Boards›Dev Corner

AP Itemisation Context

RiotNot Surrendering·10/17/2017, 11:26:48 PM·1 votes·30,671 views

Hey everyone, Trading Stance aka PhRoXzOn aka Fizz Enthusiast here.

We’re in the process of spinning up work on AP Itemisation and I wanted to drop some quick context as we move forward with the project. First off, this is part of the game I’m really passionate about, and as a mage/AP assassin player for ~3 seasons now, I definitely resonate with various aspects of the community sentiment on both the boons and flaws of current AP itemisation. Also the lack of itemisation choices are obviously holding me back from Master tier.

This is something we've been talking about for a long time and we felt that now was a good time.

I’m not going to go into detail on exact tactics and problems here (that will be once things are more fleshed out), but will talk a bit about goals and some of the things to think about when tackling opportunities here.

Primary Goal · Create contextual choices amongst items (especially amongst first items), we want items to be the correct purchase in some circumstances, and not in others.

Notes · This will not be a complete overhaul of the AP item system as we want to actually get this out the door in a reasonable time frame. · There are a myriad of things to think about in this space so bear with us – it will be a time consuming project along with the other things I’m working on!

I’m expecting to post another update to this when the time comes, so stay tuned. Thanks for being patient.

172 Comments

DeathBurst10/18/2017, 3:09:10 AM45 votes

Can we expect a more... structured framework? With mid-size components that solve specific problems early on during the laning, and multiple situational upgrades that you can choose between later on? Like the family of Zeal items for ADC, or the various defensive items for ADC all built out of Vamp Scepter? Or like Hexdrinker and Bramblevest for Fighters/Tanks?

There has been some hints of that in the previous Itemization Passes, with Catalyst versus Lost Chapter, or with the reworked Hextech Revolver, but it didn't go as far as it should have, and it's still not satisfying. Overall, the AP Itemization still fells like a jumble of various historical items thrown together without a proper structure to it, and THAT is, in my eyes, the most damning problem, beyond any specific issue like lack of MPen or Morello crowding out other items.

Monotachi10/18/2017, 3:08:00 AM30 votes

Definite changes to item 3089 . This item has fallen so much since S3/S4/S5. It has such an awkward build path that makes it you either need to rush it kinda early so you can buy all the 3 components but because it is so expensive, you delay reaching the necessary power spike OR you buy it near the end of the game, and there are no more item slots to get all 3 components, hence the combine cost of item 3089 becomes awful.

Raxistaicho10/18/2017, 12:19:33 AM14 votes

Lost Chapter definitely needs to build into another item. The problem of Morellonomicon being a near-required rush is more a problem of the nature of spellcasting champs (you can't just rush AP like a physical champ can rush AD, you need to get something to ease mana costs as well) than a problem of the item itself.

SkyblazeHydraX310/18/2017, 6:52:47 AM12 votes

Personally? I'd recommend you guys give this as much time and attention as you did the changes you made for flat armor pen to lethality. While still not a perfect system with some areas of shortfall or abuse, lethality is an absolute improvement over the prior system of flat armor pen.

Don't rush this for the sake of getting it out quickly. Take your time, do some thorough brainstorming, and make sure you guys can be overall confident in what you push out. If you guys rush just to appease the masses, they'll simply get more infuriated.

SB Arneeman10/18/2017, 7:29:45 AM11 votes

Some items certainly need to be change and more potions must be added to make ap itemization satisfying.

We need more viable mana options. Morellonomicon is built 90% of the time or more, with both a good build path and since it's cost efficient. Make at least one more item building from Lost chapter. Tear is also rather weak and only bought on a few champions. Rod of ages is okay, but the build path is kinda bad.
We need more pen items. There are no options to choose from, on most mages you want all 3 items giving magic pen. Even assassins sometimes get Liandrys when they want neither the hp or burn.
Rabadons needs a smoother build path. Make it build out of a new mini-rabadons with 15-20% increased ap.
Some items are basically useless atm. Rylais is way too weak and needs a change badly, especially with the new slowing keystone.
We may need some assassin-based items. Fizz for example has insane scalings, near 100% or above on all abilitiess, due to low ap build path. If you add something meant for assassins they will be easier to balance and you can reduce scalings to prevent extreme snowballing while still making them somewhat useful when behind.

Qiyana is SO HOT10/18/2017, 9:47:52 AM10 votes

Please make some AP assassin items. A couple AP assassins have no use for items like Morello and have 0 way to hit 40% cdr without the item. Also itemization is forcing most AP assassins into either a Gunblade/Protobelt first buy 99% of the time. Need some dedicated AP assassin items similar to the lethality items for AD's. Also please buff seekers to finally be on par with hexdrinker thanks.

Solidair310/17/2017, 11:41:29 PM10 votes

My concern here is this: "Create contextual choices amongst items (especially amongst first items), we want items to be the correct purchase in some circumstances, and not in others."

To me this reads as "morellonomicon is too generalist and so we'll split it into two much less satisfying items"

On one hand I am RIGHT there with you, on the other hand I don't want two objectively weaker items taking their place, especially in this environment where mages are perceived as weak, especially compared to the current state of marksmen (Which is I think a mixture of both shielding being too readily available and some counterplay issues with supports and most specifically Twitch). Are you guys looking at this of the angle of remove morellonomicon and replace it with more choices or are you coming at this from a "what can we put out that could potentially compete with a morellonomicon?"

Also, have you guys considered instead of dumping mana on the first items a mage buy, spreading the mana out on many mage items?

The Equalizer10/17/2017, 11:49:34 PM9 votes

My wishlist: Rylai's buffs Less CDR on items More Mpen items Tenacity item (Moonflair Spellblade?) One more grevious wounds option More first item mana generation options Lifeline item (some sort of hexdrinker for mages)

Edit: to clarify my CDR point, is that right now I think it's way too easy to get to 30 or 40% CDR without doing so intentionally. I believe that if someone wants to intentionally get to 40 CDR, it would be better to have some items more focused on the CDR stat as its primary bonus for completing the item. Why does morellonomicon give 20% cdr? It already has grevious wounds and mana regen. I'm not advocating straight up removing CDR from items, I just feel like there's 10% CDR on every other item..

Keep in mind that also there's that new Rune that gives 10% CDR and ap/ad for each percent over 40% CDR.

kayakninja10/18/2017, 12:02:12 AM6 votes

Wonderful. Hoping to see an alternative to item 3165 first. It being so omnipresent has always felt bad to me, since it means a lot of mages wind up with Grievous Wounds by default.

Hamudi 12mom10/18/2017, 11:09:14 AM5 votes

I feel like liandries need a better identity, the MPen part of the item makes it better aginst squishies, but its unique burn passive is for fighting tanks, i feel like the items power needs to focus on one of these

Vekkna10/18/2017, 2:04:45 AM5 votes

item 3802 + item 3136 + item 1026 + item 1052 = item 3003 item 3134 for APs item 3116 40% slow, 30% for aoe, 20% for damage over time. Because item 3022 still exists and the double standard is glaringly obvious item 3812 replace with 125 AP and heal on magic damage, because again...double standard

HenzoAF10/18/2017, 11:50:20 AM4 votes

We should have another item made of item 3136 since item 3151 is something that few can enjoy, but the new item should still have the "UNIQUE – EYES OF PAIN: +15 magic penetration" so you can't abuse 48 Flat Pen (Only 33). This could be a new option for AP Assassins instead of being obligated to buy item 3146 just for the active.

HenzoAF10/18/2017, 6:05:12 PM4 votes

Isn't Crit too generalist? It's good for damage and isn't situational

Off Meta Zilean10/18/2017, 11:55:12 PM4 votes

Just please, please don't decrease current mana amounts. Morello's is considered 'OP' but only because it's 100% necessary for most mages to function at a baseline. We need access to mana sustain at least as strong as current Lost Chapter gives us

ShadowParker10/17/2017, 11:31:22 PM4 votes

Is this AP pass expected to come out during mid-season, or during pre-season? Or somewhere inbetween?

HenzoAF10/18/2017, 11:57:17 AM4 votes

item 3135 should have more options like item 3035 item 3036 item 3033 has.

Siachi10/18/2017, 4:12:19 AM3 votes

I would say adding new upgrades to Lost Chapter may help a bit in diversity. The item itself does a lot to help early mana issue, and I'd say that "Mage group A has item X, group B has Y, etc." is at least a bit than "All mages build X".

Also, I'd prefer to see Morellonomicon keep Grievous Wounds, but just be less of a general pick. On one hand, I'd want to keep the meme of Morello's healer vendetta alive, but on the other, having GW tacked onto an item that everyone in a certain class will buy just makes things needlessly difficult for champs that rely on healing.

And finally, a bit more flat Magic Pen options would be nice. With MPen runes being removed, all we'll have are Sorc Shoes (Which can be overlooked for other boots, depending on the situation) and Haunting Guise/Liandries (Who's statline/effects are more suited to a sustained damage mage, rather than the assassins that'd want to pop squishy targets),

Hungry Cancer10/18/2017, 3:23:17 AM3 votes

Please try to show some love to AP supports like Zyra, items that let us debuff the enemy or help our ally to deal more damage would be much appreciated. If you get too worried about carries abusing the item then you could make it an evolving item that requires a quest similar to the Gp5 and Tear items so it'll only be good if you're actually spending time with an ally constantly. Also I would LOVE a Spellblade support item, that would just be awesome.

Worlds Collide10/17/2017, 11:30:05 PM3 votes

^.^

Dope Solo10/18/2017, 1:35:13 PM3 votes

You could try listening to the playerbase this time. Evelynn