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Heimerdinger Changes for 7.10 (Request for Comment)

RiotNot Surrendering·5/2/2017, 4:51:00 AM·149 votes·101,056 views

Overall Goals

  • Make Heimer less oppressive against melee, which gives us room to buff him (specifically, reducing the amount of punishment melee champs take when being ambiently in range of turrets and tagged by the "pheromone" mechanic [Heimer's attacks and spells tag champions, which cause turrets to automatically target them]).
  • Increase Heimer's viability in midlane.
  • Buff underperforming R options, so that RQ is not always correct.

General Thoughts

  • Heimer has historically been a tough champion to just buff in isolation because of his tendency to ambiently destroy melee matchups.
  • When he is strong, usually results in non-interactive lanes by pushing them in constantly.
  • Attempting to absorb the general counterplay of "dodge spells" into the turret gameplay and subsequently be able to make them stronger.
  • We know that Heimer players enjoy playing him for the turrets and so, we are trying to find a way to make the turrets have better gameplay without isolating Heimerdinger players.
  • Heimer is generally more performant the lower MMR you go (or worse the higher you go), meaning that when Heimer is "viable" in higher MMR's, he will usually be absolutely destroying lower MMR.
  • In this sense, it is desirable to inject some skill into his kit to allow him to be more viable in higher MMR without breaking lower MMR.

Changelist

Stats

  • HP Regen: 2.2 (+0.35) >>> 1.4 (+0.11)
  • With new passive, doesn't need abnormally high HP regen.

Passive: Hextech Affinity (P)

  • Moves 20% faster around turrets (SR turrets and his own turrets) - 300 range.
  • Gives him a reason to play and maneuver around turrets apart from damage.

Turrets (Q)

  • Base Damage: 12 / 18 / 24 / 30 / 36 (+0.15) >>> 6 / 9 / 12 / 15 / 18 (+0.3)
  • This is a large nerf and significantly hampers early game ambient turret damage in laning phase, but builds back up in mid game
  • Cooldown: 24 - 20 >>> 20
  • Turrets can hold: 1 / 2 / 2 / 3 / 3 >>> 3
  • Beam attack time to charge: 16 >>> 50
  • Greater emphasis on landing spells to have your turrets perform (in laning phase), rather than autonomously destroying people
  • Mana bar (for beam attack) changed from blue to white (instead of having a blue bar on top of another blue bar).

Rocket (W)

  • Mana Cost: 70 - 110 >>> 50 - 90
  • Cooldown: 11 >>> 11 / 10 / 9 / 8 / 7
  • Each rocket hit on champions charges 20% of each nearby turret's beam attack.

Grenade (E)

  • Grenade hitbox: 210 >>> 250 (stun hitbox stays the same)
  • Cooldown: 18 / 16 / 14 / 12 / 10 >>> 12
  • Make it less punishing to fish for E's in lane
  • A successful E hit on a champion charges all nearby turrets to full beam charge.

General thoughts on R Spells

Big Turret (RQ)

  • Given that RQ doesn't consume a cooldown, this is likely to be used in a lot of cases. Didn't feel impetus to change it (was exploring some iterations where it was used as a sieging tool (attacks slowly, but has high range and low in-combat value to nuke down turrets).

Big Rockets (RW)

  • Still feel like this spell is usable on follow up CC and sometimes off a grenade stun hit, but didn't feel comfortable increasing its damage.

Big Grenade (RE)

  • Base Damage: 150 / 200 / 250 >>> 150 / 250 / 350
  • AP Ratio: 60% >>> 90% ** RE on live is usable, but given that it consumes your E cooldown, it COULD be more powerful.

Would say candid feedback is most helpful. Want to see which things people like/don't like.

700 Comments

SexyBabyJesusZ5/2/2017, 4:59:22 AM81 votes

MAKE BANNER OF COMMAND ZZROT HEIMER GREAT AGAIN

edit: holy shit the amount of dislikes i was joking guys

Ralanr5/2/2017, 4:55:24 AM79 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fizz Enthusiast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jIEZxfck,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-05-02T04:51:00.482+0000)

Overall Goals

  • Make Heimer less oppressive against melee,

http://funjetinsider.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/HallelujahSquirrel.jpg

LankPants5/2/2017, 5:03:28 AM74 votes

Base Damage: 12 / 18 / 24 / 30 / 36 (+0.15) >>> 6 / 9 / 12 / 15 / 18 (+0.3) This is a large nerf and significantly hampers early game ambient turret damage in laning phase, but builds back up in mid game

Any chance we could get a change in this exact vein on Zyra's plants? This sounds like exactly what she'd need to actually be balancable between mid and support, numbers withstanding of course.

Other than that this looks like a solid change on paper, I'll have to actually see it to know though.

ClatoVerataNicto5/2/2017, 6:00:47 AM64 votes

Am I the only one that feels like turrets are currently too easy to invalidate mid/late game? If I had the time to place them in anything but an ambush they are easily wiped out.

Rexxiee5/2/2017, 5:47:24 AM30 votes

Sounds like a huge nerf to him tbh.

Trashing his base damage on towers might be too much, as ppl will just ignore them and kill him instead.

Having a higher ms around a tower doesnt matter when the tower itself does nothing until you have 3+ items (where this is supposed to break even).

I dont see how this makes him better against ranged too, now he has 1/3rd of his old health regen and his towers do nothing, if you wanted to play a W/E heimer you'd just pick any other mage in the game.

If he could somehow control the beam cannon from the turrets then he would be better against ranged (so his turrets wouldnt be completely useless against anything beyond their 500 range) while still skill reliant.

Kaeliwien5/2/2017, 1:57:56 PM19 votes

Heimer OTP here, peaked at Plat last season.

Most of the things are nerfs to heimer and not solving his issues. He even has a hard time on Toplane vs melees if they just focus on his turrets. some toplaners have so much mobility, they wont even get hit by his beam already live. If they would do less dmg, then they can just go in. I dont know why you want to nerf it even. +20% speed will not solve his imobility. You cannot kite anyone if they go straight forward for you. As you do less dmg early, why they should not do it?

heimers issue is, the turrets getting destroyed so fast. every opponen, who knows how to play vs heimer, will focus them. The only advantage currently is, that heimer is rarely played, and a lot of opponents dont know how to play vs him. this cannot be his only strengths...

if he also looses his HP regen, he will get bullied out of lane even worse. this is also a nerf. in some matchups he coudl rely on his regen and stay in lane.

all i read there are nerfs. and not making it any way better. basically you say heimerdinger is strong and needs be nerfed? well... if thats the strategy...

his issues are:

  • Turret HP, they are cleared faster then you could even place them
  • Teamfights, you cannot setup all 3 turrets for an immediate teamfight. if thats wanted, then they need be stronger.
  • immobility, he cannot escape any ganks, so he need to face them most of time 2on1. +20% movespeed wont make him escape. he has no slow.
  • NERFS to heimerdingers items. Banner of command and rylais.
  • If enemy is building MR first, he is also very weak. basically every toplaner will build hexdrinker, and after this, he is done.
  • TP summoner spell is quite useless. you cannot TP to other lane and use 5 seconds to setup your turrets...

please dont nerf him to oblivion...

Xonra5/2/2017, 10:22:51 AM18 votes

As a long time Heimer player (but just don't even bother anymore because you just can't play him mid and not near instantly lose), I would say, some of this is fine, some of this had me going "O_O wha...no".

His new passive seems pointless. All he got was some movement speed? What even is that? The one thing that you don't care about THAT much with Heimer is 20% more movement speed, which realistically isn't going to be noticeable to be honest. Any time you need to be faster, will be AWAY from turrets and towers, not near them, so it seems a bit of a wasted passive 100%.

I think this could be something better put into his Grenade to reward you for hitting it like, movement speed stealing. They are slowed, and you are sped up. His play style seems like it should focus all on his pushing, lane dominance (much like Renekton is a lane bully, why shouldn't Heimer be the mage version?). He is immobile, and I think his playstyle should reflect that, but that passive isn't going to make him more mobile, and just feels like he is losing power.

From what I see of these changes, none of this is making him better in any regard. Huge nerfs to his turrets, which alone makes it pointless to play Heimer over another mage. You are removing his passive to give him basically a barely noticeable speed boost in very specific situations.

The change to his E is the only change I see that will actually be felt in a positive way, but the Turret nerfs are a bit silly in a negative way, and only are going to force him to be played even less. I see nothing here that made me go "yeah, this will make me need to be more skillful so people can play this at a higher level". All of this made me go "why do I want to even bother playing Heimer now, let alone in mid lane?" He already had a million bad matchups against the meta mages, and this will absolutely make him worse in mid.

"We know that Heimer players enjoy playing him for the turrets and so, we are trying to find a way to make the turrets have better gameplay without isolating Heimerdinger players."

You did nothing but nerf the turrets. You nerfed the base damage for a ratio that won't matter until laning phase is almost over, and with the nerfs, he won't make it through laning phase, because people won't be afraid to just out right kill his turrets now, and any junglers will laugh off the early damage, making him completely unsafe, and again, a bad idea to play. The only reason he isn't a free kill in mid is because junglers don't want to just dive him like every mage, so he can play safer. If his turrets are weaker, then the rest of his kit does nothing to help him. Unless you get a perfect stun, the grenade isn't stopping a gank, and his rockets aren't great unless you have the follow up or they are the follow up.

I see zero "skill" injected into his kit, and it just looks like hitting all the points that make Heimer, Heimer, and no gameplay or "skill" added. Just nerfs, and some tweaks that seem to be changes for the sake of change.

ModWuks5/2/2017, 5:55:09 AM17 votes

Buff underperforming R options, so that RQ is not always correct.

Honestly, RQ is the easiest combo, but that doesn't make it the "only correct" option. The R-E combo is incredibly high impact and is my favorite empowered spell to use. But hey, if you're going to buff his kit, I have no objections :)

Additionally, I've shifted away from playing Heimerdinger, especially since the Rylais nerf. If you can dodge the beams, you're pretty much set because the turret autos do negligible damage (especially against tanks). Sweep up the turrets and you've got a 4v5. Reduction in overall AP plus more viable MR items on top of items like RFC one shotting turrets just makes for Heimerdinger to be alright in laning (oppressive in some situations), but falls off quickly during seiges (at least moreso than in other seasons).

Xoxo -- Season 5 main

http://i.imgur.com/kLJosWK.png?noresize

Piltover Customs5/2/2017, 6:06:22 AM16 votes

@Fizz Enthusiast , Sorry I got into a game right as this was posted so I'm getting to it 45 minutes late (Probably an hour by the time I'm done posting).

Thank you. I was figuring he would get hit with the nerf bat too hard. I'll link my original post: Here Where I talk about what can be done.

I made a Heimerdinger guide over a year ago that's still strong and the best for him. Give it a read to see my thoughts on him in laning. Here Initial impressions is it looks like it's a LEAP in the right direction.

A lot of what I mentioned to shift some power is incorporated (Lower Turret Recharge, Lower CDR on W/E while adding some damage).

I had an 80% win rate last season from P5 -> D3 with 200~ games as Heimer. That number fell to 65% and ending of D5.

Heimer is generally more performant the lower MMR you go (or worse the higher you go), meaning that when Heimer is "viable" in higher MMR's, he will usually be absolutely destroying lower MMR. In this sense, it is desirable to inject some skill into his kit to allow him to be more viable in higher MMR without breaking lower MMR.

That's the reason I stated my Win %'s. Heimer is strong in the right hands. I understand wanting to make him easier for people.

Now I'll discuss the changes:

Passive: Hextech Affinity (P) Moves 20% faster around turrets (SR turrets and his own turrets) - 300 range.

This will piggy back into the Turrets but some of the power (in terms of how much to be shifted to each ability) that Heimerdinger had was that he healed his turrets when around them. Turret health is low early and will die to random minion attacks. (I think the Minion AI needs to be looked at as they will sometimes target the turret over creeps).

Turrets Base damage down with double the AP scaling late game. 3 Charges at all ranks and a 20 second recharge rage Beam attack tripled+ (but abilities will have recharge on beams

I see this as a good enough approach. I personally would like to have the bonus (50%) damage that melees get to the turrets removed if they are going to have the damage cut in half.

Heimerdinger won't be building a lot of AP early at all. (Even mid lane he has to go Rylai's first or Morello). With their damage effectively neutered until you get 3+ items I would like them to live a little bit longer (they already die fast if people actually attack them, ESPECIALLY early).

I don't see any mention of the beam damage? With the beam attack being increased and you having to rely on hitting spells to charge it (because that's pretty much the gist of the matter there), is the beam damage being increased or staying the same?

Would it be possible to have a faster cooldown on his turrets? Since we are staying with that as his core/theme then I feel that a 20 sec recharge (12 sec with 40% cdr, which you would probably never do) is still high for late game. I'd like to see an 8 sec (with 40% cdr) late game recharge rate. The main thing being even an 800 health turret dies REALLY fast late game and not being able to use them neuters you, ESPECIALLY if you are behind.

Rockets Mana down, scaling CDR Charges 20% of nearby turrets

You have 5 rockets that come out. (Each additional is 20% of the first).

What happens if the beam is at 80% charge, and all 5 rockets hit? Will it now be at 80% again? (100 ->20% ->40%->60%->80%) What if it JUST fires? Will it immediately fire a second? Are all 5 rockets coding seperately so that I will not lose a 20% charge on a point blank rocket?

I like the rocket change, the scaling and mana cost really gives him poke for mid lane again and MIGHT make him competitive to meta champs (Mind you take a look at that post because he still has a lot of hard counters for turret gameplay).

Being able to only put one point into Q for 3 charges and work around my W/E is very nice and opens up more playstyles.

Grenade Hitbox increased slightly Flat 12sec instead of 18 Full beam charge on champion

Is the hitbox increasing the slow/aoe? Is it a STUN charges turrets to full beam?

I think you could probably make it so that a STUN charges all beams rather than the AOE. The aoe is rather simple to hit and seems like it would be too strong.

Upgrade!!!! Lots of talk I'll just discuss.

So I think one of the misconceptions everyone is having is that the H-28Q Apex Turret (The UPGRADE!!! R/Q) is stronger/used more than it is.

Pretty much the only time I use R/Q is like this:

  • Still in laning phase and drop to have a 4th turret/slow/damage during a jungle gank 1v2
  • Dropping to harass/take first turret
  • When Canon minion is taking turret aggro, drop so it last longer, zones and does damage.
  • Doing baron at 20 minutes
  • Tanks aggro and does a lot of early damage so 3 turrets + me and another can duo it.
  • Solo'ing Elder

Once I am out of laning phase I very VERY rarely drop my ultimate turret. It dies to smite + a couple of attacks. It can be moved (Sion E, Syndra E).

Rocket damage should NOT be increased. If anything a very minor drop off in damage would work for it. If enemy has no MR a stun + RW will kill most carries.

Big Grenade

I separated this because I feel it should be talked about more.

Increasing the damage and the aoe is BAD.

I personally really love it but it will be overtuned. I pretty much engage/disengage all fights after laning with my ultimate grenade. It's what makes him shine in team fights. (Kiting through Heimer turrets isn't beneficial late game in higher ELO because they die super easy and are outranged by ranged ADCs).

While it is true it consumes your E cooldown it SHOULD. It's an AOE slow + stun. I feel that probably 50% of Heimerdinger power and 80% of his teamfighting late game is R/E. You can Slow + stun someone with your ultimate grenade. Adding more AP ratio makes it stupidly strong.

I think the base damage increase is fine but if everything else stays then the AP ratio can NOT be increased by that much.

El Condor Pasa5/2/2017, 4:10:03 PM15 votes

No changes on turret HP? Zyra's plants and Malz's voidlings are tankier than Heimer's turrets. I can't go a game without my turrets instantly dying because someone had the mind to actually attack it once. Meanwhile, other pet champions are spamming their spawns at effectively the same or greater frequency and duration because the cooldowns are lower and they don't die unless the timer runs out.

JudasLover5/2/2017, 4:31:48 PM13 votes

Why would you ignore the fact that any ranged champion destroys his turrets effortlessly? Holding more charges is no good if you don't make the turrets tankier (or increase their range).

Inuyuugi5/2/2017, 6:23:47 PM12 votes

I have to say, this is a terrible change and short-sighted in the developers plan to make Heimer more "Killable". I love to play Heimer and I almost have my Mastery lvl 7 with him. I dont have time to play Ranked and I play only one game a day or so. Heimer lets me relax after my day and now, because of SOME people, I cant play him anymore. His early game is difficult enough, but in a good way. I have to play around weaknesses and focus strengths. Now though, I dont have an early game and you say by powering him up late game, I would win? But if i dont have an early game, how would i get to late game? or mid game?

"Make Heimer less oppressive against melee, which gives us room to buff him (specifically, reducing the amount of punishment melee champs take when being ambiently in range of turrets and tagged by the "pheromone" mechanic ")

So you are saying, if i complain about other champs, I can nerf them? Okay then, Yasuo moves too much, i want less movement speed on him so i can land a skill shot. Brand has too much AOE, I want less AOE on him if the spell lands near a Champ. Syndra's Ult shouldnt target Champs because she can melt Champs too easily.

The point of Heimer is that i can set up a "base" and push the lane. SOOO many champs can kill my turrets with just their Auto Attack and ALL the champs in the League of Legends can use Spells to kill my turrets. Now, champs are being REWARDED for early Ganks against me cuz now i have no Damage. What the Hell is the logic. Give Heimer no laning phase so he is killable, and push him out of lane so he cant level and then he never levels to go to mid game and never reaches late game. I can already hear my teammates yelling at me for having no gold and items because my early game is gone. Gangplank is gonna destroy me even more. And i already have trouble with Darius, Nasus, Riven, ETC.

the point im trying to make is, just cuz ONE SINGULAR champ counters some champs, doesnt mean you nerf the one champ into the ground. that is unfair, illogical, and makes no sense that cuz i can counter some champs, i should be punished for it.

I will post more if you want to hear more of my side (sorry if i sound angry, just trying to get a point across...)

BIAKaboose5/2/2017, 9:32:27 AM11 votes

Personally, and I don't play a ton of Heimer mind you, so this may be entirely invalid, I think that buffing turret HP is way better of a step in the right direction than love tapping his base damage and doubling his scalings. Otherwise you're going to get turrets that hit like trucks, and die to a stiff breeze. If Heimer's turrets are supposed to be a major influence on his gameplay then we should stop making them so expendable.

Heimer already has problems fighting pretty much any ranged poke mage which is why he is sent top to bully the melees because his turrets die so easily to one or two cheap spells that are usually AoE while the enemy laner is just wave clearing, or you have to put your turrets so far away from minions that they are way less effective.

I would say make turrets scale harder at longer ranges and give them more HP, this makes him actually viable against ranged mages, and gives melees the option of getting in close to him without getting shredded once they're there and he throws literally anything at them. It would make certain matchups top lane with melees really tough as compared to now around my elo where he just sort of wins for free against everybody but Nasus and Renekton, and make him not be countered by... every popular mid laner except like, Talon who still does relatively well against him, and Fizz who just destroys him at level 6.

NullDragon5/2/2017, 9:29:31 AM10 votes

Nooooo, my regendonger is nerfed :(

Having a ludicrously high base HP was so fuuuuun when you built nothing but items that scale off HP regen. Become the mini-mundo!

SSj Heimerdinger5/2/2017, 5:40:22 PM9 votes

Heimerdinger Heimerdinger Heimerdinger

Heimer player since Season 2, that's right two turret man. Got from silver to diamond with Dingdong, wrote a guide that's top tier, played thousands of games with him and made a lot of videos around him which are popular on youtube for their Heimer plays. Right off the bat riot doesn't know what Heimer needs, they show they just known what outside sources need (melee champs).

www.mobafire.com/league-of-legends/build/s7-ready-a-true-saiyans-power-s5-diamond-player-226279

The passive is contradicting and makes no sense. When Heimer faces melee champs his biggest asset is his MOVEMENT SPEED because most melee outside of Riven have very little gap closing abilities. When a jungler comes one, all it takes is smite and his big turret is gone, an auto and so is his mini turrets. High elo players know this. Heimer has garbage cs and his ability to kill turrets are really bad, I find myself never getting first turret anymore no matter how aggressive I play. You people are living in the past with outdated notes about Heimerdinger.

**Solving Melee / Turret ignorance : **

You ruin Heim's early for no reason other than to cater to melees? You want catering? Force a fight or flight mechanic. For every nearby turret he gains a small AP-Scaling shield and bonus scaling AP. When outside of it, he loses the bonuses and is weaker than live Heimer, make it apparent that he needs his turrets to be strong and players will attack it, look at Yasuo. Even Yorick has the same mechanic, you can tell his Ghouls are the source of his damage. If he is damaged his turrets take a % of the damage depending on the turret closest to Heimer, this way the enemy can focus on the other turrets. This mechanic forces players to manage when to stay or leave, it also encourages players to stay and place turrets to survive, in stead of simply popping Zhonyas when you see someone. This rewards saving your turrets for ganks but rewards enemies for clearing his turrets or kicking/pushing him away from them. Which is what melee like to do, gap close you into a corner. Maybe for a passive make it so anyone near his turrets gets the shield but maybe a reduced version. Make the shields regen ONLY if a new turret is placed, allow the regen to scale off his regen. This is healthy for supports and for showing players what to attack.

**QoL : **

Increase heimers attack speed or rotation animation, seriously this is an issue. I'm moving around a lot with heimer and his rotation kills csing. His turrets already are terrible at csing because they don't factor in minion MR and when csing under tower you need turrets to damage but mid game they end up making it impossible to cs under tower. This is a QoL to make him feel less sticky.

**Ultimate Grenade : **

Make his RE stun range wider, give him something akin to Sona, RE is usually a utility spell and used to execute fleeing players. Reduce its base damages and make it deal more to low champions (execute champs). This gives support Heimer some return since you dropped his passive. It also makes his ult feel like an ultimate since Heimer is basically a poke champ through and through without his ult, he's basically the poke version of Sona. Usually RE either starts fights or picks up fleeing kills.

Ultimate Rockets :

RW feels bad that's why everyone resorts to RQ, why RW with diminishing returns when you can exhaust and let your turrets beam finish them off and even continue working on others. When you fully land a Velkoz ult they die, fully land ANY channel spell the enemy dies. Fully land Heimer's rockets? Only 0 Mr dies. Drop his base damage again, give this % damage based on HP and make it so if fully landed it deals 30%-40% hp depending on AP. Make it so it starts bad (0.02%) but each landed rocket deals more of their base HP, so second would deal 0.05 for example. This rewards well-timed RWs and gives him something to deal with tanks. Seriously my turret shouldn't be the close range option! This also makes him viable when the enemy is just stacking HP against him like crazy. Aka tank meta, which is another reason to drop RQ, so you can bypass the tanks and hit the backlines in teamfights, since you can't do anything against tanks yet every other AP mage can.

Make both castable like RQ as they now play fundamentally differently.

These mechanics raise Heimers skill level by rewarding what Heimer is good for: tactical team gameplay without turning him into another assassin, it also increases his skillcap by nerfing poor ability usage (using his grenade to execute but miscalculating, and prioritizing squishies with rockets instead of tanks) but rewards well placed, strategized abilities.

**Another QoL : **

Also lower his ult animation before he can cast an ability or remove it OR make it so R abilities are free or make it so you can't cast during the animation windup, way too many times I end up ruining my combo. Making RW/RE not dependent fixes this. So does my other suggestions. Using your abilities by reacting quickly to cc shouldn't be hindered by a simple animation.

**Final Thoughts : **

Why do you keep forcing this beam mechanic when illaoi already has it? Why is it always the beams that everyone turns to? Ever since his rework it's been beam this, beam that. Beam is too OP, Beam needs to start at 70% oh wait 0%, Beam does too little, Beam is the only ability to proc rylai's / Liandries, "Beam is your main damage source". I hate them!

Heimerdinger is THE team champion, every Heimer main will tell you this, to pretend he's not is ridiculous, when you play Heimer people look to you for answers, they look to you for Baron calls, Dragon Calls, Split pushing, Team fighting. When you play Heimerdinger, you play the leader, you setup fights and take down threats. You lower the enemy to raise your team....TO RAISE YOUR DONGERS! This is why you play Heimerdinger, not to assassinate, you play to raise your dongers, you play to help your teammates because when your teammates are stronger, you get stronger.

...Also it would be nice if Heimerdinger got Chromas...Others will probably disagree and I'm probably really biased but a yellow blastzone heimer, red or even blue would be really cool, like a flame look or Saiyan look for yellow. Heimerdinger Heimerdinger Heimerdinger

Comrade Napoleon5/2/2017, 6:22:54 AM8 votes

I love the Donger he is my favorite champ, i have some thoughts:

  1. The passive is a great idea, love it.

  2. I see how these changes are making him less oppressive VS. melee, however, i dont see how they are increasing his viability in mid lane. I see nothing helping him vs mid lane mages, is that intentional? if you want him to be deliberately weak vs long range champs then arent you this way forcing him to be a mid lane melee counterpick? but then you are nerfing that. please elaborate.

  3. i see that the CD increase plus adding spell interaction is a way to increase the skill ceiling, however why isnt the beam damage buffed? shouldnt it be more rewarding? we are dealing with a "weak" champ right now, i think the general direction should go towards a buff.

  4. I think the RE changes are not in the preferred direction, In a perfect balance RQ is for overall team fight damage, RW for single target nuke on a CCed target, RE for a massive team CC to set up a rumble ult for instance. however RQ is dominating the rest as you mentioned. Increasing the damage on RE would either make it too powerful and becoming always the best choice or it will stay weak and overshadowed by RQ. How about increasing the stun radius or duration on RE or increasing the number of bounces, i think RE should always be the "utility" option for the ult.

  5. The 3 turret charges on lvl1 is my favorite change overall, please keep that.

LostFr0st5/2/2017, 5:31:28 AM7 votes

I think it's cool that the kit interactions were increased, and the idea of hitting stuff with other spells to charge the beam is interesting.

However, I don't quite understand the beam mana bar wording. Are you implying Heimer's bar changes colour when it's charged? Isn't that going to end in the awkward situation where a Heimer puts down a 'surprise turret' as the beam is done charging to get a guaranteed one or is that part of the change? And once he does that a couple times they'll just wait out the beam and then go in since he does 1/2 dps now early? Unless that's the intention.

I'm very worried about the health regen changes in particular. Not only is his regen almost halved, but the regen on his passive is gone as well, along with the turret repair mechanic. Idk if this will make him played more mid (He doesn't see play there due to them instagibing the turrets; this doesn't help) but it might make top less viable. In testing (if this was tested) does the 3 turrets early even this out? Idk if 20%ms at 300 range of turrets is equivalent.

Edit: Forgot to comment on the RE changes. RE is hard to dodge due to its long range and awkward hitbox. It might just end up as a low-counterplay AoE nuke.

Jar Jar binks l5/2/2017, 8:40:05 AM5 votes

Thats a nerf. Holy shit u are destroying his turret dmg, the Q nerf looks really bad. Maybe give him +3 base dmg per level and not 0,3

what you deserve5/2/2017, 4:56:09 AM4 votes

I don't play a ton of Donger but I'm definitely glad to see him being worked on.

Would making his turret missile speeds lower (easier to dodge) and not nerf his damage so hard be viable?

biomaster5/2/2017, 5:46:30 AM3 votes

This is probably a silly question but why does the RE have to eat up the cd? why not let hiemer make a big aoe stun splash in the team fight and have the normal e up after to priority lock someone specific or try to catch someone that escaped. That would proabbly a better buff then dmg (seeing as your picking RE for cc over RQ AND RW dmg. Plus i feel heimer always needed a buff in teamfights because aside from his RQ the ambient dmg that tends to happen in teamfights pretty often just murders his turrets and w and e have always felt a little too low impact in those 5v5s

aside from that the q nerfs seemed scary but i took deep breaths and read everything else, i love the new passive and the way the turrets interact with his other spells is nice and there were little buffs here and there so i think its fair over all.

Ben Sharpio5/2/2017, 5:07:59 AM2 votes

Can we make it so that sion E can deflect a bouncing heimer bomb?

Oakleaf Ranger5/2/2017, 6:20:20 AM1 votes

my two cents among all these shifts power is to increase his ultimate cool down for at least rank 1. I don't play Heimerdinger but one thing that I find incredibly strong/annoying about him is how low his ultimate cool down seems.