NA is getting better

SuperJediNinja·Oct 11, 2015·29 votes·4,695 views

Especially with the roster changes coming up ! I'm excited for S6

65 Comments

Axis the DragonOct 11, 201512 votes

Season 6 is gonna bring some much needed changes to the NA roster. Let's be honest - while there are a lot of good players, NA has some serious need of young, unpolished talent (Incarnation being one of the first to spearhead that movement). A lot of NA players (Dyrus, Hai, Lemonnation) are retiring/were retired/on the verge of retirement (respectively).

They're gonna need more good shotcallers (currently, Aphromoo and Hai are the only "true" shotcallers that got to Worlds - and even then, that's kind of iffy, considering both of them tilted this week) to supplement their talent.

Another problem is the lack of home-grown players. Look at the difference between NA and EU when it comes to imports:

Jungle: Amazing, Jankos, Svenskeren, Diamondprox -------------- Reignover ADC: Hjarnan, Rekkles, Niels, Forgiven, Candypanda, Freeze Mid: Febiven, Froggen, Pepiinero, xPeke, Nukeduck, PoE ------------- Ryu Support: Yellowstar, KaSing, Mithy, nRated, Hylissang, Gosu Pepper Top: Cabochard, Soaz, Odoamne, Vizi, fedy, Steve, Werlyb ------------- Huni

Jungle: Hai, IWDominate, Xmithie ------------- Rush, Move, Helios, Trashy, Santorin ADC: Sneaky, Dlift, Turtle, Apollo, Altec ------------- Piglet, Emperor, CoreJJ Mid: Gate, Pobelter, Shiphtur, Innox ------------- XiaoWeiXiao, Fenix, Bjergsen, Ninja, Incarnation, Keane Support: Adrian, xpecial, Bunnyfufuu, lemonnation, kiwikid ------------- Lustboy Top: Hauntzer, Zionspartan, Quas, Dyrus, Balls -------------- Impact, Gamsu, Seraph

What does that make NA, then, if a little less than half of their notable pros are all imports?

All told, this upcoming season is most likely going to shake things up. I'm somewhat excited to see how they're going to rebuild C9 and who's gonna be the new toplaner for TSM. Dunno how Liquid is going to pan out, considering xpecial stepped down from the support role. TDK got sent back to Challenger, with Team Coast coming in hot (with a Korean on their roster). Team 8 is also coming back, but with Cali retiring, who knows how they'll pan out.

quasistellarOct 11, 201510 votes

It's a culture thing. I think it's pretty much over for US based LoL players at this point. It kills me to say it, though T_T

The "Lulz e-sports isn't real sports" and "video games are for nerds" culture is still too strong here for enough people to be able to take it seriously.

IcyPepperOct 11, 20151 votes

"video games are for nerds" culture

Aren't most people who say that the ones playing CoD and thus subject to irony? O.o

VerxintOct 11, 20155 votes

No actually the ones saying that are usually 40 year old men sitting in a room watching other men in their 20's run around a field with a ball.

It's no more or less stupid than watching people play video games, but the double standard is stupid.

IcyPepperOct 11, 20152 votes

I don't see why we can't get along.

We argue which team is better, we scream whenever our team scores or gets some victory, and sometimes we have gatherings with pizza and soda and knock everything off the table when there's a game-changing play.

VerxintOct 11, 20153 votes

I agree - it's the same silly entertainment.

But people somehow think that one is less stupid than the other. It's dumb, meaningless entertainment either way.

I'm not going to pretend that watching e-sports is somehow more sophisticated than watching football. The only difference I will claim is that most of those 40 year olds don't play football and possibly never have, while most people watching e-sports play the game as well. But that's not really that big of a deal.

T RexHasTinyArmsOct 11, 20151 votes

Maybe, I think it's more of a money thing though. If e-sports players made what pro sports players make, there would be more kids who spent time trying to become one (and I mean like the kids who go spend time doing skills camps and playing tournament circuits in the summer). Then the US will be a more competitive scene.

I remember reading an interview w/ Faker about his family being hesitant about him signing on w/ skt and they agreed to let him bc the money was a good option for the kid and it really helped the family. I know he probably makes decent money now days, but I would bet heavily that the money offered on a first contract for someone who's never played pro before (and I don't think played am tournaments even) wouldn't be huge money. I'm not saying that KR is poverty stricken or anything, but my bet is that pro gaming salaries are closer to median income in KR than in the US. As long as there isn't money and prestige in it, the top talent in a country is going to be pushed elsewhere. I mean no one ever looked at on line poker and said "holy shit that dude is awesome I bet girls think he's so cool" and dropped out of MIT to chase after being a pro. Instead they dropped out of Ivy league schools bc the money in poker for someone that smart was so good that it often was better than they would get as bankers and industry leaders. Same principle applies here.

quasistellarOct 12, 20151 votes

Oh I have no doubt that if the money were better more people would be doing it. I just think the culture here is the biggest reason.

Ale non è maleOct 12, 20153 votes

Na organizations are richer than Eu one, it's not about the money

T RexHasTinyArmsOct 12, 20151 votes

Sure, but the comparison wasn't NA vs EU esports clubs. Maybe I'm wrong but I would bet a lot of my money that top football clubs in EU pay significantly more than top esports clubs in EU. I am 100% sure that pretty much any major sport in the US pays even bench players better than starters in a lot of esports clubs.

Now yes that is the same in both places, but I would bet you there is more talent in EU aspiring to be football players than esports plays (and by that I mean playing tournaments etc for training rather than just playing pick up games in the park). IMO when esports becomes a bigger financial option then we will start seeing more NA talent, but until then it will be people who are passionate about it and turn it into a career rather than pursuing it as a career to begin with.

Ale non è maleOct 12, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=T RexHasTinyArms,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=EE9LY35k,comment-id=00000000000200010000,timestamp=2015-10-12T20:16:13.765+0000)

Sure, but the comparison wasn't NA vs EU esports clubs. Maybe I'm wrong but I would bet a lot of my money that top football clubs in EU pay significantly more than top esports clubs in EU. I am 100% sure that pretty much any major sport in the US pays even bench players better than starters in a lot of esports clubs.

Now yes that is the same in both places, but I would bet you there is more talent in EU aspiring to be football players than esports plays (and by that I mean playing tournaments etc for training rather than just playing pick up games in the park). IMO when esports becomes a bigger financial option then we will start seeing more NA talent, but until then it will be people who are passionate about it and turn it into a career rather than pursuing it as a career to begin with.

This does not explain why NA level is considerbaly worse than EU one when the financial situation is the same when comparing esports to normal sport though - and I would argue that there are very very few people that could have to make a choice between the two careers... -

Money is not NA problem, not at all

T RexHasTinyArmsOct 12, 20151 votes

Wasn't saying they choose between the two. In the US there are kids who start playing sports in competitive leagues between school seasons when they are really young. Not all of them want to be pros but they want to play in college or be as good as they can or whatever. That doesn't exist for esports here. If there was the money that is in esports that there is in sports and being good at them could get your education paid for at top tier universities, parents would support kids practicing and training and being in competitive e-sports organizations outside of school to train them.

Now maybe the same thing is true in EU, but I would be curious. Do smaller towns and rural areas which may have less economic opportunity still have good internet and play lol? Many of our rural areas don't have good internet so people who may be economically incentivized by the opportunity don't have access. Is a university education expensive in EU and required for most good jobs? If university education isn't expensive then there wouldn't be a shift in focus on e-sports should scholarships become commonly available for them, while there would be such a shift here in NA.

It is very possible that if the value of e-sports rises the skill across all regions will rise and NA will be left behind, however basketball and baseball are very popular in a number of countries other than NA and yet the infrastructure we set up for people who want to get better at that is so good there are still many top NA talents in both of those sports. I don't see any reason why that wouldn't be true for e-sports if it becomes a valuable enough option for NA kids.

Ale non è maleOct 12, 20151 votes

In Eu generally university education is done through public universities which are thus far less expensive than a good american (or UK ) semi private college Neither in NA or in Eu e-sports are really a primary option for kids future, tbh That's why I'm telling you money is not the issue. It is an issue if you do an Asian vs West reasoning, but in a Na vs Eu comparison, there is no real difference as far as mone and "valuable future option for kids" goes (heck, Na e-sports organizations are probably richer than Eu one)

PoisonedTeaOct 11, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Axis the Dragon,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=EE9LY35k,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-10-11T17:41:13.118+0000)

Season 6 is gonna bring some much needed changes to the NA roster. Let's be honest - while there are a lot of good players, NA has some serious need of young, unpolished talent (Incarnation being one of the first to spearhead that movement). A lot of NA players (Dyrus, Hai, Lemonnation) are retiring/were retired/on the verge of retirement (respectively).

They're gonna need more good shotcallers (currently, Aphromoo and Hai are the only "true" shotcallers that got to Worlds - and even then, that's kind of iffy, considering both of them tilted this week) to supplement their talent.

Another problem is the lack of home-grown players. Look at the difference between NA and EU when it comes to imports: ADC: Hjarnan, Rekkles, Niels, Forgiven, Candypanda, Freeze Mid: Febiven, Froggen, Pepiinero, xPeke, Nukeduck, PoE ------------- Ryu Support: Yellowstar, KaSing, Mithy, nRated, Hylissang, Gosu Pepper Top: Cabochard, Soaz, Odoamne, Vizi, fedy, Steve, Werlyb ------------- Huni

vs ADC: Sneaky, Dlift, Turtle, Apollo, Altec ------------- Piglet, Emperor, CoreJJ Mid: Gate, Pobelter, Shiphtur, Innox ------------- XiaoWeiXiao, Fenix, Bjergsen, Ninja, Incarnation, Keane Support: Adrian, xpecial, Bunnyfufuu, lemonnation, kiwikid ------------- Lustboy Top: Hauntzer, Zionspartan, Quas, Dyrus, Balls -------------- Impact, Gamsu, Seraph

What does that make NA, then, if a little less than half of their notable pros are all imports?

All told, this upcoming season is most likely going to shake things up. I'm somewhat excited to see how they're going to rebuild C9 and who's gonna be the new toplaner for TSM. Dunno how Liquid is going to pan out, considering xpecial stepped down from the support role. TDK got sent back to Challenger, with Team Coast coming in hot (with a Korean on their roster). Team 8 is also coming back, but with Cali retiring, who knows how they'll pan out.

But EU should import more. Mostly the Bot lane.

What weird about NA is that they sometimes import on the strengths rather the weaknesses. But EU rarely imports at all even when some area's have clear weaknesses. (language of coarse is a bigger issue in EU than NA)

Axis the DragonOct 11, 20151 votes

Apart from Candypanda (who's pretty consistent, but has a lower skill ceiling than the others), all the ADCs on that list are world class though

Hjarnan has some decision making issues but he can handle his own

Rekkles and Niels are both central to their own teams

If Forgiven can stop raging and tilting (and getting banned for it), he's one of the top ADCs in the LCS

Freeze is inconsistent, I'll give you that, but put him with a reliable team and he can go far

Yellowstar is definitely world class

Mithy is also really important on Origen

KaSing is like 60% of the reason H2K even made it out of the spring split alive, and a pretty big part of their climb to 3rd in EU

NA has very similar issues, though, I must agree

Most of the ADCs are inconsistent (Sneaky, Turtle) or not world class (Apollo, CoreJJ). Haven't seen enough from Emperor to really make a consolidated opinion on him. Those that are good (Doublelift, Piglet Altec) have other issues they have to fix (Piglet's prone to tilting, for example)

There are good supports, but some of them are older and are on the verge of retirement (Lemonnation), prone to bad decision making when under pressure (Aphromoo), or just need a more stable team (Adrian - XwX being banned pretty much destroyed their chances at Worlds- and Lustboy -Turtle has really high highs and really low lows, Dyrus is retiring, Santorin is sometimes nonexistent)

PoisonedTeaOct 11, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Axis the Dragon,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=EE9LY35k,comment-id=000000010000,timestamp=2015-10-11T20:06:42.121+0000)

Apart from Candypanda (who's pretty consistent, but has a lower skill ceiling than the others), all the ADCs on that list are world class though

Hjarnan has some decision making issues but he can handle his own

Rekkles and Niels are both central to their own teams

If Forgiven can stop raging and tilting (and getting banned for it), he's one of the top ADCs in the LCS

Freeze is inconsistent, I'll give you that, but put him with a reliable team and he can go far

Yellowstar is definitely world class

Mithy is also really important on Origen

KaSing is like 60% of the reason H2K even made it out of the spring split alive, and a pretty big part of their climb to 3rd in EU

NA has very similar issues, though, I must agree

Most of the ADCs are inconsistent (Sneaky, Turtle) or not world class (Apollo, CoreJJ). Haven't seen enough from Emperor to really make a consolidated opinion on him. Those that are good (Doublelift, Piglet Altec) have other issues they have to fix (Piglet's prone to tilting, for example)

There are good supports, but some of them are older and are on the verge of retirement (Lemonnation), prone to bad decision making when under pressure (Aphromoo), or just need a more stable team (Adrian - XwX being banned pretty much destroyed their chances at Worlds- and Lustboy -Turtle has really high highs and really low lows, Dyrus is retiring, Santorin is sometimes nonexistent)

Rekkles the best ADC in EU is not world class.

Yellowstar is world class. No other EU supports can compare to him.

That doesn't mean that some of these guys do have merit. But when you look past the top guys in these roles in EU you have a dramatic skill drop.

World class ADC's in EU ya right.

Axis the DragonOct 12, 20151 votes

Mm yeah I suppose Yellowstar's leadership and Febiven's raw skill are what keeps Fnatic afloat. Group B wasn't exactly the hardest group bottom-lane-wise either. Though all told, I feel like Rekkles and Niels just need more experience.

Mithy and KaSing may not be world class, but they're pretty damn important for their teams (KaSing basically is H2K). xD

And honestly, the only thing stopping Forgiven from being world class is attitude, imo. He has the raw skill and mechanics - he just needs to not be on tilt when he makes decisions and he can probably at least survive at Worlds :o

SilmäOct 11, 20153 votes

I'm having a hunch they'll rebuild TSM too, keep bjergsen and lustboy, find a new top, fire everybody else, including locodoco. Boom next year's NA superstar team. Loco just haven't brought anything new to the team, he's just the 6th person Bjergsen is carrying.

OnegarionOct 11, 20151 votes

This worlds Lustboy has reminded me a lot of Xpecial this past season. Both were getting caught a ton where they shouldn't have been and were big factors in losing for their teams. I would personally like to see lustboy go if you really want to up the team.

TSM has a new top laner they need to get and after that you can see how they look to see how important Dyrus really was for the team. Then i would look at the field and the free agents and look to replace Lustboy and Santorin first. Wildturtle has been faltering, but he was doing fine until xpecial left. After that he really started doing bad. The combo worked really well and gleeb and lustboy just don't seem to work with turtle. I think Turtle has had a higher upside that lustboy and thats where I'd make my change.

SilmäOct 11, 20151 votes

Lustboy had a horrible tournament, but i still think he has what it takes.

While i love Dyrus, the legend himself, but tbh he was the weakpoint of TSM, and probably the worst player @ worlds this season, and comming in to the worlds in a toplane meta patch, im pretty sure no one was suprised TSM finished last. Wildturtle and Santorin are both just average players, nothing to hold on to. Loco? well he brought nothing to the team.

So, ofcourse keep bjergsen, probably one of the best mid's in the world, and start building the team around him, with players that can acctuly hold their own and go a bit past that.

Axis the DragonOct 11, 20151 votes

I think they can keep Turtle if they can find a support that meshes well with him. When he plays well, he can compete evenly against Doublelift and Piglet.

Santorin is an odd case. He's just so... average. Compared to other junglers, anyway.

bauspanda2Oct 12, 20151 votes

the problem with Santorin is that bjergsen is aggressive and he is passive

Axis the DragonOct 12, 20151 votes

Santorin isn't passive, he's sometimes damn near nonexistent. There's a reason why when people joke about Junglers going 0/0/0 they say they pulled off a Santorin (hence the hate Kakao got when he didn't do anything in one game)

GelsominoKillerOct 12, 20151 votes

As an European i sincerely dont understand why you keep considering Turtle a weak element in TSM. To me he's the best ADC NA has got, and the major driving force in the team (yes, even more that bjers). I was astonished to the intention of replacing him some time ago. More than anything i dont get how you can watch his performance and call him weak. His champ poll is small, but that's it.

deehoodOct 12, 20152 votes

I definitely wouldn't place him as a T1 adc. Not even close to Sneaky's level.

bauspanda2Oct 12, 20151 votes

personally, I think that the only thing that they can keep is bjergsen and maybe turtle with a different support. Lustboy doesn't English, Santorin is too passive, dyrus is retiring, and loco just kinda sucks.

Earl EulrichOct 11, 20152 votes

IF NA is lucky though Renegades will make a huge impact on the league, just like OG in Europe - as Alex is kind of the other allstar of EU-mid alongside Peke; if they manage to come in with a good roster (keeping remillia, either getting RF to really step up or tracking down megazero whereever that guy´s hiding + bringing steelback onboard if mapple wants to leave) they might be able to bring some needed fresh spirit to the NALCS.

Axis the DragonOct 12, 20151 votes

Steelback is a sub for Gambit, though. Don't think he can leave until his contract expires. =/

Idk who megazero is lol

Earl EulrichOct 12, 20151 votes

Steelback played for IMG in the NACS this summer, so he should be a free agent.

Megazero had been playing top for MRN in S3 and also won the Best Riven NA tournament in that year...probably the most talented Carry-top NA has seen so far.

Axis the DragonOct 12, 20151 votes

Perhaps. I didn't really pay attention to the CS though xD

And I didn't watch that, but seeing that he beat dudes like Cris, Boxbox, best riven NA, zionspartan... I wonder how he'd fare against wingsofdeathx, who was also known for his riven play

Earl EulrichOct 12, 20151 votes

Perhaps. I didn't really pay attention to the CS though xD

mh, i personally found the NA CS more enjoyable than the LCS last season - they had really good competition of the top 4 teams (and a lot more spirit than most of the LCS-teams).

SolumindraOct 12, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Axis the Dragon,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=EE9LY35k,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-10-11T17:41:13.118+0000)

Season 6 is gonna bring some much needed changes to the NA roster. Let's be honest - while there are a lot of good players, NA has some serious need of young, unpolished talent (Incarnation being one of the first to spearhead that movement). A lot of NA players (Dyrus, Hai, Lemonnation) are retiring/were retired/on the verge of retirement (respectively).

They're gonna need more good shotcallers (currently, Aphromoo and Hai are the only "true" shotcallers that got to Worlds - and even then, that's kind of iffy, considering both of them tilted this week) to supplement their talent.

Another problem is the lack of home-grown players. Look at the difference between NA and EU when it comes to imports: ADC: Hjarnan, Rekkles, Niels, Forgiven, Candypanda, Freeze Mid: Febiven, Froggen, Pepiinero, xPeke, Nukeduck, PoE ------------- Ryu Support: Yellowstar, KaSing, Mithy, nRated, Hylissang, Gosu Pepper Top: Cabochard, Soaz, Odoamne, Vizi, fedy, Steve, Werlyb ------------- Huni

vs ADC: Sneaky, Dlift, Turtle, Apollo, Altec ------------- Piglet, Emperor, CoreJJ Mid: Gate, Pobelter, Shiphtur, Innox ------------- XiaoWeiXiao, Fenix, Bjergsen, Ninja, Incarnation, Keane Support: Adrian, xpecial, Bunnyfufuu, lemonnation, kiwikid ------------- Lustboy Top: Hauntzer, Zionspartan, Quas, Dyrus, Balls -------------- Impact, Gamsu, Seraph

What does that make NA, then, if a little less than half of their notable pros are all imports?

All told, this upcoming season is most likely going to shake things up. I'm somewhat excited to see how they're going to rebuild C9 and who's gonna be the new toplaner for TSM. Dunno how Liquid is going to pan out, considering xpecial stepped down from the support role. TDK got sent back to Challenger, with Team Coast coming in hot (with a Korean on their roster). Team 8 is also coming back, but with Cali retiring, who knows how they'll pan out.

I really don't think Korean imports are the answer though. (Refering to a team coming in hot with a Korean...) Almost every team that brought in a Korean import didn't really improve. Team liquid has still been placing 4th even with a world class ADC, or former world class ADC. Lustboy doesn't even look as good as Aphromoo, especially this past split. There is NA talent however there is this stigma around using it, for whatever reason.

Axis the DragonOct 12, 20151 votes

That's exactly what I mean - EU has been notorious for doing much better than NA on average (except Season 4, but that wasn't exactly a fair comparison) despite having like, little to no imports in general, much less Korean ones. Sure, Huni and Reignover are good, but the main reason FNC is doing so well is because of Yellowstar and Febiven.

Meanwhile, NA is full of imports from EU and Asia. And the top teams (minus CLG, who's only "real" import, Huhi, isn't on the main roster) all have at least 1 import that they rely on (TSM has Bjergsen and Santorin, C9 has Incarnation, Liquid has Piglet and Fenix, TiP has Rush, Impact and XiaoWeiXiao, Gravity have Keane and Move, etc.)

As has been mentioned before, arguably the best player in NA is from EU (Bjergsen). xD Incarnation has really been stepping up, too. The NA MVP was Rush, Gravity would never have won as much as they did without Move, so on and so forth.

I feel like the "Stigma" is really just them not wanting to go pro. One of the best Challenger Top-lane players, wingsofdeathx, doesn't want to join a team. Shame, really, since NA really lacks toplane talent.

Ale non è maleOct 12, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Axis the Dragon,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=EE9LY35k,comment-id=000000040000,timestamp=2015-10-12T19:46:10.413+0000)

I feel like the "Stigma" is really just them not wanting to go pro. One of the best Challenger Top-lane players, wingsofdeathx, doesn't want to join a team. Shame, really, since NA really lacks toplane talent.

Nah, that's an excuse The only notable player that didn't want to go pro and basically played one season only to help his mates was CaliTrolz The other are guys that are earning a lot through streaming and know that they would earn less in pro scene because they would not be good enough to compete at top level and would lose reputation, fan base, and streaming money through a bad pro career wingsofdeatx was actually a pro in S2 on TSM Evo and it went pretty bad

Axis the DragonOct 12, 20151 votes

Perhaps, though it's still a shame. Mash joined Coast, who's coming into the NA LCS next Spring, and Aphromoo joined CLG to some success.

Ale non è maleOct 12, 20151 votes

Wait wait wait Aphro tried to chase a pro career, in a parallel way to his streaming career - like a lot of players do, for example Froggen -, and it is the same for Mash These guys always wanted to go pro, and in the mean time they also put together a good streaming career

The whole narrative that best Na players wouldn't want to go pro is just non existent, as the only notable exception is Calitrolz...the reality is that there isn't a very deep talent pool of players ready to potentially play at pro level

Axis the DragonOct 12, 20151 votes

I suppose. Why do you think that is ? Maybe a culture thing? Gaming being looked down upon as a viable way of making a living makes it so not enough people really try to dedicate themselves to playing better? Idk. It's true that NA has a shallow talent pool, though, especially mid and top.

Ale non è maleOct 12, 20151 votes

It's not culture It is just, what is the path of a team that wants to go pro? You got to first try to be the best in your zone, then you got to beat the teams at a better level than that in bigger tournaments, then you got to proceed to beat the team near the top of the ladder to try to have a chance to play in CS qualifier, no?

In EU, every country, even the lesser one in e-Sports, has those 1-2 org that try to win their own national tournaments, and try to regroup the best players in the country. So, you get those pair of more of teams for every country that has 1-2 Challanger, and the other players floating between Masters and high D1. You got to be those other teams of a similar level, and to beat those teams you got to be about a top 25-30 teamsd in Challanger ranked. Then, you try to go up to see if you can go further in going pro, so you got to beat all this cluster of national level organizations with those teams with a level about top 25-30 in the ladder, and land around top 15, let's say. At that point, if you want to reach CS qualifier, you got to consistently beat those top 15 teams to get more points and get in a position to play Cs qualifier, and you got to beat those other semi-pro teams around Eu that are trying to do the same This means, that even since doing the first babystep moves in amateur/semi-pro teams, you have to face a tough competition to get up in the rankings, and so when these teams get up to CS/LCS, they are yet proven from high level competition, and can also pick up some of the best players forged by the same competition from some minor teams that can be ready to go

When I think about America, what some team of a lesser e-sport region(excluding things like California and Texas) like Arkansas or Ohio or Nebraska need to be the best in their region? I guess you need a pair of D1-D2 players and a bunch of mid Diamond level players I guess? So, if you want to go up in the ladder, instyead of beating team amde by masters/d1 players, you got to beat teams made by D2-D3 players, and the fact that you got to face lower level competition at the start of a possible path of pro amplify itself as much as you go high in the ranking, as play vs D2-3 players doesn't challenge you to improve as much as beatig Masters/d1 players, and so on, with the final results that when you get at the door of true professionism (cs and LCS), you have gone through a selection process against a far weaker opposition than what a team in Eu had to go through - not even mentioning China and Korea where things are on a completely different level - , and so it ends up that pro teams have a far smaller and weaker player pool upon which select player for their teams

bauspanda2Oct 12, 20151 votes

I actually find their mid talent pool to be stronger than many other regions if you include imports. Na has Bjerg, Incarnation, Pobelter, xiaowexaio, keane, and fenix to Eu's peke, ryu, febiven, and Poe. (I don't include froggen because elements is so bad and I think that he is declining.)

Ale non è maleOct 12, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I actually find their mid talent pool to be stronger than many other regions if you include imports. Na has Bjerg, Incarnation, Pobelter, xiaowexaio, keane, and fenix to Eu's peke, ryu, febiven, and Poe. (I don't include froggen because elements is so bad and I think that he is declining.)

Eu also has Nukeduck, Pepii, and Froggen is not declining that much individually, so i don't see how you can put NA mid pool talent above Eu, despite NA not being ovareall bad counting imports

bauspanda2Oct 13, 20151 votes

Personally I don't think that pepi is that good, but froggen isn't quite carrying his teams like he used to and I straight up forgot about nukeduck.

Ale non è maleOct 13, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Personally I don't think that pepi is that good, but froggen isn't quite carrying his teams like he used to and I straight up forgot about nukeduck.

Pepii literaly kept Giants in LCS alone for an entire year as the rest of the team is kinda bad for EU LCS standards, he is really good, even though he is a bit like Westdoor in the way he is top notch almost exclusively on assassins and suffer when the meta does not favour them (I think because he is literaly forced to be used to carry his mates) Froggen isn't at his peak for various reasons, but individual skills haven't deteriorated till the point that he has to be considered worse than most of the guy you have quoted for Na mid scene, he is not worse than keane or fenix

Eu mid lane has higher quality and more depth than NA even including imports for NA (and i would add that Soren and Fox were better than bottom of the tier NA LCS mid too and they just got caught in the midst of CW and Sk situations)

bauspanda2Oct 15, 20151 votes

Fenix is better than froggen only if he is on azir. In a meta where azir is relevant, I would want fenix as my mid laner to say "ban azir or lose." It s like bjerg in an assassin meta "ban zed and leblanc or lose."

Ale non è maleOct 15, 20151 votes

Aaaand? I think fenix is a good player, and it is fair you could want him as your mid laner in a certain meta, but that's not the point There is no reason why you can claim that Na mid lane talent pool is stronger and deeper than Eu, mentioning fenix as good mid laner for NA and not mentioning Froggen as good mid laner for EU And even worse, mentioning keane for NA, and not mentioning froggen for EU!!!! I mean, at least fenix in my ranking is top 4 NA mid laner, and not too much far awy from number 3, but keane was just 1-2 patch woner and then regressed to a level considerably below the other guys mentioned for both EU and NA

I'm not even a froggen fan, I actually think he is the main reason why the post KaBum Allance then renamed Elements are struggling because of his attitude, but as far as individual skill goes you can't dismiss him yet while praising fenix and especially keane

Also, xiaoweixiao was banned and is likely gone now for NA

Mid lane is one of the lanes where NA can actually compete with the rest of the world with their best guys, especially relatively to the situation of other roles like top and jungler (and TSm replaced both, with C9 probably doing the same)..but Eu is actually better even on mid lane

Axis the DragonOct 12, 20152 votes

That's exactly my point. Exclude the imports. What's left?

...

Exactly. Damn near no one. Innox? I mean, he's alright, but he ain't no Keane, or XwX, or Pobelter.

EU have Febiven, Pepii, Nukeduck, xpeke, PoE. Betsy isn't that bad. Fox is alright.

AdenomeningealOct 12, 20155 votes

You can't just bring in more big names to fill up the gap. NA has been doing that quite a while now, either grabbing big upcoming talents ( bjergsen, incarnation ) or just big stars ( impact, piglet ) no matter what, it doesn';t work.

It's not about the names, it's about the fundamentals how the game is playd. It's flawed in NA. I don't know why, but the macro play is insanely slow in NA. Anticipation is.. awful..

OG vs TSM. TSM had no idea what to do with a lead. It's always like that.

NA used to be an emulating region in the past. There used to be a saying back in the day "EU invents the picks, Asia perfects it, NA copies it " And my feeling with all the emulating is that you're at least always 1 step behind, and mostly you don't think for yourself. Watching TSM play for example its like they are emulating the early game and then when they have to anticipate it goes all wrong. They can't think.

And quite honestly I'd have no idea on how to fight this. If we look at bjergsen, great player but his talent is basicly destroyd now. Great in lane now doubt, decent mehcanics ( internationally compared ) but horrible macro and shotcalling. The emphasis is on teamplay more than ever, this is the time for regions that are micro-play inferior to catch up.

I.. just dont what's supposed to happen, bringing in more players doesnt mean just plain more quality or things turn out better, hell it might even be worse.

Earl EulrichOct 12, 20151 votes

well, i think the Challenger-scene might be the solution there. LMQ actually did a lot for NA when they came in, showing real aggression and the will to close out games to the league. Their sort of successor TIP right now is maybe the only team in the NA LCS that is consistently able to play their own game and force opponents into mistakes rather than just playing passive and wait for mistakes (i still think without losing XWX they would have made a good showing for NA in worlds). with Renegades coming in you´ll get the mastermind of M5 on board, if they manage to find good replacments for the ones leaving they also can have a huge impact on the league. And even the Challenger teams that didn´t make it this season showed a lot more promise towards wanting to play league to win the game by their own strength, not to wait it out...so i think they would be enough talent available, if NA finally is willing to give it a chance instead of just going for the "save" way and buying in some names from beyond the sea.

quasistellarOct 12, 20151 votes

I agree. Part of the US region's problem (this season) is that it seems like they leave their top laners high and dry, or just plain don't know how to utilize them.

College DebtsOct 11, 20152 votes

This is our worst season, I don't want to say it, but there are a lot of mediocre players in every team for the three teams that went to worlds. I expect a huge roster change after S5 worlds. A lot of veterans will be gone next year, we will see a lot of new blood.

C9 went into worlds with a single strategy. When you use the same strategy 3 times (Azir fast push), you would expect teams to expose and counter your strategy at any time, so you have to have something up your sleeves, but no let's not change up our play style. As for CLG and TSM, I don't even know what strategies they had to begin with, no, wait til late game and let Bjerg carry is NOT a viable strategy at worlds. TSM is in a tough group I understand, CLG screwed up super hard I have no words. Hope they fix these issues.

Axis the DragonOct 12, 20151 votes

CLG choking coupled with Flash Wolves REALLY stepping up just meant they had no chance. xD