FNC vs Origen, Why Origen pull a win?

[{quoted}](name=Ale non è male,realm=EUW,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=ETM7idWu,comment-id=0003000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-08-26T08:26:07.421+0000)

Ehm, ROCCAT was bottom of EU till the very last weeks, and if you are claiming they are really bad...uhm...I'm sorry but it is not true Barring CW, no team was THAT bad at bottom of Eu standings thorughout the season And the NA problem was more having two mid level EU Challenger teams like T8 and NME rather than TDK problem that basically mirror CW one in EU, so you got for LARGE part of the season T(, NME and sub TDK roster as really cakewalk + C9 heavy struggles before Meteos substitution, so when 4 of 10 teams are consistently bad you can't argue against the fact that the level of competition is very low, especially because not everyone of the 6 remainin team is excellent but 2-3 of them are highly incostant

UoL lost their jungler like 1 week before the end of RS and H0R0 has been a disaster so far, pre Kikis leaving uoL can beat a top 3 team like they did in San Jose and they show by taking pre-MSi Fnatic to 5 games, but the actual UoL of course can't beat a top team until they solve their jungle problem. Put all the things together mean just this, get a new good balance with their new jungler. UoL used to have not only PoE as carry (terrible misinterpretation that a lot of nA fan have), but also Kikis carrying from jungle with Vizi backing them up with consistent and at times spectacular plays on tanky champs- not only Shen, his Poppy play and double kill on Baron pit on Sion ulti are uber famous -, plus Hylissang showing up on certain champs (mainly Morgana that inexplicably he isn't used much in summer PO) to support teams in teamfights This clip being the best example of what i was talking about and the example that you were completely wrong in your assumptions on UoL (Vizi dependent on Shen pick? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL), he has one of the biggest champ pool among Western top laners) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNWtCVQma2M Problem is, there were communication problems between kikis and the team in summer, and then ultimately left, and now they haven't any more that jungler who can consistently carry by staying alive in teamfights long enough to deal considerable amount of damage...and until they don't find a jungler like him (very difficult) or dump Vardags and substitute him with a better ADC (he is clearly the wekest player in the team and not even at his best even more than LCS average) they will have huge problems because, well, Kikis is just top 3-5 jungler in the entire West and his impact on the team was huge. The actual UoL are FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR from the best Uol have ever been this season, and have chemistry issues, it is even "normal" they looked so shabby now. UoL with solved chemistry issues? Can surely beat #3 NA team. ROCCAT is solid, but honestly they lack some talent to fight vs top teams, UoL basicllly beat them by sheer talent even though they looked ugly in the summer

My purpose was never to bash the other regions, in another thread I said how ROC and GIA were two of the 3 worst team qualified for the playoffs between NA and LCS (along side dignitas)...but to try to argue like some NA fans did that NA level wasn't low this summer split, trying to hide the fact that for various reasons 4 teams out of 10 simply sucked for large part of the season, while in Eu there were at most a pair of team really struggling while the other were low in the standings because they just met better competition, well, it is just not looking at the facts. I think NA talent level was higher than what shown for the entire split due to TDk and C9 problems that didn't allow them to express at their best, but there were guys arguing that NA competition was good and the level higher than EU because dignitas had positive record without mentioning that they got it thanks to the record vs the abovementioned team...LOL

Yeah the UOL last split. I wasn't referring to that split, that iteration of UOL could challenge top NA teams no doubt. However, Uol last split and UOL this split look almost like completely different teams at this point. This split even with kikis they struggled, until around his few weeks on the team. Btw, I did not say Vizi was reliant on the shen pick, I said the UOL team was reliant on having him on the shen, at least in playoffs they were. I know the guy has a huge pool of champs and he's a great top laner imo, but that pool wasn't really exploited in playoffs. If you look at just their games with H2k and FNC, 3 of the 6 games he's on shen, half their games with him on it. If he didn't get it, they usually put him on naut. He probably would've played shen in their first game against FNC too, but FNC picked it in the rotation right b4 UOL picked for him, so if that were the case two-thirds of their games against the best teams, they wanted Vizi on Shen. I honestly think Vizi would've performed well or maybe even better on other picks, but UOL wanted him on shen whether he was good on other champions or not. At this time I feel that Vizi and POE are UOL's best players. Vardags is a weak carry, with the exception of his teamfighting, he always seemed good at teamfighting but weak at laning. H0r0 just isn't working, I honestly thought they were going to choose airwaks over him to use in playoffs. Hyli has games where he looks just great, and then games where he just dies alot. If he was a little more consistent, he would probably be the 3rd best support.

When I referred to the bottom of EU, I meant the teams that finished at the bottom, not the bottom throughout the split, but I guess I should've specified that, my bad. By the bottom, I mean the teams that didn't make playoffs. When I look at EL, they just didn't really seem to work well together as a team imo. Froggen still performed well as an individual as he often does. Jwaow or Jwoaw, can't remember the spelling, seemed to have a lot of potential, but it didn't seem like EL was experimenting with him that much. Bottom lane just looked poor, only giants bot looked worse than EL's this split. Most of the time it seemed like they were playing for late game, but couldn't always get there. The only great thing I saw is when they actually got to late game, they usually played well then and could pick up a win. Gambit was a strange team. They had games where they looked like a great contender for playoffs, and then they had games where it seemed like they had no plan at all. They did have that scrim issue earlier in the split where they missed about 2 weeks I believe it was of scrims, but unlike TDK they actually had their full roster when they began scrimming, so in essence they only had to learn the patches and meta and had more time to practice with their entire team. Though forg1ven did screw them at the end by getting banned. CW was just bad with the exception of freeze and airwaks was decent as well.

Sk was different though. Eventhough I wouldn't consider their players great (except svenskeren maybe), but most of them were good or at least decent (except candypanda until late in the split). They also worked really well as a team, and they had great objective control. To me, they looked like a good team, they looked better than el, gmb, cw, and even giants. The problem was that they just couldn't close the game out. That was their major issue, it wasn't getting beaten early game, objectively, or other things so much as it was closing out the game. Now, the fact that they couldn't fix that problem is a bad thing of course, but it felt like that was the only problem holding them back from playoffs in comparison to other teams that I felt had more issues and looked weaker as a team.

But the problem I had with some of the EU fans is that they would just say NA is bad because NA bad. They weren't really giving good reasons and most of the ones that did give reasons referred only to standings, which isn't a good enough reason just on it's own. Yes, I think this was the worst split for NA I've ever witnessed, there's no denying that. The bottom of the table was really bad this split, but I felt like the top of NA was more competitive than last split, though that is attributed partially to all the roster changes and new teams last split. But the fans would say something like "#5 NA team just beat #1 NA, NA terrible" meanwhile LGD (#5 China), beat EDG (#1) and EU doesn't say shit about that, it's only bad cuz it happened in NA which doesn't make sense. Gravity loses to DIG and everyone is like "GV so bad they just lost to DIG, NA so bad". H2k loses to CW after having basically destroyed almost the entirety of wolves's base, but hardly anyone says anything about it, where in GV's case, shiptur got an early penta and it was basically DIG's game to lose from that point. Whether you're the worst team or not, if one of your members gets a penta, you shouldn't lose that game unless you're playing against an extremely high caliber team or you're team was so far behind that the gain from that penta isn't enough to put them back in the game. CLG 0-2 vs TSM makes them bad, but Origen (who I think are stronger than CLG skillwise) 0-2 vs ROC (who I think are weaker than TSM skillwise) is no big deal. Even with that, their standings argument is flawed because Origen and CLG same places and TSM and ROC finished same places. That's the mess that annoys me. If they argued with more reasoning, like for example what you said about the bottom 4 teams playing consistently bad, that's okay because in that case, they use some opinion and some fact to make a point rather than just blindly throwing out facts to say EU > NA and basically saying it's fact without any good reasons to back it up.

P.S. Thanks for linking that vizi clip, I could not remember which game it was, that saves me the effort of looking it up again.