TSM is terrible ATM

SuperJediNinja·Feb 7, 2016·13 votes·2,610 views

I just want to know how can they be so bad.... Even the other lower tier teams have some sort of organization in their games ...

36 Comments

xJLx MCHammerFeb 7, 20164 votes

They got some of the best players but they can't seem to be on the same page. I guarantee you this line up won't last long; double lift has and always will have a attitude. You can see there is tension between him and yellowstar

Also, I'm glad they are not doing so well. They got rid of wild turtle and now everyone is thinking, why?

SuperJediNinjaFeb 8, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=xJLx MCHammer,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=1ioXV4uw,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-02-07T23:54:23.369+0000)

They got some of the best players but they can't seem to be on the same page. I guarantee you this line up won't last long; double lift has and always will have a attitude. You can see there is tension between him and yellowstar

Also, I'm glad they are not doing so well. They got rid of wild turtle and now everyone is thinking, why?

Didn't fit their play style and it he wasn't very good

MoonshadeFeb 8, 20166 votes

and yet Immortals have been near Immortal with WildTurtle... [slayer-jinx-unamused]

iamleburkFeb 8, 20161 votes

Umm he's still pretty overaggressive. There is a big question to whether he looks good because he knows how to carry or he looks good because his teammates let him. From what I remember from last worlds, Wildturtle almost had none of the gold share of the team. So maybe it's because IMT actually give him resources to work with.

Spaceman5pffFeb 8, 20162 votes

Did you even fucking watch the Immortals game today? "Turtle isn't very good"

LMFAO

manliestdinoFeb 8, 20162 votes

He probably should have phrased it differently. It's more like turtle sucks with the way TSM was set up with Bjerg carrying and he wasn't allowed to be aggressive. With Adrian, he can act aggressively as Adrian plays disengage, or heal supports.

LegendmakerGXFeb 8, 20162 votes

No the main reason why turtle didn't do so good in TSM was because it was always get BJERG fed so he can carry. Wonder why CLG is doing so much better without DL? Because darshan can actually play carry roles rather then play champion that peels all the time for DL to get kills and carry alone.

Everyone says DL is THE BEST ADC , Yes he is good but the best is no. Reason why he had a good score to begin with was because all his team was practically force to give him the kills all the time so he can be their star carry which I bet CLG hated.

Now with DL and Bjerg trying to get the main role of all kills this is a conflicting issue on who gets the kill and be the star carry.

Also I love how when DL was kicked out the TSM ass kisser where saying GG CLG is over and now going to be the worst team and TSM is now the best team in NA....This sure proves them all wrong. They think because 1 guy who people say is the best will make the team the best is wrong.

DL getting kicked out of CLG gave so much opening for CLG so they can actually share the kills rather let a hog take them all.

Idiot's must learn that 1 PERSON WILL NEVER CARRY ALONE, Share the kills because if that 1 fed person is taken out then GG it's over while if you share the kill it mean's that even if 1 person dies they will have someone (Not as super fed but has at least kills to build item) can back the team up in a team fight.

Note: I am not a CLG or TSM fanboy I barly give a crap about the team's but I'm stating the truth. DL with out a team giving him all the kills is really nothing and should not be consider NA best ADC.

iamleburkFeb 8, 20163 votes

I was more thinking yellowstar would make the difference by fixing their shotcalling. But it looks like even the great yellowstar cant tame the doublelift.

This roster on paper should be better than Immortals. Hopefully they get their shit together and we get to see some top tier League of Legends. If it never does, it would be a massive failure on the part of the TSM coaching staff and management.

Axis the DragonFeb 8, 20163 votes

#Warning: Wall of text incoming

The problem is their conflicting roles

Hauntzer is the most stable member of their team (which is saying a lot, considering he's the rookie) - decent at all stages of the game, but not enough to be relied on as a fallback in case the team crumbles around him

Svenskeren is an invading god but he's very prone to tilting (even moreso than Huni, imo). He also takes a lot of the team's gold, as a carry jungler.

Bjerg is a mechanical god but his decision-making isn't always the best. He also requires most of the team's gold.

D Lift is a mechanical god but his decision-making isn't always the best. He also requires most of the team's gold.

(Seem familiar?)

YellowStar was supposed to be the shotcalling "glue" that bound the team together, but his lack of laning proficiency doesn't mesh well with LiftLift's aggressive and selfish laning. YS is a teamfight monster and a superb team player overall, but his weaknesses are made even more glaring due to the team's lack of cohesion and playstyle.

Besides, it really, really doesn't help that Regi is literally staring holes into the players. If you underperform, he can replace you at the drop of a hat - this pressure is a part of the reason Turtle choked a lot.

Meanwhile, on IMT

Huni is unstable and prone to tilting, but will carry if given the opportunity. Requires a lot of gold, though.

Reignover is the "cold" to Huni's "hot" and serves as the controlled counterbalance to his recklessness. Having someone like that who also happens to be a capable shotcaller and good overall player makes him more useful overall than YS.

Pobelter is a pure team player, and serves to play whatever his team needs. He's not gonna be making highlight reels, but he's very good. He doesn't need as much of the team's gold.

WildTurtle has major confidence issues. But when you have uber reliable players like RO, Notorious P.O.B. and Adrian, you can play out of your mind. Does require some gold funneling, but nowhere near as much as DLift.

If RO is the Yang to Huni's Yin, then so is Adrian to WildTurtle. They balance each other out extremely well, and Adrian has a LOT of experience playing with hyperaggressive players (The Bloodthirsty Gods that were Summer Split TiP, anyone?). IMO Adrian should've gotten MVP over Rush, but maybe that's just me. He's the fallback net whenever an overaggressive play goes badly (and they rarely do). He'll keep the team alive - at least, long enough to ace the enemy team.

TSM's roster, on paper, is stacked af, but looking at their playstyles, IMT just have so much synergy together, whereas TSM have a lot of conflicting ideals. Until TSM can find the perfect balance, they can't be hailed as a superteam. Heck, IMT isn't even a superteam. But they have cohesion, something a lot of teams lack right now.

It's still early, though. The Spring Split is all about reorganization - the real test is MSI and the Summer Split. As long as TSM can get rolling by then, they'll be sitting near the top, IMO.

iamleburkFeb 8, 20161 votes

I would like to relate RO and Huni to Marin and Benghi last split. Obviously not as good, but a great combo. Idk if you've being keeping up, but did you see Marin's first game on LGD? He got absolutely stomped by some no name chinese top laner. But they are amazing when playing together, and I think Reignover is by far the best jungler in the league right now. I doubt that would be the case otherwise, same for Huni.

The only ones I question on IMT are Pobelter and Adrian. Pobelter hasn't exactly been putting up the best stats, which is odd for an undefeated team, and I'm not yet sure about Adrian's champion pool. I feel like Wildturtle is entirely dependent on Adrian atm as well. So if the meta shifts to mid lane, especially with those Mage reworks coming up (although i think those wont be till next split iirc), or if Soraka and Janna start becoming liability picks, you might see them falter quite a bit. As it is, they are prone to making over aggressive moves, but the other teams are generally too scared to capitalize.

Oh I completely despise Reginald. He's a cocky prick, and any problems this team has right now is going to be his fault. We've seen plenty of times the idiotic arguments and power trips he gets with his players, and while people say he's grown past that now, that just means it's not somewhere we can see. He said in one of those stupid reality shows they have that "everyone's the shotcaller now" and now you have doublelift saying they sound like their playing soloqueue. And if you listen to their teamspeak, it really is that bad. They got a god tier fucking shot caller and this idiot says "Ughh you can all shotcall together right guys?"

That's not to mention the shady and insanely asinine moves he's pulled in the past concerning Chris Badawi, his Smite team, his CS GO team, and more recently the visa issues.

Axis the DragonFeb 9, 20161 votes

Adrian's support pool is pretty small, I agree - but unlike Remi, who becomes a liability outside of her select few Champions, Adrian has played, with success, Champions other than Raka/Janna. The WildAdrian combo is definitely fallible, though, I agree.

Earl EulrichFeb 9, 20161 votes

well, i think that just shows what i´ve always said about SKT - Bengi is their main carry in all of their titles. He just has such supreme control of the game when he´s on top of his play that he enables the other members of his team to play hyperaggressive and look good. Even Faker gets outclassed a lot this season in mid when Benig has a sub-par game or they use the sub-jungler.

for IMT i´m really afraid if Adrian gets banned out on the defensive supports (janna, soraka and uif he dares playing sona just pick a blitz into it)...as they seem very reliant on him organising their teamfights and counterbalancing the lack of a real frontline in all their setups. Though no NA teams seems good enough to do that to IM right now.

iamleburkFeb 9, 20161 votes

That's not true. The point of bengi is that he facilitates aggressive laners by being a really good cerebral player. He's the peyton manning of the jungle, knowing where to be, but if you ask him to be aggressive himself he just can't do it. Faker doesn't get outclassed, he gets camped because he has no bengi to ward for him and let him know he can be aggressive in lane.

The problem with bengi is right now. You see how he gets shat on by the ROX Tigers? He simply doesn't know how to play aggressive, and having a good jungler in this meta is really important. He can't play nidalee, I haven't seen him on graves at all, or Kindred. The only meta junglers i see him play are reksai and Elise.

It's not if Adrian gets banned out, it's if Adrian gets exploited. There are probably many weaknesses to Janna and Soraka, that if they are baited into those picks will lose them the game. Although him being banned out might result in the return of TSM Wildturtle.

B00B00Feb 8, 20161 votes

no he was great it was always ''feed the Bjerg'' that was TSM's only tactic and now that Bjerg is basically ignored or outclassed by real TEAMS they are having trouble to the highest notion.

101100111000Feb 7, 20162 votes

Tank Fiora didn't stop being op doe.

Spaceman5pffFeb 8, 20162 votes

Have TSM run 5 tank fiora's, then they don't need coordination, they just win.

LSmaster16Feb 9, 20161 votes

Wouldn't they get banned for hacking then? Pretty sure we don't have AFO/ofa in normal LCS.

DREADN0UGHTFeb 7, 20161 votes

kappa?

FowusFeb 7, 20164 votes

{quoted}

kappa?

nice icon

FrankerXFeb 7, 20164 votes

no kappa. tsm sucks at the moment.

broseidanFeb 7, 20161 votes

The thing that kills me is that they've replaced nearly everything about their organization: new coach, four new players, allegedly taking Bjerg off shot calling. Yet, they look almost the same as last season. Yellowstar is going in for solid looking engages and getting left to die, just like Lustboy. Hauntzer has really solid technical play, but he still gave up two kills under the top turret to a Ryze which is something Dyrus loved doing. Doublelift is getting caught out in lanes the same way Wildturtle was. I think it's interesting that Wildturtle moved to a different team and that stopped. Even the areas with moderate improvement haven't changed the equation to clean wins. This feels like an organizational problem at a higher level than coaches or players, TSM's management seems broken.

anonymous119Feb 7, 20164 votes

{quoted}

The thing that kills me is that they've replaced nearly everything about their organization: new coach, four new players, allegedly taking Bjerg off shot calling. Yet, they look almost the same as last season. Yellowstar is going in for solid looking engages and getting left to die, just like Lustboy. Hauntzer has really solid technical play, but he still gave up two kills under the top turret to a Ryze which is something Dyrus loved doing. Doublelift is getting caught out in lanes the same way Wildturtle was. I think it's interesting that Wildturtle moved to a different team and that stopped. Even the areas with moderate improvement haven't changed the equation to clean wins. This feels like an organizational problem at a higher level than coaches or players, TSM's management seems broken.

It seems like reginald more than any other owner has this time table where if you don't show significant results within 4-8 months then you will be replaced no exceptions. Every role and every staff member is constantly fighting to keep their job.

I don't necessarily think this is wrong, but it from an outside perspective it seems like it would be a tremendous amount of pressure on any one. I think a lot of the poor play from wildturtle on tsm was him being crushed by this pressure. The negative atmosphere seems very problematic from the current players post game interviews where no one is happy and you'd have to imagine a lot of that is the glowering face of reginald sitting behind them.

So many shot callers and players have said how important it is to play from a position of confidence. A bad call made decisively is better than constantly having the game dictated by your opponent. No one on tsm looks confident and this is just one small sliver of the many problems they seem to have.

Spaceman5pffFeb 8, 20162 votes

I understand where you are coming from on the point of Turtle crumbling under pressure, except when they presented him with a VERY REAL replacement (Keith) he stepped up massively.

I would say Turtle thrives under pressure.

iamleburkFeb 8, 20163 votes

Most people who only follow League or who barely follow League don't realize this, but Regi's a complete asshole. There is multiple examples of him just ditching a team in another game (his Smite and CSGO team in particular) without paying them, which is coincidentally happening around the same time he's signing these major ass contracts with players like Doublelift and Yellowstar. So in other words, good chance he paid for those players with the money he stole from his other teams.

And to boot, that CSGO team was the second best in the world. Like KOO tigers level shit. But he just dropped the team because he didn't feel like paying the players that have won him 10x as many tournaments as his League team, and probably more money as well.

FowusFeb 8, 20165 votes

{quoted}

The thing that kills me is that they've replaced nearly everything about their organization: new coach, four new players, allegedly taking Bjerg off shot calling. Yet, they look almost the same as last season. Yellowstar is going in for solid looking engages and getting left to die, just like Lustboy. Hauntzer has really solid technical play, but he still gave up two kills under the top turret to a Ryze which is something Dyrus loved doing. Doublelift is getting caught out in lanes the same way Wildturtle was. I think it's interesting that Wildturtle moved to a different team and that stopped. Even the areas with moderate improvement haven't changed the equation to clean wins. This feels like an organizational problem at a higher level than coaches or players, TSM's management seems broken.

turtle is not getting caught now because he can play without the stress of getting benched which he had while on tsm

Spaceman5pffFeb 8, 20163 votes

Wildturtle stopped being effectively punished for being caught out because his team is there to back him up rather than frantically watching Bjergsen

Avarosa Guide MeFeb 8, 20161 votes

If you think TSM is unorganized, look at the team i support. Echo Fox is getting demolished atm.

Earl EulrichFeb 8, 20161 votes

well sure, a rookie-team grouped around froggen that now is forced to play without one of the most experienced players there is to lead them....it´s really not comperable to the TSM situation.

LegendmakerGXFeb 8, 20161 votes

I can't agree with you there Coronaus because remember they don't even have 2 of their real players so it ain't echo fox fault. RENAGADES...... that is a team you can say look unorganized. TSM has veteran players how all know what to do while at the moment echo fox barely have all the players who know how to lane swap or just farm until late game. Only keith seems to know that.

SuperJediNinjaFeb 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

If you think TSM is unorganized, look at the team i support. Echo Fox is getting demolished atm.

They need their full roster

JofeyyFeb 8, 20161 votes

Having too many dominant members in a team is a bad idea. They will all try to call the shots and no one will be on the same page.

grugFeb 8, 20161 votes

its a well known fact that most NA organisations put european/white men on a pedestal thats why they relied so heavily on bjergsen with all the resources they put on him while poor old toitle was left to dry out in the sun and make his own sick plays. Immortals on the other hand despite hun and reignover being relatively young, go into games with clear goals and objectives regardless of the potential consequences.

#ASIAN LIVES MATTER TOO

not srs.

semi srs.

MazariamontiFeb 8, 20161 votes

Doublelift is a disease.

C9 Scott Free Feb 10, 20161 votes

Teams just need to take the Hai approach and have one shot caller that everyone listens to no matter what. C9 with Hai has the best comms by far. Only he speaks basically and thats how it needs to be with Yellowstar but his English seems weak to me and I think thats whats hurting them