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Patch Chat with the Playtest Team - 7.3, nerfing permabanned champs

RiotAesah··1 votes·106,636 views

new "Minions" art created by inkinesss!

Hey guys! Welcome to Patch Chat, a Dev Corner thread we make to talk about our new patches every two weeks: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/patch-73-notes

I'm Aesah on Riot's Playtest Team, a group of Diamond+ players who play with the new champions, reworks, balance tweaks, items, and map updates before they are released. It's our job to the test the changes that our designers come up with and ensure that we're introducing positive changes to LoL in terms of both balance and fun. We'll be watching this thread to answer as many questions as we can.

7.3 is primarily focused on addressing champions that were too far out of line in pro play. We certainly consider how these changes affect the majority of our players too- these nerfs were warranted there as well, with many of these champs being near permaban status in normal and ranked drafts. The offenders include Camille, Ivern, Jayce, Kha'zix, Leblanc, Malzahat, Rengar, and Zyra.

All of us on the Playtest Team are avid gamers so feel free to talk to us as fellow LoL players!

Adam "Afic" Cohen Ben “Cezium” Burkhardt Don “Aesah” Ding Nicolas “Gleeb” Haddad Dan “penguin” Hardison Robert “ROBERTxLEE” Lee Nicholas “Nickwu” Smith Blake “S0be” Soberanis Trevor “ThEntropist” Thernes Arnor "TheLastAirbender" Halldorsson

419 Comments

Deep Terror Nami40 votes

I saw some concern that Malzahar's changes balanced him for Support, but harmed him significantly as a solo laner. I don't think making him primarily a support is the intention, so do you have any thoughts on this? (Also, you misspelled Malzahar).

The P0ntiff21 votes

You mean Malzahat! item 3089

deoje29928 votes

item 3089 Malzahar Malzahat

RiotAesah15 votes

I'm not the Malzahar expert (don't even know how to spell his name) but a lot of our team is out at the moment so I'll try my best to provide context in the meantime.

The changes are intended to affect his support performance more than mid, but it is inevitable that any nerf at all will affect both. That being said, Malzahar mid has been in a very comfortable (often, TOO comfortable) spot for a long time and I would personally expect him to still be in the upper half of midlaners across Bronze->Diamond in terms of pure power level despite the nerf.

Eclípse8 votes

Why not revisit the change you guys made around preseason that changed his W from wave stacking to what it is now. That was what made Malz now work in bot lane and nerfed his mid lane output.

Tormentula19 votes

"The offenders include Camille, Ivern, Jayce, Kha'zix, Leblanc, Malzahat,"

You guys hate malzahar so much you can't even spell his name..

deoje29918 votes

item 3089 Malzahar

HeartseekerVarus16 votes

"Malzahat" - this makes the former bane of my ARAM existence sound unquestionably cute. I hope people consistently pointing out this misspelling eventually inspires a Malz skin. It could even be just normal Malzahar... but with a tophat on top of his hood.

"Malzahar's Malzahat" XD Malzahar

deoje2999 votes

item 3089 Malzahar

C Krystal Dragon9 votes

It would be amazing if they realesed this in the next U.R.F. patch item 3089 Malzahar

AlmostFriendly6 votes

I'd give them all of my money for this skin. item 3089 Malzahar

LightningShado5 votes

Make it happen Riot. please?

Malicious Metal14 votes

Do you guys think Malzahar is satisfying enough for people playing him? Because I feel he's a lot less fun than pre rework since he revolves almost entirely around his Voidswarm.

Wouldn't redistributing some of that power elsewhere in his kit make him more healthy?

Cosnirak5 votes

I think he was boring and unfun pre rework. Not saying he's good now, not even sure he's better, but he sure wasn't a great champion before either. In fact for many players he was their go to pick for when they wanted to not interact in lane and just safely push to avoid a certain matchup.

ModAcademy Kayn4 votes

I faced a Morg once as Malzahar... we approached lane, used our respective wave clear abilities, and then went back to our turret... for twenty minutes straight. My CS was off the chart.

Cosnirak3 votes

You can screw up Morg's cs in such situations by just auto attacking her and walking to the side or towards your tower. It will pull minion aggro, move her minions towards you, which get followed by your minions, thus moving them out of her W. It's why at higher ELOs the idea that Morg can just press W and clear a wave is a joke. Other methods can work as well, and generally Morg misses a lot of cs if she relies a lot on her W to kill minions, especially early on.

ModAcademy Kayn4 votes

Heh, will keep that in mind next time. Frankly, I was just amused enough to just let it happen peacefully.

NiamhNyx10 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Aesah,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=BadpFVys,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-02-08T19:53:45.545+0000)

7.3 is primarily focused on addressing champions that were too far out of line in pro play. We certainly consider how these changes affect the majority of our players too- these nerfs were warranted there as well, with many of these champs being near permaban status in normal and ranked drafts. The offenders include Camille, Ivern, Jayce, Kha'zix, Leblanc, Malzahat, Rengar, and Zyra.

Malzahat: Malzahar with a tophat.

LostFr0st9 votes

I'd be interested in knowing why you guys opted to blanket-nerf Leblanc's passive instead of addressing the frustrations with her chain. When opposing Leblanc her opponents expect her to do damage, but it's more that right now there's huge payoff for just putting 1 spell on cd.

She can close the gap with W (doesn't matter if it hits), cast chain nearly point-blank and jump back just as the chain procs. Since the tether range is pretty long, champs without a dash are forced to just accept the damage. If they trade back she still has Q to trade with, and possibly a W to follow up with depending on if she used it before the chain.

Since the passive cd is 5 seconds on the same target there's only a very small window to fight back but in order to do that you must commit and accept the E+passive dmg 100%. If you break the tether, then by the time you get close enough her passive is off cd again.

DemiluniS4 votes

she literaly throwing herself into your face being a squshy ranged champ, pretty easy to cc her or kill her during 1.5 seconds when she's trying to stay in range to proc her passive

LostFr0st3 votes

I'm talking early game, which is where they nerfed her passive. Some champs don't have that kind of burst or mobility that early to trade back. later on in the game she's fine (even mid-game too).

DemiluniS1 votes

she's an assasin, a snowball champion that dominates early to win the game. did you ever played against a talon? his burst early game is even higher. just play safe that's the only solution I can give you.

LostFr0st6 votes

I have no problem with Talon, nor with Kat or any of the other assassins they redid. Talon's passive is gated by his W, which has a 9 second cd without cdr. If he passive procs me I know I f'd up. Leblanc almost never has that gap. She either auto procs it with just E or W-->Q procs it. There's no 'gap' where someone can chose to initiate on her without getting passive proc'd unless she really messes up.

RiotAesah11 votes

We spent a lot of time testing Leblanc's tether range- we're considering larger scope changes for her, so in the meantime we're applying a damage nerf to hopefully get her out of permaban/pick status.

Spideraxe7 votes

Thoughts on Warwick after an entire patch of being live

RiotAesah30 votes

ArrwhooooooooooooOOOOOOOOOOOO

RiotSkarnye West12 votes

ARRR-WHOOOOOOOO

EROTIC RAID BOSS6 votes

I've seen people saying you guys went too light with the nerfs, and I feel like agreeing myself with rengar in particular. he's been the number 1 jungle pick recently, but his early game damage just got a pretty good buff with the lethality buff, one i'd say he really didn't need. but I'm not a high elo player, so what're your thoughts on where rengar is right now?

RiotAesah14 votes

Rengar got hit extremely hard losing CC immunity on empowered W. Hopefully he's balanced now but we'll see where he ends up- the great thing about LoL is we have more patches in the future if he isn't!

Scαrlεt Dεαth4 votes

"Yasuo is too strong omg" "Zed is op omg" "Leblanc is nuts omg" What do you think of these statements? I truly dont think those champs are excessively strong, i'd personally say Zed is in a healthy spot right now, Yasuo has been taken care of and Leblanc is on the way with this new patch. My point is: those champs are heavily stigmatized as "OP CHAMPS OH NO" in bronze - low gold, and are often banned. What do you think about that?

RiotAesah27 votes

I think players making those statements should try playing those champions. When playing against a champion, it's easy to perceive their strengths without realizing their weaknesses.

(Although to be fair some of them are quite strong at the moment.)

Quepha7 votes

I don't want to spend 6300 IP to become a filthy Yasuo player.

Nameless Voice17 votes

Most people don't hate those champions because they are OP, they hate them because they feel really frustrating and unfair to play against. No one likes not getting to have fun even if they win in the end.

NewGuy1012 votes

I believe the nerfs this patch were all necessary, props to the people in charge of it. That being said, do you think the recent changes to Daisy will prevent Ivern, the "support jungler", from helping his team in certain situations where he would have previously (such as not popping his ult in times he normally would have) or do you think this just forces Ivern to make wiser use of the rock lobster?

RiotAesah8 votes

Daisy will still be Daisy, just a decent bit less effective.

K0SMOS2 votes

Any thoughts on the state of Kindred? I have seen several posts talking about this as well as created my own but have not seen a rioter talk about this. Do you think they are in a good spot or would they need tuning?

Riotplaytestpenguin9 votes

Kindred is a weird balance case because our internal data shows that she is still very successful when played well and by players who have a decent amount of kindred games, but she suffers for the majority. Personally, I think she could use adjustments as right now I think it's strange how much of her power is concentrated early on into the game as she's supposed to be a jungling ADC and I feel that Graves fits that criteria better from a purely power-curve perspective.

Puttyblo4 votes

{quoted}

Kindred is a weird balance case because our internal data shows that she is still very successful when played well and by players who have a decent amount of kindred games, but she suffers for the majority. Personally, I think she could use adjustments as right now I think it's strange how much of her power is concentrated early on into the game as she's supposed to be a jungling ADC and I feel that Graves fits that criteria better from a purely power-curve perspective.

Have you played Kindred? Please. Pick her and go invade the enemy Khazix/Rengar/Graves at his red buff and lemme know how it works out for you. "early game" x3. 99% of the Kindred mains are trying to figure out how to fix her atrociousearly game, and only a small small hand full of players are doing mediocre on Kindred, and all of their win rates + kdas are worse than just about any jungle main out there. They're really not doing that well. Graves is basically the superior ranged jungler and quinn is sleeper broken,

Riotplaytestpenguin4 votes

Yes, I agree that the most competitively viable junglers are stronger than Kindred early. That's obvious. That doesn't change the fact that to be a successful kindred player, you pretty much have to do well through early game (despite it being weak compared to top-tiers) because your scaling is weird, and that's a problem IMO.

Keti7 votes

This is a much better statement in alignment with the thoughts of most kindred players. Using the phrase " power is concentrated early on into the game " along with what meddler has stated REALLY gives off the impression that you guys think kindred is like she was on release, way too powerful early and needs more power put into scaling. But yes, this is the dilemma most of us kindred players have. Weakish early game scaling champion that is forced into early aggression to scale. While that's not bad inherently what hurts the most is how pure luck can decide how your early game goes based on mark spawns. I definitely think you should look into making first mark never spawn on raptors as in current jungle it's almost impossible to take that early on for kindred and leaves kindred players feeling RNG screwed out of their early game 33% of the time. While at the same time if things line up for you properly with RNGesus you can get multiple marks in a very short period of time and become extremely powerful without actually doing all that much.

Riotplaytestpenguin9 votes

Not a bad suggestion. I'll raise it the next time I hear Kindred come up.

Dodge Lamb13 votes

This is embarrassing. We've been sitting here for months living with an underwhelming champion that's incredibly unhealthily balanced. We got teased with PBE buffs and had them pulled time and time again, after our champion got dumpstered consistently to the point of being deemed "unplayable", "troll" and "awful" by the general population I play with.

As a Kindred enthusiast that has dumped literally every single second of time on Kindred the moment they got released, I'm incredibly keen on seeing this data that suggests Kindred has a strong early game. It's obviously internal, but if this internal data is the same data that suggests Kha'Zix deserves a slap on the wrist albeit his ability to delete pretty much any solo target with absolutely zero counter play whatsoever, Camille takes patch upon patch to be tackled in a way that doesn't even solve her lingering issues, and Lee Sin gets hit on his ult, which has nothing to do with his unbelievably stupid ability to snowball a game ridiculously out of control with braindead effort pre-6, then I don't know what to think of you guys.

It's hard to believe any of you play at a high level if you believe these current meta champions get slaps on the wrist when Kindred got completely pounded over and over and now they're "acceptable" when just about every champion in the jungle meta beats them in almost every way. When you pick Kindred, you doom yourself to playing a game of chess just to make sure you come out of the early game anywhere near relevant while everyone else in the game is playing checkers, requiring way less risk for way more reward. Kindred doesn't have a chance toe to toe with the meta, and even junglers outside of the meta, their gank presence is squat without red buff (hence why I popularized ghost + stormraider's surge, to counter these issues, hell, I made Moon do it in LCS), and they only become relevant 25 minutes on when they actually have Hurricane complimented by a second item.

Every other jungler doesn't need items to have effective pressure in duels and skirmishes, so I don't understand why Kindred has to be absolutely paper thin with zero combat power until they have Bloodrazor. You created a marksman jungler, and guess what? Not every marksman in the game has to scale into oblivion like a traditional AD Carry. Just look at Lucian, Urgot, and Graves, they're Marksmen that are played with a more armor penetration style build, which falls off a bit more later on than a traditionally crit-based Marksman. Why can't Kindred have this similar power curve? Every Rioter comment points at Early Game being stronger and Late Game being weaker, which could not be any more of the opposite. The funniest part is that in the Kindred vs Graves matchup, Graves outmatches Kindred in the early game and in the late game, so this in itself is a hilarious statement against this perceived notion that Kindred has a "stronger" early game.

Honestly, you guys at Riot have literally no idea what you're doing with Kindred. You can't change your statement over and over because you don't know what to do, just admit it. I'd be a lot happier knowing you can't balance Kindred properly than seeing you pussyfoot around the actual issue, taunting Kindred players with your ineptitude to find the right answers to the right problem.

Edit for more statements I want to make

Heck, you even have players like Valkrin that decided to go with a Redemption + Locket build on Kindred because they could work well enough with their marks to utilize this combo. This is a spit in the face for not only Kindred's identity, but for Marksmen as a whole. It's an honest joke that even Kindred even find themselves desiring such a ridiculous build over building traditional power, because they can't do anything with it. I remember back in the day, you made an argument for Kindred's defenses being too high. If that's the case, why does Graves still get to be as durable as he is? The comparison between Kindred and Graves gets brought up a lot because you managed to hit Graves right in the sweet spot for a Marksman jungler, but for some reason you guys have found yourselves completely lost and clueless with Kindred. Something needs to change, because they simply cannot work the way they are right now.

Don't take this as if I'm trying to flame you. I'm just sick of seeing my favorite character go completely neglected because you guys just don't care enough to tackle their issues intelligently instead of consistently talking about it and doing nothing.

Øctave1 votes

The thing that I wanted to ask was what was the reasoning for no sort of buffs on serious champs, besides maybe a mini buff on Vladimir? Even though you nerfed Rengar, Kha'Zix, Jayce, etc. they are still strong enough to still be meta. Other champs like Evelynn, Sejuani, Pantheon, Kled, Gnar, etc. can't compete in the meta because they are too weak. Is it because they had such a high pick rate when they were in the meta, or is it because your trying to focus on giving these other champs a spot in the meta because they haven't been in the spot light recently?Or is it just something 100% different? Would love to hear the thoughts from the balance team on this, and to see if there is any sort of plans for buffs, since you guys interact with the balance team.

Riotplaytestpenguin12 votes

Buffs to Kled/Pantheon would be hilarious for solo queue, those champions are not suffering in the slightest.

SnowFall1 votes

{quoted}

Buffs to Kled/Pantheon would be hilarious for solo queue, those champions are not suffering in the slightest.

Pantheon isn't suffering? Really?

Riotplaytestpenguin8 votes

Yep, both of these champions are on the stronger side actually.

SnowFall1 votes

So Pantheon's "strength" totally lies in stupid spear throwing aka lane bullying which Darius does better than him, right? Then come 2-3 uber-telegraphed ganks with ult and your useless stunbot Pantheon is ready for midgame-lategame to deal zero damage overall or have his best hope to trade 1x1 because he has no escapes. I'm appalled that even Riot employee thinks there isn't a single problem with Pantheon in this meta. "Look! our internal data shows that he's successful early game!" Well, no shit, with this mindless Q throwing one-trick pony strategy that you allow to exist. Then he trades hell for that. http://imgur.com/a/P88Dm

Riotplaytestpenguin8 votes

I'm not sure what this screenshot is supposed to prove

InternalBleating1 votes

Every other champion gets fixes and buffs as soon as they're released and played through.

Not warwick though.

you people really are forcing a meta in this jungle. There's only 3-4 junglers that are worth playing. Why even bother raising WW's skill ceiling if he's not going to be going anywhere as a champ further than he was already.

This current warwick will never be played in LCS or even in Master, same as last WW.

So really, you guys haven't done ANYTHING to him.

Riotplaytestpenguin17 votes

Warwick was already played in EULCS. [slayer-pantheon-popcorn]

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