c9 Hai "thats when we knew they fucking lost the game"
yeah. TSM is getting worse and worse
34 Comments
Yxgl222HaX6 votesIve been saying it for ages if you keep using the same stratagy of trying to get bjerg fed and santorin hovering around mid even low tier teams will pick up on that, the novelty really wears off after a while.
Dedrius3 votesI like TSM but their strategy needs to change, they can't rely on Bjerg to carry every game and just sit around waiting for late game to come. They need to start being more aggressive and try rather than being afraid of making any mistakes.
Captain Lito1 votesI like TSM but their strategy needs to change, they can't rely on Bjerg to carry every game and just sit around waiting for late game to come. They need to start being more aggressive and try rather than being afraid of making any mistakes.
It's not that, it's the fact that Bjerg isn't even getting too far ahead anymore, because, I don't know, Santorin is useless?
Dedrius1 votesHes not really useless he just performs way better on junglers that can make plays and carry but they keep putting him on champs like gragas to be a meat shield.
Gaxx D2 votesWhen was Santoring actually "performing" or "making plays"? Do you even watch the games? Or are you basing his performance on KDA, which he kept for so long because he actually avoids making plays and is first to run away?
Dedrius1 votesWhen playing champs like Jarvan he tends to make plays and do well
Lugg1 votesPeople have figured out TSM is basically a one trick pony. I honestly can't see them winning a single game at Worlds right now unless they get a really lucky draw to face a wild card team.
Zhugan1 votesTSM has one good player at the moment. ONE. And, knowing that Bjergsen is good makes strategizing against TSM pretty easy. Especially since its pretty easy to bait Lust/Turtle into bad choices and Santorin is totally useless on tank/utility junglers so unless you make a mistake he isn't gonna be able to punish the other team very well.
Dyrus is still solid, but when he is so often dragged into losing fights bot by Bjergsen's poor shotcalling it means that he can never hope to really get ahead in lane even if he has a winning match up or is better than his lane opponent.
Femcel2 votesI disagree with that. I think Bjerg AND Lustboy are their only two good players. Let's face it, Dyrus is past his prime, Santorin is underwhelming at best, and well... Wildturtle dives in with his mini equalizer a little too often. Lustboy can and does make plays and opportunities for his team (see C9 vs TSM baron fight) but I think his main problem is communication, so no one ever realizes that he's actually making a play.
Zhugan1 votesHaving a great support working with a bad ADC usually means that you basically have a bad support. (A bad support with a good ADC means that same things, as far as I am concerned.)
Lustboy makes plays, but how often does TSM capitalize on them? Lustboy engages and then things go south because TSM doesn't follow through on those plays. Which means that his plays aren't good because he is doing the opposite of what the rest of the team is doing. If he really wants to make big plays he'd be better served to play a disengage champion and play into the ridiculously conservative style that the rest of TSM is playing with.
LaceUp232 votesBy your logic, a WR dropping a pass means P. Manning is a bad QB.
Zhugan2 votesNo, by my logic if WRs drop a lot of his passes he's a bad QB. And, in that case, he would be.
Or did it never occur to you that a "good play" isn't a good play if no one else can do anything with the hypothetical "good play".
Your argument is based in the same great logic that any landed Blitzcrank hook is a good hook. Even if the Blitz pulled the enemy Amumu into the middle of your team so he can ult you and your team gets aced.
Landing the hook is great, but if what happens after isn't it isn't a good play.
Peyton Manning could have a 100% completion percentage and if that netted him 50 yards over the course of the game it is totally meaningless.
Lustboy's "great plays" haven't netted TSM much of anything in the past couple of weeks so they aren't great plays.
LaceUp231 votesNo, by my logic if WRs drop a lot of his passes he's a bad QB. And, in that case, he would be.
That literally makes no sense. At all. And no, my comparison isn't anywhere near your Blitz example. That is a bad play, regardless of what your team does with it.
Zhugan1 votesIt makes all the sense in the world. If one WR dropped a pass one time, that's bad, but doesn't show a symptom of who is at fault. If several WRs drop passes all the time, that is more likely to be a symptom of bad passing by the quarterback than his entire team not knowing how to catch the ball.
Lustboy makes these "great plays", but nothing comes of them. Then they aren't great plays. Throwing a ball near a receiver in the end zone isn't a great play, getting the ball to them in the end zone is. Jesus Christ, do you even watch football?
LaceUp231 votesThrowing a ball near a receiver in the end zone isn't a great play, getting the ball to them in the end zone is. Jesus Christ, do you even watch football?
By this statement, I would say that you have never put on a helmet in your entire life. You obviously don't understand the difference between a regular incompletion and a dropped pass. I will explain it for you. You example of "throwing a ball near a receiver in the end zone" not being a great play is completely accurate. That, however, ISN'T A FUCKING DROPPED PASS. Lmao, "Oh shit, I can't catch a ball...must be my QB's fault."
Linthe1 votesIt makes all the sense in the world. If one WR dropped a pass one time, that's bad, but doesn't show a symptom of who is at fault. If several WRs drop passes all the time, that is more likely to be a symptom of bad passing by the quarterback than his entire team not knowing how to catch the ball.
Lustboy makes these "great plays", but nothing comes of them. Then they aren't great plays. Throwing a ball near a receiver in the end zone isn't a great play, getting the ball to them in the end zone is. Jesus Christ, do you even watch football?
These analogies are stupid. A "dropped" pass is 100% on the WR. Every time. The QB's job is to get the ball into the WR's hands. If he does that, it's the WR's fault.
If Blitz gets the hook from God.. and Jinx just stands there... 0% of the time it's on Blitz. ZERO.
Turtle is a decent ADC- but more of a clean up ADC than a carry. But he is super gun shy now. Bringing in Keith did NOT help after that "come to Jesus" talk that Regi gave both Dyrus and Turtle. And Keith is NOT the answer at ADC.
Santorin is a support jungler. TSM never lets Dyrus play carries so I am not sure anyone knows if he can. So that leaves exactly 1 threat. Control that threat (and more and more teams are showing that they ARE capable of controlling Bjerg) and TSM loses.
Zhugan1 votesYour right. Receiver touches the ball is 100% his fault. Never mind that a pass thrown too hard, or with too much spin (or too little), or to a receiver that has a safety about to crush him, or any of a host of other situations is 100% the receiver's fault. Nothing to do with bad decision making or a bad throw from the QB. Being on target is just a part of a good pass, and sometimes it can even be the lesser part of a good pass. Again, I ask, have you ever even watched football?
As for the rest of your post: The team has been coached to play conservatively. The entire team. You even agree with that from what you've said. Which means that if Lustboy makes a "great" play that is balls out aggressive, the rest of the team is never gonna follow on it because they were coached to be conservative. Which means his play isn't great because he is playing a totally different style than everyone else.
As for your analysis of Turtle/Santorin/Dyrus, I more or less agree. (Although I'd say Dyrus does have the potential to carry. Historically he was one of the best carry top laners in NA, which is part of why putting him on tanks is so baffling to me.)
Now, for the post below this one...
I played football for two years before I just didn't have the time to play anymore. (I was a starting tight end both years I played, and I flexed as fullback about half the time when we weren't using a tight end.) I got my hand on the ball A LOT when it wasn't particularly catchable. Overthrown or underthrown, but still within my relatively large reach. Technically, those were dropped passes and not regular incompletions, but not catching a ball that was at my knees or a solid 3+ feet over my head is about as much my fault as not being 9 feet tall is.
So, taking that analogy to completion... Lustboy threw the ball over the head of Bjergsen on that baron fight. Bjergsen could have maybe done the trick and managed to win the fight with a perfect flash and a quick 100% accurate unloading of his kit, but that is about as easy as catching a pass with the tips of your fingers given that he had all of 1.5 seconds to execute that maneuver. Given that he was coached not to take that kind of risk, that means that Lustboy put himself in a position where his teammates had been coached not to be. On any other team, that might have been a great play, but on TSM, at this moment in time, it was an egregious over-extension that lost TSM that fight.
Femcel1 votesWhat do you mean there's nothing they could do? In the Lustboy tibbers in that fight ALONE, Bjerg could have easily flashed and ulted for an INSTANT triple, instead he stayed back and did nothing. Wildturtle wasn't even there, and they are just so out of sync that it's ridiculous. Regardless of what you say, Lustboy is a GREAT support, and his gameplay prove that. As I said earlier, it's the communication part that fails him.
Zhugan1 votesHe goes in. Team doesn't follow. You don't need communication to see the possibility of the play that Bjergsen could have made. Bjergsen was RIGHT THERE. The play didn't happen. That's not a good play. That was an aggressive play made on a team of players that are afraid to use flash for anything other than avoiding death. When none of them flash aggressively other than Lustboy, the play CANNOT be good because he's just overextending without any back up. That is, I'm pretty sure, in the textbook as the definition of a bad play.
Femcel1 votesAny play that gives your teammates the tools you need to win the fight is a good play. For instance if a Thresh hooks, e's and does his full cc combo on a squishy target, and the adc is standing right next to him and does nothing, and the target gets away, Thresh is not at fault, and he surely didn't make a "bad play" that would be the adc not following up on what could have been an easy kill. Same with Lustboy, he gave his team the opportunity to win the fight at baron, they didn't take it and got wiped. Not Lustboy's fault, it's his team's fault for not following up.
Zhugan1 votesIf he goes in and the team isn't ready for it, its a bad play. Which is what happened. Blowing all your cooldowns and getting a stun on 3-4 people doesn't matter if your team isn't ready. Because if Bjerg DID follow up in that situation and he didn't kill all of the people that are stunned then Bjerg and Lust die.
On top of that, given how conservative TSM has been playing, it would have been of FAR more value to just wait until Turtle was closer and stop Balls from managing to get the 4 man wall slam that he got just seconds later. Remove that from the equation and TSM might be able to win the fight, but Lust didn't have shit left to do a damn thing to stop that from happening because he blew his load when his team wasn't ready.
That wasn't a good play. It was a flashy play, and it could have been good if TSM was at all ready to follow through on it, but TSM wasn't ready and it left them wide open to C9s engage just moments later.
Lstrike1 votesLustboy is a good support. But he is nowhere near the likes of Xpecial, Aphromoo, BunnyFuFu and Yellowstar. This maybe because he hasn't got the right backup supports nowadays are the shot callers of the team and Lustboy is just terrible in his communication. Sometimes I even think Wildturtle is bad because he has like 0 sync with Lustboy. He used to play much better with Xpecial.
But the main problem TSM is having is the meta shift of mid laners. In the carry-mid meta (LeBlanc, Zed), Bjergsen can solo carry the entire team. Now he can't because current meta is top lane focused and Dyrus just can't play top lane carries.
IMO, TSM should do the switch where Bjergsen plays carry tops and Dyrus plays poke/safe mids (Azir, Orianna). Given the experience of these 2 players, they can easily adapt to the role change.
DeathToHeretics2 votesYellowstar is on a whole different level from the rest of those guys. That isn't an NA/EU thing, it's an "Oh my god did he actually just heal his carry with Janna ulti over the wall to win the teamfight?!"
But forcing Bjerg to stay locked in as the carry role, regardless of what lane he's in, wont bode well for TSM at all. They need to adapt beyond figuring out how Bjerg can carry hardest.
Lstrike1 votesYellowstar is on a whole different level from the rest of those guys. That isn't an NA/EU thing, it's an "Oh my god did he actually just heal his carry with Janna ulti over the wall to win the teamfight?!"
But forcing Bjerg to stay locked in as the carry role, regardless of what lane he's in, wont bode well for TSM at all. They need to adapt beyond figuring out how Bjerg can carry hardest.
Why wouldn't they? They acquired Bjerg so he can wear the carry pants and he was very good at it and he still is. They just need to figure out how they can use this in the current carry-top meta. If Bjerg plays something like Olaf, Ryze, Yasuo, Dyrus can play something like Lulu, Orianna or even Ezreal or Varus or even beefy mids like Chogath, Jarvan. This way they can still play to their strengths and adapt to the top-lane meta.
Only thing is, Bjerg has to practice how to use teleports correctly in teamfights and Dyrus has to practice how not to die 1v1 in mid lane.
Earl Eulrich2 votesIt´s not a "carry-top" meta, there are plenty of teams winnign with tanks aswell if they play accordingly. But if you look at the best teams in the world they all have their jungler and support work together to control the map and set up their carries - for TSM Santorin and lustboy just don´t fit together. I think they really need a playmake-jungler, Santorin is just too risk avert overall for a team that dirly would need some drive from somewhere.
Gaxx D2 votesAnd then you see Xpecial flashing into the wall, then walking up to the enemy team and missing tibbers. Sorry bud, but Xpecial is a horrid support. He plays around a bunch of pretty talented people, and that's what SOMETIMES makes him look good (an occasional play doesn't really make you a great support). BunnyFuFu's only good support is thresh, apart from that he's a pretty good shotcaller, and that's about it. Aphro could grow into an elite class support, but he's overshadowed by Doublelift's idiocy and selfishness. Lustboy can't really do much, when he has only one good player on his team. And Yellowstar, like Death said, is on a completely different level. He made every adc he played with recently, look amazing. And his shotcalling is world class. And - just my opinion - he's the best teamfighting support in the world, including both LPL and LCK. Also, if you think that Dyrus, who's mechanically impaired could be put in mid lane, then you oughta stop trying to analyze this game - you suck at it. Yes, Bjerg could adapt, but he'd be nowhere near as good on top as he's on mid, and Dyrus would get dumpstered on by any and every mid laner.
Lstrike1 votes[{quoted}](name=Gaxx D,realm=EUW,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=ksZxttJ7,comment-id=00040001,timestamp=2015-07-28T07:32:22.982+0000)
And then you see Xpecial flashing into the wall, then walking up to the enemy team and missing tibbers. Sorry bud, but Xpecial is a horrid support. He plays around a bunch of pretty talented people, and that's what SOMETIMES makes him look good (an occasional play doesn't really make you a great support). BunnyFuFu's only good support is thresh, apart from that he's a pretty good shotcaller, and that's about it. Aphro could grow into an elite class support, but he's overshadowed by Doublelift's idiocy and selfishness. Lustboy can't really do much, when he has only one good player on his team. And Yellowstar, like Death said, is on a completely different level. He made every adc he played with recently, look amazing. And his shotcalling is world class. And - just my opinion - he's the best teamfighting support in the world, including both LPL and LCK. Also, if you think that Dyrus, who's mechanically impaired could be put in mid lane, then you oughta stop trying to analyze this game - you suck at it. Yes, Bjerg could adapt, but he'd be nowhere near as good on top as he's on mid, and Dyrus would get dumpstered on by any and every mid laner.
Huh I have seen more Lustboy fail flashes and fail skill shots than Xpecial to be honest. Also, Xspecial has superior ward control than all other supports in NA. BunnyFuFu's best champ is Thresh doesnt mean he is horrible at other supports. Look at his Nautilus in the beginning of this season. Doublelift failing again and again doesnt make Aphromoo a bad support.
All your points only reinforce what I said. Lustboy is worse than all these supports mainly because he doesn't open his mouth while these do.
If you think Dyrus is mechanically impaired then you are the one who sucks at analyzing. Why would Reginald keep someone who is mechanically impaired in his team for more than 2 years. Its just that he tilts hard when he gets focused which is what is happening in recent months. Mid lane is harder to gank than top and its also the easiest to counter-gank so Santorin can focus more on Dyrus while Bjerg holds his own in top lane. Just think about this for a second before hurling abuses.
Gaxx D1 votesWhy would Reginald do any of the things he had done in the past? He's great as a marketer, not so much as a manager of the team. And yes, Dyrus is a weak mechanical player compared to other top laners, and when it comes to mid, competition is even tighter there. Just because Santorin would camp mid for Dyrus, doesn't mean Dyrus wouldn't be falling behind the opposing mid laner, when Santorin isn't there to babysit him (and the fact alone, that he'd need a jungler to babysit him speaks for itself). I never said BunnyFufu is horrible on supports others than thresh. But pretty decent isn't good enough. Like I said, his biggest strength is his shotcalling, and that's fine. Lustboy is actually vastly superior to Xpecial when it comes to mechanical skill, and no, Xpecial doesn't have a superior ward control to other supports. He's got IWDominate, who's also very vision focused jungler, and so it may look like it's him (xpecial) doing the job. And i never said Aphro is a bad support, far from it. But he will never raise to what he's supposed to be, if he'll stay by Doublelift's side.
Lstrike1 votes[{quoted}](name=Gaxx D,realm=EUW,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=ksZxttJ7,comment-id=0004000100000000,timestamp=2015-07-28T09:24:30.980+0000)
Why would Reginald do any of the things he had done in the past? He's great as a marketer, not so much as a manager of the team. And yes, Dyrus is a weak mechanical player compared to other top laners, and when it comes to mid, competition is even tighter there. Just because Santorin would camp mid for Dyrus, doesn't mean Dyrus wouldn't be falling behind the opposing mid laner, when Santorin isn't there to babysit him (and the fact alone, that he'd need a jungler to babysit him speaks for itself). I never said BunnyFufu is horrible on supports others than thresh. But pretty decent isn't good enough. Like I said, his biggest strength is his shotcalling, and that's fine. Lustboy is actually vastly superior to Xpecial when it comes to mechanical skill, and no, Xpecial doesn't have a superior ward control to other supports. He's got IWDominate, who's also very vision focused jungler, and so it may look like it's him (xpecial) doing the job. And i never said Aphro is a bad support, far from it. But he will never raise to what he's supposed to be, if he'll stay by Doublelift's side.
We just have to agree to disagree on who is a better support Xpecial or Lustboy.
Other than kicking Dyrus off the team, I dont see any other way for TSM to adapt to the new meta.. They will have to take a backseat until the meta shifts back to midlane.
Dyrus is weak mechanically compared to other top laners, I agree. But he can hold his own (that is, not give 1v1 kills and be on par with cs) and mid lanes nowadays are farm fests till mid game (with occasional 1v1 kills) so I think Dyrus would suit better there.
My point is Bjerg should be where the meta is focused which is top lane for now because we can all agree he is the biggest asset of the team. Sure, it takes practice but as I said before, given their experience, it should not be hard. We have seen such things before in other sports so why not LoL.
Gaxx D2 votesBecause switching to a completely different role, even in the same game, is a different monster. You could see what happened to Uzi, when he transfered from adc to mid lane. It simply doesn't work. Dyrus is going to retire after this season anyway, and putting Bjergsen in a new role right before worlds (assuming TSM can get there), would do more bad than good for the team. Besides great midlaners still can carry from the midlane (and kill their laning opponent 1v1, and MAKE PLAYS, which was, is and probably always will be a requirement for a mid laner - and Dyrus can't make plays). Just because you'd put Bjergsen in theorically better role for this meta, doesn't mean it would work in any way.
Lstrike1 votes[{quoted}](name=Gaxx D,realm=EUW,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=ksZxttJ7,comment-id=000400010000000000000000,timestamp=2015-07-28T10:28:33.153+0000)
Because switching to a completely different role, even in the same game, is a different monster. You could see what happened to Uzi, when he transfered from adc to mid lane. It simply doesn't work. Dyrus is going to retire after this season anyway, and putting Bjergsen in a new role right before worlds (assuming TSM can get there), would do more bad than good for the team. Besides great midlaners still can carry from the midlane (and kill their laning opponent 1v1, and MAKE PLAYS, which was, is and probably always will be a requirement for a mid laner - and Dyrus can't make plays). Just because you'd put Bjergsen in theorically better role for this meta, doesn't mean it would work in any way.
Of Course it doesn't mean it would work in any way. These are speculations as to what would make TSM better without replacing members of the team. And don't say it wouldn't work. It worked for C9 Hai. Cloud 9 is doing worlds better now. Look at Nien. He is doing better as ADC than he ever did as CLG top (Granted he started as a ADC but still)
Gaxx D1 votesC9 is doing better with Hai, because he's a great shotcaller, and that's what C9 lacked. They aren't doing better, because Hai is a better jungler than Metoes. In all honesty what would work best for C9, is bring back Meteos, put Hai on support and Lemon as a coach, and there's no team in NA that can beat them. Lemon has great game knowledge and is very good at planning and predicting, Hai is an amazing shotcaller (and both lack mechanical skills, which for support role isn't that crucial), and Meteos is a great jungler. Meanwhile in TSM it's Bjerg who is a shotcaller, and shotcalling from the top lane would be considerably harder. Not to mention, there are way too few picks, that could carry from top lane (even if it is a "top lane meta"). In mid lane you don't have to worry about Bjerg getting banned, because unless Loco/Reginald (I don't even know who makes calls there anymore) screw up pick/ban phase, you will always find a pick that Bjergsen could carry with. Did I also mention, his speciality are assasins/burst mages? Put him on a tank/bruiser, and let's see how he carries.
Minrog1 votesI think BunnyFuFu's best champion so far has been Shen. Yeah he landed some hooks with Thresh and bindings on Morgana, but with Shen he allowed the team to take over the whole map. It enabled Move to be more aggressive as well.
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