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AP Items Request for Balance Thoughts

RiotNot Surrendering·2/8/2018, 8:24:13 PM·83 votes·19,890 views

Hi all,

We are really strapped for Playtesting resources at the moment.

I'm looking for feedback (clips especially) for the following things (if people playing on PBE could grab them):

  • Liandry's Balance.
  • First item balance.
  • People who can waveclear with items where they couldn't before (especially Ludens), eg. Lux
  • General Mages vs Anybody balance.
  • Individual item balance (our thoughts are: Rylai/Liandrys > GLP > Ludens atm)
  • Ryze/Cassio/Anivia/other mana stacker balance.
  • First mini mana item balance in mid lane (Lost Chapter vs Dirk vs Revolver vs Catalyst) eg. Zed/Talon/Kat/Jayce/Yasuo, etc.

General

  • Please accompany clips/screenshots with the scoreboard if possible.
  • Mathematic analysis is also appreciated. (eg. Spreadsheets of damage vs targets).

286 Comments

DreamerP2/8/2018, 9:14:58 PM47 votes

I have an issue with the GW on Morello's costing 3000g O_o;;; at least before I paid for Mana/CD...but ADCs pay 800g to get item 3123 , so now if I have to deal w/ Healing/Self-Healing I need to deviate from my build path to drop 3k on an item that has sub-par stats aside from a buffed GW effect, if that's the case I'd rather get the old GW effect to have cheaper access to it or just put the GW on something like item 3135 which actually makes sense since you know ADCs have this item 3033

And no summoner 14 is not a solution >_>;;;

ModWuks2/8/2018, 8:49:00 PM44 votes

Hey all, please keep all feedback related to the topics listed in the original post. Comments that seek to derail the conversation or are otherwise off-topic may be removed. Thanks, loves!

BleKz2/8/2018, 8:50:37 PM41 votes

I still think there is no AP itemization for assassins, magic pen is just throwed in 1 item that gives health and ap, but they don't have a reliable access of mana and cdr like mages. Protobelt is just good with Ekko, and going lich bane first is not really that good since you need more ap to make real use of the passive, tho I think this item having more mana will allow champs like Fizz and Ekko to function better and not running oom as easily once its completed.

Cool additions will be :

An item the likes of AP + Magic Pen + CDR + Mana/Burst active option

Giving Lich bane 500/400 mana instead of 250 and probably 20% cdr instead of 10 with the haste passive

Basically, make so AP assassins have options just as mages have, because their build paths are terrible

Ahristocats2/8/2018, 8:31:19 PM28 votes

My problem was that twin shadows was too overtuned, and liandry but you fixed that yesterday

if i had one more request it would be to look over spellbound orb through my experience it was possible to gather 50/60 stacks at best in my PBE games, you reduced it to 100 stacks from 200 stacks but i still think it's impossible to get the maximum power from this item

you would need to do sheningans with your team mates and tell them to pick champions like Yasuo and spam Q every single second near you but that's so awkard

personal opinion: reduce the maximum number of stack while reducing a bit the AP/movement speed you get

Titanium702/8/2018, 9:47:06 PM25 votes

Currently Mages face some pretty annoying issues that - sadly - can't be fixed by some Item changes.

The main problem is their role:

What are they supposed to do? (Besides preventing the opponent from Armorstacking) Historicly Mages were Midgame Carrys opposed to the Lategamecarry ADCs.

This is no longer the case. ADCs spike in Mid now - harder than most mages. And mages no longer spike at all. (maybe once with Haunting/Sorcs)

Right now a Mage is a roaming Support for the ADC. You AFK waveclear Mid - roam bot - get a lead onto your carry. Once Teamfights start you peel for your carry just like any other Support.

NoWay4u Fangirl 2/8/2018, 8:45:02 PM21 votes

Pls don´t remove the 300hp on item 3030. item 3030 User dont need 20% CDR....AurelionSol Anivia Kassadin Swain TwistedFate

ƒrostγ2/8/2018, 8:52:36 PM20 votes

Most of the changes are fine, however I'm surprised you guys haven't touched item 3027 .

LightIsMyPath2/9/2018, 2:26:02 AM16 votes

Just had some games on the PBE as Lux. I have to say that I don't really like the new path tried.

I tried rushing Ludens, and it was a really strong spike in damage (on loosing lanes I came back with ludens and killed the opponent or forced him back).. but once the teamfights came I had to completely forget of even trying to waveclear/poke or I would be completely oom during the teamfight.

The spellbound orb while good on paper felt really unimpactful due to the high time required to stack.

I never had the occasion to buy Morello. Really, once I get the 1500 gold little orb that gives me what I am looking for in the item (magic pen flat), why would I ever pay another 1500 to get 60 AP more and "not requested" GW? Why didn't you give us the opportunity to buy pen without GW (and GW alone.. I'm not eager to face a Vladimir..godbless)? Why the big flat pen item always has attached something else (yes, I DON'T WANT HP TOO)?

the only change that really hit the mark for me at the first impression is the new Rabadon's buildpath. It finally felt not so pain to buy and I think I can finally aim to have a nice hat more or less reliably.

Next I will try AA path because really Ludens mana is not enough to sustain my high cost spells in a siege or prolonged skirmish scenario. It was supposed to be THE item for poke champions.. but you simply can't poke out of lane without ending your mana miserably

Radiant Seraph2/8/2018, 9:34:21 PM15 votes

Can I ask if releasing more high AP items is out of the question and if that's the case why?

Tevisch2/8/2018, 8:35:30 PM15 votes

Only note I want to post here is regarding mana-heavy champions/skill spammers. Removing morello mana return means that you are forced to buy tear. Luden/Morello won't be enough with just the mana they provide. I expect a shift back to RoA+Tear on a lot of champions that used to scrape by with just morello and didn't buy Roa/Tear at all. That's reducing build diversity, not increasing it. I hope you have that in mind and you'll balance accordingly instead of leaving them in a shitter for reminder of the season if they underperform.

ShuyinTheX2/8/2018, 8:42:31 PM11 votes

The only change I feel Liandry's needs is to revert back to current HP, the rest is fine as is, you can even revert it back to 2% from 1.5%.

Champions that deal max HP damage like Brand and Mordekaiser work far to well with this item as is. Brand's passive tics for 4 seconds, standard damage has Liandry's tic 7 times, for 10.5% of a champion's max HP, 14.5% if you add in Brand's 4%. If he buys Crystal Scepter, it jumps to 21%/25%. None of this counting damage from other sources and just 1 stack of Brand's passive. With Mordekaiser, his rank 3 ult takes 35% (+4% per 100 AP) and tics for 10 seconds, this causes Liandry's to take 19.5% by itself and 54.5% with Morde's ult. Add in Crystal Scepter here too, it becomes 39%/74% if Morde has 0 AP (which isn't going to happen).

Just revert to Current HP and everything will be alright again.

Altonius Amakiir2/8/2018, 10:06:00 PM10 votes

Spreadsheet of Rabadon damage vs Void Staff damage: https://1drv.ms/x/s!Ah4pdH2v9szDgtBE549dmwSKFDak_w

This Spreadsheet covers AP built before building one of them, the opponents resistance (I didn't do any scenario where Void Staff would reduce the resistance below 0%), base magic damage on ability, and the AP ratio on the ability. I did scenarios up to a 500% AP ratio so that it could be used to see impact of full combo vs single ability, as well as scenarios up to 1000 base magic damage for the same purposes. I then set up an equation to show what AP built previous to buying Rabadon's or Void Staff gave equal damage for the two items, with numbers higher than the resultant AP favoring a Void Staff build. I then filtered the 3500+ scenarios to only show positive resultant AP (where it's actually possible for the two to give equal damage outputs at some point).

This spreadsheet compares buying one over the other, and from looking at it, it's still a buy Void Staff world in almost all cases. If however Riot wants Rabadon's place to be in addition to a Void Staff, then Rabadon's may be a worthwhile item.

On specifics of equations used please see this post (helps keep this post small): https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/TaijPHAm-ap-itemization-on-pbe-84?comment=00e3

Emo Twink2/8/2018, 10:54:27 PM10 votes

Hi, I was hoping for an AP QSS, Zhonyas changes to make it less punishing to get against a Zed (while he doesnt get punished for Hexdrinker), and a better build path for Rabbadons. Two NLR still isnt good. I doubt this is going to get seen but another thing I want changed is changes to Sorc boots so mages can actually get other types of boots.

pinkballoon2/8/2018, 9:18:09 PM10 votes

"People who can waveclear with items where they couldn't before (especially Ludens), eg. Lux" You're not thinking to nerf her if she does clear the waves righttt??? Shes basically the only ranged mid mage that cant clear waves easily so it would be confusing if you did.

BestPudgeNA2/9/2018, 2:41:58 AM8 votes

I am disappointed by the lack of AP items that do stuff other then Mana/CDR and Damage. It's nice having items that a useful in different matchups like item 3155, it would've been nice to see an AP upgrade of item 3140 or some more items for mages that need to get up close and stay in like Vladimir Swain.

Where is muh item 3306 clicky that i was promised when the support items were changed.

Also i can't wait to watch the train wreck of imbalance item 3151 will cause. S7 item 3504 will pale in comparison

sizable doinks2/9/2018, 5:55:36 AM7 votes

This has probably already been mentioned but the removal of hp in trade for CDR on GLP is a pretty big nerf to Aurelion Sol. He is one of the few champs in the game that doesnt NEED cdr to work. Also with the removal of catalyst from the build path, Aurelion Sol will struggle with mana sustain early game. GLP is the perfect item for asol and this change is going to hurt him pretty bad. Thanks.

CyberBalt2/8/2018, 9:15:04 PM7 votes

I like the changes for the most part. I think you could stand to make Morello's cheaper, 3000 gold for average stats and the 15mpen is a bit overkill. I know it has GW too but the rest of the GW items are all also very cheap, so it seems fine. Also, I don't know how you guys could do this, but I wish you would keep GLP good for Aurelion Sol. The lost catalyst passive + health really sucks for him.

Spellbound Orb stacks a bit too slowly in my opinion, even after the buff. It doesn't seem like a great first item rush because of how long it takes to stack, and it doesn't seem especially great in teamfights either due to the active cooldown.

VeganScout2/8/2018, 9:34:41 PM2 votes

Why was athene holy grail ignored ?

How do you feel about that item ?

Yordle Xayah2/8/2018, 8:38:23 PM2 votes

(But PBE is on maintenance monkaS)

Hello!

In the Mid Lane, I'm a Kennen player. I like to build Liandry's as my first item, and my only concern is that the item would become worse than how it is live, but since the PBE is off right now, I'll have to check and report later. Gonna do a buncha tests :D

BigBonedCartman2/8/2018, 8:27:11 PM1 votes

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