Patch Chat with the Playtest Team - 6.18, Worlds Patch!

RiotAesah·Sep 8, 2016·1 votes·99,862 views

Hey guys! Welcome to Patch Chat, a Dev Corner thread we make to talk about our new patches every two weeks: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/patch-618-notes

I'm Aesah on Riot's Playtest Team, a group of Diamond+ players who play with the new champions, reworks, balance tweaks, items, and map updates before they are released. It's our job to the test the changes that our designers come up with and ensure that we're introducing positive changes to LoL in terms of both balance and fun. We'll be watching this thread to answer as many questions as we can.

While we always keep normal and ranked games in mind for balance (e.g., the terror of tank Yasuo is getting hit here), 6.18 is the patch that Worlds will be played on so we're focusing a bit more on competitive play for this one. First off, a few champions who've fallen a bit behind in the meta have gotten some minor buffs (Lux, Nocturne, Miss Fortune, and Lee Sin). Primarily though, we're nerfing several champions that have caused pros to dismiss other options due to their just-a-bit-too-high power levels. Notable champions that received varying degrees of nerfs based on how overbearing their presence was include Ashe, Ekko, Gnar, Lissandra, Reksai, Taliyah, Shen, and Vladimir. We're expecting that tuning down these staples of competitive play will cause an increase in champion diversity while not completing butchering their viability in both competitive play as well as normal/ranked games.

All of us on the Playtest Team are avid gamers so feel free to talk to us as fellow LoL players!

Adam "Afic" Cohen Preston “Hinderaga” Bunker Ben “Cezium” Burkhardt Shawn “I Am The IRS” Currie Don “Aesah” Ding Nicolas “Gleeb” Haddad Dan “Penguin” Hardison Miles “Daydreamin” Hoard Bao “Bao” Lam Robert “RobertxLee” Lee Nicholas “Nickwu” Smith Blake “S0be” Soberanis Trevor “ThEntropist” Thernes

333 Comments

Clint OrrisSep 8, 20169 votes

Yasuo still isn't deleted sooo what else is there really to talk about

RiotRiot AficSep 8, 201623 votes

deleting teemo

The Red GoatSep 8, 20169 votes

Actually I've got a question in regards to champions like Yasuo. By which I mean snowball reliant champions, of which I feel we're getting too many of them lately. I understand League is the kind of game that can change and grow by leaps and bounds over time, but I've started to see a very unhealthy trend where basically every game has at least 2 or 3 players using champions that can snowball of of even a single kill or the lack of a death. Yasuo is really only one example of this, but I can also reference Rengar, Zed, Ekko, Jax, Xin Hao, Darius, Fizz (one of the worst when it comes to this I've found), and several adc champs even like Lucian, Caitlynn, and Jinx as of late.

My question about all of this though is more or less just whether anyone at Riot might also be seeing this trend. Where the types of champs mentioned above get any kind of kill in one lane, and proceed to get a string of kills afterwards just because of that one. Putting them at "Raid mode" levels of unbalanced power creep. Another more vivid example of what I mean would be how Ekko, a champs designed to be a glass cannon-esk assassin, became a tanky mage bruiser for his standard playstyle. He was played tanky, yet he still slaughtered players that were supposedly evenly matched in level and items. To me, that level of power shouldn't really exist on many champions, because that kind of playstyle doesn't actually have counter-play. You just have to hope you can avoid that champion.

DiminishSep 8, 20166 votes

Hi!

For full context on my response to the recent changes to Master/Challenger decays, please check this thread out.

With the most recent patch, Challenger and Master players now have to commit more time than ever to maintain their rank.

Unfortunately however, Master players are not recognized for competing and maintaining a high LP count throughout the season. A Master 400 LP player, who plays one game every day to maintain their rank, will receive the same end of season rewards as a Master 0 LP player who sat in diamond 1 all season to avoid the decay mechanics, and popped into Master a week before the season ends.

Will you guys consider tiered rewards for Master, similar to how Challengers receive tiered rewards based on their placement? This would encourage healthy competition and a more reachable goal for low/mid Master players, and recognize the skill difference of 0LP and 400 LP Master players.

In a perfect world, I'd love to see physical rewards for Master players who reach a certain unannounced LP threshold, but that's totally up to you guys. In any case, please either reward Master players for reaching the higher ends of the tier, or relax the restrictions on Master tier.

Thanks for your time!

RiotRiot AficSep 8, 201611 votes

Although this is something we (playtest team) haven't worked on, I can pass this concern along to the more relevant people.

Your concerns definitely seem valid to me, so hopefully the team working on that feature will be able to find a solution.

DiminishSep 8, 20163 votes

I actually have a question about gameplay, support item builds specifically. We've been seeing some cool new items like the new censer, athene's, etc. for supports.

These items are great, and have cool concepts, but seem to be drowned out by locket of the iron solari. Locket is almost consistently a first rushed item by nearly every single champion played as support, leaving aside more exciting options like athene's and censer in favor of an aura + shield.

While the active effect is fine (best used as a counter to lots of AoE damage), the aura is always good all of the time

Personally I'd love to see more items like zeke's, athene's, censer, crucible etc, but locket is so crucial to a team that those items are often not completed before a game ends.

Do you guys think locket's prominence in support item builds is good, bad, or neutral for the game?

RiotRiot AficSep 8, 20165 votes

I personally think locket is bad overall (for a lot of the same reasons you stated). Hopefully we will be able to do something to address that in the near future.

Reaper RakaSep 8, 20165 votes

What's happening with Akali? I heard she is a contender for the assassin rework or is she getting a VGU update? Please give us more information on the amazing champion, Akali

redfeenixSep 8, 20164 votes

I've been starting to play a lot of MF.

What is your prefered build on her? Cleaver? Or crit.

Why did you decide to buff Noc's CC? He is approaching fiddlesticks level fear, and being able to hit a target for so long would make E max 2nd a totally viable option.

Whats your preferred build on Nocturne and does it inlcude shiv?

I noticed ekko and gnar and getting tuned down. How about Yasuo and fizz? They seem a lil too strong still, esp when they build tank.

And context on Shen nerfs?? Cmon guys I know he is really OP in the correct hands but in low elo he gets wrecked a lot. He def needs some buffs , instead of nerfs.

RiotCeziumSep 8, 20163 votes

For MF, I like building Cleaver and other flat armour pen items like Ghostblade and Duskblade.

For Nocturne, that was definitely something we were a little worried about. The increased CC duration makes the fear pretty long and it could have some pretty negative effects on solo queue. The hope is that the changes do make Nocturne a little more powerful without completely destroying solo queue.

For Nocturne, it's mostly just flat armour pen items as well. I like Ghostblade and Duskblade, much like a lot of other AD assassins.

Yasuo got some nerfs as well. Fizz isn't overly strong at the moment I believe, although I agree he's very frustrating. Definitely my go to ban if Ekko and Yasuo are already banned.

Catgirl WaifuSep 8, 20164 votes

So... Shen nerfs, huh? Huh.

The Blue RajahSep 8, 20162 votes

How do you guys feel Diana has been doing lately? It seems like after the last change, which was supposed to be a buff, her winrate has gone down.

CrazFight Sep 8, 20164 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Blue Rajah,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=6ZVfaAwO,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-09-08T19:39:01.771+0000)

How do you guys feel Diana has been doing lately? It seems like after the last change, which was supposed to be a buff, her winrate has gone down.

Tons of people see a diana buff , so tons of noob diana players started playing her and making her lose streak go down (Me)

RiotAesahSep 9, 20163 votes

Pretty much this- it was a really small change but reminds non-Diana players about playing her which drops her winrate.

TerraRisingSep 8, 20161 votes

What is the Playtest Team's beliefs on how to properly build New Yorick in an ideal situation?

Runes, Masteries, Starting and core items?

RiotCeziumSep 8, 20164 votes

Tri-Force, Titanic, Deadman's, Spirit Visage, Maw/Sterak's. All of those are pretty strong and feel great on him.

Runes I usually go AD reds, health/lvl yellows, magic resist/lvl blues and flat armour quints.

Masteries I normally get grasp.

rdriagoontSep 8, 20161 votes

So you were the guys who did this.... Akali Nautilus Olaf TahmKench
Teemo of course except Kled i mean gotta give credit on what i gotta do

RiotRiot AficSep 8, 20166 votes

same

Gód Eater Sep 8, 20161 votes

what happened to championship zed ?

RiotRiot AficSep 8, 20163 votes

skins aren't typically turned on in the first day of the patch.

Chromatic EagleSep 8, 20162 votes

Why exactly? Was always curious about that.

LooneyLuSep 9, 20168 votes

To provide a smoother feeling of update, instead of just throwing stuff at you as soon as the patch starts, they want the content to flow over you like a warm mountain spring, complete with goats baaing in the background and your mothers freshly cooked bread floating on the breeze. You get up in surprise, to find the bread literally flying around, crashing into windows and trees. You look to your mother to ask her what is going on, to find her face twisted like a horrible beast's, covered in buzzing flys. Terror fills your heart as you get up to run, but you are pinned to the ground, unable to move. You look on in horror as the beast that was your mother slowly moves closer, her claws reaching towards you. Suddenly, a great screech rends the sky, and the beast is whisked away by a giant eagle. You look at it as it flys away, and to your horror it is suddenly beset by a great swarm of bread. It is shredded to the bone, like an innocent toe dipped in a piranha pond. As bits of flesh and skin shower down around you, you wake up.

Sorry, idk what that was. Anyway, they want the updates to feel more fluid.

warpenguin555Sep 8, 20161 votes

Favorite Pro Teams?

RiotRiot ThEntropistSep 8, 20167 votes

Voyboy.

No no I understand the question.

Voyboy.

RiotRiot AficSep 8, 20166 votes

Can vouch. He does understand the question and the answer is still vooby and his yaSUo

redfeenixSep 8, 20161 votes

You didnt link the Patch Notes in your OP this time, btw.

RiotCeziumSep 9, 20165 votes

geez what is Aesah even doing

(I'll let him know)

RiotAesahSep 9, 20168 votes

I have no idea what you guys are talking about

RaxistaichoSep 9, 20161 votes

Are there any thoughts that Ahri might be too strong these days? Her pick rate is creeping up again and she still has a strong win rate, even against champs that "counter" her according to data from champion.gg

RiotCeziumSep 9, 20161 votes

Ahri is definitely someone we're aware of, although there's nothing planned for her right now.

KeevalroySep 10, 20163 votes

Psst. If she becomes a problem, you should redraw the line between assassin and mage for her (as she was originally the line between the two classes) by getting rid of the extraneous mobility on her Q that she has for no reason and doesn't need, and give back the charm amp you guys gave to Fishboy of all champions...or if not, they could be treated as the same debuff so they don't stack.

Riot has a strong tendency to ignore the power mobility gives champions - in the last two years to the point where it seems like you've all refused to see it's an issue. This could be one of the changes that starts the addressing of how much mobility creep League has accumulated over time beyond the grounding effects recently introduced.

RiotCeziumSep 10, 20161 votes

Assassins and burst mages are pretty similar classes, with assassins generally having more mobility and burst mages not. Ahri is kind of a weird case because of the mobility inherent in her ult, but a general (short of Q) lack of mobility outside of it. The charm amp was... tough to work with just because it put so much power into one basic ability. I don't think that's great because her ability to find success or failure depends entirely on that one skill and none of her other skills mean much. There are other ways we can look at her thouh, although I'm not much of an Ahri expert so I don't think I have too many thoughts on her.

No, we're definitely aware of how powerful mobility is. We've worked on finding ways to counteract mobility (like grounding on Cass's W) to releasing champions that generally don't have dashes/blinks (mainly just movespeed increases). Trust me, our design teams are pretty aware of it, but to be fair it's just fun to be super fast. Everyone loves running around and jumping everywhere. There's a reason Lee Sin and Yasuo are so popular, and things like Jinx's passive are considered cool. I'm not one of those people (gimme those static juggernauts like Garen or Illaoi all day), and I feel like those champions without mobility are generally given a lot of power elsewhere to make up for it.

All of this is to say we are aware of how much mobility is in the game and it's definitely something our design teams consider (at least in my experience).

KeevalroySep 10, 20163 votes

The charm amp was... tough to work with just because it put so much power into one basic ability. I don't think that's great because her ability to find success or failure depends entirely on that one skill and none of her other skills mean much.

At least she wasn't just mindlessly spamming and running away from everything like she does now. You were punished for missing your skillshots and rewarded for patience, which also sounds like a healthy trade off. Besides, DFG isn't in the game anymore for her to synergize with so the fear of the double-amp coming back should already be alleviated.

All of this is to say we are aware of how much mobility is in the game and it's definitely something our design teams consider (at least in my experience).

This was also said two years ago...right before Kalista was released...and then balancing and reworks came later where mobility was prioritized and / or protected, thus adding to the mobility creep. I could talk about the power creep that came with it, but that's another topic entirely.

From your point of view, I can understand that there might be discussion, but whether or not something happens following the discussions, well, I think you could probably understand why I'm not convinced.

RiotCeziumSep 10, 20162 votes

It's a fair point. It's kind of a trend that when champions lose aspects of their burst damage they gain other methods of doing stuff (like the Q mobility for Ahri). To be honest, though, I don't see nearly as many people complaining about Ahri that I used to see before I worked here, even given the high win/play rates. That says to me at least that something was probably done right.

That's fair too. I'm obviously not a part of the design teams and I can't make them eliminate all mobility from the game. For the most part, I feel like we're getting better. What was the last champion we released with a dash/blink? Kled I guess? Before that? Ekko/Kindred? And that doesn't count any of the reworks where generally speaking we've tuned up the less mobile champions like juggernauts and immobile mages to make them feel more rewarding.

I get the sentiment though. It does feel like there is so much mobile bullshit out there and it can be really frustrating. I hate Ekko and Fizz and Yasuo. And when you see that stuff around, I think it's probably right to question whether or not we're really trying to curb the mobility creep (which, to be fair, I think we are).

Chromatic EagleSep 10, 20164 votes

There was a time where we complained a ton about Ahri, but she fell out of the meta of complaining. Kappa

I think mobility can be fine, but sometimes it feels as if they don't pay/trade off for it. Ekko gets complained a lot for his mobility and cc, so that seems like a point in our grievance. I don't think Kindred is complained about much for their mobility.

RiotCeziumSep 12, 20161 votes

And that's definitely a big issue. If champions aren't paying for absurd mobility, they're probably too strong.

For Ekko, generally he's supposed to have pretty unreliable spells (the ult damage part and the W being so slow/taking forever to develop). He has very little reliability across his kit. He's still pretty ridiculous and I hate him.

LankPantsSep 14, 20162 votes

Unreliability doesn't seem like a great weakness to me. It just means that the champ becomes utterly absurd in the hands of someone who solves the issues of reliability, through items, teamplay or just knowledge of how to play around the issues.

He's still pretty ridiculous and I hate him.

The entire community seems to, that should probably be your first hint that he's an utterly garbage design in dire need of a rework.

RiotCeziumSep 14, 20161 votes

Not going to word that as strongly, but I do agree who probably needs some serious work

Chromatic EagleSep 14, 20163 votes

Idk how to phrase this without being mean, but I get the feeling that several newer champions (around the time of Yasuo), have had serious design and balancing issues. Shouldn't Riot be getting better at this (though that's subjective)?

HellioningSep 14, 20166 votes

The problem is that those champs that have serious issues are really fun. Some of the most popular champions in the game are Thresh, Lee Sin, and Yasuo, all champs that have had serious issues in the past and will probably have serious issues in the future. People like a lot of things that make champions tough to balance, such as generalist kits and lots of mobility.

Champion SkinSep 10, 20163 votes

Having other things then mobility is fine and all but mobility is really powerful and giving something else of equal power would be difficult without breaking the champion?

Other things are nice but don't usually help much when Jarvan ult you... the enemy jumps over a wall... Olaf is charging at you with his ult (also of course Mobility is the best tool for chasing, escaping and avoiding enemy skill shots though that depends on the mobility)

RiotCeziumSep 12, 20163 votes

But Jarvan and Olaf have other advantages - Jarvan has one of the longest closing combos in the game and completely shuts down champions without mobility/flash on cooldown. Olaf literally can't be stopped short of terrain/killing him.

I'm not going to disagree with you that mobility is powerful, but being mobile isn't the only powerful mechanic in the game.

LankPantsSep 14, 20161 votes

I'm not going to disagree with you that mobility is powerful, but being mobile isn't the only powerful mechanic in the game.

It is however THE most powerful mechanic in the game and has generally been heavily undercosted on kits.

RiotCeziumSep 14, 20161 votes

Why is is the most powerful mechanic in the game? You literally can't win a game without damage =P

That's not to take away from it, but to say it's THE most powerful mechanic is a tad overboard I think lol

Chromatic EagleSep 14, 20162 votes

It enables both aggressive playstyles, and mitigating poor positioning. Lane swaps, roaming, split pushing, and objectives are a lot easier with high mobility.

Chromatic EagleSep 10, 20161 votes

Don't you think you guys put too much power into Q? It does the most damage outside of her ult, deals true damage as it returns, and now gives her burst mobility. Her E at least is a cc, which will always be good/viable, but her W isn't anything special. Why didn't you guys put the mobility on her W?

With respect, I don't think you guys are. Kalista for example. She should've been just fine as a teamwork adc, until her mobility passive was tacked on. Now she's been nerfed/forced into a mobile adc instead of a utility one. Azir is in a tough spot due to both having huge range and mobility in his E. Taliyah might have some issues in the future, but I don't know much about her.

Mobility may not be a huge deal on Juggernauts, but there seems to be a whole other list of problems with them. Maybe they're overcompensating for the lack of mobility?

RiotCeziumSep 12, 20161 votes

You can always adjust numbers for everything. That means that spell having a few different things on doesn't really matter because if the spell did 100 damage and gave her 5% movespeed, it wouldn't be particularly powerful. That's not to say putting lots of mechanics on one ability is a good idea.

We had a choice to make with Kalista, which was amping up her team/oathsworn gameplay or giving her the passive. I honestly don't have much context on Kalista because I started pretty far after her release, but I'd guess her passive was generally considered the more core part of her gameplay and so that's what we stuck with. I wouldn't really say Azir's problem stem from the range/mobility of his E at all.

I personally generally like Juggernauts, although I think we sometimes give them too much. They are on the classes that I think are most clearly defined (lots of raw health and damage, very low cc and mobility). This does lead to issues where basically most of their gameplay is stat checking people (well I do X damage per second and you do Y damage per second and I have more health so... I win.). Yeah, they generally are compensating for the lack of mobility, but that's true for anything without mobility. And mobile champions generally lose other stuff because they are mobile.

DeathBurstSep 13, 20161 votes

I wouldn't really say Azir's problem stem from the range/mobility of his E at all.

No offense, but some Riot designer has already stated on this board that they consider this to be Azir fundamental flaw. Sadly, I can't find back the original post, but if I remember correctly, he was saying it was his personal opinion and suggested to either remove Azir mobility and support him as a long-range kinda "AP marksman", or to keep the mobility but severely reduce his overall DPS.

RiotCeziumSep 13, 20161 votes

I think his fundamental flaw is more lack of interactivity; this is compounded by his moveblock, but the moveblock in and of itself isn't what makes the character an issue in my opinion. To say all of Azir's problem are simply because he has a moveblock seems like a narrow view of the problem. Even the designer said there is a world where he keeps the moveblock, which means it isn't the crux of the issue.

DeathBurstSep 14, 20162 votes

Once again provided I understood+remember correctly: the crux of the issue is having BOTH range AND mobility (but not specifically from his E), because yes, he can hurt you safely, so kinda "lacks interaction". And so there was two hypothetical worlds, one with only range (the "marksman" option) and the other with only mobility (the play-making combo mage with reduced DPS).

I actually tried to find this damn post back by digging in surr@20 "red posts" archive, but no luck...