Hey Mods, I can call out arrogance when I see it - why do you delete that?

SaltyToplaneGoat·Sep 6, 2018·5 votes·2,072 views

I mean, just to put it into comparison, I didn't show blatant sexism or insulted 90% of the people frequenting this board. As you see, I am completly safe and not over the border of the "unacceptable". Don't try making me the bad guy here with telling me "I'm being a jerk" when Riot themselves apparently have re-defined where jerky behavior starts or ends, and as we all have learned, as long as it's not attacking literally everyone and also full of sexism and possible racism, you are apparently NOT A JERK AND SUFFER NOT A SINGLE CONSEQUENCE FROM THAT.

As long as Riot does not respond to the scandal, you gotta deal with it. Don't you dare deleting stuff now, we ain't got no time for that double standard!

23 Comments

ModThe DjinnSep 6, 20185 votes

There is calling out arrogance, and then there is being condescending and insulting while calling out arrogance. Here's your removed comment, which is definitely the latter, and thus not allowed.

I'm almost impressed, A-Class Player Behavior denzien right there. I'll save your posts, because hoi I doubt I'll ever meet a better specimen for my cringe collection studies. The arrogance, the hint of white-knighting, the presence only motivated by an impulse to fuel a superiority complex while trying to speak on the behlf of a whole group. It's like the quintessence of this sub - a fine addition to my collection.

zolikingSep 6, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=IUwTRK5Z,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-09-06T03:11:04.687+0000)

There is calling out arrogance, and then there is being condescending and insulting while calling out arrogance. Here's your removed comment, which is definitely the latter, and thus not allowed.

You know, I can see how insulting others would be problematic in a mod's eyes, even if I don't agree with it, but condescension, really? The position you seem to come from seems to be that everybody should be treated with equal respect. But that would only make sense if everybody deserved equal respect from the morons and the trolls, through people who just express opinions with some level of sense to the true community builders. You should definitely ease off condescension, it may look unseemly to you as a mod, but it's a useful and fun tool in conversation.

ModThe DjinnSep 6, 20183 votes

{quoted}The position you seem to come from seems to be that everybody should be treated with equal respect.

Yep. The Golden Rule on the boards is "always be respectful to players, community members, moderators, and Rioters." If you don't think someone deserves your respect, that's fine -- just don't respond to them. We're not telling you want to think, but simply how to comport yourself when engaging with others on the boards.

zolikingSep 6, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=IUwTRK5Z,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2018-09-06T12:16:52.447+0000)

Yep. The Golden Rule on the boards is "always be respectful to players, community members, moderators, and Rioters." If you don't think someone deserves your respect, that's fine -- just don't respond to them. We're not telling you want to think, but simply how to comport yourself when engaging with others on the boards.

Treating strangers with respect is a fine policy that I adhere to; as a starting point. But if somebody goes on a moronic tyrade of nonsense, and manages to lose that baseline respect, why, in your opinion, are my only two options let them have the last word, no matter how stupid it is, or treat their nonsense the same as valid points from somebody putting forward a serious argument?

I had some pretty unpopular opinions while posting on these boards in the past and I hit the point with people where I lost any baseline respect of theirs plenty of times, because the points I made were moronic in their eyes. They came at me condescending, disrespectful and insulting. Somehow I managed to go on with those debates without crying my heart out, getting hurt feelings or quitting the boards. Dealing with condescending assholes (including myself when I hit that point in a conversation) is simply something one has to do when engaging with strangers over the internet.

All's I'm saying is that requiring people to start off conversations with respect makes all the sense. Maintainging that respect over time regardless of circumstances is unlifelike.

ModThe DjinnSep 6, 20181 votes

{quoted}Treating strangers with respect is a fine policy that I adhere to; as a starting point. But if somebody goes on a moronic tyrade of nonsense, and manages to lose that baseline respect, why, in your opinion, are my only two options let them have the last word, no matter how stupid it is, or treat their nonsense the same as valid points from somebody putting forward a serious argument?

A third option exists: "I don't believe you are seriously interested in continuing this discussion in a reasonable, objective manner, so I will be disengaging from this conversation."

zolikingSep 7, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=IUwTRK5Z,comment-id=00020000000000000000,timestamp=2018-09-06T20:53:05.069+0000)

A third option exists: "I don't believe you are seriously interested in continuing this discussion in a reasonable, objective manner, so I will be disengaging from this conversation."

So lie to them and stop in the middle of the argument to spare their feewings? Just fyi, somebody saying something before they quit a dabate is not them having the last word, that has to be relevant to the topic at hand.

Oh, also, I don't believe you are seriously interested in continuing this discussion in a reasonable, objective manner, so I will be disengaging from this conversation.

Imperial PandaaSep 6, 20184 votes

Let me go ahead and throw this out.

The Mods are not Riot Employees. They a volunteers from the community.

Second, there is a correct way to post and an incorrect way. The boards have rules that still need followed.

SaltyToplaneGoatSep 6, 20181 votes

Say, have we any guarentee on that? Can we truly assume that all of the mod people are completly independent normal dudes? I mean, we can't really say for sure. The "submarines" on the Mod team surely won't come out and say "yupp, we're actually paid for this", as that would harm their "street cred" or whatever you'd call the online variant of it. I mean, this is a completly legitimate tactic of big corporations, there are even whole companies out there that just try to get reddit accounts and stuff into positions that are interesting for a company and sell those accounts to them. Wherever there's money to be made you can expect someone to jump in, and thank god that the internet is international, so you might as well outsource that to India or China or wherever.

The thing is: you can't prove or disprove anything, because the mod in the end is just some random internet anon with a fancy name, he might be a Rioter, he might be not, until some insider puts out some leaks we'll never know.

Do you seriously think a company would just give away the control of a social space THEY have created? I don't think so. The problem now is that this boiled up too quickly too fast, and unlike reddit where they deleted literally anything now for whatever bullshit reason and spam substance-less esport posts manically, here it sticks. Them openly showing strong influence on the site would be the final PR-death.

Tl,dr: I doubt that truly all of them are not actually from Riot. Not even they are that stupid of a company.

ModThe DjinnSep 6, 20183 votes

{quoted}Say, have we any guarantee on that? Can we truly assume that all of the mod people are completely independent normal dudes?

Yes. Yes we can. We're not paid, we have other jobs/classes/families/etc., and we're just picked by Riot to do volunteer work for the community we enjoy.

Do you seriously think a company would just give away the control of a social space THEY have created?

I mean, they didn't fully give it away. We have a few Riot contacts to ensure that we don't all go AWOL and start, say, allowing hate speech on the boards. We approve especially major decisions (such as new rules we've drafted or new boards we want to create) with Riot, but yeah, we have a lot of autonomy, even so far as things like creating new rules go.

Edit: And, yes, the easy counterargument is "but you're obviously lying," but at some point Occam's Razor has to kick in, and it's frankly far easier to believe that some people with some company oversight volunteered to moderate a community we like than that Riot has decided to mix a few fully secret operatives in an otherwise volunteer group and NOT make them the ones in that group that get to have the final say on big decisions. I know the careers of the other Heralds -- we chat about it. They're NOT Rioter employees, and neither am I, and we get to make most of the final volunteer team calls, so what would be the POINT of hidden Rioter employees, especially when non-hidden employees can see our communications already?

SaltyToplaneGoatSep 6, 20181 votes

So you admit being "on the leash" with some "autonomy", although that might as well mean for the most of the time you get to do whatever, but once something special like this happens you gotta do what the big boss says? Or how do we have to understand that?

For reference, I doubt that on literally any single board or sub-reddit the entire mod-team is a corporate conspiracy. However, it takes only three or four individuals that can easy shift everything around, social engeneering is a thing after all. We kind of got that issue in the reddit for Magic the Gathering, which has devolved into "corporate advertisment space" fuelled by a Echo-Chamber of ever-smiling yay-sayners that allows no negative aspects or criticism whatsoever. The LoL subreddit is equally suspicious, but I honestly doubt the situation on here is as bad as it is over there. However, to assume there would be no inflence of Riot over this platform is absurd.

The question is just: how big is the inflence exactly?

ModThe DjinnSep 6, 20182 votes

{quoted}Or how do we have to understand that?

That the volunteer team gets to make and enforce a lot of the rules, but we obviously operate under Riot as a company, so we operate under their behavioral rules. I.E. we can adjust and relax or tighten rules, push out board changes, etc., but we're not going to get permission to say "hate speech is now okay."

However, to assume there would be no inflence of Riot over this platform is absurd.

The question is just: how big is the inflence exactly?

In theory they can enforce whatever they want, including disbanding the moderation team. In practice I can't say I've EVER felt that Riot is forcing my hand on a board or moderation related thing I've experienced.

SaltyToplaneGoatSep 6, 20181 votes

Btw has Riot commented to you guys about the recent disaster? Or rather disasters, as DZK appears to make up a new one every single day it seems? I mean, if they wanted you to stop this from blowing up, it's a bit too late for that, just look at the frontpage for that matter.

I mean obviously they say "make sure the boards don't go crazy" (bold of them to assume we were sane to begin with), but did anything out of the ordinary happen? Generally the Reds posting seem to be very careful to just act like absolutly nothing is going on - and for some I don't really blame them. Imagine just doing your job as a lore dude while a department three rooms down that you got nothing to do with makes half the boards explode - there's not much you can do about it. However, there appears to be a common thread, as if there was an internal agreement for boards interaction. Maybe just of unrelated dudes just telling each other not to get into the drama, maybe it was an order form above - the question is now how the Mod team is affected by all of this.

ModThe DjinnSep 6, 20181 votes

{quoted}Btw has Riot commented to you guys about the recent disaster?

I don't know anything you guys don't know, no.

...the question is now how the Mod team is affected by all of this.

We have more threads to clean up, because some people can't discuss the subject within the board rules, and we grant a little more leeway on the social discussions provided they A: stay within discussing this topic as it relates to Riot and B: follow the other board rules. That's pretty much it. So basically the ONLY effect on the boards is that the rules are a little more relaxed than usual.

SaltyToplaneGoatSep 6, 20181 votes

So basically the ONLY effect on the boards is that the rules are a little more relaxed than usual.

Well it's not like you have much of a choice there to be completly honest. If you give of the image of surpressing discussion here, that would be just another ingredient to the already boiling controvery pot. The crowd is out for blood, and I doubt the mods here are popular and iconic enough that people wouldn't throw you all under the bus for their quest for justice, all while you are percieved as the prolonged arm of the corporation, which would damage the Mod-Team's "online-street-cred" or whatever you'd call it for a LONG time.

Maybe the rules are more "relaxed" right now, but that's not really a mercy granted by the mod-team, but more of a necessity resulting from the situation at hand. Until this mess is over you can't do much besides laying low, any moderative action risks of fanning the flames even harder.

Also to be honest I don't see much of relaxed rules when you ban posts like mine. The Player Behavior board literally exists for the sake of arrogant white-knighting twats who come there to laugh at the banned (who should exclusively communicate with support for that matter), just as in medival times the peasant crowd gathered around the pillory. Just because the truth sounds sad and condescending, it doesn't really make it any less true. And I personally stick to the common rule: it's not an insult if it's true, because then all you do is pointing out a matter of fact.

ModThe DjinnSep 6, 20181 votes

{quoted}Maybe the rules are more "relaxed" right now, but that's not really a mercy granted by the mod-team, but more of a necessity resulting from the situation at hand.

You're welcome to perceive it as you wish. I'm merely stating the effect on the boards, which is what you asked.

Also to be honest I don't see much of relaxed rules when you ban posts like mine.

The rules are relaxed on the subject of social discussion, not on the subject of insults and condescending comments. You may feel "it's not an insult if it's true," but even if we agreed, the manner in which you presented your content was still against the rules. I'm sorry if you disagree with that assessment, but ultimately I can't make you agree.

SaltyToplaneGoatSep 6, 20181 votes

So let me get this straight. A Riot employe can be blatantly sexist, racist, insults the whole community, and tells people to kill themselves as part of a nasty joke - all things you could (and SHOULD) be definetly banned for from the game. Yet, he apparently gets company-support to the point that he thinks himself invulnerable enough that he can keep posting toxic stuff like he does.

Meanwhile I make a post telling someone they fit right into their home-board with the negative traits they display without using a single cussword, but suddenly I am suddenly the bad guy here? Seriously, that does not much up.

You can't delete posts for "I think you are a little mean here", because this is literally all that it is. Safe that for the actual stuff that is supposed to get deleted, not something that might leave a minor dent on someone's vulnerable ego. If that was the new standard, we might delete literally 90% of this whole website and the entire chatting function in the game client altogether.

ModThe DjinnSep 6, 20181 votes

{quoted}So let me get this straight. A Riot employe can be blatantly sexist, racist, insults the whole community, and tells people to kill themselves as part of a nasty joke - all things you could (and SHOULD) be definetly banned for from the game. Yet, he apparently gets company-support to the point that he thinks himself invulnerable enough that he can keep posting toxic stuff like he does.

Meanwhile I make a post telling someone they fit right into their home-board with the negative traits they display without using a single cussword, but suddenly I am suddenly the bad guy here? Seriously, that does not much up.

I can't speak for Riot on that issue, nor will I attempt to. My role is to enforce the board rules on content posted to the boards. What a Rioter says or does outside of that -- and how Riot as a company responds -- is not something I have any level of influence over, nor something I particularly wish to comment on. What people say on the boards, however, is something I do have influence over, and the rules are clear on what we do and do not allow here.

You can't delete posts for "I think you are a little mean here."

I have explained why your content was removed, and that I consider the removal justified. You're welcome to come to the moderation Discord and chat to another moderator if you wish, but I'm fairly sure they will agree with my view here.

SaltyToplaneGoatSep 6, 20183 votes

The rule the removal is based on is too vague and therefore not a legit basis for such a decision. "Don't be a jerk" can literally be anything - as we all learned apparently you can literally "oppress" half the world population by the virtue of existing in the right eyes. So if someone randomly decides what is "being a jerk" and what is not, that's not a basis to work on. It's highly subjective, and especially not suitable for the moderation of an international platform like the boards, where different cultural standards and debate cultures mix.

I do not mind rules on such a platform, and I see the necessity of it, but the rules need to be clear and consistent - there's no place for subjective sensitivity here! ESPECIALLY not as the basis for deleting things.

Also yeah of course they agree, birds of a feather flock together and all - if you as the Mod team were to admit mistakes it would undermine your overall legitimation and authority, so I'm not even going to bother. For that, I know the dynamics just a little bit TOO well.

ModThe DjinnSep 6, 20181 votes

Also yeah of course they agree, birds of a feather flock together and all - if you as the Mod team were to admit mistakes it would undermine your overall legitimation and authority...

We've identified, admitted, and reversed decisions before on multiple occasions. You personally thinking it's a mistake is not, however, sufficient grounds for reversal.

SaltyToplaneGoatSep 6, 20183 votes

Yeah but you are not exactly famous for that. Reality in a medial context does not matter. Public perception does, as that dicatetes your surroundings and those are defining your position.

Also interesting how you ignored the actually important part of the post intentionally. It appears your will to actually engage in conversation only goes as far as to pick out things where you think you can definetly proof me wrong. I would love it if people actually stopped cherry picking one thing every time when I respond to every single point they bring up, but they only ever respond to one. That's just lame.

ModThe DjinnSep 6, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Speedweeb,realm=EUW,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=IUwTRK5Z,comment-id=00010000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-09-06T17:54:26.709+0000Yeah but you are not exactly famous for that.

I don't really care about being famous or not. shrug

Also interesting how you ignored the actually important part of the post intentionally.

I didn't really want to enter a debate on it. I understand that some people don't like the fact that the rule is slightly open-ended, and all I can really say to them is "I'm sorry you feel that way, but it's something we've discussed and we're not interested in changing it at this time."

THUNDERKATS HOOOSep 6, 20181 votes

The open-endedness of the rules, and especially the 'less enforcement' of rules lately, is a problem.

It's like you know who the bad and good guys are in the situation, and you're over punishing the good guys because 'they should know better to be good' and then actually just letting the bad guys get passes all together. I agree 100% with this whole OP over the consequence of his removal verses what is typically left to dry on boards forever, especially lately. It's why I was pissed over my removals in the other topic, when the reasoning behind my removals were far more erroneous than the conversations I was dealing with being ignored in the first place. It's irritating to have your post removed from a thread that shouldn't even exist, with extremely vague reasons behind it that apply to every single post within the thread. And then your post addressing others homophobic slurs or sexism is removed first while their posts remain.

"Dont be a jerk" needs a rework. He is right. I should be allowed to be slightly jerky to people with prejudice, and at least be punished equally to them if so.

Deleting the threads sounds best.