Xpecial has moments where you might recall Kiwikid's gaffes, but not quite as bad. So... it probably comes down to some internal issues with coaching and team unity. To go from 3rd to Relegations in the matter of a couple months can't just be meta changes... So, what happened really?