Patch Chat with the Playtest Team - 6.19, Kog'Maw un-rework

RiotAesah·Sep 21, 2016·1 votes·45,775 views

Hey guys! Welcome to Patch Chat, a Dev Corner thread we make to talk about our new patches every two weeks: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/patch-619-notes

I'm Aesah on Riot's Playtest Team, a group of Diamond+ players who play with the new champions, reworks, balance tweaks, items, and map updates before they are released. It's our job to the test the changes that our designers come up with and ensure that we're introducing positive changes to LoL in terms of both balance and fun. We'll be watching this thread to answer as many questions as we can.

6.19 is a relatively quiet patch, with the most notable change being the revert of Kog'Maw's "press W then AFK" rework. While some players will miss turret-Maw, we're expecting most to enjoy his new (old) playstyle more. There's been quite a lot of changes (itemization and meta) since we've seen this iteration, so we'll be watching his performance closely and make sure he's in a good spot. In other news, Mundo and Corki received some buffs while Soraka, Kled, Twitch, Anivia, and Cassiopeia were nerfed by varying degrees to bring their power levels closer to "fair". Udyr got some damage shifted around which hopefully makes him more satisfying to play. Some stuff happened to Aurelion Sol too, I'm going to refrain from commenting as I personally have no idea how it will affect him but I'll make sure our resident dragon expert Cezium shares his thoughts for you guys.

All of us on the Playtest Team are avid gamers so feel free to talk to us as fellow LoL players!

Adam "Afic" Cohen Preston “Hinderaga” Bunker Ben “Cezium” Burkhardt Shawn “I Am The IRS” Currie Don “Aesah” Ding Nicolas “Gleeb” Haddad Dan “penguin” Hardison Miles “Daydreamin” Hoard Bao “Bao” Lam Robert “ROBERTxLEE” Lee Nicholas “Nickwu” Smith Blake “S0be” Soberanis Trevor “ThEntropist” Thernes

184 Comments

LucaviiSep 21, 20168 votes

Honestly, it feels like you've pushed Kog back into an unplayable state. He's literally outshined in all of his possible roles now by, lets face it, better champions. Better range? Tristana, more viable too with the mobility and the ability to siege. Want health carving for tanks? Twitch or Vayne, Twitch is a better option for team fights too and Vayne has more mobility and scales pretty hard late game, especially if someone can use that mobility properly. Mage carry? Corki, cause let's face it, ap Kog is pretty much useless, Corki at least has those heavy hits in between whatever it is he does (kinda in a weird place right now too). Considering the heavy cost of his ult, the low damage coefficient's of any of his skills and his lack of mobility, Kayle would even be a better pick at this point.

You took all the uniqueness from Kog and made him into a stationary ADC with no unique qualities whatsoever. The least you could've done was just remove the "double attack speed cap" part of his w, left it to double his overall attack speed (would've let people build more damage and not get punished for having to stand still). Now people are going to have to stutter step on one of the least mobile champions in the game and be punished for taking advantage of his W, one of the most defining parts of his kit...

He won't make it anywhere near the top of the ad charts and will always be outshined by Twitch , Vayne , Caitlyn , Tristana , MissFortune , Lucian , hell, even Kalista .

Congrats Riot, you've succeeded in taking an idea so original that it actually had to change a game mechanic to work and turned it into another copy/paste of other champions but just lower quality.

RIP Kog, you were high risk and high reward and uniquely tailored as your own, individual champion. You will be missed.

Lord GrixSep 21, 20169 votes

how long have you been playing league?

LucaviiSep 22, 20162 votes

1yr post release so like, 9 years...

Fondling GemsSep 22, 20164 votes

The W revert is actually going to boost his tank shred a good bit.

Spaceman5pffSep 23, 20163 votes

Dude.

Pre-rework Kog was famous for entire teams being built around him. Maokai LeeSin Lulu KogMaw Janna

Imagine the potential for this now. Trundle Gragas Karma KogMaw Lulu

Especially with the power of item 3174 item 3504 and item 3222 on the likes of Karma Lulu Janna in this meta

JaniganSep 21, 20166 votes

Why doesn't Illaoi get nerfed?

Rage of FaceSep 22, 20166 votes

So, on the topic of Kog'Maw's "un-rework."

Is it possible that we'll see some ult changes reverted?

First of all, the stacking mechanic should be reverted to 6s instead of the current 10s. The only reason the 10s was reasonable during the rework was because his kit heavily revolved around the insane W and rendered everything else in his kit non-existent. The mana cost and additional mana costs need to be reverted as well if we're going to shift all the power away from his W.

Secondly, I feel that this new "execute" version of his Ult is particularly weaker than the double damage on champions version. What made the old Kog'Maw shine was the fact that his ult was an effective harassment tool and it felt satisfying to land them. In the ultimate's current state, even a squishy target won't feel the effects of whatever shadow was landing on top of them until they were "below xx% health." Now does that sound like an ultimate ability to you? Now I do realize that effectively the ult does more damage than before when an enemy is below 25% health, but that is a situation that a Kog'Maw without a harassment tool aside from W will ever find during laning phase. Outside of laning phase, there may be a few situations where a target will be under 25% health, but rarely ever will that target be within ult range.

Closing notes:

Since the Riot team decided to revert the major W change in Kog'Maw's kit, the rest of his kit became unbalanced or a better way to put it may be unrefined. I understand that the passive attack speed was given back to Q, but the major problem at the moment is keeping the reworked Ultimate. The mana costs to use it to an effective extent are too overwhelming for what it actually offers in the long run. One way to make the current costs reasonable is if stacks offered additional damage in a similar sense to how Kassadin's ultimate works, but then again that would remove the uniqueness of that concept.

I hope the Riot team can look at how to bring Kog'Maw's kit up-to-date with the current game. Anything from QoL changes to Ability interactions.

Very Cash MoneySep 21, 20165 votes

What is your opinion on Zac?

He got solid

Damage
CC
Sustain
Tankyness

It really seems that he is just overall strong in everything a tank wants to be strong in. Usually a tank needs to sacrifice at least one or two of these traits, but it seems Zac just has them all.

I believe the problem simply lies in the fact that his Damage is so high that he barely needs to optimize for damage items, thereby allowing tankyness. Innate tankyness is the one thing Zac lacks, but it doesn't really matter if he is free to invest all his money in it with seemingly no consequences.

Champs like Amumu and Naut also have quite a lot of damage and CC, however they need to buy an item or two to really feel their damage, and it often comes at the expense of tankyness.

Idk, Maybe I am just getting tired of being oneshot by a full tank Zac whenever I play immobile carries, but i would like to hear your oppinions on him. His winrate seems okay but that is not all :^

RiotRiot ThEntropistSep 21, 201616 votes

I actually don't think his damage being high is an issue at all because a lot of it is loaded in his E which has quite a lot of ways to dodge it.

Although I do think Zac may be a little too strong, so the argument could be made for a nerf, even though I personally don't think he is over the line yet. I play the most Zac on the team, and my changelist for nerfs would be:

E: Elastic Slingshot

Cc Duration: 1 second >>> 0.75-1 Second based on charge time (maybe 0.5-1 second) Cooldown: 24-12 >>> 24-14

I think him point blanking his E doesn't provide a lot of good gameplay and this would make it less punishing to get hit by. Also I think the CC from landing a max range E, into ult, and then having E back up with enough CDR is a problem.

These are just what I would do and does not mean these changes are going through, or that Zac is being looked at. That decision is up to Live Gameplay.

Very Cash MoneySep 21, 20165 votes

I see, valid points. A lot of the power is loaded to E indeed and dodging it can be quite easy on some champs, but I disagree that its all tied into landing it. Zacs E still serves great power even when missed, and the risk of using it is just about nothing after level 6.

However as some have commented the indicator is sort of hard to see, this one is annoying since it basically mean a zac jumbing from FoW will leave you half a second reaction time or something like that. According to the wiki Zacs E is literally as big in radius as malphites ultimate (300 each) but the shadow really don't do a good job showing that.

Additionally while many champs have easy tools to dodge it there are two whole classes of champions (75% of adcs and mages) that just get thoroughly fucked since they can only move out of the unclear radius with their 330-400 movementspeed meaning they need to react at least 0.75 seconds before zac lands. And even then moving for these mages is as good as being stunned in a ganking situation since their direction gets forced.

And as easy as it is to dodge as easy is it for Zac to use in other ways. The great size and Range of his E simply allows for zoning, placing it a bit behind the enemy leaves them with a luxurious choice of walking straight into the enemy or getting smacked by a malphite ultimate.

So while it is very true that it is easily dodgeable for champs like lucian and Vlademir I still think the risk/reward on that spell is insanely low and that it for a bunch of other champions like jinx and lux just seems very hard to play around.

That said, I like the idea of fixing instant cast of his E and lowering the uptime. I would like to see maybe a bit reduced radius on it or perhaps something to make missing it more punishing.

RiotRiot ThEntropistSep 21, 20168 votes

Zacs E still serves great power even when missed, and the risk of using it is just about nothing after level 6.

Very much agree. The zoning power/forcing someone to move somewhere is very powerful, I just don't see it as a problematic power because he loses a lot if they dodge it.

And even then moving for these mages is as good as being stunned in a ganking situation since their direction gets forced.

I would very much disagree with this. If you dodge the E pre-6 zac does very little to continue the gank. It would almost all be up to the enemy laner at that point.

So while it is very true that it is easily dodgeable for champs like lucian and Vlademir I still think the risk/reward on that spell is insanely low and that it for a bunch of other champions like jinx and lux just seems very hard to play around.

Also wanna say that dodging isn't the only option, a lot of things also can interrupt him out of it and that can really hurt his engage. So there are definitely things you can pick into Zac that will feel good.

Overall I don't think reducing the AOE would make sense for the champion, if that becomes extremely unreliable the champion will struggle to function in his intended pattern imo. The indicator might need to be a bit clearer, but I think once people get used to looking at the shadow instead of the Zac, it is fairly easy to respond to.

RiotAesahSep 21, 201610 votes

You mentioned his winrate is OK, of course if Zac was an insane tanky/dps/CC-bot then he would stomp every game- so I'd encourage you to analyze his weaknesses. You compared him to Nautilus/Amumu- relative to them, his CC is unreliable/shorter duration. I know I definitely am scared to even get within auto attack range as an ADC against an Amumu/Nautilus in teamfights fearing a Flash+Ult combo- Zac doesn't hold that equal threat (even though his ganks from fog are scarier).

It's also important to avoid hyperbole, I mean I don't think you truly believe a full tank Zac can actually 1-shot anything.

CrimsonCobra3Sep 21, 20162 votes

Right now ADC is the only class of champion that is squishy enough to be one-shot by tanks, but we happen to have one in almost every game, and we rely on them to take objectives for us. However, that's not really unique to Zac. A lot of tanks can one-shot ADCs right now. Well, kind of. Most of them have to be at least a little fed.

Spaceman5pffSep 23, 20161 votes

I really don't think Zac can come even close to 1-shotting an ADC unless his build is something like Zac item 1402 item 3001 item 3020

CrimsonCobra3Sep 23, 20161 votes

Zac's usually build at least 1 or 2 AP items. Almost always a protobelt. And when I say one-shot, I mean that they kill them very fast. (Naturally.) I've seen this happen several times, so I don't think I'm exaggerating. Albeit, they're usually either fed, or the adc isn't at 100% health, but it's pretty much a one-shot. And I don't think it's unbalanced, I'm just saying that it happens.

Spaceman5pffSep 23, 20164 votes

Ok by one-shot i though you meant one-shot, not "killed sorta fast"

VekknaSep 21, 20163 votes

His weaknesses are all certain classes of champs. He completely counters mages. You can't ward his ganks, you're not safe under turret, you have virtually no chance of killing him, and your only way of escaping is Zac disengaging.

A good Amumu's ganks can do lots of damage. A good Naut feels like a brick wall. Zac is both and with less counterplay. The first two have initiation range that is realistically wardable and blockable by minions; that alone is a huge amount of counterplay compared to "hopefully you notice the shadow and have flash."

The first two also have meaningfully longer cooldowns, mana limitations, less sustained damage, no healing, and have a much harder time sticking to a target that uses an ability to get out of their lockdown zone. They're also worse at disengaging and much easier to catch in the event that they pick a losing fight.

If you do manage to kill him as a mage (just in theory or if you're, like, 3 levels up). it's extremely difficult to kill all four blobs before he revives and slingshots away.

Of course, if you're Tryndamere or Yasuo then basically none of these problems apply to you. You just run down the Zac and kill him while your Maw shield soaks his entire ult and you heal through the rest of his damage. That's why his win rate is what it is, but does that make it ok for him to be utterly suffocating to basically every mage?

InTheorySep 21, 20163 votes

[deleted]

RiotRiot ThEntropistSep 21, 201610 votes

I had a bbq bacon burger and chips. Yum

I believe that has been ice boxed(Heh) but I wouldn't be surprised to see it revisited when the team has more time to explore there
I have never heard about that discussion, so my guess would be no. Although I may just not be included in it.
unsure
This gives her a meaningful decision in what skill ordering she should go. Also for why we went as hard as we did this time and didn't other times is based on if we feel it is warranted or not. However, a +1.5 AD at level 18 seems like such a small buff that we would never do. +1.5 AD per level is more reasonable and would affect something throughout the entire game, where this soraka nerf only affects her till level 9 or 13.
mobis for sure, I'm never in combat.

redfeenixSep 21, 20163 votes

Robert “ROBERTXLEE” Lee

This name sounds familiar. Didnt you have amnesia one time? Hope everythings cool man.

kog Changes

Yes and No.

On one hand, the kog changes resulted in a really sick attack speed carry, it was pretty cool. On the other he was Op as shit.

I think saving that 5.0 attack speed steroid for another champion in the future would be a good idea.The old Kog had a much higher skill cap. And made you really decide which skill to max first. Which I think should be a feature in all champs, not just max Q every game for example.

Cassio

Hitting her damage is fine, the problem is her interaction with Rylais. As a champion, she can perma slow with her e. Therefore She can always escape any engagement, or chase down foes making escape impossible.

Short patch notes, changes were fine...

But whats all your opinions on Ivern??

RiotAesahSep 21, 20162 votes

Yeah Kog's skill order had some issues where many players found it optimal to not even level their Q at all until the midgame- that's super lame.

Cassio definitely gains a huge power spike from Rylai's- I wouldn't pinpoint that interation as her "problem" (before even discussing if she has a problem at all). Anyway, the fact is that Rylai's is there so she will build it. That being said, there's been a lot of discussion revolving around Rylai's at the office although nothing set in stone.

Regarding Ivern, as much as I want to keep this thread focused on 6.19, I expected this question to pop up and there isn't any other good way to reach us about it until he releases, so I'll allow it. I think Ivern is a really risky champion design with game-warping implications when someone picks him- and that's a good thing! I'd expect his unique playstyle and theme to appeal to players who haven't found their main yet in the champion roster yet and would be happy to see new Ivern mains (as long as they aren't on the enemy team).

Also, Ivern has a really cool interaction with Blitzcrank.

majulitoSep 21, 20162 votes

I don't think rylais itself is a big problem. I think all the cdr added to mage items along with the decrease in ap makes rylais too appealing. Before the mage update mages had to choose between high ap or cdr or in other words burst vs dps. With more cdr and less ap mages are forced in the dps direction. Rylias works well when you have low cooldowns because you can proc it more. In addition rylias is one of the highest ap giving items while providing good health so theres no reason to not get it.

Honestly for the preseason I hope you guys focus on items specifically cdr. I don't feel certain champs are properly tuned for having such high amounts of cdr being availalbe. For example Lucian and Jhin having high cdr while still having good damage or mages "abusing rylias" (quotes because i feel they are forced to go that way from the update).

Nenad2k10Sep 21, 20163 votes

Hello, just got my hands at the game and went head first to test Aurelion Sol (since I play him a lot) First thing I noticed is that you can't cancel your E anymore for the first 2 seconds of the cast, neither by pressing E or right clicking. That seems really weird since and it's not mentionted anywhere. Also is there any context on why did you change his E to be canceled by only reactivating the abilty and not right clicking?

RiotCeziumSep 21, 20162 votes

You should be able to cancel it after 1.5 seconds and the right click functionality should still be in there. I talked with the designer who was working on it (with the goal of making Aurelion Sol feel more accessible for players), and mentioned that eliminating the right click to cancel felt bad. We also talked about the lockout, and we felt like 1.5 seconds seemed ok to make sure an Aurelion Sol player doesn't accidentally mess up the flight by double tapping too soon.

Nenad2k10Sep 21, 20161 votes

{quoted}

You should be able to cancel it after 1.5 seconds and the right click functionality should still be in there. I talked with the designer who was working on it (with the goal of making Aurelion Sol feel more accessible for players), and mentioned that eliminating the right click to cancel felt bad. We also talked about the lockout, and we felt like 1.5 seconds seemed ok to make sure an Aurelion Sol player doesn't accidentally mess up the flight by double tapping too soon.

First of all thanks for letting right clicking stay, I was so concerned about it. Just tested the lockout and it clearly says 2 second cooldown after you use E which is honestly too much and could kill you in certain situations. Maybe 1 second would be ideal, I think it had 0,5 seconds cooldown prior to this patch and it was perfectly fine.

RiotCeziumSep 21, 20162 votes

Well the last time I talked to the designer we had it going up from 0.6 to 1.5 =P I think that's probably a little too much, but should for the most part be manageable. I think it's more rare than you think that Aurelion Sol is using his flight for less than 2 seconds, at least in my experience.

The goal, of course, is to make sure it feels good. That might mean it does need to come down a little as well. It's entirely possible.

WéedasaurSep 22, 20163 votes

Ok, so I see that you have for the most part reverted Kog back to his old kit. I personally think this is a good thing, and it shows that you guys are capable of making this happen when the need is dire.

My question is, will you guys be looking at Mordekaiser anytime soon? His "Juggernaut" update destroyed his ability to play any role effectively, and he is a JOKE in the competitive scene. I was a Mordekaiser main before the update, but now he is completely unplayable. What happened to the metallic nightmare that i knew and loved.... Make Morde great again

DracocrashSep 22, 20163 votes

Kog'maw W seems a bit wonky. Have you tried it out? At lower attack speeds it seems very easy to cancel his W and "feels" slower.

Any word on kog'maw W not getting a revert on mana cost?

warpenguin555Sep 22, 20163 votes

Pre rework Kog'maw had no mana cost on his W. Right now he has a 40 mana cost on it. Is this intended?

Hi Im Fox BoxSep 21, 20162 votes

Nerf Kled? :D

RiotRiot ThEntropistSep 21, 20167 votes

In the patch my dude.

SlashStrikerSep 21, 20162 votes

Will Assassins hit the PBE soon?

bro0rtegaSep 21, 20162 votes

How does the Playtest team try to weed out hidden buffs/nerfs? Test with composition algorithms? or just studying beforehand who's most likely to be effected by these changes? or just hope to stumble upon these things? I recognize there is a limited time and so many possibilities. Thanks!

RiotAesahSep 21, 20165 votes

Not sure if I'm fulling understanding "hidden buffs/nerfs", but I'm interpreting it to mean something along the lines of"Hey if we take crit off of Trinity Force, does that make Irelia stronger and Yasuo weaker?"

We mostly think about it and theorycraft as a team. If anything strikes as particularly extra problematic, we can focus testing on it- otherwise, the nice thing about some of these are they are generally small scope so we can simultaneously test them as controls while testing more crazy stuff- efficiency baby.

int is successSep 21, 20162 votes

The de-worked Kog'maw has made me find adc super fun, and the element of skill is super impactful of his gameplay. I love the way the build path is so much more open, love it Rito :D [slayer-pantheon-thumbs] (my opop build item 3006 item 3153 item 3085 item 3142 item 3091 item 3022 )

LeadedWolfSep 21, 20162 votes

Thank you for nerfing Twitch now just need to work on Satan Teemo

RiotRiot ThEntropistSep 21, 201627 votes

Some things need nerfs.... others?.... others need deletion.

PureSilvrrSep 21, 20161 votes

About Aurelion, I think his E changes will make him easier to play, but not stopping flying after taking damage was unnecessary, it basically says if I get caught flying, I can just ignore whoever's attacking me. For example ignoring enemy jungler if you get caught roaming bot lane. I could also use it to escape a fight as long as I have not bene attacked for 5 seconds. its sad, like a kled using ult as an escape. I agree with the rest of the changes though

RiotCeziumSep 21, 20162 votes

You shouldn't be able to use it as an escape if you have taken damage within the last 5 seconds. If you are damaged while flying you should be interrupted and stopped.

set435Sep 21, 20161 votes

Wait just a noob question, forgive me everyone, how do u ping items in the shop? Also how can u put stuff like Zed- e recharging in 5 seconds or Zed respawning in 5s on the chat?

Brynne AlteriaSep 21, 20163 votes

do ctrl+click

Kasjusz0Sep 21, 20161 votes

Hi :) Is Kog Maw in jungle still a good thing? What are ideas about his future, will he be able to play succesfull in jungle?

RiotRiot ThEntropistSep 21, 201615 votes

Pretty sure he will no longer be able to jungle anymore.

Unless you really use your passive well.

Best Kog NASep 21, 201611 votes

Challenge accepted

RiotSkarnye WestSep 22, 201631 votes

Can confirm ThEntropist is really good at using Kog'Maw's passive

Doctor JarvisSep 22, 201611 votes

http://bensbargains.com/thecheckout/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Burn.jpg

Spaceman5pffSep 23, 20164 votes

Not sure why you got downvoted, that was a very well played meme. +1

Lusûs NaturaeSep 21, 20161 votes

I would like to ask about the nerf on Soraka, as I have saw her in play and she is now horrible and disgusting, she feels almost unplayable early game, as all she can do is remove some health and silence. What are you opinions about the nerf and how did you come to it?

RiotAesahSep 22, 20167 votes

Soraka still has the exact same power in a war of attrition, she is just weaker now in all in situations where she was far too strong if she stood safely behind her ADC and healed.