Crit Item Explorations Part 2

RiotNot Surrendering·1/15/2019, 1:12:09 AM·1 votes·172,409 views

Hi everyone,

I’m back again to talk a bit about crit items, share what we have so far and hear your feedback.

After testing for a few weeks and considering feedback both internally and from the community, here’s where we’ve landed. The exact details are still in flux and we may need to change a few more things, but I’d love to see what you all think. What are you excited about? What are we missing?

Usual Disclaimer: Not all of these things are guaranteed to ship and are subject to change.

##Project Goals

Crit users have an item path they are excited about.
Crit users have defensive options that fit into their core builds.
Crit users become more satisfying for all levels of play.

Let me know what you think either in thread or on twitter @RiotPhRoXzOn. I’ll be reading feedback over the next few days.

##Defensive Option in first 2 items http://i68.tinypic.com/wi3g2a.png

##25% Crit Items, Kirchei’s Shard Buff http://i64.tinypic.com/20qhyza.png http://i64.tinypic.com/317cfgz.png http://i63.tinypic.com/28spspc.png

##Essence Reaver, Spear of Shojin Change http://i63.tinypic.com/28s7uco.jpg http://i67.tinypic.com/55owas.png

##IE http://i63.tinypic.com/23mqzrr.png

##Last Whisper Component Buff (Final Upgrades Unchanged) http://i68.tinypic.com/10xy743.png http://i66.tinypic.com/282fjnl.png http://i64.tinypic.com/m8ljbd.png

##Other

822 Comments

420 grams1/15/2019, 1:23:05 AM124 votes

I like the changes but phantom dancer going down to only 30% attack speed will probably make the item not worth getting.

CubeHunt3R1/15/2019, 2:39:13 AM93 votes

alright:

not a fan of that Phatom Dancer change. should stay like it is now. item-fantasy wise feels more like a "dance around in a battle". like it does now. Rapid Firecannon, Statikk Shiv, Runaans Hurricane didnt really change at all. these items are fine. Essence Reaver thank god. the current one is so niche that most of the champs that would use it cant use it since its a very aggresive choice Spear of Shojin since this item doenst really exist yet i cant say much but i found the other version with like the damage reduction a cool idea but on certain champs maybe broken. Infinity Edge i think this version is way better than the current one. but you could make a new item that has the effect of the current IE with like the true-DMG. more items are always good! Last Whisper, Lord Dominiks Regards, Mortal Reminder are fine Stormrazor i found the idea of the "Energized Stormrazor" from Crit Item Explorations a cool idea; or maybe like when stormrazor is charged it has like an AOE hit around the target you hitted

if you want to make a "Defensive PD" item 3046 make i a complete new item. More items are always better

saltran1/15/2019, 1:17:35 AM79 votes

I'm crying for that ER, that was the part I hated the most about crit rework.

Rebel Phoenix171/15/2019, 4:44:55 AM55 votes

**Phantom Dancer **

Still hate this proposed change. Make spectral waltz work on ADCs by increasing it's radius. Leave Lament as it is. If the range on the MS is abused by melee hypercarries (lookin at you yasuo) then make the radius scale with attack range, or be locked at melee=550 ranged equal=650/700?
Introduce a fifth zeal item if you want a defensive crit item.

Kirchei's Shard

600g price point still makes this a pretty shit item. I'd almost always take double dagger over it. Exception being I only have 1 item slot. With only 15% attack speed the passive simply does not make up for the stats.

RFC/Statikk

Exchanging 5% crit for 2% movement speed is reducing the gold value in most cases. On ADCs with 325 ms, 2% is an increase of 6.5 (or 7.4 with t2 boots). If you feel those two are overtuned thats another matter. Otherwise its just shaving of ~110-120 gold efficiency.
I agree with only giving 25% crit chance, but maybe a bit more value elsewhere? Unless, as I mentioned, you want them to be a tad weaker.

Hurricane

Just straight loses 200g in stats? No compensation? Do you honestly think it's out of line with the others that it shouldn't get something back?

Love it.

Spear of Shojin

I'm curious to hear a Red's thoughts on the passive it has in Nexus Blitz. Were you not satisfied with it, so you gave it Essence Flare? Or do you think Shojin's passive has potential but you aren't ready to add it yet?
This is going to be even better for the current ER abusers (looking at you Renekton), but I'm not sure what ADCs will love it. Most that were buying it liked the mana refund, and considered Essence Flare passable (its not the most efficient combo for Lucian; Varus fared better using it in teamfights to get additional spell cycles). Separating those two, I'm not sure who still wants it. If its intended for ADCs at all...

Nothing special. Not really sure how this will land.
Slightly cheaper, 25% less amp and 5 more AD than old version - I feel like this just puts us back to the old crit issues.

Huge buff to LW's gold value. Now it actually feels like getting it has some value relative to its upgrades

Galiö1/15/2019, 1:27:22 AM41 votes

I like the direction of these changes so far, but I feel IE still is in a poor direction even if it goes towards the old one.

Also I feel Zeal items should still go in the direction of lost chapter, where it can give more critical but some of the crit would be 'unique' to prevent purchasing 2 of the 'primary' crit items. If assuming there is 3 or 4 zeal items to primary.

So then second crit item can be a situational item. 'Defense, utility, something cheesey' etc...

Then third can be the big boi item. IE or something else.

Most games end at lvl 14 and at 3 items so the game should be looked at through that lens. Especially for now.

Edit:

Phantom dancers build path is janky, if you want to go down the zeal as standard-set item (like lost chapter for mages, tiamat for bruisers, and stopwatch for....defensive options) I'd change out zeal, especially since you lose crit to upgrade.

Also I'd make spear of shojin cheaper or offer more AD.

Second Edit:

i made my own change list where i think can be a more interesting direction, if anyone is interested.

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/t5evHwqr-regarding-the-planned-critical-item-changes-what-i-would-do

RestTarRr1/15/2019, 9:35:06 AM37 votes

Phantom Dancer - The item is already overshadowed by it's competition and this is putting it further in the gutter. How is that not a straight up nerf? Lost 15% AS, 5% crit, 2 passives + 100 gold pricier only to have that 280hp shield and 2% MS. The item is straight up garbage with these changes.

RFC, Statik, Runaan - don't really see why zeal items are taking a hit. Literally went from all of this items getting some stat shifts(more AS and/or MS to lower 5% crit from all of them) to straight up nerfing items that weren't even dominating the game. These changes make no sense. And the crit loss was justified because IE actually had good crit chance on it.

**Infinity Edge **- That's even worse than the IE we have right now. With these stats this will never be an item that you want to rush. So why would you want 25% crit damage boost and only 25% crit chance when even the current shitty IE does a better job at being a complimentary item. Make the item 35-40% crit like in the last exploration and if that's too strong then nerf the crit boost to 20% or something. That would actually make the item desirable as a first item purchase. And it might make crit ADCs playable again. If the point of IE is to remain a complimentary item to other crit items then 225% crit damage is way too little, either increase it or also add the % true damage onto it if you don't want old IE back in full force. Though I don't see why you'd buff the crit damage instead of the crit chance when you said you don't want ADCs 2 shotting squishy champions as the reason to rework IE in the first place.

Essence Reaver/Saber - really glad to see that you decided to get old ER back(sort of) and just make the new passive into a new item. Would be nice for the caster ADCs who liked getting CDR but couldn't.

Stormrazor - without reworking the item it won't have a place in the game. The only reason people are buying it is because other items suck too much. When they stop sucking, this will just be forgotten. That's why your 1st example of a rework sounded as an OK way to keep it relevant in the game.

Last Whisper - I like that you kept it almost like it was proposed last time. LW just feels useless atm and this would definitely help a bit, for that awkward state where you only have a small LW. Don't know why this wasn't buffed ages ago.

Overall thoughts - apart from LW and ER finally getting a revert + making a new item for the "urf passive" everything seems like a huge let down. It's almost as if the point of this changes wasn't to buff an underperforming role of champions but just to say "here guys we buffed crit adcs", when in reality you aren't doing that.

From the first crit exploration to this one it's like: from big stat shifts to AS and MS(but still overall buffed) + IE that actually is good to straight nerfs across all crit items with the only exception being that ADCs are getting a crit item with CDR that is actually useful to them. I really don't think this ER soft revert justifies doing nerfs to all crit items.

You'd need IE+ER+2 zeal items for 100% crit or IE + 3 zeal items and both options are exactly 100% crit. How did that even happen? That's just god awful and makes an already hated aspect of ADCs(RNG around crit) feel even worse. How are all items eating nerfs when this was supposed to make crit ADCs better? The only positive changes here are ER revert and LW finally not being 1300 gold item for 10 AD and 10% armor pen.

Every single one of the 3 things you listed as things you want to accomplish with these changes is a big bust in my opinion. The only thing exciting here is finally getting ER back(to an extent). Everything else is literally worse than what we have at the moment. Sorry but I am really struggling to find anything nice to say about all of this. Love that LW would finally be an item and that we are getting an ER that isn't garbage on ADCs but everything else is a big joke. The role is underperforming, your guys even showed data on it on beyond the rift, showing just how much it was underperforming, and the answer is to nerf crit itemization while bringing in old ER and IE but way worse? I was really excited to see the new proposals even though I didn't agree with the direction a lot of the item reworks were going last time. However, I am sad to see that the items aren't going anywhere. The only direction they are going towards is the nerf hammer. Even without the very high expectations set by the IE presented before(40% crit, 70 ad, "reasonable boost" which is ~20-30% for 3400) nor the other stat buffs this would have always been a let down because it's just nerfs to the items we currently have in the game. Nothing here changes the power curve issues that were supposed to be fixed. These changes don't give you any/more agency in the early game and even make your late game worse. It's less power in all stages of the game but now we gave you old ER. What? I was disappointed we didn't get the changes in 9.1 as we were promised but it didn't feel too bad because we knew we finally would be getting some buffs which could make the role playable and fun again. This post just solidified my choice of only spamming cassio/heimer/syndra/brand/yasuo and literally anything that isn't an ADC(to be exact, only those who build ADC items). Extremely strong at every stage of the game while also being way safer during the late game. I just hope pro play doesn't suffer for it. It wasn't fun at all watching those fiesta games in spring. Don't know what stats you guys are working with behind the scenes that we don't have but I don't see a single logical explanation for someone to propose these changes. Usually when people say they'd make a role/item better they buff things, not nerf them.

Solari Fortune1/15/2019, 1:32:58 AM36 votes

Are there still plans to have Storm Razor changed up?

Juggernacht1/15/2019, 3:11:10 AM36 votes

Feedback from a top laner: The loss of PD is big for several crit based champs that would much rather have damage reduction and movespeed for dueling than a shield on low HP, think Tryndamere, Yasuo, weird Mundo builds, etc. Not to beat a dead horse but I'm extremely dissapointed that we lost Atma's, and shocked that we're about to lose Shojin too. I kind of understand the reasoning for splitting ER into two "versions", one focused on crit users and the other on bruisers, but I'd much rather see that in addition to Shojin, rather than instead of, as I think they both fill interesting and not contradictory niches.

Regarding the changes from the point of view of ADC, I think they're alright, I like the idea of having core crit items that you then go into additional secondary crit items, but I do think that it might make sense to make the ADC items similar to mage items in that ADCs have a choice of a few (2-3) items that give everything they need, attackspeed + AD + crit, filling the same role as a crit based bork. Stormrazor was supposed to fill that role, but instead of disrupting the existing items Riot tried to shoehorn it in and caused numerous problems.

One commenter mentioned a couple potential builds, but consider the following: Stormrazor gets reworked into a crit version of Botrk, which is what it should have been from the start, giving 25% crit, a small chunk of AD and AS, say 20% AS and 20-30 AD or something, and either no passive or a small passive like you can crit against towers for 125% damage or something. Then from there crit ADCs can go into a situational crit item, PD for defense/more kiting, RFC for more range/energized attacks, Zeal for waveclear, Essence reaver for spellslinging, or straight into IE to help snowball. Then they're able to finish their 3 item core build and go into more situational items like Bloodthirster, QSS, GA, etc.

This method would allow ADCs to choose a core item that provides them everything they need much like mages do, and then go into more situational items, with IE serving a similar niche to Deathcap does for mages, GA acting a lot like Zhonya's, Maw acting like Banshees, Frozen mallet acting like Rylai's. Add other situational items that already exist, and ADC itemization already looks really well rounded with the repurposing of only one item.

ShadowParker1/15/2019, 1:25:03 AM33 votes

Please stop trying to make an URF item.

Take that off Spear of Shojin please and give it something else.

Familiar Faces1/15/2019, 3:45:57 AM31 votes

-Negative on PD change, Like the live PD (survival tied to skill expression) more than this one (hexdrinker thing) -The crit chance changes are fine -Welcome back old ER woot woot -Positive on the IE change -New ER here to stay woot woot

MAY I LEAD1/15/2019, 6:15:57 AM29 votes

Phantom Dancer;

Hate the removal of damage reduction. Huge nerf to dualist Critical Strike users, like Yasuo, Tryndamere, Kindred, Draven, Kalista, Lucian when he goes Critical Strike.
Attack Speed nerf also hurts these champions. Particularly Yasuo.
Lament and Spectral Waltz > Lifeline. By a lot.
25% Critical Strike Chance is actually very good. It means now no matter how many Critical Strike items you have the chance will always be a ___ in 4 chance. In example, with one Critical Strike item you have a 1 in 4 chance. With 2 you will have 2 in 4 chance. With three you will have a 3 in 4, and with 4 you will have 4 in 4.

Rapidfire Cannon, Stattik Shiv and Runnan’s Hurricane;

25% Critical Strike Chance is fine and there are no other changes so I’m good with this.

Essence Reaver:

Very good. I like everything about this.

Spear of Shojin:

I personally like the Bruiser version of this item better, but this is pretty good.

Infinity Edge: This is ok, only problem is the Critical Strike Damage passive needs to go back to 250% or maybe, you could make it so it starts at 225% and it grows to 250% with the more Critical Strike Chance you have.

Last Whisper, Lord Dominik’s, and Mortal reminder’s;

I like this. It makes building into Lord Dominik’s Regards much smoother.

ØrnnToGetTrolleÐ1/15/2019, 1:31:56 AM29 votes

**Placeholder Name ** sounds broken

Solari Fortune1/15/2019, 1:29:28 AM25 votes

I am so happy for the return of ER for marksmen Ashe Sivir Xayah and my Crit Fortune missed it so much

Also I like that Cloak of Agility has been resurrected from the dead

FlashDoubleDash1/15/2019, 2:39:01 PM23 votes

Honestly, I don't see ever how these changes accomplish your goals. Ill go by the points and explain why:

- Crit users have an item path they are excited about.

So, crit items are all down to 25%, which is fine tbf, but to reach 100% critical strike chance you need to have 4 crit items. On top, IE still feels necessary for the attack damage that it gives and if you're not a mana-adc then ER will still feel bad. That's fine, but that means you have 3 attack speed items and 1 attack damage items to go through for your 4 items. That leaves only 1 slot left, which feels a lot worse than the current 2 spare slots. Especially since most adc's will still be building the storm razor because it just feels like an actually good adc item.

- Crit users have defensive options that fit into their core builds.

So, just phantom dancer? Which was already defensive? And actually scaled with sustain? And supports? I mean, be very honest, how much does a 280 shield really matter when the item itself has such low stats? At least throw something more to it, if you want it to be that item. Plus, why the hell remove the dueling characteristic of the item? The PD change feels horrible all over the place. And since now crit marksmen have to go 4 items crit (to feel good, or they are just off worse than before) it really doesn't give much room besides that for defensive options in their core build, unless they go literal stormrazor > fighter items. Which, where's the crit then?

- Crit users become more satisfying for all levels of play.

There's no good early item outside of stormrazor to be added, ER change doesn't make it a broader item perse and IE feels like a really gimped but mandatory lategame option. How will any of these items make them more satisfying to play?

Now I have been thinking myself about what changes to make and it's partially inspired by Phreak. Ill go by how I'd attack the goals step by step and then propose a couple of token changes:

- Crit users have an item path they are excited about.

This means that at every item they should feel a spike, that is as standalone as possible as crit can be. At no point should an ADC feel forced into the rest of the items just because they are going crit. The multiplicity of crit, attack speed and AD already fulfills this roles quite hard so lets not try to force this even more.
However, there should still be item "synergy" where items together work well. This means that build paths actually feel as such. An example can be drawn from fighter items because they do this well, while it shouldn't be drawn from tank items because they don't do this well: Fighter items complement weaknesses that never lock you in choice but the choices feel impactful. Tank items however are generally stat balls that hope to make the tank last longer at which point choices feel meaningless moreso.

- Crit users have defensive options that fit into their core builds.

Defensive options can exist in multiple variations. Sustain (lifesteal, vamp, regen?) , anti-burst (shields) and general (resistances/ %dr). Since lifesteal is already very availlable for adc's, this is a lot less of a priority but it does mean that crit items shouldn't be locked into a 4 item path. Alternatively, crit items can be broadened to also have this option, but there is the chance both yasuo and tryn might poach that which is the major issue there. It could be a ranged only item though which would work. Anti-burst and general are the more likely 2 types of defensive options, and while these already exist outside of crit, only current PD does it somewhat. But that's very duel-focussed and doesn't offer much vs an assasin who kills you before you react. I have a very big opinion on defensive options for adc's though: They need to be a lot weaker, as they shouldn't be common to build, it feels bad for an assasin or diver to not be able to do their job.

- Crit users become more satisfying for all levels of play.

In short, I interpret this as crit has to be satisfying at 1, 2 and 3 items because low elo likes to brawl, aram earlier and doesn't generally get to experience end-game in a fair way. Farming up 5 items is harder and it's rare to reach sivir's 500 cs wincondition. So, there has to be competition for not only stormrazor, but also a solid 2 item and 3 item path.

Alright, so let's get into it. Firstly, I'd like to state that I'd be an extreme proponent for a systematic crit change (that goes along the idea of replacing chance with critical strike power, which simply amplifies all your attacks with that %damage, which can be done quite straight up but it also shouldn't take away too much of ashe's uniqueness. I have a lot of game design reasons why that's the actual way to go, but that's a longer post, so let's just assume we're changing items only).

**- Zeal items: **

Currently item 3086 item 3046 item 3085 item 3087 and item 3094

I'd like to think zeal feels a bit bad to have to build in first item. A big reason for this in my eyes is the movement speed, as it doesn't really give much power until later on. Same with the critical strike chance. Besides that, there's a lot of daggers going into the items. So, let's do this:

item 3086 : Builds out of longsword + brawlers gloves, total cost - 1100 gold ( down from 1300)

15 AD
15% critical strike chance

item 2015 Builds out of dagger, total cost - 1100 gold (up from 800) Now also grants +5% movement speed

_Now zeal is a better farming item while shard is a better kiting item. And it gives a baseline AD to crit items. _

item 3087 Same path, cost up to 3000, build path is now 1100 * 2 + 800

15 AD
30% attack speed
25% critical strike chance
5% movement speed Same passive

item 3094 Same path, cost up to 3000, build path is now 1100 * 2 + 800

15 AD
25% attack speed
25 critical strike chance
5% movement speed same passive

Their path is probably more satisfying now to build earlier. These items look like they are good stand alone items but without AD they aren't really. These changes should help while keeping them balanced overall

item 3046 (very experimental, drastic change) Builds out of zeal and recurve bow, total cost - 3200 (up from 2700)

15 AD
40% attack speed
25% critical strike chance
5% movement speed

Spectral walts: Movement speed bonus down to 5%, radius down to 500. Now has a new passive (replaces Lament) - Attacks against champions deal 1% current hp true damage, healing you for the same amount.

More focused on the dueling aspect. Dueling generally likes defensiveness but being able to focus out tanks without completely busting them (current IE) makes more sense. It also gives a slightly better feel for yasuo/tryndamere while reducing their overall PD spike (less crit) and the passive is slightly less powerful on them (since they are more around dealing the big crits)

item 3085 (slightly experimental, doesnt need the energize if that's too much) Builds out of kircheis shard and zeal, cost up to 3000

15 AD
25% attack speed
25% critical strike chance
5% movement speed Wind's fury same New passive (bolting strike?) - Now also energizes attacks, energized attacks deal 50 - 80 bonus damage and grant +20% movement speed for 1 second

As this item is often already complementary to on-hit builds as well as useful on some other crit marksmen (ashe and jinx come to mind), it feels in a good spot. It is however, generally build on less mobile champion and some of the movement speed could be shifted to the passive, but that part is not necessary, but this is the reason kircheis shard is in the path (also makes more sense the ms is still there this way)

Other items (spoiler, now also Zeal items)

Currently only item 3031 . That feels bad doesn't it? Let's change it. We have some room left to explore. With the zeal changes we can confidently say that build path's feel better early and midgame, there's some synergy but it's not necessary and Pd is already filling the sustain role without giving crazy lifesteal. So, let's propose some items:

item 3031 Builds out of zeal + B.F sword + zeal, total cost 4000

70 AD (2250)
30% critical strike chance (1200)

New passive: The sharpest blade - Attacks against champions or epic monsters grant +5% critical strike chance, +5 AD and 5% armor penetration, up to 4 stacks lasting 4 seconds.

_Infinity Edge really should hit that fantasy of the marksmen dream where it makes you a damage god. Being a 3-item god is a bit risky though, so I think pushing it towards a high price is worthwhile, especially considering zeal items also gained a bit of power. However, it's risky if it's reverted to a burst item (anti-squish etc) so I made it more into a sustained dps item. _

item 3161 Builds out of Zeal + Caulfields warhammer, total cost 3400

50 AD (1750)
15% critical strike chance (600)
10% cooldown reduction (250)

New passive: Dragon's patience - Grants +5% critical strike chance each 0.5 seconds up to +25%. This bonus is consumed on critical strikes. New passive: Dragon scales (active) - Gain 20 armor and magic resistance for 5 seconds. Resistance penetration is 50% less effective on you during this time. (cooldown: 90 seconds)

_The concept of spear of shojin being a crit item is interesting, especially if it also keeps it's defensive aspect. Now I personally like the idea of keeping it as an overlap between fighters and marksmen so making it not be completely reliant on critical strikes feels better. _

Hextech shield-bow-cannon Builds out of Zeal + Stopwatch + pickaxe, total cost 3400

50 AD
25% critical strike chance

Passive - Lifeline: After taking 300-1000 (based on level) damage within 3 seconds, gain 100 (+10 per level) adaptive shielding for 5 seconds, based on the highest damage type you took. Triggering lifeline activates Adaptive Blasting Protocol (cooldown 90 seconds) Passive - Adaptive blasting protocol: For 5 seconds, gain 25% critical strike chance and critical strikes grant 20% of the adaptive shield.

So, apparently im at the character limit, but here's my concepts

Rathar Dashing1/15/2019, 2:04:47 AM23 votes

I feel like this is a stealth nerf to every ADC that doesn't use ER. We get less crit chance from a Zeal item, less crit chance from Zeal+IE, and MUCH less from two zeal items plus IE. It also makes it much harder to hit 100% crit, and makes the passive on stormrazor only hit 190% with a zeal item. 25% crit chance only really made sense in the scope of having IE double your other crit chances, allowing for a flat 100% at three items. Also, IE's new damage conversion is just such an ugly number, 225% seems so arbitrary, I'd rather spend 4k gold on it and have it give a nice 250%. 225% is less than current IE against any target building armor, especially those who build Tabi's, or Randiuns.

Pusha Man Jagger1/15/2019, 11:06:34 AM23 votes

The reason it was called phantom dancer is because of ignoring unit collision and %damage reduction... Now it's just a critty alternative to steraks/hexdrinker and has nothing to do with phantom dancer. I'll be upsetti spaghetti if you ruin my phantom dancer like this

Terozu1/15/2019, 2:25:11 AM21 votes

So, a total revert back to the old crit items?

With I.E. just flat out nerfed instead of fully reworked? An Phantom Dancer's defenses being limited?

Heisenderg1/15/2019, 4:17:06 PM17 votes

DON'T CHANGE PHANTOM DANCER PLEASE

Cristiano2991/15/2019, 9:03:22 AM16 votes

This is completely troll, right? Besides last whisper everything else is a direct nerf compared to live.

Crit users have an item path they are excited about. Crit users have defensive options that fit into their core builds. Crit users become more satisfying for all levels of play.

This post is insulting.

First of all, since the IE rework to what it is now, if you are adc you have to build 120% crit , meaning that you lose 20% crit gold value. This is ridiculous not being able to make a normal 100% crit chance build. If you want to carry as adc nowadays you either have to be super-fed or have gosu skills and a dedicated support (in diamond+ where the real game is). Plus the marksman class has the smallest champion pool , yet you cannot balance it. Instead, you post some ideas that make crit super good and now you post ''your conclusion'' making crit even worse. I 've been doubting the community's opinion about balancing the game, but this post makes me doubt you too.

My ideas compared to live from an adc perspective:

nerf -5% crit in zeal items but recude gold cost -200 & keep IE the same but true damage 10-->15%
remove true damage from IE and revert IE to 250% crit damage , keep the double crit passive , make it more expensive like 4k gold + nerf -5% crit chance to zeal items without reducing gold

You have to focus on the problem! The problem is not that crit builds are BAD, they are NOT. But if I start the game looking into a crit build, as an adc, I would have for example to go BF & zeal item= 4.1k gold VS botrk=3.4k gold, the botrk wins over . My POINT is, that you have to sacrifice a lot of power early and mid game to get that crit build spike late when completed, and that power loss often loses you the game before you even get to that point, or even if you do then you have -most likely- given unnecessary gold to the enemy team through deaths. So, you either make crit more gold efficient, or you straight buff crit... I mean, am I crazy or something? Cmon maen, why you do me like that?

Häxel1/15/2019, 2:56:24 AM15 votes

I mean it is kinda cool that adcs get their item 3508 back, but holding on the current Essense Reaver and fullfilling the promise to implement Spear of shojin into the game by simply renaming it and giving it it's icon feels realllly cheap. Now i would have hoped even mroe you would have just simply added item 3161 and item 3005 at Patch 8.12 instead of withdrawing the changes cause Critchanges shaked up allready to much the players. Cause now Crit gets mostly just reverted with little changes (Ie and Er) and all what Skirmishers, Divers and Juggernauts got out of it over the last year on Items and keystonerunes fromt he new System are the current Essense Reaver and Conqueror. The item without Defensive Stats or abilities is only godo if you snowball allready on champs like Renekton & Jax (with Conqueror it kinda breaks Jax) and Conqueror feels also not balanced: Fighters who do not go PtA have the weaker early Game but just blatantly make Tanks feel useless in the lategame.

Like i know some Rioter said that Atmas felt to much competing with Titanic and spear with Steraks, but then they come to the point that Spear was more diffrent then Steraks but atmas would not come. And i felt allready there the opposite as Spear looked far much more like a Hybrid between item 3053 and item 3812 :Reducing strong Burst but also lowering the impact of Burstcombos in extended fights. And we got recently a nice Buff to DD too that remvoed the item a bit out of beeing a nicheitem. But item 3005 and item 3748 ? Maybe Titanic was once designed as a Tankitem that increases the Damage of Health stacking targets, but it completly failed to do so as Tanks and more then half Juggernauts just get Items that make them far more tanky as Titanic and if they want Damage, they also get other Items. Like Titanic is an AA-reset - Onhit Item for Irelia & Shen and gets sometimes used as waveclear whenever Ravenous Hydra just feels worse on Tiamat Champions (current meta seems to favor far more Ravenous but whenever you see Shaco building Titanic, you could feel both Hydras get not used correctly when a full Ad Assassin favors Health scaling item instead fo the High Ad item). And even on Titanic Metas (like whenever the Basestats are just better or Grivious Wound Items get meta favored so Ravenous feels worse) you just rush Tiamat and finish Titanic as one of the last Items most of the times as it is just not worth to upgrade.

A champion like Nasus sure could use another Damageitem and Autoresets may seem cool, but it is just far more effective to build after the 20% CDR Sheenitem just full tank. And do you see Titanic on these Champions?: Aatrox Darius DrMundo Garen Illaoi Volibear Urgot (Urgot can't get neither Tiamatitems nor Steraks and if by no crazyness he starts now getting the enw Phantomdancer , he will remain with the samelimited itemchoices). You have here either wacky Lethalaty/ad builds that seem only to work good on Aatrox at high elo, Phageitem into Fulltank builds or just Fulltankbuilds.

Or do you see Titanic on these Vanguards Gnar (limited too) Malphite Maokai Nautilus Ornn Rammus Sejuani Zac Poppy (yea her w/extended R let Riot call her a Warden even if she mostly just charges in with e anduses short r ) ? Their idea of going Damage is Sunfire/Cinderhulk, Thornmail and either Iceborn or Abyssal - these add good Damage at the Laning Phase and can make Tanks even feel to strong sometimes (nice sunfirebuff lul) but Lategame you add nearly nothing on damage and just are a meatshield that Adcs and lightier Bruisers can easily blow away (ofcourse critchanges can change the metapriorities again).

And item 3005 would be a great addition that theoretically any of these could use as a coreitem or a situational item. Thats why i wished it would have been added with Spear 8.12. so that even now with the Critchanges atmas would have stayed as a more stable item as the last new Items (current Essense Reaver, Stormrazor, Spear) and Spear for beeing to close to be the same with DD and Steraks could easily be removed for the sake of gettign old ER back while holding on the current one.

I hope people at Riot rethink again their desicion they have made about Atmas and/or start also thinking again what will happen with the Balance of Bruisers/Tanks when the Critchanges land, as a PtA Lategamebuff and/or a Conqueror rework and/or a new Fighterkeystone for the sake of every Toplaner and Junglefighters may be appropriated.

Spideraxe1/15/2019, 1:24:48 AM14 votes

Hey Phroxzon can I ask why you wanted to move Spear away from durability item

Morning Raven1/15/2019, 4:17:01 PM14 votes

Please stop messing with Phantom Dancer. You're removing the dueling niche in exchange for poor defenses. It messes too much with the other melee crit users and this is supposed to be helping marksmen. Clutch saves are already annoying and too many people pick Phantom Dancer for the unique aspects it already brings. There are times where I go "PD is my best choice this time" compared to the others.

Actually, if you really want that new Phantom Dancer with the shield, reintroduce a reworked Spellbreaker for that niche then. It has too nice an icon to not use for something. Make it ranged only built from Zeal + Hexdrinker. Or, if you don't want it just MR/new Hexdrinker, take that new PD recipe you have and recolor/update the Ionic Spark icon (it's the last 'archer's bow' icon besides Light Bringer you got, perfect for a new Zeal item, and having a protective aura fits with its design a bit). Cloak and Dagger with Lifeline instead of tenacity would work too. You have some options.

Last Whisper items are fine except I still don't get why you would ever go LDR instead of MR since their last rework.

I like seeing old IE and ER return but the gold efficiency is pretty bad there. Glad to see Cloak of Agility back (even though aren't cloaks usually defensive items and wouldn't that item be good to use for a defensive build?)

You shouldn't have to remove Shojin in order to keep new ER. The divers do need some love, with reworks, even if you don't bring it in now. With the talk of removing Conqueror they're going to need something so leave this item as an option. It's a good idea to separate the ERs into two items, but how about instead of making new ER into Shojin, you use a recolored Sanguine Blade and give it a new name? Sanguine got reincarnated into Blood Thirster so itss niche is already filled so the icon is up for grabs.

darkdemond20011/15/2019, 1:34:28 PM14 votes

Dear riot, this changes are a trash and that new phantom dancer shield passive is not going to do shit, think about something else because this ain't it.

boricCentaur11/15/2019, 1:26:44 AM12 votes

So no item 3095 changes since what is the point of building it if item 3031 goes back to the way it was? Also I really like spitting up item 3508 into two item.

rayzo1/15/2019, 1:33:45 AM12 votes

I love everything except the PD AS nerf.

Wukong Airlines1/15/2019, 1:46:09 AM12 votes

Why did you change Spear of Shaojin to make it work on hypercarries like [Yi, Jax]?

Part of why Wukong won't get a rework is the introduction of Bruiser items that would make him viable/semi-playable as a bruiser and shift his playstyle from the BS assassin type. Why do you always have to fuck things up and give items more AS steroids?

BoneMalone1/15/2019, 6:08:33 AM12 votes

First comment ever on boards. But as an ADC main and frequent PD user, I am not a fan of the PD changes. I just feel like PD is fine the way it is now

Godalor1/15/2019, 2:40:34 PM11 votes

So uh, if Phantom Dancer is no longer going to promote the "dancing" playstyle and instead just makes it okay to take damage is it going to get a namechange?

contrary to what other people here say I do have something against how Phantom Dancer currently works, I think the 1v1 damage reduction mechanic is too strong and getting the full brunt of movespeed from just one enemy champ being near you is too strong aswell. I'd suggest removing the 1v1 damage reduction and buffing the movespeed so that you get more and more movespeed the more champions are in range, so basically:

Phantom Dancer

No stat change

UNIQUE – SPECTRAL WALTZ: Grants ghosting and +4% movement speed for each visible enemy champion within 550 units, maximum 20% bonus movespeed

UNIQUE – LAMENT: Removed

That way you can get +25% movespeed overall from a single item in teamfights, making dodging easier and making "dancing" around the fights actually achievable, satisfying and nice looking.

If you are completely set on the shield idea, make the shield somewhat weaker but implement a movespeed burst when it procs, something like this:

UNIQUE – LIFELINE: Upon taking damage that would reduce health below 30%, grants a shield that absorbs 100(+10 per level) damage and 20% movement speed, decaying over 5 seconds (90 second cooldown).

This way the maximum shield would still be 280 at level 18 and weaker before that, but you open up other survival possibilities. You could even play with the idea of the movespeed boost resetting with a takedown.

ModThe Djinn1/15/2019, 3:58:11 AM11 votes

{quoted}Let me know what you think either in thread or on twitter @RiotPhRoXzOn. I’ll be reading feedback over the next few days.

So this may be a bit odd, but I'm slightly disappointed here, and for an unusual reason: I was hoping for a bit more divergence from the same patterns.

To lead with the positive: I definitely understand and respect the choices made here, and in most cases I think the directions are extremely solid (save for Phantom Dancer, which I feel loses some of its unique identity without the ghosting mechanic and being the best choice for bonus movement speed -- this version feels like just another Hexdrinker variant). So on the basis of "is this an improvement" I'm inclined to say "Yes, absolutely. Well done."

That said, I'm not sure the items are divergent enough to make Marksman itemization feel exciting or full of choices. Marksmen have never had the wide variance of interesting and engaging items that other roles have, and I feel like that causes some of their item dissatisfaction. Instead of the feeling of "I just got something awesome!" it becomes "I haven't built enough crit," and so I'd have liked to see some experiments that push towards more active, utility, or pattern-altering items.

BorK aside, carries have never really had any items significantly deeper than "attack" or "cast some spells." Even Essence Reaver's old incarnation leaned into the "just cast your ultimate" space. Meanwhile, other roles get meaningful pattern or output altering items that I don't think any of these (save the new Spear of Shojin) come close to replicating the experience of. Here are a few of the ones I'm referring to:

Archangel's Staff (pattern altering + active in the upgrade)
Deadman's Plate (unlocks a new engage pattern and gameplay around minimizing CC to maintain the buff)
Duskblade (unlocks new vision-based rewards -- including damage -- for good gameplay)
Gargoyle Stoneplate (grants rewards for specific playstyles and positioning, and an active with big timing benefits)
Hextech GLP-800 (item active)
Hextech Gunblade (item active)
Hextech Protobelt-01 (item active that unlocks a new mobility option)
Iceborn Gauntlet (more utility than +damage and can be opted into in place of the +damage Trinity Force on many champions)
Knight's Vow (opting into power donation)
Lich Bane (unlocks auto-attack based gameplay even on non-auto-attacking champions)
Locket of the Iron Solari (item active)
...

The list goes on, but I think the principle here is fairly solid. Marksmen -- despite having one of the simpler gameplay patterns -- tend to also have simple itemization options. I'm a bit saddened that this exploration doesn't seem to push very far outside of of that pattern by giving us ways to more meaningfully diversify how we use our auto-attacks or how much active engagement we want with our itemization options.

Moody P1/15/2019, 2:21:50 AM10 votes

when are you guys going to consider more actives in defensive/offensive gameplay? you could solve a lot of problems by adding counterplay through building into specific active items, especially for carries, instead of shoring up heavy damage builds with innate passive defenses. it'd also give you a little wiggle room to help enchanters since they wouldn't be so desperately shackled to their squishy piss-awful defenseless marksman

>changing spear of shojin to essence reaver and not giving me my AD->defense item

you better not, that passive is an abomination and needs removed.

SHlKASHl1/15/2019, 2:01:16 AM10 votes

Really strange changes to Phantom Dancer. You're removing Lament from the game entirely in favor of giving yet another way for players to pick up the Lifeline passive (which is frankly lazy design imo). Any melee who would buy PD before this change likely won't anymore, and it will disappear entirely as a situational item for toplane. Not that this was your concern. That being said, not having Lament will make it harder to play ADC against things like Kled and Darius, especially in lower MMR where teams are not as good at peeling them, and ADCs often have to tank more hits from them than they should have to. Really really don't know why you guys want to get rid of Lament entirely just to make it easier for ADCs to pick up a Lifeline item. It is a really nice passive in the right situation.

nizzy2k111/15/2019, 4:04:07 AM10 votes

i think most of these are ok. ill list my thoughts below

I don't think needed to be changed so much, maybe just make its current effect only kick in at below 50%
For , i hope this does not mean you would be removing the one intended for bruisers that got shoved into nexus blitz. that item along with could give more and interesting options for bruisers especially if made melee only.
For i liked the doubling effect and with the 25% crit chances it would prevent from being a first buy for anyone and opening up another slot for ADCs to get , , or .
while i don't think should stay in as is i do think another crit modifier item that locks out the buildpath should be in the game to let casters like , , and gain something from crit and have that as an option. this should probably be ranged only as well so and trynd don't abuse it.

on another note about marksman builds, they should probably be discouraged from building into lethality like MF, Jhin, and Varus have both currently and in the past. the quick fix is to make items with lethality melee only but that feels drastic.

For hybrids like Kaisa and Varus , they should probably get pushed into a hybrid/on-hit build path through other balancing measures if that is what riot want them to be else they lack an apparent build and are not very intuitive to learn. right now it seems like neither of them should be itemizing crit but it's hard to say, maybe the item 3508 change helps.

oh and if item 3095 stays in the game as it is this whole change to the ADCs from 8.11 has been a massive failure. it should have been removed at the start of preseason regardless of balance and meta.

Artoriosis1/15/2019, 3:17:20 AM10 votes

That current Essence Reaver/ possible Spear of Shojin Passive is so niche that it's next to useless on most champions and extremely unfun to play against when enemy champs CAN build it. That passive makes Fiora, Jax and such extremely frustrating to play against. There is little fun in playing against a Jax who can gain 3 seconds of free time with his e, (2seconds dodging and reducing aoe damage, stunning for 1second) while doing massive damage, and then the e is back up in under 2 seconds for another 3s of taking extremely reduced damage.

The fact that the passive gives attack speed on top of this insane ability to spam your defensive spells is just hilarious. Jax has been a permanent ban for my soloq games for over 2 months now and the few times I've forgotten and played against Jax reminded me why I have Jax permabanned.

Funny thing is I don't mind jax - as long as he doesn't build essence reaver.

Could you please reconsider having this passive on ANY item.

Pokemonred2001/15/2019, 3:28:55 AM9 votes

Still not a fan of item 3046 's current passives and stat line being lost in favor of a shield. Especially given ignoring unit collision was always a major part of the item, and it feels like we're losing a dueling item in favor of a generic shield (which is only going to be particularly useful against AD assassins, since Maw's magic damage shield blocks 70 more damage and gives resists). It also makes me sad that we're losing the ability to build item 3046 + item 3053 on melee champions, which was a niche build I'd always loved.

Calcul8or1/15/2019, 12:33:38 PM8 votes

My thoughts as a D4 ADC main:

item 3046 PD change is straight awful. The extra attack speed was a big reason to get it, and the new passive is also bad. Shield needs to be bigger or scale with levels. It would only be useful for a few minutes and then it's back to getting one shot. item 3094 item 3087 RFC and Shiv changes seem really good! (MS change is much welcome) item 3031 item 3508 IE and ER are basically nerfed versions of their old selves, which is fine if you "nerf" the Price too... item 3161 Spear of Shojin does not seem viable on ADC (which is fine) item 3035 LW seems good. It's a joke on live tbh.

Swoodington1/15/2019, 5:17:16 AM8 votes

I love everything but the Phantom Dancer change. That item is basically Steragg's for ADC. Not needed and I personally think Phantom Dancer is fine as it is.

WolfAchilles1/15/2019, 10:33:18 AM7 votes

So, me and my fellow trynd mains are 100% screwed. We lose 15% attack speed, 5% crit chance, and, if you take the passive into account, 5% movespeed off the only zeal item that is usable now. So phantom dancer is crap, shiv is crap ever since the nerf to its waveclear (and phantom dancer was always the stronger item let's be honest). Essence Reaver is.... ok, but we lost 10% cdr and 10 AD so it's still not great. I edge is nerfed too. Can you folks at riot please for a moment remember that not just Marksmen use crit items. Also, why in the name of god are we keeping the "press r and your abilities have no cooldowns" item passive in the game? It's useless on most and completely broken on some. Can anyone honest to god tell me that fighting a two item Jax (trinity and essence reaver) is fun? Even hashinshin, HASHINSHIN, has admitted that the item is broken on Jax. Remove that piece of garbage from the game please. TL;DR Please leave phantom dancer the way it is, or at least create an item that is identical to its current form. Make the item melee only if you must or just create a new zeal item that satisfies your desire to create a defensive zeal item. Please Riot remember that people play melee crit users, not just crit marksmen For the love of god, remove the "Press R and have 0 cooldowns" item passive from the game.

Nevrankroaton1/15/2019, 7:07:45 AM7 votes

If you want quick feedback:

I am kinda worried that PD giving a shield make it feel very generic, the previous passive sucessfully mitigated damage and I think it felt more cohesive with the item name/feeling. It is like a "ADC Sterak" and I fear it create some abuse case with such high number (or will it scale with lvl?).

The only other thing that bother me is IE being back at a "DMG more" item. I rather have it either convert crit in some kind of bonus stat or be a "stronger tank melting" option. You will tell me, LW get buff... But I feel it make IE be again a plain item.

CØulrophobia1/15/2019, 9:12:28 AM7 votes

What is the point of lowering crit chance to 25% if you are going to remove double crit chance from IE? Are you mocking us? This entire time you could reduce cost by at least 100GP and removed the extra 5% crit chance from crit item line making a beautiful 25-50-100 transition without us feeling like we are wasting 20% crit chance when building 2 crit items plus IE. And now that you are reverting IE you are lowering crit chance? OMG where do you even get these ideas?

Kalmah1/15/2019, 3:07:10 PM7 votes

you forgot about melee crit champs like Tryndamere/Yasuo, Master Yi D:

ME IS SMARTER1/15/2019, 5:57:53 PM7 votes

Why is everyone excited about Spear of Shojin ? Am I missing something , or you guys are actually airheads? It's literally the same shit as the current Essence Reaver, but weaker and it costs the same. [zombie-brand-facepalm]

ZaneShadow1/16/2019, 2:18:24 PM7 votes

So, I’ve been reading a lot of the discussion, so for anyone joining now, here’s a quick breakdown of the common opinions:

item 3046 people are not too big a fan of this change idea. Not because the shield is bad, though some argue it is, but because the loss of the movement passive. Melee crit users rely heavily on this passive for a number of reasons, so it’s loss is a hard one. Many people are hopping for the introduction of a new crit item with this shielding passive than a rework of Phantom Dancer.

item 3508 Perhaps the most universally praised change, people are very happy to see this items return to crit builds. One complaint however is it feels rather simple for its gold cost, though only time will tell how true that is.

item 3094 item 3087 item 3085 fairly well accepted changes. Some say that perhaps a bit heavy on the movement speed, but overall a good direction.

item 3031 perhaps the most dividing of the changes, there are many opinions on this. The leading one is that reverting back to the old Infinity Edge solves nothing. Others argue that this is the only way to balance them long term. It also reintroduces 4 item crit builds, something few if any are excited about. Many, if not all, preferred the three item combination to reach 100% crit. As if allowed greater build diversity for each specific champ.

item 3161 the remains of the current Essence Reaver, players fall specifically into two camps: Love or hate. As it is a “nerfed” version of the live one, time will tell which camp is correct and if the passive is able to be balanced or not.

item 3035 item 3036 item 3033 universally liked, with no current nay sayers. Impressive with over 600 comments.

Based on all of this, here’s a changelist that could potentially rectify common complaints listed above.

item 3031 Infinity Edge Builds From: Pickaxe + B.F. Sword + Cloak of Agility + Gold (3400 total)

70 AD
Deal 225% damage when you critically strike instead of 200%
Double your critical strike chance. If you have 0% critical strike chance from other items or abilities, gain 10% critical strike chance.

item 3046 item 3094 item 3087 item 3085 Untouched except reduced to 25% crit. Phantom Dancer same as live but 25% crit.

item 3508 the proposed changes, returning it to a crit item.

New Item: item 3637 Light-Bringer Bow Builds From: Vampiric Scepter + Stopwatch + Cloak of Agility + 750 Gold (2800 total)

30 AD
10% lifesteal
25% Crit
Passive: Lifeline — when you take damage that would lower you bellow 30% Health, gain a shield that absorbs 280 Damage for the next 5 seconds.

item 3161 proposed changes, though with the promise to watch it closely.

item 3035 proposed changes

This is far from a perfect list of changes. The goal is to propose solutions to issues the community have found with these changes.

Lükê1/24/2019, 12:18:41 AM5 votes

As an ADC Main I had to log in and make my first post. These changes accomplish none of the goals you've set out. Currently in lower elo ADC's are far too team reliant, and are not fun to play. (I'm in gold and I often duo with my friend who is in silver). None of these changes make sense and are direct nerfs (with the exception of LW).

Riot.. What are you doing? I love the idea of marksmen and have spent my entire time learning how to play them. They have the smallest champion pool and no viable build options... ESPECIALLY if you're put behind in lane because you were given an autofill support who thinks yasuo is a support champion.

I was super excited when it was announced that Riot was looking in to changing the game for marksmen and making it more enjoyable but please, if im wrong, please compare each item side by side and provide your insight. These are nerfs.