Immortals were like a cat playing with a mouse

Trolosaurus·Feb 20, 2016·2 votes·613 views

Give em hope and then smash em to pieces

17 Comments

YCitizenSnipsYFeb 20, 20162 votes

Yep NA still hasn't figured out Macro play.

Up 7-1 and still behind in gold and towers is inexcusable.

Ale non è maleFeb 20, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Yep NA still hasn't figured out Macro play.

Up 7-1 and still behind in gold and towers is inexcusable.

It is not marco play. It is that no team has put together a consistent performance from start to the finish against IMT...and tbh, it is happening far too times that IMT haven't been punished in NA, BUT in international play...uhm

YCitizenSnipsYFeb 20, 20162 votes

I'm not talking about Immortals Macro play. I'm talking about their opponents. There is no reason to be loosing a game your up 7-1 in kills, especially with a Caitlyn and Orianna and their siege potential.

Immortals is being handed wins by NA teams that have no clue about objectives and wave control. The only thing I agree with is that Immortals is going to get a big wake up call in international competition with teams that don't play this bad.

Ale non è maleFeb 20, 20162 votes

And I was talking about their opponents as well It is not their macro play that is not allowing them to beat IMT, at least at this point when multiple times enemies have just not used the opening IMT gave them It is consistency. Like, we have seen teams putting together stretches of games when they have basically make IMT suffer, then, all of a sudden, without IMT doing some great outplay and not even more than standard plays, just starting to lose not only objectives and such, but even fights for no reason Like, towards the end of the game, REN is sieging the inner mid turret, Crumbz jump in really well on Adrian and almost kill him, but no one follows up and IMT won the fight going through the mid lane with Adrian starting to heal his mates. And you are like "wut, someone flash in and kill Adrian, is not that difficult" That's no macro play or difficult outplay to do in those situation, it is just that the other NA teams can't put together a game from the start to the finish and IMT automatically come out on top

YCitizenSnipsYFeb 20, 20161 votes

RNG's team comp is built to take towers. Caitlyn, Orianna, and Gragas, IMT shouldn't have been able to get near their turrets. They had incredible zone and siege potential, with the plus of a fed Malphite that could engage.

That team was up 7-1 with no turrets to show for it. A team on an international stage wont play this bad.

How can you say that poor macro play is not what is helping Immortals win, look at all the games they were "challenged." TSM and the Baron call, C9 going kill for kill but having no neutral objectives or turrets, RNG up 7-1 on a siege comp with no turrets. IMT is either stomping teams or they are getting by with teams that have no idea on how to play the map.

No NA team is exhibiting good macro play, and that's only going to have the region looking just as bad as last year.

Ale non è maleFeb 20, 20162 votes

{quoted}

RNG's team comp is built to take towers. Caitlyn, Orianna, and Gragas,

WUT? Only Caitlyn can take tower in that comp, unless Malphite got extremely fed AND uses well that advantage - and RF went with that non sense build and farmed in a terrible way to not be actually as much ahead as he should be

The problem is that they win a teamfight first, then play bad for no reason (like Maplhitenot farming an empty top lane when Huni teleported bot)

Obviously IMT HAVE the macro play advantage over the rest of NA teams, no one deny that, but what is really making them undefeated so far is consistency CLG challenged IMT in their game, playing well until a certain point, then does a piur of big mistakes NOT realted to macro play, one times not going back after winning a teamfight bot and allowing IMT to basically equalize a fight that they would have lost hard otherwise, and then the overaggressive Darshan dive on the turret in bot lane, and they lose the game hard at that pont

No NA team has had a consistent game from start to finish against them. No one, even when they got the macro play just fine enough to hang on. This is the core point. The problem when IMT will faace international competition it is not that they'll face teams with good macr play. Tbh, IMT macro play at the moment is around the level of any team around not named Tigers (whaterve their name actually is)...they won't have the nod through that, but would likely not getting outplayed in that facet of the game in a BoX series The problem is that they wil not be sued to face team that can play consistenlty throughout the entirety of the game, so they could just go through a loop when they find themselves behind and unable to comeback, and then possibly losing confidence and go on

YCitizenSnipsYFeb 20, 20161 votes

Try walking near a turret with an Orianna ball under it and a fed malphite. Not to mention the endless Gragas barrels. They had zone for days. There is no reason they couldn't take turrets.

There are multiple teams with even a small grasp on macro could have given IMT a loss. NA just isn't up to par on macro. You say its a problem with consistency, well heres some consistency, bad macro play in NA.

Ale non è maleFeb 20, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Try walking near a turret with an Orianna ball under it and a fed malphite. Not to mention the endless Gragas barrels. They had zone for days. There is no reason they couldn't take turrets.

That was a comp that should have defende turrets, but for taking them...how the hell were they suposed them to do if not through well coordinated dives against IMT waveclear?

I say the problem is consistency, and I stand with that. heck, have you see how the hell went TSM vs C9? After TSM was stomping CP and got the top inhib and the push going I walked away from the computer thinking the game was over, especially after they traded in the chase with TF upon the retire Hai life for Yellowstar one, which was a further win for TSM, and then I come back and I see C9 winning a teamfight and pushing to win the game...like WTF? That is complete clownfiesta, TSM didn't even need to play good at that point to win, they just need to not completely play horribly...and they did. Just like any other NA team has done multiple times in this split including C) this split EU is not in a very good moment, as there is a lot of sloppy play around, but at least there you see consistent games from both teams at times and less of obvious throws. On the other end, in NA, you can never predict if any team all of is going to lose the game by theirselves for no apparent reason, and NA is just getting by because of the superior consistency. Of course, IMT has also a BIG macro play advantage, but you know, they should have racked up 1 loss or 2 at this point if it wasn't for the complete inconsistency of their adversaries

YCitizenSnipsYFeb 21, 20161 votes

"That was a comp that should have defende turrets, but for taking them...how the hell were they suposed them to do if not through well coordinated dives against IMT waveclear?"

Its called Zoning, as in if you enter this zone you are in danger. Cait traps, Ori ball, Malphite and Gragas ult. Its should of been impossible for IMT to stand in front of their towers. They have the ability to force IMT to keep their distance during a siege and instead they look for fights in the jungle.

TSM is an EU team so it looks like there are consistency issues with EU. All jokes aside you can blame consistency but thats not it at all. You can clearly see different styles forming among NA teams, Macro play just isn't something included in those styles. It doesn't matter if any NA team starts to play consistent, name me one team from NA with even average macro play.

Ale non è maleFeb 21, 20161 votes

Did IMT need to enter in the danger zone to defend the towers, though? It was enough for them to send one of their wave clear source in a lane, start a push, a thing they could easily do because of the superior wave clear left in the mid lane, and then return to defend the turret while keep pressure in another lane It was enough for them to put REN in a situation when they had to chose if try to force the dive, or send a guy away to deal with the side lane push, which give IMT the window to start theirselves fight while 5 vs 4 and agaisnt a low output damage team

REN problem was the consistency in their execution, not their game plan

C9, CLG macro isn't horrendous, but their performance haven't really come close consistence wise to IMT ones

Earl EulrichFeb 21, 20161 votes

Tbh, IMT macro play at the moment is around the level of any team around not named Tigers (whaterve their name actually is)...they won't have the nod through that, but would likely not getting outplayed in that facet of the game in a BoX series The problem is that they wil not be sued to face team that can play consistenlty throughout the entirety of the game, so they could just go through a loop when they find themselves behind and unable to comeback, and then possibly losing confidence and go on

What really troubles me is that no team forces IMT to play anything but Janna or Soraka - atm those defensive support picks are what often ensures the "consistency" of IMT throughout the games, as they just make it a lot harder to punish mistakes than other supports. I don´t think they will get away with that vs international teams with decent analysts.

Ale non è maleFeb 21, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Don Eulrich,realm=EUW,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=LRsy5AkF,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2016-02-21T11:30:02.860+0000)

The problem is that they wil not be sued to face team that can play consistenlty throughout the entirety of the game, so they could just go through a loop when they find themselves behind and unable to comeback, and then possibly losing confidence and go on

What really troubles me is that no team forces IMT to play anything but Janna or Soraka - atm those defensive support picks are what often ensures the "consistency" of IMT throughout the games, as they just make it a lot harder to punish mistakes than other supports. I don´t think they will get away with that vs international teams with decent analysts.

Adrian showed he can play Braum, and I'm fairly certain he can put up good performance at leats on a pair of other defensive supports like Ali or one of Thresh/Leona

I think IMT is actually really strong, the problem is that they are not used to face strong teams, and how they will able to respond under pressure without enemy team gifting them easy way to comeback from behind will be the difference between a top team at international level or the "usual" NA team that dominate NA and then suck at international level

Earl EulrichFeb 21, 20161 votes

not saying they are not a strong team, but i would be very carefull getting my hopes up for them being a team that makes it farther than quarters for NA. Right now teams like Rox, QG, H2K and even EDG since they have their old rooster working again look just much more on point.

Also, NA doesn´t really do much laneswapping currently and it will hurt them internationally - i think at MSI we´ll see that everyone once again has to adapt to the european laneswap as it´s just the best way to get a save lead or an even footing midgame in the current meta.

Ale non è maleFeb 21, 20161 votes

IMt is different from most of the top teams NA has produced so far When you look at the teams that historically have dominated at international level, you could immediately spot the 1-2 players that were stomping the NA competition but would have likely suffered/being stomped at international level To not go to much far in time, Zion in S5 that was completelty stomping dudes in NA but his style was fairly suspect and as matter of fact got stomped at Worlds. there were only few exceptions to that, the most notable S4 C9

This IMT roster has no really weak points, at worst a Pobelter would likely lose mid lane but never up to a point when it will lose games for IMT. Except top 2-3 teams you shouldn't count them out against anyove. BUT, they are not proven vs consistent teams, and this is worrying, because if last season must teach something, is that consistency is a key vs international competition because if ou are consistent you can beat almost any team if they got a bad day because of bad match-up/tilting

Laneswap is somethign everyone is doing even in NA, and if anything Eu is not super good in that as Rox or even top chinese teams, thatwill not be likely be the issue

AscendedxBladeFeb 20, 20161 votes

ya but they are very cocky remember C9 in season 3

AscendedxBladeFeb 20, 20161 votes

like i said C9 in season 3 they learned from another region took advantage of it here in NA the NA teams need to step up synergy wins games not get all the best players and ut them on one team and expect the best.

KotexFeb 20, 20161 votes

{quoted}

like i said C9 in season 3 they learned from another region took advantage of it here in NA the NA teams need to step up synergy wins games not get all the best players and ut them on one team and expect the best.

I also remember back in season 4 spring split were C9 lost to complexity most likely due to c9 not respecting them. You could find the game somewhere, but i remember in the first couple minutes c9 tried to 2-3 man dive bot lane and fed every kill and couldnt recover from that