Patch Chat with the Playtest Team - 7.5, Aatrox mini-update

RiotAesah·Mar 8, 2017·1 votes·79,871 views

new "Minions" art created by inkinesss!

Hey guys! Welcome to Patch Chat, a Dev Corner thread we make to talk about our new patches every two weeks: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/patch-75-notes

I'm Aesah on Riot's Playtest Team, a group of Diamond+ players who play with the new champions, reworks, balance tweaks, items, and map updates before they are released. It's our job to the test the changes that our designers come up with and ensure that we're introducing positive changes to LoL in terms of both balance and fun. We'll be watching this thread to answer as many questions as we can.

In 7.5, Aatrox has a mini update aimed at increasing satisfaction playing as and against him. Fizz has had power shifted out of the reliability of the ultimate into the Q. Leblanc received a hefty nerf, hopefully taking her out of 100% pick/ban status in pro games while still keeping her viable for the playerbase. Miss Fortune has gained some incentive to itemize for crit. Rengar, Ryze, and Varus have received nerfs as well (Varus also receiving indirect nerfs through DFT/lethality, but he was finding too much success without using either of those as well).

For items, Blade of the Ruined King was changed to be more attractive to Marksman and also potentially as a first item, and Edge of Night has been nerfed to focus on "I'm using this to go in" rather than "I activate this at some point then run around with a shield". For keystones, Deathfire Touch was nerfed, Warlord's Bloodlust and Bond of Stone were completely replaced with new effects so it will be exciting to see how those play out. Finally, Exhaust was nerfed and hopefully we'll be seeing it less as a generalist summoner taken by midlaners and more of a focused, defensive summoner.

All of us on the Playtest Team are avid gamers so feel free to talk to us as fellow LoL players!

Adam "Afic" Cohen Ben “Cezium” Burkhardt Don “Aesah” Ding Nicolas “Gleeb” Haddad Dan “penguin” Hardison Robert “ROBERTxLEE” Lee Rob "King Cobra" Rosa Nicholas “Nickwu” Smith Blake “S0be” Soberanis Trevor “ThEntropist” Thernes Arnor "TheLastAirbender" Halldorsson

360 Comments

AamanoMar 8, 201716 votes

I'm a long time fan of Aatrox, and im wiling to put in more time to feel out the changes though they don't feel as well as I hoped

the one thing I wanted to try and bring attention to is how long it takes to build up Blood Well vs. how quickly it falls off

I think that after Blood Well activates when full, and then begins to drain, subsequent uses of abilities should still add to it while not attacking champions. Basically extending it's duration by another second or two

I know that while attacking Champions it refreshes completely, but I feel this could help his jungle and lane clear in the early game when it's much harder to quickly fill up his Blood Well

What situations have you had success with him? I've been struggling so far. I prefer to play Aatrox in lane but have felt bullied into the Jungle for a safer early start.

patmax17Mar 8, 20178 votes

The things I find most interesting in this patch are the changes to

Aatrox
LeBlank
BotRK

What do you think of these? Why do you think they were needed, what do you think they will accomplish and what are the risks?

RiotplaytestpenguinMar 9, 20175 votes

Needed to solve game health issues, initial tuning was probably off though
she was messed up
Botrk wasn't actually working as an item that shredded tanks for most marksman. I think this item is really strong now and wouldn't be surprised if it popped up a lot more now.

RiotAesahMar 9, 20178 votes

For Leblanc the main goal is taking her out of 100% pick/ban in pro play while not completely killing her viability in normal play. I was expecting a ~5% winrate drop in normal play (she was sitting close to 50%, which is too much for a very high skillcap champ), which would put her close to pre-rework numbers when she was considered fine.

The nerf is probably the largest since I've started working at Riot but then again, Leblanc needed a large nerf. I'd also expect to see a higher initial winrate drop because people would still be maxing W instead of Q which I'm fairly confident is better now.

At any rate, it's reasonably likely (NO PROMISES) that there will be further work done on Leblanc and we'll also like to watch how things settle.

(Leblanc is my highest mastery champ fwiw)

zaphod424Mar 9, 20174 votes

which would put her close to pre-rework numbers when she was considered fine.

Why was she reworked then?

Also, as a lb main, what do u feel about the rework as a whole? I mean., I know I, and most other lb mains prefer old lb vastly to the new one, the double click ult is clunky, the delay is crippling late. I understand she was very oppressive then, and did need changes, but I mean, come on, was this full rework really necessary? And further to that, what did it achieve, she was still really oppressive in lane, and her damage was insane, and it seems the only way to make her not oppressive is to nerf her to the ground. It seems like an impossible to balance kit.

i mean, idk how much u know on the topic, but is there a possibility that the rework may be reverted, and then some adjustments made, I mean, if I was in charge of her, ik exactly what I would do

Leblanc item 3070

SqkergMar 9, 20176 votes

She was considered balanced. She still struggled in terms of identity and counter play.

ChaosedgeMar 8, 20176 votes

Why does Riot seem to nerf champions that can to well in other lanes/roles ex. Sona when she was viable as a Midlane Mage then nerfed back into being Support Only?

RiotAesahMar 8, 201715 votes

Sona is really only "viable" in a solo when she's super overtuned as a support, considering almost all her abilities are team utility spells. But generally not every champion needs to be viable in multiple role.

AtaxiChaosMar 9, 20173 votes

How to make Sona viable solo without overtuning her as support: Power up her Q when no allied champions are nearby. (Support-wise, this would only change her ability to stave off minions when her ADC backs.) Hell, you could even call the effect "Solo" and it would fit her thematic.

EROTIC RAID BOSSMar 9, 201715 votes

but why would they. shes so simple that her interactions in lane are just like, are you in range then you take a bunch of poke

SpideraxeMar 8, 20175 votes

Hey guys any thoughts on new Galio on the PBE? How does he feel

InTheoryMar 8, 20171 votes

[deleted]

SpideraxeMar 8, 20173 votes

Actually they should have since they are Riot's playtest team, some of them were even on the stream yesterday

RiotS0beyMar 8, 20176 votes

Yeah we've played quite a bit of Galio. He's finally out there so we can finally talk about him! Yay!

{quoted}

Hey guys any thoughts on new Galio on the PBE? How does he feel

He feels like halfway between a tank and a mage. It's like playing Nautilus but with less CC and more ranged damage and wave clear. In testing he's interesting to have as your mid laner- since you can slot your tank in the mid lane by picking Galio it means you can run carries top or jungle and that changes the landscape of your comp in a pretty cool way.

SpideraxeMar 8, 20172 votes

Do you like the idea of a tank mid laner and what runes and masteries and build did you typically take on him

RiotplaytestpenguinMar 9, 20174 votes

Our runes and masteries differed, but I ran Magic Pen reds, HP@18 yellows, Flat MR blues and MS or AP quints (usually AP though for waveclear breakpoints early)

SiachiMar 9, 20172 votes

I definately like the idea of a tank mid laner: Seems like the closest you get are "Slightly bulky mages because they build health", so having a tank mid laner as an option is definately worth considering when EVERYONE wants to try and be the carry in a game.

sirwaterflesMar 9, 20173 votes

Swain says hello.

for real big part of the reason why i ever start maining the guy was because you could always go tank if you had yet another glasscannon Riven up top fighting with glasscannon Khazix about who should pick a tank. (back in the day were tanks meant something ofcourse)

SiachiMar 9, 20173 votes

I've admittedly never played Swain, so I just sort of lumped him in with the "Bulky mages who build health".

Actually, besides Rod of Ages, I don't actually know what he builds. Might have to look into this more.

sirwaterflesMar 9, 20175 votes

Rod then boots/zhonias and tada you got yourself an oftank with your ult you heal a lot and you can zhonia while ult so you can zone. heal and do damage while they cant do something to you. Now it depends. your team needs a tank? go visage to buff your healing and you now got 3000 hp with 120+ armor and 120+mr (dont know the exact numbers) which you can follow up with rylais for that extra hp and tons of slows and voidstaf because you will relay on base damages. Does your team has a tank or are you far ahead? rabadons is friend. Now you are a true mage that can ooneshot squishies as your e alone does 1000 damage.

RiotplaytestpenguinMar 9, 20173 votes

We play all new champions extensively before they arrive on PBE

CoolkippMar 9, 20171 votes

{quoted}

We play all new champions extensively before they arrive on PBE

Penguin please tell me. Do you really think riot's auto attack based juggernaut fantasy for Aatrox can actually pull through or not. His kit just doesn't seem to support it.

RiotplaytestpenguinMar 9, 20176 votes

Yes, I think he can pull through once tuning adjustments are made. I still can't wait for a full VGU but I do believe this kit is way better than old Aatrox in terms of game health.

VahlonMar 9, 20172 votes

.......Could you explain why you feel his kit is "better"? I played Aatrox quite a bit and this "update" just feels awful no matter how it's sliced. Full AD Aatrox is dead, there's almost no flexibility in build path now. He just feel like shit to play, slow build up and disappointing passive.

He's also no longer able to make hero dives/plays.........why would I play Aatrox over another functional juggernaut or melee carry?

RiotplaytestpenguinMar 9, 20176 votes

He no longer is a melee sustain draintank that wins lane by pressing E repeatedly, which is a large step forward IMO

Yes, he might feel substantially weaker for the short term. But that's why we monitor champs shortly after large scale changes and buff/nerf/potentially even hotfix.

World EnderMar 9, 20175 votes

If he's no longer a 'melee sustain drain tank' then what is he? That was Aatrox's identity, and it's been taken away because of his pitiful healing now, even when building full tank he'll never get the same amount of healing as before when below 50%. To me that was what made Aatrox Aatrox, he would fight until his last breath instead of turning and running. Now if you're low you'd better book it because you heal so much less (and even with tank items you're still squishy because of no defensive mechanics and terrible base stats).

I understand that his old E had problems (I'm an Aatrox main and that skill for sure did too much, if you could consistently hit it then you could chunk enemies down very quickly) but nerfing his healing and damage in the rest of his kit to make up for that while buffing his E damage is a bit of backwards logic don't you think?

My speculation is that his E only exists in its current form because the designers who made Aatrox said "he needs to have low base stats or he will run out of control. If he has low base stats, he will constantly get bullied out of lane and won't be able to farm. Let's give him a ranged poke skill to help him."

So, why not adjust his base stats and gut his E damage vs champions? I think at least in the short term it should still be a farming tool, but the pressure that it puts in lane in terms of damage is a bit too much.

The biggest problem IMO with this update is that it tried to make Aatrox into a tankier champion without adjusting how any of his abilities fundamentally work. His Q is still one of the worst initiation tools in the game, slow and interruptible, and his E is an unreliable skillshot that only slows. He has no other meaningful CC. Compared to other champions that sort of fit Aatrox's intended role with this update, it just doesn't compare. He still at his core relies on autoattacks way more than abilities, but overall his windowed passive and nerfed damage and healing on W make it much more difficult to succeed here.

My fear is that Aatrox will just turn into another Titanic Black Cleaver into tank champion like Renekton or Kled. This is not why I began playing Aatrox, and most other Aatrox players will agree. I do acknowledge that he needs to have the option to build tankier, but I don't think hitting his damage output to gimp the risky builds is the right way to do this.

These are just my thoughts, courtesy of a scrub, but I do know Aatrox and I know that these changes have made him significantly weaker at being the duelist that was his fantasy.

RiotplaytestpenguinMar 9, 20178 votes

you left out the main point of my comment -

that wins lane by pressing E repeatedly

obviously it's fine if he's a draintank, but cutting out half of the sentence is silly and unproductive.

FailogMar 11, 20174 votes

That comment right there tells me that you never EVER tried to main him in rank to climb. Frickin one of the easiest skill shots to dodge and also on a farily high CD

Your thinking on him is so ill informed, and you guys ignored 2 years of feedback from Aatrox mains.

You literally make me sick to my stomach. These changes were so poorly thought out, its mind boggling that you guys get paid for this.

Riotvo1d seekerMar 8, 20177 votes

I don't have many games playing as Galio, but I really like playing with him as a jungler. He sets up ganks well on typical mid lane mages and provides a lot of defensive support with his ult which makes me feel more confident to invade the enemy jungle.

SpideraxeMar 8, 20173 votes

On a scale of 1-10 how well did Galio jungle work for you and what runes, masteries and build did you take on him

Riotvo1d seekerMar 9, 20179 votes

Ah, I phrased my earlier response poorly. I like having a Galio on my team, either mid or top, when I'm jungling because of how quickly he can follow up aggressive plays from his jungler.

I've done jungle clears as Galio, but they were so slow/weak that I didn't feel he would be worth playing as a jungler in a full 5v5 match. When I did jungle clears, I would run AS reds, armor yellows, 9 x magic resist @ 18 blues, and AP quints with 9/0/21 masteries taking CotC as my keystone.

RiotplaytestpenguinMar 9, 20178 votes

Personally:

really annoying to lane against as a mage because of his early sustain
Early corrupting pot -> dark seal with TP is a really, really strong opener on the guy
really fun to make plays with his ultimate to save people
His mobility is pretty fair to deal with because you can bodyblock his E super easily.

SpideraxeMar 9, 20172 votes

Do you feel he still feels similarly to old Galio without the clunk

RiotplaytestpenguinMar 9, 20177 votes

I personally always played old Galio as a mage because that's what I specialize in -- but this Galio NEEDS to be beefy and frontline. He still feels like Galio to me because the mainstay of the character for me was always BIG TAUNTS, and he still brings that to the table for sure.

SlashStrikerMar 8, 20174 votes

Yo play test team

Why can't we PING retread? What are you testing exactly?

SlashStrikerMar 9, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Yo play test team

Why can't we PING retread? What are you testing exactly?

OK so i got (- 4) Thumb downs? Why exactly?

Is it because i wrote that we can't use Ping Retread? Or is it because i am asking "what is the Playtest Team testing exactly"?

When you ping Retreat it does the normal ping instead Retread Ping. How did something essential bypass into the new patch?

RiotplaytestpenguinMar 9, 201713 votes

Because LoL stuff is being edited and changes are submitted pretty much all throughout the day and oftentimes late into the night -- it is not as simple as "Oh, playtest dudes are challenged because we didn't notice a common feature being broken". I noticed in my first game of the new patch this morning.

Mysticman89Mar 8, 20172 votes

New bond of stone seems like it opens a lot of doors for 'new' tanky supports, who can now be beefy tanks who are indirect healers too.

Do you think many 'new' tank supports will see lasting play? For example, support Dr. Mundo seems promising, and I could see sup Nunu* being more viable now. Theres probably a variety of other tanky sorts that just needed that extra little utility nudge from new bond of stone that could be contenders too.

Were any less conventional supports tried with the new stoneborne pact during playtest, or was is mostly tested with more standard cc supports? If there was a lot of more standard tank support tests, do you think pact will generally be superior to CotC for supports (since survivability for carries>suvivability for supports more often than not), or will CotC still have a place on some of them?

*=actual support nunu being conventionally played as a support, not that whole smite business.

RiotplaytestpenguinMar 9, 20176 votes

An underlooked aspect of the new BoS mastery is that since it heals, champions that normally didn't have access to Ardent Censor can build it. I played a game of ADC with a nunu support with BoS plus Ardent and it was pretty decent.

CrettMar 9, 20171 votes

item 3174 ??? would this work too?

Dragonslayer RSMar 9, 20172 votes

I watched many pbe video of galio and found that he is very op in jungle. His clear speed is very fast because his passive, q and e all deal aoe damage. He can clear pretty fast even go full tank. His ganking is super powerful becasue he has tons of cc, mobility, damage and global ult. imo galio is super broken in jg unless you balance his damage.

RiotplaytestpenguinMar 9, 20172 votes

If Galio is broken in the jungle he would probably get jungle-specific nerfs, I believe Sol (Galio's designer) said something like this on the PBE stream.

CmK141Mar 10, 20172 votes

Are you guys purposely avoiding aatrox mains comments???

RiotplaytestpenguinMar 10, 201713 votes

What do you think we could say that would help? Meddler already announced that he's most likely going to get hotfix buffs. Responding to super inflammatory threads where they're just looking for blood isn't something that really makes me feel like my opinion is valued. We already understand that people are upset -- but that's why we're working on those balance changes.

BigDaddyTreMar 10, 20174 votes

{quoted}

What do you think we could say that would help? Meddler already announced that he's most likely going to get hotfix buffs. Responding to super inflammatory threads where they're just looking for blood isn't something that really makes me feel like my opinion is valued. We already understand that people are upset -- but that's why we're working on those balance changes.

By having riot actually listen to the community, specifically aatrox mains, telling them the changes were absolute garbage instead of win ratio's (hence why they had to fix ivern and bard and taliyah too) or have reliable things get off the pbe.

ProfDrDeathMar 10, 20177 votes

Reliable. PBE. Choose one.

You generally do not get good balance feedback from the PBE.

CarnicoreMar 8, 20171 votes

What do you predict will be the impact of the LeBlanc nerfs?

RiotplaytestpenguinMar 8, 20178 votes

big

SkiasMar 9, 20171 votes

Any thoughts, opinions or changes coming to Taric? I feel like he hasn't been touched or mentioned in a long time, so I would love to hear some balance team opinions on him, especially his Q. He has so much power tied up in his ult, it feels.

RiotplaytestpenguinMar 9, 20177 votes

I personally think he's a great example of a character with a unique power curve. He's weak in lane against most ranged bullies, but the raw power of his ultimate means that he's pro-play viable in certain situations. I'd be really disappointed if we tried to lower his ultimate's impact and make his laning better.