With preseason fully underway for casual players, and tweets that pros are starting to return to their team homes, I'm getting excited for Season 8 of the NA LCS. When can we expect all 10 team names and rosters to be announced? There are a lot of really talented players floating around in free agency that it is interesting to hear where they will land.
Riot eSports needs to do a better job at reporting on the rosters and players in the LCS.
ChompyWulf12 votesI'm really looking forward to seeing how Immortals will build on . . .
Oh. . .
Wait. . .
That's right, Riot would rather axe a fan favorite and get paychecks from NBA teams.
Fuck the NALCS.
GeminiRune9 votesThat's the org's fault. The team can be great and all but if the org doesn't have the dedicated plan in their favor what's it all for? Clearly they weren't up to the approval rating that other legacy teams have. Hell, DIG failed and they're more legacy of an org than IMT.
They wanted this. Fans wanted this. This is the repercussion we've all accepted.
ChompyWulf7 votesFrankly, I call bull.
First, it's not about legacy. Even if it were, IMT has only been around two years. DIG has been around longer, but has also been shut down and bought out once already.
Secondly, success brings exposure and income. IMT has had success, more so than Liquid or Fox.
New organizations often operate as a negative income for a couple years, especially if aggressive in expanding and offering better than average contracts like IMT has. Nobody has criticized IMTs management, until now when Riot slammed the door in their face with claims contradicting IMT statements.
Secondary evidence favors IMT. They have been at a financial loss, but have the resources to dump twice the LCS buy-in into Overwatch while pursuing that franchise slot...and no hints of any sponsors backing out or lost. Furthermore, any profits gained from a team expanding into multiple Esports bolsters their financial security.
The franchising denial was a hatchet job.
GeminiRune3 votesLegacy absolutely played a bit of leverage on top of stability especially for the teams that were in over the season. Yes IMT has had 2 years and DIG longer than that. But that's not a sole factor to the decision.
Think beyond League Esports! Success in League and success as an Esports Organization are not the same. FOX and TL may be dirt in League as it stands now but they have killer infrastructure and dedication that IMT can't just magically pull out of a top hat for what: one meaningful couple of months in one game?
This is a direction that orgs are starting to consider when wanting to make it big in the esports scene. Every org starts somewhere and builds their brand over time and drive. You don't wait until you're feeling successful to start pushing for more. Again, think beyond League.
IMT screwed themselves just as the other orgs who failed to get in that once had a spot. That's just the reality.
ChompyWulf3 votesYou prove my pointer legacy meaning nothing in either my post or Riots decisions. Some of the oldest teams were left out, while one of the newest kept.
Fox is a dirt organization with bad infrastructure but deep pockets. Go look at how many teams they have started and lost already. If they can't keep other squads afloat, how safe are they for LCS long term? NV has a longer organization history than most of the LCS teams, and plenty of healthy infrastructure, but were denied. TSM has tried to expand to other Esports with more flops than success, but has dedicated much to their LoL team and is in. IMT has in a very short period of time become a noteworthy organization in LoL and larger Esports, but has been shut out. If you go back and look at the decisions, some kinda make sense, while others make NO sense. Shutting out a rising squad that is putting themselves regularly in top of NA and branching to multiple other revenue streams smells like some foul agenda.
It's not just a matter of waiting for success, but laying a good foundation then expanding the right way. IMT started to branch out and do well, and have the backing to expand BIG to a different game while pushing to keep their LCS spot. Being shut out is puzzling to a LOT of observers with Riot being far too quiet at this point about defending the move. When the majority of news stories, even the mainstream ESPN, call it a black eye or disgrace, that should tell you something.
It was an axe job and dirty.
GeminiRune3 votesI'm sorry but I feel that you misunderstand my point entirely. If you want to use League reputation as the factor as to why teams should and shouldn't be accepted, then none of the new teams that got in deserve their spots, don't you think? You might as well keep relegation a thing which that failed to bring in new orgs, spotlight, and competition itself.
You make claim that FOX is dirt poor but the org, specifically Rick Fox, is quite driven if you think of it. That drive can do wonders rather than throwing your eggs in a single basket. You talk about disbanded teams but what about sponsored players? JWong, JDCR, Tokido, Saint, etc. Even if FOX got cut they'd still have strong players across other relevant games. But that's just light to my own point.
There were dozens of applicants to this whole thing. And they did release an article explaining the process at hand. It's unfortunate that teams didn't make the cut but I wouldn't call it some kind of inside job or death sentence because the bandwagon decided to do that.
IMT doesn't have to die with the decline from LCS. Neither do the other investors who failed. League does not need to be the cornerstone of successful esports orgs as well. So do tell me, if you were someone who was once fine with the franchising change before IMT got cut, why do you want it to go back now?
pretty H2 votesit's also for the stability of the league. you act like tsm is the most paid professional headliner. c9 makes more money than them overall...
ChompyWulf1 votesI was actually ambivalent on the franchising move, and particularly dislike teams basically having hard protection so an organization can basically let their team bomb horribly for four years and never lose their spot. Its awful for NA growth and evolution in LoL. There have been a couple teams who have risen into LCS from challenger series bit often struggle to rise higher. Meanwhile, Misfits showed with the right work Challenger to Worlds can be done within one year.
You missed the point that Fox is a garbage organization but have deep pockets. Why they are kept when they are failing to keep viable Esports in their org is baffling while IMT who bought in the same year and has had LoL success AND is successfully expanding is shut out.
I still support the IMT org, but frankly don't care much about the games they have players for now.
And fuck the NA LCS. My loyalty has swung to LCK for good.
Ale non è male1 votesI was actually ambivalent on the franchising move, and particularly dislike teams basically having hard protection so an organization can basically let their team bomb horribly for four years and never lose their spot. Its awful for NA growth and evolution in LoL.
To be honest, the 5/8 rule is kinda fair. it gives time to the teams to experiment and play rookies without fearing the consequences of drop out immediately of the league, while giving Riot a tool to kick out teams that are clearly mismanaged or do not even try to compete (and to be honest I think Riot would use it only in extreme case, not if a team is genuinely trying
There have been a couple teams who have risen into LCS from challenger series bit often struggle to rise higher. Meanwhile, Misfits showed with the right work Challenger to Worlds can be done within one year.
That is the reason why franchising would be pure garbage for EU Eu has wider talent pool, bigger competitive underwood because of regional and lower tier european tournament and way more mid level organizations (either organic e-sports team or traditional teams) willing to invest. EU org needs more money, visibility and a better structured safety net to stimulate orgs to invest(because old Challenger if you got relegated from LCS you were at risk of losing also your Challenger series spot immediately as you had to rebuild from scratch a team that could be top 4 in challenger)...it does not need to have few franchises locked like in NA where there was no competitive underwood whatsoever to grow players and allow Challenger organizations to build roster strong enough to promote (thus the Academy team system), neither those orgs had other outlet where build an organization over time outside LCS/CS
EU should get a different system, either an expanded and improved CS (and ERLs/CSQ with middle level regions getting spot in CSQ like Italy and Balkans/Greece), or just go some other creative way that does not feel crap or second fiddle to NA choices (Going for the old LCK system? Going for a tournament circuit? Just stay with the current system but give as much exposure as NA with the amount of content provided - because let's be honest, basically all Riot produced show like This or That etc are focused on NA - )
You missed the point that Fox is a garbage organization but have deep pockets. Why they are kept when they are failing to keep viable Esports in their org is baffling while IMT who bought in the same year and has had LoL success AND is successfully expanding is shut out.
The concern expressed is that IMT is backed by VC money, so it is not assured that their current investors won't pull the capital away at any moment if they feel e-sport/IMT investment is not worthy anymore... you do not have to agree with this reasoning, but at least is something thta can be understood and debated around rather than the "hurr durr, Riot is taking paychecks from NBA teams"
dakm1021 votesYou do realize how successful Echo Fox is in other esports right? in almost every fighting game that is a popular esport at the moment (besides guilty gear and I believe KOF). Meanwhile they have legends like JDCR in tekken, Jwong in street fighter and marvel, Sonicfox in injustice and other netherrealm games (mk etc.), Tokido in street fighter and finally Mew2king in Melee. All top level players in the world, many being in the top 5 at least of their games. So saying that they are a garbage org is false. their philosophy in terms of drafting for their lol team has been questionable yes. But you cannot say they are a garbage org that is failing to keep viable esports. This is a problem with some people where they don't actually look at any esport except for their own and immediately assume that their's is the only real esport.
Raiyza4 votesIt's also just one game. Teams like Liquid and TSM have other games too. IMT maybe just want to focus on a other games.
ChompyWulf2 votesYou make it sound like IMT chose not to pursue a spot.
LinoWidge2 votesAnd you make it sound like it's not a business that has to make money...
The IMT roster has been picked up by Liquid & they're swapping Flame out for Impact (a huge upgrade), so if you were that big a fan of the IMT roster continue to support those players on TL instead of complaining that they don't wear green & black anymore...
ChompyWulf2 votesI was a fan of the TEAM. A team that jumped in and made a splash going aggressive with player pay, acquiring talent, building young stars and tossing out troublesome characters, improving their total organization. Liquid has been the antithesis of that, a cancer squad that is a total train wreck. I'm sad a couple young stars like Olleh and Cody are now under that awful organization, and supporting it won't help them.
Carnley2 votesIts amazing how many interviews riot has done explaining their reasoning and desires for the team as much as they can without violating non disclousure agreements, how many analysts have discussed this since the leak weeks ago, etc, and still people go off on their own tangents that have no relevant information.
Get over it, there were 10 spots and they werent one of the top 10 applicants
ChompyWulf1 votesThey weren't one of the top paying applicants. Rito was jealous of the money they were dedicating to Overwatch. They surely were at worst the fourth best organization of existing teams.
Carnley2 votesYou're actually just an angry kid if you think this is the reason. Other team with overwatch teams were accepted in the league, and riot has already dethroned that argument and said outright that they don't care about overwatch of what people have put into it, it didn't impact their decision.
Again, BEING ONE OF THE TOP FOUR FINISHERS IN THE NALCS =/= RIGHTS TO BE A PARTNER WITH RIOT.
Finally, please tell me how you know "they weren't one of the top paying applicants."
I already linked a few videos in another reply below for you to watch so you can educate yourself on the topic, which include verification of the information I've been claiming. Please enroll in your local community college's basic writing class, or stop falling asleep in your highschool english class, whichever is relevant to you. Your random harassment of the company doesn't mean anything and it's only hurting your own image.
ChompyWulf1 votesThe videos really say nothing besides smokescreen from Riot and speculation about Imt money.
BTW, show me another team with Overwatch in LA AND a DOTA2 squad.
I wasn't referring only to team competition, but overall organization growth, support, etc...at best TSM, C9, and NV have better infrastructure. Money doesn't make a team or organization good, look at Fox and Liquid.
Carnley2 votes"The videos really say nothing besides smokescreen from Riot and speculation about Imt money."
You really didn't watch any of the videos then, can't help ya with that one. Do you think we covered up 9/11 and traveling to moon too? You just don't like when people give you information that you don't like I guess.
"BTW, show me another team with Overwatch in LA AND a DOTA2 squad."
Why is it relevant that the overwatch team HAS to be based in LA? Why is it relevant that they have to have BOTH competitive teams? I can name teams that have a DOTA 2 team, such as Liquid, and teams that have overwatch teams like C9. But really, until you give me a real reason why this matters, I can spew out any reason for immortals losing their spot. Quick find me another team who's CEO is a ginger and has a black and green jersey who competed in the NALCS from years 2016-2017..... oh and none of their members wore blue shoes! Find me a team like that!!! CONFIRMED RIOT HATES BLUE SHOE WEARERS AND GINGERS.
(Also if you really want an answer to your question OpTic has a DOTA roster and Overwatch if the info I just found is accurate, again, no real reason as to why it matters until you list a reason.)
"I wasn't referring only to team competition, but overall organization growth, support, etc...at best TSM, C9, and NV have better infrastructure. Money doesn't make a team or organization good, look at Fox and Liquid."
I'm actually so confused on why you keep making random comments about money. You can speculate day in and day out about a company's finances, but you'll never really know. That aside, you know what isn't good for a company looking to revenue share with their partners? Teams that spend tons of money and don't make any returns off of that. IE, Sally built a lemonade stand with delicious lemonade, in the middle of a desert and nobody came to buy her lemonade because it was the middle of the desert and lost all her money. Don't become a business partner with Sally. :(
To put this into real terms, you can buy out the best roster, best coach, etc by slamming a mountain of cash into them and win the split. Doesn't mean you got any of that money back for your business. Team success in the NALCS =/= (does not equal, incase you don't understand) Business success. Is Immortals a team that fits that category? Who knows, Riot won't tell us their finances, damn those bastards for not breaking a contract and telling us a company's personal and private information amirite.
By the way, Noah clearly stated in his announcement about IMT not making it back into lcs, and i quote "I don't agree with riot's reasons" therefore he knows the reason why riot declined them. Why didn't Noah tell his fans why? Again, most likely because it's personal and private information that they as a company cannot and should not share, but who knows. Bottom line is, IMT could tell you riot's reasons for them not making it into the LCS. It's not riot's place to tell the public about IMT's company, if anyone is going to do it, IMT should do it themselves. Be mad at them if anyone (although that'd be wrong as well, but at least it's a start on the right track).
Also I find it funny how you ignored my other comment which had the bulk of my argument. WAS IT AN UNDERCOVER JOB TO OMIT AND PRETEND MY REPLY DIDN'T HAPPEN? FIND OUT NEXT TIME ON DBZ.
Raiyza1 votesThink about it.
Theres always a good reason why teams don't get spots. They either didn't invest enough for it, or they got just outright shut out of it.
Which do you think it was?
ChompyWulf1 votesClearly shut out. They expand big to Overwatch and have lost no backing or squads until Riot shut them out. Money wasn't an issue.
SciFi Scrivener2 votesCloud 9 expanded big in Overwatch and didn't lose their spot. The fact is that Immortals organization decided to spend their time and money on other games and did not put in enough effort to keep the LCS spot. It's not some giant conspiracy. IMT LCS fans should be mad at IMT, not Riot. Your team let you down, not Riot.
ChompyWulf1 votesRiot is not only cutting out a rising organization in Esports and one of the NA Worlds reps this year, they are also cutting down games played in a split and are allowing organizations far too much leeway to suck without threat of elimination. Could IMT have not dedicated to being the OWL LA team, saving money and not being a direct viewer competitor to Riot? Yes. But those are not reasons they should be blamed when Riot is just cutting and keeping who they want.
SciFi Scrivener1 votesRiot added a much stronger brand in their place. You and I don't know the specifics are what these organizations brought to the table. But we can be sure that the top eSports company didn't cut out a fully committed org in favor of a lesser option.
The LA OWL team is not a direct viewer competitor to the LCS. That is a red herring. OW does not occupy the same audience. That's like saying Blade Runner 2049 was competing with Bad Mom's Christmas for an audience at the theater.
IMT failed to make their case. Someone else provided a better option. This is not Riots fault. The blame rests fully on IMT. Go jump on some LCK team's bandwagon, run to OWL with IMT, do what ever you want, just know the truth is the IMT didn't fight hard enough to keep their spot.
ChompyWulf1 votesRiot has added a stronger brand? Stronger than Immortals who have been a rising Esports group? Stronger than NV which has been around longer than LoL has? Completely new ownership brands will be stronger? No. Perhaps better funded, but no guarantees whatsoever they can market and develop good Esports teams.
After trying to dig and dig to find actual articles or videos from Rioters giving any reasons why, not only do I suspect Overwatch commitments are an issue, but also notice something that has gone largely silent. Immortals has also purchased a DOTA2 team in September. While your analogy is a gross exaggeration and Overwatch is a different kind of MOBA, DOTA is arguably far bigger and has been a thorn in Riots side. There is two angles for petty motivation, with financials as a smoke screen for the true reason.
And Riot has still given no explanation while revealing the teams and grossly over hyping them as only Riot would.
SciFi Scrivener1 votesYou do realize that Cloud 9 has a DOTA2 team and an OWL team, and they kept their LCS spot. Your theory debunked right there.
Read Jack's interview about how much effort he put into keeping the LCS spot. A whole team was put together to organize a 45 page document, over several months, to make their case. You would think C9 would be guaranteed a spot, but even they had to fight for their spot. IMT just didn't make a strong enough case.
ChompyWulf1 votesC9 does have a OWL spot in London. It's not as direct a competition for a couple reasons. First, unless I'm mistaken, EU matches aren't played in London while NA is in LA. Additionally, it's an NA team with an EU location. Also, L2research, C9 hasn't had a Dota team for over a year.
Reading a different teams story about applying says nothing about Riot pulling a hatchet job on IMT and NV, one a rising new organization gaining steam and another older and more entrenched in Esports than LoL itself.
It's almost as if this "third party" consultant firm used to dealing with traditional sports teams said "we can deliver NBA owners who will pay more, you just need to figure out who to cut." and Riot who has a history of being prickly about teams having visibility in other games saw incentive to slash someone doing just that.
SciFi Scrivener2 votesYou're a lost cause. Hate all you want. I'm going to go play some League, watch NA LCS, and be happy. So long.
ChompyWulf2 votesHere's the problem, for every time you try to argue a point I make, I can discredit it or extrapolate another layer of why Riot is unfairly and unevenly axing some teams. The MAJOR problem is Riot saying nothing official. Especially with such a high profile team as Immortals and a longstanding name like DIG, Riot should tell the fans why. Even admitting "We mihht have accepted these teams, but these other newcomers were going to put a larger up front investment down" would be better than silence.
III BAKURYU III 1 votesI agree. I think at this point it's important for Riot to show "face" instead of being silent and not speaking on the matter. However, Riot will most likely talk about the subject and give out an official post later down the road if not 1-2 weeks before the LCS starts.
Carnley1 votesI actually just realized this thread continued going for so long, sorry if I'm bringing up a 'dead' thread, but I feel like it's important to explain how you're completely full of shit.
Again, Riot cannot make specific statements about why certain teams were not accepted, both Riot and the teams themselves have confidentiality agreements with each other about the process they underwent. Riot got to see every bit of personal information the company has to offer, including things like their finances. THEY CANNOT TALK ABOUT THESE THINGS TO THE PUBLIC AND THEY'VE ALREADY STATED IN MULTIPLE INTERVIEWS THAT THERE WERE THINGS IN IMMORTALS APPLICATION THAT THEY CANNOT DISCLOSE THAT WORRIED THEM, THAT ON TOP OF THE OTHER AMAZING APPLICATIONS THEY RECEIVED PUSHED THEM OUT OF THE RUNNING.
All you're doing is spewing your own personal hate with no real research done on the topic. Your only 'point' is that immortals was a top four team that put out content for its viewers, both of which, are hardly relevant to a company trying to decide WHAT TEAMS SHOULD BECOME PARTNERED WITH THE COMPANY. Just because you like the team does not mean they should become partnered with Riot.
Please, do some actual research before ranting aimlessly like an angry child. Use whatever college/high school education you have and realize that you need to back up your 'arguments' otherwise you sound like a complete douchebag. You can't just go around slandering the company just because they cut your favorite team. If you think there's a 'undercover job' or whatever silly language you used in your posts, please give us ACTUAL reasons other then your own groundless opinions.
Also, here's some start for the research you could undergo about the topic! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmvamkHcnc0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyqB4LK_MAY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZIQJawPNmM
All of these are either interviews from the rioters in charge of franchising as well as a well respected eSports journalist. Again, this is just a start to get you going ;)
ChompyWulf1 votesI've seen part of first video and all of the last one. There is nothing of substance behind either regarding "why". Riot could even lay out some basics of why they made the decision, but only give generic "not same vision" garbage. Nondisclosure agreements or not, they should be able to provide some explanation and frankly have only blown PR smoke.
The fact that Immortals not only was competing for a franchise opening, but buying an Overwatch slot, and a DOTA 2 team, with no major hint from anyone that their backers are going to pull the plug, really bucks the idea that money is an issue. The idea Riot is scared of a team currently mostly financed by VC dollars makes no sense considering three new LCS teams are solely backed by venture capitalists at this point as well.
On the other end of stability, how on earth can you defend 100 Thieves coming in? They couldn't exist for more than one year in the esport genre the founder knew, and have been an empty organization for one year and THAT looks safe long term with a group that has no ties to MOBAs in general? This is a group with some amazing plan that is stronger than Immortals or even better, NV?
Like it or not, Riot should actually give defense for why they are slashing IMT when Noah and company have been class acts about it and fans want answers.
pretty H1 votesYou make it sound like IMT chose not to pursue a spot.
i mean they didn't. they were given the opportunity but chose not to.. lol
Gregbo1011 votesThey tried to get a spot but weren't part of the top 10 teams in Riots opinion so they did pursue it they just weren't successful.
AlmightyParadigm1 votesImmortals was given the opportunity to diversify in the way that the LCS wanted, and they chose to not do so is why they no longer have a spot in the NA LCS. It was not that they were cut out for another team, they made the choice to leave the NA LCS after hearing what they wanted. Which was just to expand their presence on social media, things that TSM has already done as they have streamers as well as teams and stuff like that. Which is a good idea cuz if you remember when Doublelift chose not to play for a season split he became a streamer for TSM. Its avenues like that, which teams like OpTic have a history of being well versed in that they want players to have more opportunities once their careers are done that still affiliate themselves with the League of Legends community. Look at call of duty and the player tepee for example. once he stopped being a player he became a caster, and theres alot of ppl who have retired who are still relevant because of those types of models. Look at BigTymer from optic. thats the changes they wanted to see, and IMT didnt want that for their org. While i can respect that wasnt their vision for their org, i think that its important to have that avenue for those players who basically would be leaving the pros for whatever reason with no resume to find work other than they played games professionally for x amount of years
SciFi Scrivener3 votes[slayer-pantheon-popcorn] Thank you, I do like salt with my popcorn
el Tartoon1 votesNever support Overwatch or you aren't committed to LCS. LUL
ChompyWulf1 votesDon't much like Blizzard. Never tried or watched Overwatch. LCK all the say from now on for me. Screw the NA LCS pretender garbage.
KidzBopFTW2 votesThe main reason they did it was because of how badly their front office spent money and they had more money invested in other things besides league.
Ale non è male4 votesToday is the official start of LCS free agency, so no matter how good Riot esport coverage is, you will have to wait quite a good amount of tine
SciFi Scrivener1 votesI guess being an NFL fan for so many years has spoiled me. With them you get up to the minute news on who is playing where.
Miror B1 votesWould heavily reccomend the ESPN and "thescore" esports apps then if you want up to the minute stuff. I have both of them on my work phone, and get most of the news once it appears (with odd things like romain signing with an LCS team not being one of them).
Miror B2 votesSorta. While it is "technically" the start of free agency, many of the contracts expire tomorrow so we won't see much action until then, barring players resigning with teams (CLG being an example of that as apparently they've signed Darshan until the end of 2018 and stixxay/huhi until the end of 2019) or teams transferring contracts (TL being an example of this as apparently they've acquired the rights to pobelter/cody/xmithie/AnDa from IMT).
III BAKURYU III 2 votesYou will pretty much have to find out the trades and player movements yourself and not really expect Riot to tell you on these boards(Show results to games 1-2 mins after they already happened but not show player movement or trades).
LinoWidge2 votesIt is currently free agency... so we won't know full rosters till late December most likely... currently known roster moves are: Bjergsen resigned with TSM, who also signed former IMT coach Ssong C9 picked up top lane wunder-kid Licorice, while Impact is exploring free agency. CLG resigned Darshan, Huhi, & Stixxay. Aphromoo to free agency. TL Signed Xsmithie, Pobelter, & CodySun, Piglet to free agency. FLY signed Stunt, LemmonNation to Free Agency OpTic has no player signings yet, but has chosen Zaboutine as it's coach Same for 100 thieves no known players yet, but the coach will be Prolly.
