Riot's official response to the community after the sandbox backlash

SuperJediNinja·Aug 6, 2015·126 votes·6,729 views

Thoughts?

67 Comments

YOLO420SWAGSCOPEAug 7, 201513 votes

Smite has sandbox mode where you're the only person playing and you get to test your god's abilities and new builds against minions and bots with 100,000 starting gold

rito should be taking notes

ModAcademy KaynAug 8, 20151 votes

But that's all you have. Gold and Exp gain. What smite has for league might be a lot better, but what people want is different. They want to say use flash, and have it available 5 seconds after wards, or things like that.

j jAug 8, 20151 votes

Which shouldn't be hard to implement at all or cost much especially if it's just limited to custom games. It would definitely increase the incentive for people to create custom games, so they may have to adjust more servers to that but that's only an assumption who would really know long term how much stress it would put on the servers. Minor increases in my opinion but with all the revenue generated I can't see it being a downfall at all. Especially since most people would be enticed to experiment on league and take their ideas into games thus increasing their willingness to play / buy things.

videorfeakAug 7, 201512 votes

This made my day

WullfAug 7, 201510 votes

Comon this is just offensive to Riot.

While there are very real skills one can develop in a hyperbolic time chamber, we never want that to be an expectation added onto an already high barrier to entry

This is what I read in "Rito pls" and I think it is really good point and from this point I also dont want to have sandbox. Though I believe that there could be some solution of restricted sandbox similar to the one in Heroes of the storm.

CaelerAug 7, 201535 votes

The problem with that is that the only alternative to sandbox mode is playing real games or customs. In real games there isn't much leeway to experiment. You can't test out builds because people might call you a troll and ruin your experience and you can't easily practice your combos. While this is somewhat more possible to do in customs, it's still a massive timesink. If you want to try out builds you're going to have to farm for at least 30+ minutes. If you want to swap to an entirely different build you're going to have to farm for probably another 15 or so minutes to make up the gold you lose by selling your items. This isn't even including the fact that if you want to swap to a different champion you're going to have to restart the entire thing again.

What about changing the in game times? What if you want to practice power spikes? At the moment, players have to restart every time they pass that power spike. And what if the champion only spikes really late into the game? Are you really going to waste 40 minutes just to practice that power spike for a couple of minutes?

Combos can't be easily practiced because of mana and cooldowns. Want to practice flashing over walls or using combos involving flash? Tough luck, you're going to have to wait five minutes. Want to practice a combo using your ult? Tough luck, you're going to have to wait anywhere from one to three minutes. Want to practice combos on a champion with high mana costs? Sorry, you're out of mana.

Despite what Riot may say, a sandbox mode would have no impact on a "high barrier to entry" nor would it become an expectation of all players. The only players who would be 'expected' to use sandbox mode are players who are just trying to practice and improve. Other players probably wouldn't touch it unless they wanted to try out something or were bored. If new players used sandbox mode, they would still fall under the former category of players trying to improve. They wouldn't have to play through hundreds of games with diamond smurfs just to improve. They could learn in one hour what might take a normal player ten to twenty. The barrier to entry would probably even shrink because sandbox mode would make it easier for new players to practice and learn the game.

Riot has no reason to refuse to make sandbox mode. The game instantly becomes much easier to learn for new players, thus bringing in a greater amount of new players and decreasing the amount of new players dropping out of the game. Pros gain an easy way to develop their skills and run drills which results in better play and more fierce competition. This naturally leads to more entertaining games and therefore more money for Riot.

Riot favors practice through play rather than through training. They state that they don't want to see players hopping into sandbox mode when they want to practice. They want players to play the game normally. This is the equivalent of the NBA not wanting to see teams doing practice sessions. Professional basketball players shouldn't have to practice to improve because they can just play the game normally.

Riot fears players will be 'obligated' to hit sandbox mode whenever they want to practice. This is some very ignorant thinking. No matter how much you practice something, you need to be able to do it in a realistic environment. If they can't do the same things to real players then the practice is meaningless. By playing real games players put what they've been practicing into action. Players can practice all they want in sandbox mode but that practice needs to be backed up by experience. A skill can be practiced in sandbox mode but it needs to be perfected against real players. Riot's fears are unwarranted.

Eevee In A JarAug 7, 20151 votes

STAFOO it's not that their fears are unwarranted. THey simply don't want to waste the effort and money on something that they aren't sure about as opposed to investing in something that they know will generate revenue. It's dumb using NBA as an example. First of all, that analogy doesn't work because media covers practice sessions and the like with journalists. They have every reason to refuse sandbox mode. I'm guessing you just don't understand how difficult all this stuff is and how much it costs. Who's going to fund it? You? Cough up the money and the department of devs who will do it, manage it, maintain it, and keep it going. All the while continuing to pay them. Sometimes I wonder how old you guys are. This is basic business 101. As much as they like us fans and want our advice, their priority is money. It's why they came together as a company. It's why they focus a lot on skins and revenue generating themes. You can romanticize the reasons however you want but at the end of the day, if there is no money there is no incentive to continue this game at all.

The best ways businesses make profit and get wealthier is by saving money instead of recklessly spending it, which is what sandbox mode supporters are essentially asking for. It's like bunch of little kids who want sugary sweets before dinner and crying harder and harder.

CaelerAug 7, 20154 votes

First of all, that analogy doesn't work because media covers practice sessions and the like with journalists.

No, it's the same situation. The players are being told they can't practice because playing should be the 'unequivocal best way for a player to improve.' The only real difference is that NBA players could just practice anyways because their practice doesn't require the NBA to set anything up for them. They can just shoot free throws at their house or a park. They could also run drills pretty easily. League players don't have this freedom. There is no easy way to set up methods of practice. If they don't give us a way to practice outside of playing, then we can't expect to improve as quickly because the system limits what we can do. Your comment about the media is irrelevant because it has nothing to do with what I'm talking about.

I'm guessing you just don't understand how difficult all this stuff is and how much it costs. Who's going to fund it? You? Cough up the money and the department of devs who will do it, manage it, maintain it, and keep it going.

There are people doing it for free because Riot has refused to do anything. The way this one is setup is that the player hosts the server for the sandbox and connects to their own server. The people who made it don't have to maintain anything except patches. It doesn't cost them any money to let people use it. Furthermore, Riot already has a sandbox-type of server at their headquarters. This is very obvious if you watch any of the champion spotlights.

As much as they like us fans and want our advice, their priority is money. It's why they came together as a company. It's why they focus a lot on skins and revenue generating themes. You can romanticize the reasons however you want but at the end of the day, if there is no money there is no incentive to continue this game at all.

Did you miss the part where I talked about greater player retention and a better competitive scene? Both would directly contribute to Riot's income.

More players = more money. Better competition = better entertainment = more money.

WheatloafAug 7, 20157 votes

TL;DR:

"We have a lot of shit to work on, and we decided sandbox mode isn't exactly the most important thing ever, so we're working on other things first. We should have said that in the first place instead of coming across as pompous assholes, but we fucked that up. We might even have fucked up our priority, people really seem to want this mode. We'll look into it again and try not to make dipshits of ourselves too much more in the future."

This is essentially what their response was, and I don't understand what's so terrible about it :s

Dextix LTAug 7, 20156 votes

Because their original response showed just how much they care about the community and its wishes. And because their original response was full of bullshit and lies, outright lies which treated us, the community as stupid enough to believe that shit.

Meep ManAug 7, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dextix LT,realm=EUNE,application-id=Ir7ZrJjF,discussion-id=VXb2mkYh,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2015-08-07T05:26:37.518+0000)

Because their original response showed just how much they care about the community and its wishes. And because their original response was full of bullshit and lies, outright lies which treated us, the community as stupid enough to believe that shit.

You are treated like you act. Over 75% of the boards is rage complaining and idiotic complaining with no support for their argument. Any support provided is usually ignorant as well. Not saying the community is bad, but... it can be immature.

Dextix LTAug 7, 20154 votes

I dont know on which boards you are writting love, but the community did make arguments and complained about issues that are important. The ccommunity is not immature. We are accting in a way that riot hears us.

Before, when riot still wasnt a big company, we could have had good and polite conversations because they actually listened to our feedback. Now they dont give a shit and the only way to get their attention is to shout in their ear long enough for them to hear us.

Was it ignorant of us to ask for a training mode and replay system? Was that ignorant of us????

Ferus and FerrumAug 7, 20152 votes

Not at all. What's ignorant are the babyrage posts, and the ever abundant "Rito please" mentality. People get the feeling that just because they get coerced into buying skins that riot owes them something. The sense of entitlement I read in the vast majority of the QQ posts is ridiculous. Because of all this Riot has a hard time distinguishing people who are whining from people with actual criticisms. When champs get reworked, the only people who are incredibly vocal are the people who are pissing and moaning about the changes, no matter how overwhelmingly positive they may be.

People just complain, in large volume, about anything and everything. They want it all their way, and they don't want to wait. If riot makes them wait for gameplay changes or functionality changes they get ridiculed. The balance team has to deal with trying to make champions fair, not just immediately, but for the foreseeable future so that there aren't a million nerfs or buffs coming out every patch. Champion update team has to deal with taking the champions we know and love and make them better without spawning a massive angry mob outside of Riot headquarters. So many people bitched about Sion. Some actually complained about Ashe's lack of free crit and loss of gold revenue. Don't get me started on the polarization of the community on the GP changes. Fiora is just the current subject of controversy.

This is what makes it hard for riot to listen. This is what makes balancing such a challenge. "Don't nerf my freelo plz" or "New Fiora sucks" aren't constructive comments or suggestions, and they flood the boards, and the youtube comments, and the reddit posts. Riot isn't perfect, the people who balance the game aren't perfect, the people who create new content aren't perfect. Yet, we the people, who are both toxic and non-toxic, who feed, carry, and flame and encourage, are all so different in what we want for ourselves in the game that we forget that nothing is perfect. Riot as a company has its own intentions for the direction of League of Legends, and when that doesn't match up with the greater desires of the playerbase the entitled and spoiled brats in the community start to show, and they overwhelm the people that want to have positive and meaningful conversation. Their views are absolute, they are jus there to complain without opening up to an alternate perspective.

It isn't ignorant to ask for certain things from the company. What's ignorant is to demand these things and accuse the company of not caring about its playerbase after they have explained their rationale and priorities. At that point, you aren't voicing your opinion. You're just being childish. At the end of the day Riot has all the say when it comes to these things, but that doesn't keep them from communicating with the community about their ideas. And no, it doesn't always work out for the best but that's what riot tries to learn from. They still have a long way to go though

Dextix LTAug 7, 20151 votes

The good updates received really little resistance. The bad ones received many. Do you think everyone should be glad with the half assed cass rework we got? Do you think everyone should be happy that fiora looked like fcking michael jackson? Simple people not working at riot made better things and suggestions to replace these.

Also, have you see What riot said about the training mode? You know why it caused such an uproar. Because that rationale was bullshit, this time even fcking pros, the highest tier of LOL players were complaining! Why? Because even a fcking autist could see that what riot said was nothing more than bullshit! They talk about grinding when their WHOLE GAME IS ABOUT GRINDING! They said that training mode would actually encourage toxicity! And we should not fcking say anything about that????

Have you seen the patch rundown of 5.16? We should be happy with that????

Look i have a really good question. If hitler explained his rationale and priorities would fighting against him would be being childish? Its the same fcking case! Just because you explain something doesnt mean its a good thing!

Ferus and FerrumAug 8, 20151 votes

I never said shit about everyone being happy. Riot isn't going to make everyone happy. Also the "good" vs "bad" updates is a matter of perspective. I know plenty of people who were just fine with the Cass rework, and the Soraka rework. I'm personally fine with fiora's new bounding gait. I like it even. So by my sense of entitlement, I feel entitled to Riot keeping it the same. See how stupid that sounds to you. I've seen plenty of the other suggestions people have made, some are practical, more are just overloaded kits and idiotic mechanics. Once again a matter of perspective. I like the Darius rework. Never really gave a shit about Garen or Skarner, and from what I've seen of the Morde rework he seems really strong and has an interesting new dynamic in a duo lane. Your claims make the assumption that everyone agrees with you. Plenty of people are fine with the armor changes because they don't play bruisers or tanks. Plenty of people will agree with the change to Elise q. And with a slew of new tank items I'm excited to see how the meta will change.

And here's the thing. I never said that to disagree with the changes was wrong. I said it was wrong to make demands of the people in charge after the fact. What do you think Hitler would do to you if you questioned his logic or outright told him that he was wrong. You would be slaughtered and he would proceed as planned regardless. Adults understand that there is a time to argue points of view and a time to move out of the way or be run over. AND YET AGAIN it's a matter of perspective. If you're talking about the allied powers, then yea but we were fighting him anyway. He was our enemy from the start. Riot isn't. From the perspective of axis powers, his ideas and priorities lined up with furthering their cause as a whole, so it wouldn't be any kind of fighting really. The best part is that none of the other powers or people would care about his rationale as long as they won the war. When they were getting their way, no one cared why. Only when people were dissatisfied with the situation at hand did they care about any rhyme or reason.

It isn't as if Riot NEVER listens to the players. Maybe their rationale isn't the most sound, and being vocal about that isn't a bad thing. But they've already stated that it isn't a priority on the list of things to be done. It's hardly on the list at all. And neither you nor I know exactly would happen if a training mode were put in place.

As the patrons of League of Legends, Riot takes into account a lot of our feedback in order to make the game more enjoyable, and they are relatively transparent when it comes to process and intentions, but the players don't always know best, in fact, the players are the most biased party, each one with their own individual agenda which is why everyone isn't going to be happy, and sometimes even the majority isn't happy and that's ok, because half of the time the majority gets the fuck over it. The hud changes for example. Remember "Rip DFG," everybody cried about their favorite mages and ludens wasn't great on people who didn't spam as much, but guess what? People got over it and moved on and the game in my opinion is still fun. probable the biggest issue to date has been the S4 to S5 jungle changes. No one liked them, people didn't care about smite bonuses. They wanted spirit stone and madreds back. They hated how hard the jungle was. Plenty of people even asked for the jungle to stay the same as it was in S4. Riot tweaked the game enough for people to survive in the new jungle but that was pretty much it. Yet look at the meta now. Almost anything works if you can play it well.

Like kids not wanting to eat their veggies, sometimes you don't know what's good for you. Nothing wrong with having an opinion, because it's just that, an opinion. Riot has their own opinion for what they want their game to be, and when they exercise their right to change THEIR GAME, people get all bent out of shape because they don't agree. That's what's childish.

Dextix LTAug 8, 20151 votes

So again, we are the lowly players and riot shouldnt listen to us because they are in charge andd they know better...... Yea..... They know better...... They just showed how "They knoe better".

I question, have you ever read riots manifesto? I have.

http://www.riotgames.com/riot-manifesto#1

PLAYER EXPERIENCE FIRST

We obsess over every part of the experience, from a player’s first game to their thousandth win, from installation to support to esports broadcasts. It all matters.

We listen to what players say and do. We analyze. Then we make data-informed decisions to improve the experience.

¯_(ツ)_/¯

Oh well. Let them do anything they want, since "they know better" and ignore the community. Their manifesto doesnt matter.

KaisadiIIaAug 8, 20152 votes

"We are billionaire. If you want something, do it by yourselves. Now buy Fanservice Ahri."

Cyrex WingbladeAug 7, 20157 votes

Oh geez... that's... way more funny than it should be...

ZGM DazzlingAug 8, 20151 votes

the one about blue smite nerf was way funnier... The "5 ad" nerf one. If you liked this one try to find the old one.

HayRossAug 8, 20151 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lnowbp88lwI I think this might be it

L3gend4ryAspectAug 7, 20154 votes

This.... This is too true

Lucian Shot 2pacAug 7, 20154 votes

LOL ITS 3 AM AND IM LAUGHING SO HARD

Drak PinebreakerAug 7, 20153 votes

Absolutely amazing.

j jAug 7, 20153 votes

When has riot ever listened to the community? If and when they do the changes don't occur until years later. Their company model is "we know best".

BiffoloAug 7, 20153 votes

Hud changes, fiora splashart to name two that have happened in the past month.

j jAug 7, 20151 votes

Hud changes were asked for 5-6 years ago brah. We asked for ult timers and summoner timers years ago. When confronting riot with it they said "priorities" took place over a basic implementation of crucial information for teammates. This information would have prevented millions of games worth of confusion and had given people a shit ton more synergy when making plays together or attempting to. Stop defending a company that time and time again does the bare minimum. They also stated it would be too complicated to add timers or a refresh time period to the hud and or make it too bulky. What a load of absolute crap. Changes happened after a month you think? Did you just join a month ago? JW. I've been playing since 2009 brah and things we wanted back then are slowly getting added now and or not at all. And fiora wasn't released a month ago either brah try 2012. More than likely before your time given your mentality. You're still fresh I envy your cuteness because I used to have that same mentality back in 2010. Now I wonder why my hopes and dreams for this company remain just that and why most people are crapped on by riot when they finally introduce things and do so in a terrible way when many other great suggestions were offered time and time again. But yes enjoy your changes that happened in the "past month" Because they totally only took a month to implement. Good one bro.

BiffoloAug 7, 20151 votes

They never had to listen at all is my point. Be grateful for what you get.

j jAug 8, 20151 votes

Actually they do with more competitors in the market releasing most of what riot has never done even in their beta state. You're completely wrong. Games will eventually start taking player bases with their willingness to implement community desires, mechanics that make sense, and unique content (with tons of other neat ideas). "be grateful for what you get" is a very negative outlook on life. It's like you play this game with the mentality of expecting nothing, so when you get something you can feel ever so good about the bare minimum you are receiving. Where as other games I play I am constantly being stimulated by expecting more and receiving much more than I expected. Who do you think gets more of an experience? And where do you think somebody will go when they get the same treatment? To the next better thing. Which tbh is not league right now while I do hope it will be in the future. I had hoped for that many years ago as previously explained. But yes defend your game. You're still new and it's really cute. Continue expecting nothing so you can be surprised by the very very little things in life.

BiffoloAug 8, 20151 votes

Ive just learned that there isn't a reason to expect anything in the gaming industry, and not get mad at companies for doing their one true purpose: to make money. I don't know why people freak out when a company makes money grabs, that's literally what every company exists for.

j jAug 8, 20152 votes

With that argument you would think they would generate more profit molding their game into the highest standards by having implemented simple changes. I'm not mad at their greed. I believe every company should strive to generate profit. My problem is there is so much potential and wasted resources on things that reflect badly on the company. The only thing I find frustrating is the bullshit excuses on why things haven't been put in or why they are just getting to them. When these simple changes could have cost virtually hardly any assets as opposed to some of the other large scale assignments. (such as reworks, visual upgrades, rift upgrades, game modes etc. could go on and on).

DragoonRuinAug 8, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Hud changes, fiora splashart to name two that have happened in the past month.

Who asked for the Fiora splash art to be changed in the first place. Literally, EVERYONE was happy with the original!

WolfenstinAug 9, 20151 votes

I believe he means the fact her hair was put in front of her eye, similar to the original because everyone kept complaining about it.

Chespin2013Aug 7, 20153 votes

Is there a video for the juggernaught reworks?

DayblazerAug 7, 20151 votes

I dont understand the people going up in arms over sandbox modes. I think its pretty petty to be outraged over something that has never been included in the game to start with.

KnalxzAug 7, 20151 votes

So you're saying that people shouldn't be upset about champions never being released again?

Also the issue is that it takes almost no time to make a sandbox mode and Riot won't even both to do that. What kind of high skill cap game doesn't have a practice like mode?

alaskaneagleAug 7, 20152 votes

{quoted}

So you're saying that people shouldn't be upset about champions never being released again?

Also the issue is that it takes almost no time to make a sandbox mode and Riot won't even both to do that. What kind of high skill cap game doesn't have a practice like mode?

54367

it's not about how hard it is to make or even their BS excuse of "grind bad" (which you only have to look at runes to know they are full of BS on that excuse), it's about; having more people logged on taking up server space. If they added sandbox there would be way more single people in rooms putting to much strain on their servers so they'd have to pay Money to get more... They do Not want to spend money on the filthy Americans.

KaisadiIIaAug 8, 20151 votes

That's not even necessary. They can make a Sandbox mode which is offline. You create a game, you host the game, maybe you have the option to let other people join, and you practice. Just like you were playing a Minecraft or Terraria or <insert almost any game here>.

alaskaneagleAug 8, 20151 votes

{quoted}

That's not even necessary. They can make a Sandbox mode which is offline. You create a game, you host the game, maybe you have the option to let other people join, and you practice. Just like you were playing a Minecraft or Terraria or <insert almost any game here>.

54367

I don't think they'd be willing to lose control of their game program like that. I would IMMEDIATELY go to a different server that got rid of trolls better, pay them, and rito could go fu ck himself.

KaisadiIIaAug 8, 20151 votes

Third party sandbox clients already exist.

btw, what does "54367" means?

alaskaneagleAug 8, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Third party sandbox clients already exist.

btw, what does "54367" means?

54367

:-O where, where are these third party places I can play without the constant pricks Rito loves so much?

KaisadiIIaAug 8, 20151 votes

54342

https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/3fy5ng/league_sandbox_intwars_update_easy_download/

DayblazerAug 7, 20151 votes

{quoted}

So you're saying that people shouldn't be upset about champions never being released again?

Also the issue is that it takes almost no time to make a sandbox mode and Riot won't even both to do that. What kind of high skill cap game doesn't have a practice like mode?

They have a practice mode its called normals and teambuilder. Its one more thing we dont need.

Edit: Even Custom game you can boot up bots there and practice.

KnalxzAug 7, 20151 votes

Are you aware of what people are asking for?

In all of those you have to spend 6 minutes waiting to her how to properly flash over a wall, spend 20 minutes to make a build to test out and you have to restart the match everytime you want to test a different style of clearing the jungle.

if you're going into Normals or TB you're probably ruining someone elses experience by sitting there for 45 minute trying to flash over a giant wall.

Bots don't really give you an accurate description of an items power because the bots are really janky. A Ryze bot will build an Infinity Edge.

People just want a Hyperbolic Time Chamber to better themselves. It goes beyond how they want to lane or smite timing, it's much more and that's why people are upset. That and it's something that literally takes less then a day to implement.

iainB85Aug 7, 20151 votes

Almost as good as the "5 AD" warrior enchant one. Classic.

Davy CrockettAug 8, 20151 votes

HAHAHHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAA oh that was great

SilverthaneAug 8, 20151 votes

omg this old man always fucking kills me xD

Ranger AzerethAug 8, 20151 votes

I definitely think that if enough people make a constructive argument that Riot may listen and decide to implement sand box mode after all. Playing a game of league should be the best way of bettering yourself as a whole. There's no other place to really have the best learning experience in lane or team comp. However certain skills and end game scenarios do not come up often enough in a way that enables learning those skills. It hinders players in a way that could annoy them to no end because they will repeatedly fail flash at 3 different points on the map and can't seem to get them down. Spread out over 30 games that on average last about 40 minutes they might need to flash at those points 30 times so once per game at those locations. If they're being chased and are low on health that can cost them a kill, an entire team fight if they were flashing over to start engaging, and in some cases the entire game if it was a crucial fight.

Is it really the best way to learn when you can be so discouraged and upset with yourself for failing to flash at the same points but yet not sure the best timing to flash over those locations? No it'd be easier to learn by the visual cues by actually doing it a few time. Which could be one 20 minute session saving maybe 3 or 5 40 minute games that would end in a loss out of those 30.

Also to be fair the numbers I'm using are pure speculation and are not indicative of actual results. I just think sand box mode is practical and can help with practice.....honestly I see a lot of people do bots for the same thing and often can't even practice what they were really wanting to because of other players or how long the game lasts. So yeah, I hope riot reconsiders.

WyvernEggAug 9, 20151 votes

It's not as funny when you understand what he's saying...

MrWasjigAug 10, 20151 votes

"But don't worry, we got that weaboo Ahri skin being worked on" I fucking cracked up at that point. As much as I'm looking forward to that skin, this still brings up all of our gripes and takes the piss outta Riot in that most glorious way xD