If somebody could teach TSM how to play internationally that would be great.

warpenguin555·Oct 17, 2016·11 votes·1,195 views

When you come in as the Number 1 seed from ANY region you are expected to play well, which TSM didnt do and never does. This is why i hate TSM.

26 Comments

ShifuneOct 17, 20166 votes

What does being number 1 have to do with anything? As Doublelift said, "All our teams suck." Being the king of trash still makes you trash.

They didn't get to number 1 by playing against other regions, so you have no way of judging how they will do against them.

You act like because they got number 1 in NA that they should just breeze on through every match. Don't know what world you're living in, but I think you need a reality check.

alucard21383Oct 17, 20164 votes

Maybe they should buy more EU Players?

Miror BOct 17, 20163 votes

G2. Need I say more?

B00B00Oct 17, 20161 votes

Nope, massively underperformed tbh i expected it though, however they are much better than that they showed how good they can be vs Rox too little too late.

As for tsm they played pretty much to the same level they did all season, I think they got complacent in week 2 (not the org the playerS) and as such couldn't get those form back this exited.

5£3 west I general needs to learn better international play, EU showed life a lot of it even though we're incredible week this year

Miror BOct 17, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Nope, massively underperformed tbh i expected it though, however they are much better than that they showed how good they can be vs Rox too little too late.

As for tsm they played pretty much to the same level they did all season, I think they got complacent in week 2 (not the org the playerS) and as such couldn't get those form back this exited.

5£3 west I general needs to learn better international play, EU showed life a lot of it even though we're incredible week this year

Yeah, while many people disagree with it I'm actually under the impression that the "loss" of kikis hurt their team a bit (much like how the addition of DL hurt TSM). Literally every western team nowadays is trying to build their teams by acquiring as many carries as possible, only to eventually crash and burn. While it may work for regular season statistics (due to teams only really needed 2 carries to finish in the top 6), internationally it causes massive problems due to the finite amount of gold actively available in the game and the fact that eastern teams can play around 3 carries by usually targeting the weakest ones and snowballing off that, much the way teams did with jensen/sneaky of c9 and hauntzer/DL of TSM.

Long story short: if teams want to even have a chance of competing with korean/chinese teams, they have to start building their teams better. Rather than having 4 carries and praying one of them snowballs, having 2-3 of them with either a top/jg who can play a defensive/supportive role will more than likely be the way to go, assuming rito doesn't murder the meta again and make supportey mids/ADC's OP again.

Ale non è maleOct 17, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Long story short: if teams want to even have a chance of competing with korean/chinese teams, they have to start building their teams better. Rather than having 4 carries and praying one of them snowballs, having 2-3 of them with either a top/jg who can play a defensive/supportive role will more than likely be the way to go, assuming rito doesn't murder the meta again and make supportey mids/ADC's OP again.

Sorry, but is the other way around TSM is built around two carries, a jungler and a support that basically function to support them and a top that is not required to carry but has to be self-sufficient, and they crashed and burned because of that, because you become too vulnerable that way.

You got to have 5 players that are capable both to sacrifice theirselves to make other shine and that are capable to step up theirselves when required FNC/OG had multpile players capable to carry in S5, as well as RNG and H2K these Worlds and they ended up being the best non Korean teams in the competition...and Korean teams literaly have evry player on the roster that can step up - even the weakest players on those rosters can occasionally step up big

The problem is that in the West the player pool at elite level is too small and there is enough difference between the absolute elite and the rest that the players that are the most capable to carry are never pushed enough to become complete players, barring few notable excpetions

Miror BOct 18, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ale non è male,realm=EUW,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=OrxEyezH,comment-id=0008000000000000,timestamp=2016-10-17T20:54:23.046+0000)

Sorry, but is the other way around TSM is built around two carries, a jungler and a support that basically function to support them and a top that is not required to carry but has to be self-sufficient, and they crashed and burned because of that, because you become too vulnerable that way.

You got to have 5 players that are capable both to sacrifice theirselves to make other shine and that are capable to step up theirselves when required FNC/OG had multpile players capable to carry in S5, as well as RNG and H2K these Worlds and they ended up being the best non Korean teams in the competition...and Korean teams literaly have evry player on the roster that can step up - even the weakest players on those rosters can occasionally step up big

The problem is that in the West the player pool at elite level is too small and there is enough difference between the absolute elite and the rest that the players that are the most capable to carry are never pushed enough to become complete players, barring few notable excpetions

Yeah, no. While you could consider sven a "Support", his past history combined with the picks he's played with TSM make him a full blown carry. TSM didn't acquire him to play the likes of reksai/gragas/amumu (one of these days!), but because from what I understand they wanted a failsafe in case DL ended up being in one of his "botch phases".

Referencing season 5 also doesn't exactly help your points either. The meta has changed to where even the likes of SKT and Rox don't deploy more than 2-3 carries, focusing more on "powering up" the likes of faker/bang/kuro/pray instead of splitting gold across all of them plus smeb/duke. While their top laners/jgers do get fed sometimes, it's usually unintentional and the by-product of things like first bloods/full blown teamfights. That, and would you really want to deny resources from 4 of the best players in the world?

Your idea of there being not enough "elite" western players also doesn't really have anything to do with my point either. I'm not saying the west needs good people who can carry games if needed. If anything, I'm suggesting that western teams have become too "carry focused" to the point in which they'll intentionally try to acquire riskier talent (NRG being a stupidly good example) instead of going after players with more diverse and more team-friendly champion pools. If the west really wants to "compete", then they need more kikis's and less darshan's.

Ale non è maleOct 18, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, no. While you could consider sven a "Support", his past history combined with the picks he's played with TSM make him a full blown carry. TSM didn't acquire him to play the likes of reksai/gragas/amumu (one of these days!), but because from what I understand they wanted a failsafe in case DL ended up being in one of his "botch phases".

Sven is surely not just a ward ala Santorin, he can certainly carry when given the chance, but you can't seriously say he is put by the team on the same level of priority as Bjerg and DL It is not even a matter of quality of players here. TSM is built to carry through the midlaner and/or the AD carry, and will always enter in the game with the idea that their priority is to enhance them to do it. It is not like they are ready to change on the fly this way of thinking, if someone else get fed is by chance of FB/counterjungling/teamfights or through helping those carries and accidentally coming more fed than them H2K just went through an entire QF series when they entirely prioritized the top laner and having an AD carry with big ego like Forg1ven playing almost in a supportive role, despite the fact they had the advantage literaly in every lane...ok, that's a bit of an Extreme circustance because Smurf was by far the weakest point in ANX, but that just show you the difference in the thinking process. If it was TSM to play vs ANX, would have they prioritized Hauntzer over Bjerg or DL? And keep in mind both teams would have likely won a Bo5 vs ANX by prioritizing pretty much everyone, eh. TSM is built the way you are saying Western team should be built, and it didn't work, at all

Referencing season 5 also doesn't exactly help your points either. The meta has changed to where even the likes of SKT and Rox don't deploy more than 2-3 carries, focusing more on "powering up" the likes of faker/bang/kuro/pray instead of splitting gold across all of them plus smeb/duke. While their top laners/jgers do get fed sometimes, it's usually unintentional and the by-product of things like first bloods/full blown teamfights. That, and would you really want to deny resources from 4 of the best players in the world?

Meta has not changed in that sense, lol, do you forget the reason why Koreans stomped everyone was because Smeb/Marin were so dominante (it was basically top lane match-up with tilting Huni that sealed the fate of the Koo-FNC semi)? And how has that change when SSG just went through CuVee and Ambition to beat hard C9? When ROX still has Smeb to fed? If anything, Koreans top laner are in a worse shape till now, since Duke is suffering and Smeb is not up to S5 level, that's why you see less resources funneled into them, which exactly back up my point, that they have everyone ready to carry and will shift resources around to the one with best shape/better match-up. Do you really think ROX isn't going to go through Smeb if they think they can have the advantage there? Of course they will

Your idea of there being not enough "elite" western players also doesn't really have anything to do with my point either. I'm not saying the west needs good people who can carry games if needed. If anything, I'm suggesting that western teams have become too "carry focused" to the point in which they'll intentionally try to acquire riskier talent (NRG being a stupidly good example) instead of going after players with more diverse and more team-friendly champion pools. If the west really wants to "compete", then they need more kikis's and less darshan's.

It has entirely to do with that. There is a limited number of players in the West that has the ability to carry at International leel. If you want to build a carry oriented teams you can't just afford to pass on them, you have basically to accept their tendencies and their personality that could impede them to be flexible enough to step back when is one of their team mates time to Shine (ask to DL for reference), otherwise you have to set on players of lesser quality which are more flexible but can become a liability against the top International and Koreans team It is funny that you mention Darshan, because it shows how your perception is skewed, by miles. He doesn't belong at all in this discussion. He has been proven time and time again that he isn't even elite in the West, never mind at top International level, and quite frankly he is below average at International level. You are delusional if you think you can compete with him, he is relevant in NA only because there isn't much better since they player pool of even decent players is small The caliber of players I'm talking about are the Huni and Impact, not Darshan. And Huni and Impact have shown time and time again that they are kinda like of monodimensional, they can only carry and can't play as supportive/from behind/ as enhancer for their mates. So if you want to pick a top laner to create a seriosly Western contender, you have the difficult choice if taking on one of the few carries, although they are monodimensional and complete exploitable weaknesses once you get to the highest level, or taking a player of lower level like Hauntzer or Kikis which give you more flexibilty and reliabilty but from which the best you can hope for is that they go even or don't lose too hard against even teams of mid International level and you can't ask to step up if one of the designated carries fail. The all-around players like Rekkles or back then Peke are rare in the West, and they usually remain at top for tons of time because there aren't players ready to get their placd even if they regress a bit There is not enough competition from behind to push those players capable to carry to improve and become all-around players to challenge the elite International players. Historically the only exception of a Western role which elite talent pool was on par with Koreans were EU mids before the massive NA exodus, and even now despite a downward season from some of the last years rookies it remains one of the few istances where there are enough carry players capable to fire up the competition and force to improve or being left behind

P.S. Kikis should return to be a jungler like he was on his prime UOL period, he doesn't belong to top lane

KazaLyn ShaoOct 17, 20163 votes

Correction: If somebody could teach North America to play internionally, hell would freeze over.

GhostOfTsushimaOct 17, 20162 votes

EU players are garbage, every non-Korean Region need more Korean Import

Like alot of Korean import

alucard21383Oct 17, 20164 votes

youre so right. they are so garbage that they got 2015 - 2 teams in semifinals / 2016 again 1 in semifinal how many teams from na come out of group stage? Kappa

LankPantsOct 17, 20162 votes

It's simple, they ditch their Top, ADC and Support and move to EU, pick up a random EU ADC and support, maybe a longtime duo from an older team people expect nothing of, import a Korean top laner no-one's ever heard of before. Then all they need to do is recruit a godlike coach out of basically thin air and they'll get to semis easily.

Axe2HandleOct 17, 20162 votes

Hard to compete internationally when you can only scrim vs NA teams. The best teams in the world are in Korea and they play against each other all year competitively. NA only gets scrims in Korean bootcamp and they are only scrims. Scrims are only practice not competing to win.

B00B00Oct 17, 20161 votes

But you still play vs the best and he best do not want to lose.

Teams also practice their in the off season (pre season)

Ale non è maleOct 17, 20162 votes

The problem is/was not how to play internationally, is/was how to play knowing they don't have the individual mechanical advantage in almost every role (or every role against weaker team) All the players range from decent to good to very good, and on their peak form can beat top tier players, but when you comapre them vs a strong international team, barring exceptions being clearly weaknesses in their opponents no one can enter in a game/series and you'll get to think "oh, TSM is going to win that match-up for sure". No, not even Bjerg can They can't easily coast to a win, every team in the group D played their longest game against them, and they had the 2nd worst FB% in the entire Worlds, being only ahead to INTZ in that istance, despite having positive [email protected] they think they can, which is horribly wrong

They can't just sit on their ass and on their supposedly superior mechanichs thinking they are going to win at some point, because they are going to kill the enemies exploiting their mistakes; it is likely going to happen the opposite because the adversaries will likely going more actively to find those openings. Heck, their only FB came from an overaggressive SSG Ambition invade, and vs Splyce in G1 they didn't even go for killing Trashy when they invaded first at blue, it was only Wunder mispositioning that gave them an early kill that game (and if it wasn't for that they could have lost their early lead) and vs Splyce G2 Trashy pulled the trigger for killing Sven (and then got killed himself because the bottom half of TSM collapsed on him to get the easy kill on him); think about the second SSG game or the RNG games, and think about the difference in aggressiveness between TSM and the better teams in their group. Or think about H2k and FB king Jankos.

TSM went S5 calculated Korean style when the best teams around, Koreans and not Koreans, right now have gone for a 180 degree turn, which is ridicoulous given how TSM has supposedly two hard carries surrounded by players that aren't really weak

xJLx MCHammerOct 17, 20162 votes

Aside from Bjerg, all of them with the mentality that they are better mechanically then other players. You put themselves on pedestals and then to base their performance and they should always outplay the opponent on a mechanical level

It works in NA most of th time. Keep in mind, impact beat Haunt in lane. Sneaky and Smoothie also beat then the last match up. Bjerg got soloed but redeem it next game vs Jensen

In words that's not the way it works. Bjerg got soloed playing as if the opponent is scared of him. Double lift lost many of the match up. Sven hears that his teammates call him the best lee sin and starts to be aggressive and losses jungler

Not to mention, their shot calling is not the way not their team fighting. At least not internationally.

All this worlds has done for top tier teams is that they. Red to open their eyes. Edg claiming they can beatbox SKT when SKT said that they felt EDG was easier and it showed. RoX having trouble despite being tournaments favorite. TSM believing thy can get to semis. They could not even get through groups

III BAKURYU III Oct 17, 20162 votes

Not just TSM but NA all together just don't seem to really care all that much. I mean I watch the TSM show every week and after each win or loss the players go into their like dressing rooms and sit down and get on their phones as they talk to each other about the game that was 5 secs ago no real communication especially when they win. Get off the cell phones or ipod or whatever you have and sit down and really talk about the game, honestly pull out a Summoners Rift map if need to and really discuss what you could have done better. I also have a hunch that they don't really talk about games in their practice rooms or strategies because the players on TSM have been stars before and have that ( I'm a star, I don't need advice, I'm Faker jr) type of mentality. Look at Locodoco while he wasn't the best coach he would often disagree with Bjergsen and that is why he was let go by TSM because the STAR player didn't agree with the coach, so it's really a Player ran team and Reginald said it himself that his players have the final word!???? They have Weldon some emotional guy that works for TSM that gives them advice on how to stay calm or something which is fine but it's not really something that looks to be a factor in anything.
TSM went to like 6 straight Finals without the guy, and with Weldon they went to 2 more with the best rosters that TSM has ever had. Is it because of Weldon or the roster of TSM and the past history ? Anyone can do Weldon's job for TSM; all you have to do is ask a question and give a puzzled look as that person talks to you, but in reality your thinking about what you want to eat later on.

TSM has Reginald and while his advice is good it's really just obvious and honestly garbage, for example Reginald will say his thoughts on certain games after the games with the most obvious examples. Seriously go watch a TSM episode and listen to what Reginald says after games.

For a team that has been in the LCS for 4-5 years and have made a name for themselves around the world and the only coaching staff they have is a ex mid lane and owner, Parth, and Weldon. While C9 has a ex LCK player as a coach Reaper.
TSM needs real coaching staff members that can say " Hey we're the coaching staff and you guys will listen and do everything we say" and the best way is to get players that have shown that they can win themselves get players like Piccaboo or Madlife or get Lustboy something because the coaching staff right now for TSM is thin.

xJLx MCHammerOct 17, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=III BAKURYU III ,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=OrxEyezH,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2016-10-17T22:02:50.043+0000)

Not just TSM but NA all together just don't seem to really care all that much. I mean I watch the TSM show every week and after each win or loss the players go into their like dressing rooms and sit down and get on their phones as they talk to each other about the game that was 5 secs ago no real communication especially when they win. Get off the cell phones or ipod or whatever you have and sit down and really talk about the game, honestly pull out a Summoners Rift map if need to and really discuss what you could have done better. I also have a hunch that they don't really talk about games in their practice rooms or strategies because the players on TSM have been stars before and have that ( I'm a star, I don't need advice, I'm Faker jr) type of mentality. Look at Locodoco while he wasn't the best coach he would often disagree with Bjergsen and that is why he was let go by TSM because the STAR player didn't agree with the coach, so it's really a Player ran team and Reginald said it himself that his players have the final word!???? They have Weldon some emotional guy that works for TSM that gives them advice on how to stay calm or something which is fine but it's not really something that looks to be a factor in anything.
TSM went to like 6 straight Finals without the guy, and with Weldon they went to 2 more with the best rosters that TSM has ever had. Is it because of Weldon or the roster of TSM and the past history ? Anyone can do Weldon's job for TSM; all you have to do is ask a question and give a puzzled look as that person talks to you, but in reality your thinking about what you want to eat later on.

TSM has Reginald and while his advice is good it's really just obvious and honestly garbage, for example Reginald will say his thoughts on certain games after the games with the most obvious examples. Seriously go watch a TSM episode and listen to what Reginald says after games.

For a team that has been in the LCS for 4-5 years and have made a name for themselves around the world and the only coaching staff they have is a ex mid lane and owner, Parth, and Weldon. While C9 has a ex LCK player as a coach Reaper.
TSM needs real coaching staff members that can say " Hey we're the coaching staff and you guys will listen and do everything we say" and the best way is to get players that have shown that they can win themselves get players like Piccaboo or Madlife or get Lustboy something because the coaching staff right now for TSM is thin.

Lets not forget that you cant have a debate with certain people because you will be kicked out of the team

Turtle was always the punching bag for Regi.

III BAKURYU III Oct 18, 20161 votes

Exactly Look at Dyrus and Regi. While we are talking about people who are 20-22 years old even young as 18-19 Regi was the owner and a player for TSM and he would just start shitt and even after someone would say "sorry" he would just keep on and on; like why ? So instead of talking and communicating Dyrus would just agree 24/7 with every call and say " yeah" at every comment no real communication and no real debating with each other as a real team should.

Wildturtle got kicked off TSM because he would get caught but look at TSM at the time he was kicked.

Their jungler like always only ganked/camped for Bjergsen so of course Bjergsen would look like a gOD compared to the rest if he was the only one getting any ganks.
Santorin while he would gank (Sometimes) he was completely useless, I'v never seen a jungler on a top tier team like TSM be so useless. Look at his KDA it was GREAT however his team would be meh, he wouldn't do anything risky even if his team was down it's like he cared more about his KDA and hair instead of winning. He just reminds me of a prima donna type of player.
Wildturtle like I said before ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ bot and top were just left alone on an island for a whole split(2015 Summer) and they just wouldn't do anything all game. 42 min per game average and they would just do nothing but wait for their opponent to make a mistake and while that worked for the most part in NA 2nd place Finals it showed it doesn't work internationally.

The roster that TSM has now doesn't need to change it works and it's a really good roster! However they need to get better in the coaching area. I'm just voicing my opinion but I feel like during TSM's practice talks going something like Bjergsen " Guys I need another gank, I can't do anything, I mean look at my Solo Q games where I ping 100 times for ganks and spam the enemies summs 24/7 so the jungler can gank again: I"M FAKER JR Team/coaches " Bjergsen the jungler has been in your lane the whole time, it's been 1v2 for the whole game" Bjergsen " RESPECT MY Authoritah!!!"

Maximum MordeOct 17, 20161 votes

Tyler1 can coach them

Could not careOct 17, 20161 votes

IMT is showing them the way.

MadlivOct 17, 20161 votes

[deleted]

warpenguin555Oct 17, 20164 votes

Ok, no. Worlds are not rigged.

Dapper HatOct 20, 20161 votes

Two main issues is the four scrims against SKT that were released publically complete with voice communications and losing their shot caller for the first week of the tournament play a massive role in their failure. To say that anything other than that is true is disingenuous.