AP Itemization on PBE (8.4)

RiotNot Surrendering·2/6/2018, 8:50:32 PM·1 votes·174,475 views

Hi folks,

Wanted to drop a quick Dev Corner post to accompany the PBE drop.

TLDR: The changelist you will see today is as follows:

Longer Post **Problem Statement: **

Mage itemization is very straightforwards for most mana mages. You know what you're buying first item, second item is usually Liandries and third item is probably Void Staff. Put as a goal statement, make the AP item shop more rich and exciting for all users (including supports and manaless users).

Tactics:

First Item:

  • The earlier we can get branching choices, the greater the decision making tree becomes due to its multiplicative nature.
  • At the same time, we don't want to be overwhelming players with too many choices or it becomes paralysing; focused items aid decision making in this case (one of the reasons I split out Liandry's, more on this later).
  • If the first 2900 gold of yours is static (4000 if you include boots), 15 minutes is already spent making no decisions regarding itemisation.
  • What is important for this structure?
  • Designing this choice structure is somewhat aided by the relational depth of lane matchups. Even the worst laners can have some good matchups (if they are against an even worse champion) and some different win conditions.
  • Let's say I'm playing Lux mid, I can have good, bad, farm matchups just within my lane, let alone if I factor in the jungler.
  • Maybe against Galio, since it's unlikely I'll one shot him, I could opt for the scaling Archangel's build.
  • Maybe against Annie, I want poke damage from Luden's because I outrange her.
  • Maybe against Xerath, I want to hit confirm my skills so I opt into GLP to catch him in a binding and land my full combo.
  • Maybe if you have a bad back, you want to go for a fallback Tear of the Goddess that you otherwise might not have considered.
  • Soft synergies with this approach are also of benefit; the more base damage you have (from Luden's or GLP), the more attractive Flat Pen options become. If you are planning on getting an early Deathcap, maybe Archangels is better (because you will have more AP), maybe you might consider a second mana item to boost your Archangel's mana ratio.
  • Ultimately, we decided on GLP (catch), Ludens (poke) and Archangel's Staff (scaling) for first item options (with ROA still as an option of course).

Second Item onwards (First item for non-mana users):

Spellbound Orb (Pure offense/greed slot) New item?!!?!/!/1!:

  • Moving Luden's away to first item leaves us with a hole in the pure offense/greed slot.
  • Wanted to find an item that is functional, but also fun and exciting.
  • I wanted an item that gets more value when fighting a lot/being in bloody games as opposed to when the game is relatively slow/split out.
  • https://i.imgur.com/6iuNWEu.png

Mana Items Second:

  • Loosening the restrictions on stacking mana items, we arrived on a system that gives you most of the benefits of going two 20% CDR items without being broken together. This is to gain 10% CDR from any additional Lost Chapter items (the haste passive).
  • Should you want to have infinite mana or to round out 30% with Transcendence/Lucidity, then maybe this is a good option.
  • https://i.imgur.com/hlMTTFm.png

Liandry's Identity:

  • Liandry's has a split identity on Live, it is both about the Flat Pen and the % Current HP tank busting profile.
  • This makes it generally good against all targets (live state) OR underpowered.
  • As a result, we wanted to split out the Flat Pen from the burn that Liandry's is associated with, this made sense to put on Morellos.
  • This meant we needed to find a passive that makes sense for these types of patterns (a passive that synergizes with DoT champs).
  • https://i.imgur.com/pT2gR2t.png

Morello's Cursed Tome:

  • We knew this item item needed to have GW (better nerf Irelia).
  • Putting Flat Pen on this item is a signal to the player that the Grievous Wounds is to be used against more squishy champions (as opposed to if there's a Maokai).
  • Of course, it's still useful against Maokai or Mundo, but maybe Executioner's Calling is better for that.
  • The GW effect can be far more powerful on this item if it's not seen every game like Morellonomicon was (still a working assumption to be borne out, maybe it's too much for healers to deal with).
  • Having GW on this item allows manaless champs to consider it on first buy, especially with the attractive Flat Pen.
  • https://i.imgur.com/6R0LKYS.png

Twin Shadows:

  • With more income from not having to buy Sightstone, we are marketing Twin Shadows as an attractive option for supports looking to hunt down their targets.
  • This item fights against Flat Pen, Liandries, Rylais and other items.
  • Of course, maybe champs that really like roaming and hunting from mid occasionally look at this too, but that's less of a desired goal.
  • We tried a 20% CDR, AP, Mana version of this on mid lane (for quite a while) to fill a roaming niche, but concerns of 6 of these in a game at once from Mid/Jg/Supp on both teams was quite hosing for all the junglers and for certain types of champions (eg. Akali).
  • https://i.imgur.com/tMHBRtl.png

**Small Tweaks: **

Void Staff

  • 80 AP >>> 70 AP
  • Void staff is just generally too efficient against all targets, rather against the ones stacking MR.

Rylai's

  • 75 AP >>> 85 AP
  • We nerfed Rylais in previous patches, and left it in a relatively underpowered state since then.
  • Given how much perma slows tend to invalidate melee champions, being careful with this one (but the slow is nowhere as strong as it was before).

Deathcap

  • AP Amp 35% >>> 40%
  • The item was just not living up to its late game fantasy.
  • Maybe some champs consider it 3rd sometimes (or even second), especially when going heavy AP builds.

782 Comments

Adalvar2/6/2018, 9:09:44 PM69 votes

Hum, problem with Deathcap isn't so much the % amp, but cost and buildpath. So as long as those don't change, it will remain at the wayside.

EDIT: rest seems nice, would have like for some changes to Rod of Ages, but i'll take what i can get.

Karppa2/6/2018, 10:10:39 PM60 votes

item 3802 25 AP item 1026 40 AP item 1052 20 AP Total 85 AP from components

item 3285 gives 80 AP in total. I hope this will be looked at, it's definitely mildly infuriating to lose 5 AP upon completing the item

warpenguin5552/6/2018, 9:13:40 PM47 votes

Disappointed by the Deathcap changes. I was hoping the build path would get changed in a way where it didn't feel like I was sitting on gold forever

Radiant Seraph2/6/2018, 9:05:37 PM45 votes

No one's gonna even consider Deathcap at 3800 gold, even if you buff the amp a little

Wolfeur2/6/2018, 10:13:23 PM42 votes

I know it's a detail, but could you please keep the name Morellonomicon? It's iconic, and a nice reference.

Landorin2/6/2018, 9:34:17 PM38 votes

Maybe I'm missing something, but for a standard AP build, aren't you going to lose AP in the end?

Mana items -> -20 AP from current Morello Void Staff -> -10 AP Deathcap -> +5% AP (= probably +20-25 in normal builds).

If you build Rylai's you break even. Otherwise you straight up lose out. Isn't this overall a net loss for nearly everyone?

LeBlunt Ferrahri2/6/2018, 9:35:36 PM33 votes

The actual itemization in need would be having QSS build into an AP item, like what they did with stopwatch.

InTheory2/6/2018, 9:16:18 PM26 votes

AP Items are still pretty expensive in regards of the crit items prices.

cocacolalips2/6/2018, 9:33:20 PM25 votes

What about ARAM? Spellbound Orb is going to be broken with so many champions clustered together casting spells, and the last thing we need are mages stomping aram games even harder.

Riotplaytestpenguin2/6/2018, 9:06:08 PM23 votes

I'll also hang around in this thread as I've been testing these changes pretty actively if anyone wants to ask any questions

ModThe Djinn2/6/2018, 9:27:41 PM21 votes

Liking what I see so far, but I have one big question.

Given that Archangel's Staff is positioned as a big, late-game scaling item, has there been any consideration about how certain mages interact with it? I'm thinking specifically of mages like Lux, Morgana, Malzahar, and other mages who would love to be able to opt into late-game scaling power, but lack the spellcasting frequency to effectively use these items, whether due to mana costs, strategic spells that you typically save for the right opportunity, or just general lack of spell-spam. This was less of an issue previously, but with Archangel's intentionally positioned into this slot I have some concern that it may still end up effectively locked out of a lot of mage's itemization.

I'm wondering if reducing the number of stacks Tear gains from spellcasting but putting a baseline on tear acquisition (or lowering the total stack number) might assist in this. Thoughts? I know I'd love to be able to consider Archangel's on a wider number of characters without feeling punished for not playing, say, Ryze or Cassiopeia, and right now I'm not entirely convinced that the item as it is currently designed supports that.

Lusth2/6/2018, 9:25:35 PM12 votes

What about the mana refund that was previously on morellos? Not every mage is able to use tear effectively. 500 mana from ludens is not enough. Whats gonna happen when you run out of mana in teamfights

RavenHusky2/6/2018, 9:08:16 PM8 votes

I'm guessing the Haste unique passive is to mitigate Transcendance shenanigans?

Erablier2/6/2018, 9:31:48 PM2 votes

Will Twin Shadows get an updated icon or are you waiting till you know if it'll still be called Twin Shadows before changing the icon?