Riot: Nidalee make Pro matches very boring to watch.

Kikirino·Jun 15, 2014·3 votes·569 views

I love watching the Pro matches. Be it LCS or Worlds. But Nidalee is so boring to watch. Seeing the same champions over and over (top lane is almost always Jax/Renekton) is boring but they can make some interesting plays. Nidalee just spams her spear and heals. That is it. If she lands a spear her team gets an objective. Not fun to see. When Nidalee is played there seems to be less team interaction. Her team waits for her to poke. Enemy team tries to dodge poke and base if you get hit. Team fights dont happen. It is just a waiting game. Team fights are fun. Safe, time stalling poking is not fun.

30 Comments

CerbearusJun 16, 20142 votes

Did you watch LMQ vs EG on Saturday? EG was clearly winning but LMQ turtled for so long that as soon as Nidalee landed a spear, the game ended. (after 48 minutes of watching her farm out 528 cs).

No idea why I watched it. I was expecting something to happen all game but it never did...

SilverclawJun 16, 20142 votes

Hold your horses, the Nidalee rework is coming next patch.

NinjaFiferJun 16, 20141 votes

Yeah, they said that about the Rengar bug fixes and power rebalancing still took them two to three patches to give him his claws back. There's a reason why any use of the word "soon," when in reference to Riot, has it in quotation marks.

Thanotos OmegaJun 16, 20142 votes

Dude she has a rework on the PBE, they are literally way ahead of you,

KikirinoJun 16, 20142 votes

I have played the rework. It isn't much better. She gets her ult at level one. Meaning she has her pounce escape pre 6 and that is stupid. Her spear is still going to wreck your health and she still has her heal. It wasn't a rework. They just tweaked her a little.

Thanotos OmegaJun 16, 20143 votes

It's still being worked on, hence why it's on the PBE,

And Nid's Problem isn't being OP it's being Boring for both her player and the enemy to play against,

NinjaFiferJun 16, 20141 votes

Precisely what he's saying. "Boring" is literally in the title.

Thanotos OmegaJun 16, 20141 votes

I wasn't referring to OP, I already pointed out to him that Nid has a rework aimed at making her a harassment assassin hybrid,

I was talking to the person to whom replied to my comment,

NinjaFiferJun 16, 20141 votes

Uh, that was the OP. Regardless, he's still saying that her rework may take a bit off her ridiculous spear damage, but it's giving her her spammable escape from level 1, and she still has a decent heal. He's saying that she still has all the things that made her boring to start with, only tweaked a little.

MackleDogeJun 16, 20142 votes

That is unarguably a rework. That's simple definition, so let's not waste time arguing over that. As far as the current state of it on PBE, it's still in testing, and while it is pretty much unarguable to say that it still needs tuning, Riot has stated from the beginning that the Javelin Toss would still do a healthy amount of damage (which it should) but that it would be toned back and adjusted in other manners (the hitbox being fixed to actually match the skillshot) in order to make it so that Nidalee is actually required to use the rest of her kit to be at her most efficient state.

BLU MedicJun 17, 20142 votes

For those saying "there's a change to Nidalee coming soon!", that doesn't really matter as long as Nidalee is still waiting in the fog of war, spamming spears at people and getting the team to charge in the second one connects. And since it's a safe and incredibly easy tactic, why shouldn't a Nidalee do that?

As long as those spears still chunk away a lot of health in one go and can be spammed, a game with a Nidalee in it is going to be less interesting than one where everyone's at each other's throats.

12talesJun 16, 20141 votes

For the record, we've seen Lulu, Jax, Aatrox, Shyvana, Kayle, Irelia and Renekton on 4.9. Go back another patch and you'll get Ryze and Trundle thrown in, plus a Kassadin top in the OGN qualifiers and a Yasuo top in EUCS (iirc). Top lane is significantly more diverse than you imply.

More on topic, I'm a big fan of Nidalee, because she means there're options for teams that don't want to just go at each other's throats. ALL vs. GMB this past week is a good example of why I like her - kiting and poking needs to be a competitive strategy, or teams like Alliance's (Shyvana, Anivia and Kog'Maw iirc) are essentially able to roflstomp anything in 5v5s and just take dragon after dragon before barreling down mid. Nidalee gives inferior teamfighting teams the tools to fight back against that.

I'm hoping that her rework doesn't prevent her from being an effective choice in siege comps, since if she's gone, we've got... Ziggs. And maybe Lulu if she goes for an early Sheen.

MackleDogeJun 16, 20141 votes

A single spear that nukes someone's health down to a quarter isn't meaningful gameplay, regardless of what excuses are made.

12talesJun 16, 20141 votes

Fun to watch, though. Which is the discussion actually relevant to this thread.

MackleDogeJun 16, 20141 votes

That's the exact opposite of fun to watch.

12talesJun 16, 20141 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaKO-NvTJwk

MackleDogeJun 16, 20141 votes

Not fun to watch. I'm a C9 fan, and I still don't want to see a game where Hai doesn't do anything other than act like a spear turret. It's boring, it has no real interaction, and it's being justly changed.

12talesJun 16, 20141 votes

You seem to be in the minority.

MackleDogeJun 16, 20141 votes

Wouldn't be the first time the majority was wrong. Besides, the only thing that actually matters is that Riot agrees, which is why she is being changed. GG.

NinjaFiferJun 16, 20141 votes

This thread is also not a "Nidalee is OP" thread, it's a "Nidalee is boring as shit if you're not the one playing AS her" thread. In general, I feel that siege comps are boring as a class, and would find it interesting if Riot moved more of the siege team's power to their ultimates, or longer cooldowns on regular abilities. This might make a siege comp more of a "we need to all land our abilities in a coordinated attack to push them off tower" and not a "spam abilities from max range until the enemy fails to dodge one" playstyle.

Edit: I'd also like to point out that 7 champs out of 119 is not diverse at all. Even if you assume only 1/5 of the champion pool is geared for top (which is still undercutting it, since Kayle and Lulu are in your list, and they are geared for mid/support, so 1/5 is actually smaller than what the viable pool should be), 7/24 is still incredibly NOT diverse.

12talesJun 16, 20141 votes

I enjoy seeing intelligent play. Lucian Nidalee comps effectively multiply errors in decision making made by both teams, which makes for much more exciting games (to me) than two squads of 5 just meeting up in front of dragon and having at each other. I guess that it'd be a pretty boring comp if you're more of a 'giant explosions' man, but to each their own.

Also, I'd love to get your thoughts on Junglers, ADCs and Supports if you think 7-9 champs is small for a competitive role.

NinjaFiferJun 17, 20142 votes

I'm not necessarily saying that Top is worse than any other role; the whole game has some pretty serious balance issues. I'm just saying that, by pure numbers, if 7.5% (9/119) of your champions are competitive for a role that occupies 20% of the game, there are some balance issues to be worked on.

I understand the interest in watching a game that is based purely on positioning skill, but there are no real crunch points... no initiations, no assassinations, no anything risky. Nid literally just pokes all day long with spears, and any time anyone gets close, she pounces away. Even poking her is pretty much useless, since she has one of the most powerful heals in the game. Sure, you might catch her out, but she'd have to be in a really bad position for that to happen, meanwhile any spear hit causes your opponent to HAVE to back or get blown up in the ensuing teamfight. Poke and siege based games are more like chess, but there is a very small portion of the fanbase that actually enjoys watching chess. Most would prefer to watch paint dry.

12talesJun 17, 20141 votes

I'm in a small fanbase, then. I just hope that Riot can make Nidalee fun to play against without hitting siege comps in general.

Also, there are a few ways to think about champ diversity. You could think of it as 'only ~1/3 of the champs who should be competitively viable are.' Or you could say, 'people are willing to stake thousands of dollars and their careers on over a third of the theoretical champ pool for top.' Which I think is pretty cool.

NinjaFiferJun 17, 20141 votes

Wouldn't it instead be cooler to see pros be able to play the champion they want, instead of one of 1/3 of the theoretical pool? If champions were balanced properly, you'd see pro players pulling off bigger plays and having even more synergy within their teams since they could play whatever champions they were specialized in, instead of just the FOTM ones.

Since said FOTM champs are so imbalanced, you also see so many of the teams in pro tournaments picking the same ones. This game has 119 champions, maybe 1/3 of them are viable... maybe... leaving 40 champs. 10 are picked per game, and 6 are banned, so you can imagine how viewers can get tired of the same stale champions making the same stale plays in every pro tourney. I'd rather watch a game that brings new content every match, than a game that supports watching reruns.

PS: I would like to clarify: I don't expect perfect balance. There will always be champions that are better mathematically, but that mathematical difference should be as small as possible, such that your familiarity with the champion can make up for the numbers difference, even in high elo. You should be able to walk blindly into any match with your favorite champion and expect to be able to do well against all but your counters. You should never feel that your favorite champion is just underpowered. You should never feel bad playing your favorite champion.

12talesJun 17, 20141 votes

Youngbuck continues to play Vladimir on occasion. Doublelift's the only one to pull out Sivir since the summer split began iirc. PoohManDu busted out Zilean support during the OGN masters finals. Airwaks is pretty much the only person who plays Yorick in the entire LCS. I'd also like to point out Duke's top lane tank Kassadin again, as well as Edward's numerous unconventional support picks (Kennen, Vel'Koz and Gragas being standouts). Hai was playing midlane Kha'Zix every game for a week of LCS. Genja is one of the only ADCs who still plays Caitlyn, and Froggen is 2 - 1 on his Anivia. We saw Shiphtur play Ahri just a few days ago, and XiaoWeiXiao has played Pantheon mid. Prolly pulled out Annie mid a week or so ago (and won with it at that). We've also seen fredy122 playing Aatrox in the top lane, which I mentioned earlier. And that's just this split.

It is cool to watch pros play the champions they want. I see it every week.

NinjaFiferJun 17, 20141 votes

Surprised so many play such risky picks when so much money is on the line. Every one of these abnormal picks was done during games that affected their chance for prizes?

FlemmanJun 16, 20141 votes

They should just put stack for each javelin toss (max4/5?) who lower by 1 every 10 second and decrease her heal ability by a ratio per each stacks. Then the nida player should have to choose betwen harrass or heal

New MordeJun 17, 20141 votes

Nidalee is going to be gutted anyways so don't worry.

12talesJun 17, 20141 votes

Re: thefifeman

The games I mentioned vary a bit. In all of the split games, playoff seeding is at stake. I believe that youngbuck played Vladimir in the Copenhagen Wolves' relegation match, which is obviously a very high pressure environment. PoohManDu's Zilean support was played in a match where ~28,000 USD were on the line, plus seeding for worlds. Duke's Kassatank was played in the qualifiers for OGN, so there's a lot at stake there (although you could argue about how much danger there was of Anarchy taking the set).

KhodexusJun 24, 20141 votes

Well Nidalee was 'updated' but the problem was not fixed. If anything it's slightly worse now, because it's easier for those Nid players to get their spears between minions now.

Honestly, I feel by far the best suggestion I've heard for how to fix Nidalee is to reverse the damage/distance ratio. They seem to want to encourage Nidalee to use her cougar form more, so how about making the javelin do the most damage right up close and personal, where they are most likely to then transform and engage close up? Also makes her enemies have to decide if they want to risk coming in close.

Long range can still poke, and still mark enemies, but it's no longer a perfectly safe game-changing harass.