Help me find what's wrong with these team, or me, it's the same

Elendil Dagorlad·Jan 29, 2015·1 votes·1,608 views

Hi all. I attached the match history link. These are my provisional matches+ 1. I won 6/10 games in total. 1- fiddle jungle: First lost We were all bad...me too. np, happens. 2- heimer mid: Second game, i was mid against zed...outfarmed him, bottom and top started to fed, lee kamized zed and gifted him 1 kill, 2 ganks for me = 2 death, with their jungler roaming on me cause other lanes (especially bottom) were fed. I died the majority of time trying to secure objectives (i did first dragon alone cause my team was doing i don't know what). I don't know what should i ve done to win this... look at this bottom lane....... 3- supporting alistar: we were doing right until jinx went afk at minute 12...she came back like at minute 16, when they're ahead and the game lost... 4- heimer mid: I was again mid, ~9/2/x at minute 30, outfarmed and destroyed lux. Nasus meanwhile fed lee sin and just farmed the whole game / chased them all game, caring less for objectives. I talked and pinged all the game to ask for help at baron, dragons etc, nasus not listening and adc doing shit like chasing them in their jungler or going top alone, pinged to back, and killed finally in their bushes. I was doing well and nasus with his farming and chasing got kills and we were a lot ahed in money. Sona was ONLY ap, not a mr, not armor, I asked them to focus adc, sona and lux, they constantly chased tanks -.-° we lost the game, I don't know how is it possible...

5 - (the 11th game, I was already silver 4, but just for talking....) pantheon jungle.... i started gromp, blue, red, backed, wraiths golems (cause bottom asked for help, they're really low), went bottom, and after some camping got an assist. meanwhile, acssiopeia was good, but jax fed seriously. at minute 6 he was 0 3, without a damn gank. I leaved bottom, 1 min after they got killed, without ganks -.-° i didn't farm a lot, trying to help bottom, and i was behind compared to zac. Jax secured a kill at minute 11, oh no wait, he got a kill but he DIED again: 1/4, fiora 4/1. Bottom lost towers, fiora started to roam, the game was lost.

Now the point. I am not saying I am better then anyone. I know I suck, I would have not been placed in silver..... I know there are champions or roles where I am worst. Ok, I do not pretend to win every game...

But men, how can i play games like this? I'm serious, I can't find a solution... How can I play with people that went 0/3 WITHOUT ganks at 6 min mark and still pretending to win? Playing games where you ask people to play safe, to go to dragon, ping them to not chase without wards in their jungle, ping adcs to go back and eventually seeing them killed like stupids cause they wanted to destroy a turret (which they don't destroy)?

What should I do to play a decent game when there are FEW deaths in the first 15 min and players don't feed, go afk, secure objectives?

A little edit about teleport: I always pick teleport with heimerdinger, top or mid. I use it when we spawn to put turrets faster, i use it to put pressure on the lane faster (when im dead or when i recall to buy something or when we're both dead), i use it to help other lanes and try to turn a fight, i use it to push a lane when the enemy is sieging our, i use it to secure objectives, im prone to help the team... I ask to do early dragon or baron and 50% of the time my mates prefer to chase someone or to do nothing in lane, and eventually minutes later the enemy team secure it...I try to play for the team but they're like deaf...

17 Comments

disregardableJan 30, 20152 votes

Heimer game, I don't see much of a difference between you and bot lane. You all died around the same amount, which is way too much. It was actually an even game. I'd say the deciding point was when you got baron and did nothing with it. When you get baron, you need to make sure your team gets objectives. Ping that shit like crazy.

1/6/3 support Alistar. Pretty bad, but there wasn't much you could do about this one. Jinx AFKing had nothing to do with it. She was back before they started to snowball too hard. It was just that no one did well, and you lost every teamfight.

15/13 Heimer. Still dying too much. Unlike your description says, you went even until you got aced at 28. You killed panth over Jinx. The team actually win two more teamfights, reducing that gold lead the enemy team had, but then you got picked off twice. While you were dead, they sieged your inhib tower and killed your team. It was basically over at that point, but by some miracle you got baron and won a teamfight. Instead of being intelligent and trying to end, you got dragon instead. GG.

2/8/4 Panth jg. Do you see how you always die too much? You said that Fiora was getting fed, and...you camped bot? What? "O, I'm just let a snowballing assassin snowball until she comes to me fed and kills me". Loss deserved.. -_- Bot was fine.

Seriously, you played badly every game. Stop blaming your teammates.

Elendil DagorladJan 30, 20151 votes

Don't take it personal im trying to improve myself, I said it in the first post, so there's no need of sentences like "Seriously, you played badly every game. Stop blaming your teammates.", it's really KITSCH...if you have to say those things, just stop replying and move away, I don't need this and you don't need to lose your time.

Going back to the rest of the answer, I don't understand your point man: you're always talking about end scores. For sure we got a lot of kills if we're losing...How can you be 15 3 14 if they're stronger then you all?

Heimer game, I don't see much of a difference between you and bot lane. You all died around the same amount, which is way too much. It was actually an even game. I'd say the deciding point was when you got baron and did nothing with it. When you get baron, you need to make sure your team gets objectives. Ping that shit like crazy.

(you are talking about different games, you inverted in some way 2 with 4). Again, we died the same amount at the end of the game, and when you lose a game, it's hard to be 15/2. As I said, I was ~9/2/x at minute 30, outfarmed and destroyed lux. I didn't mention bot lane, I mentioned top.

1/6/3 support Alistar. Pretty bad, but there wasn't much you could do about this one. Jinx AFKing had nothing to do with it. She was back before they started to snowball too hard. It was just that no one did well, and you lost every teamfight.

People try to go ahead by 20 cs to win a lane. Saying that jinx afk for that time has nothing to do with the loss is fantasy. Guess what, they started snowbolling right after she backed, when they're ahead and destroyed turrets cause we're outnumbered.

15/13 Heimer. Still dying too much. Unlike your description says, you went even until you got aced at 28. You killed panth over Jinx. The team actually win two more teamfights, reducing that gold lead the enemy team had, but then you got picked off twice. While you were dead, they sieged your inhib tower and killed your team. It was basically over at that point, but by some miracle you got baron and won a teamfight. Instead of being intelligent and trying to end, you got dragon instead. GG.

(you are talking about different games, you inverted in some way 2 with 4) We all died the same amount of time at the end of the game, like i said before. Early, at minute 20, I had 4 kills, zed 5 (1 of which was kamikaze lee). Our morgana had 3 kills, our tristana had 1 kill, their Jinx had 8 kills. You just can't say theres not a difference in mid and bottom.

2/8/4 Panth jg. Do you see how you always die too much? You said that Fiora was getting fed, and...you camped bot? What? "O, I'm just let a snowballing assassin snowball until she comes to me fed and kills me". Loss deserved.. -_- Bot was fine.

Again, we have lost game: you can't pretend we're not dying, it's a lost game...win=few deaths I underline that Jax was 0 3 at 6 mark...when game started, I roamed my blue jungle side > red buff and recalled (jax already dead 1 time). I thought: ok, he will not die another time, let's go bottom cause they're really low and they asked for help. While I was going bottom, he died another time. do i have to lose other time going all the way top from bottom? no, I thought better secure a kill and help bottom (still low) then Ill go top... I secured a kill, I recalled to go top and jax died the third time before i had the time to arrive there. I may be wrong to go bottom when they ask for help and pretending jax will not die again 1 minute after his first death, but be honest man, going 0 3 at 6 min is just feeding. stop. After that, we ALL died too much, but again, they're fed

disregardableJan 30, 20152 votes

You know, I can't convince you that you're the cause of your losses in almost all of your games/teach you how to win more games. But my favorite league youtuber can. They're all like 5 minutes and enjoyable to listen to. The first 3 are older (and lesser quality), but they are very important. The other 2 are very recent and also important. If you watch all 5 of these videos seriously, I highly doubt you will feel the same way you do in this post. At minimum, watch the first or fourth one.

"Why you're stuck in Elo Hell" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MTO2a7ZFcc&list=PLw4un9DpP5lT5WE6KOEtslecCXfjCrRph&index=28

"How to take responsibility" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYR50m1iKUA&index=31&list=PLw4un9DpP5lT5WE6KOEtslecCXfjCrRph

"Why your deaths are bad" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4cTEpSzZcM&index=35&list=PLw4un9DpP5lT5WE6KOEtslecCXfjCrRph

"Climbing the League Ranked Ladder" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wcep3XfHi8k

"Improving at League of Legends" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlD7ph041e8

Elendil DagorladJan 30, 20151 votes

I looked the first 4 videos. That's totally different, saying you can do more instead of saying you played bad in every game.

Provided that in every game I lost I never fed in early (while someone had), what should I've done to be better? Take into account my 2 games with heimer: he's a squishy champ with no escapes, I have 2 possibility: joining team fighting and helping the losing lane / stay back and don't take a lot of part in tf. If they're losing, I HAVE to help them, as you stated before. If enemy team is good, they target me = I can secure some kills but I am also dead. If I told you to target jinx in tf but I am the only one effectively targeting her, or she's just to fed that she's still alive and I am dead before I can't even touch her, there's no possibility for me. It's a 5vs5, I know it's everyone fault, me too, it's ok. I still can't understand what should I do differently.

Here's a link:

I am not taking into account top laners and junglers. Mid was even, bottom was crushed by the diamond ones. Do you think katarina would have won the game if the bottom winning side was the bronze one? I am not so sure... In a setting like this, when a lane fed and you have the other 2 lanes even, I don't know what I have to do. If enemy team is good, they start to roam, ending in a jungler camping your lane or going outnumbered in a fight anyway.

I understand your philosophy "it's always your fault", and in a 5vs5 it's always everyone's fault. That's still not all the story

AMYS GRAVEFeb 5, 20151 votes

In otherwise good videos i have to point out a few things.

in "Why you're stuck in Elo Hell"

This perpetuates a common oversimplification of statistics. There is a 4/9 chance a troll is on your team and a 5/9 chance it is on the enemies, but over a lot of games there will be a variance of this ratio for an individual player. This is why elo hell exists for some people. You really can have more trolls/afks on your teams than the enemies and the number of games everyone has to play to ensure that no one in the community has this can be astonishing.

Lets say you have 100 games with trolls in them. The odds that you have 51 on your team and 49 on the other are,

100 choose 49 * 4/9 ^ 51 * 5/9 ^ 49 = 3.3%

then you can add 52/48,

100 choose 48 * 4/9 ^ 52 * 5/9 ^ 48 = 2.5%

and so on and so on. It comes out at ~11 % of people fall into this. With 27 million players daily that is nearly 3 million players. That's what elo hell is, a statistical fluctuation, and it is very real.

somewhere out there is one poor bastard on a streak with 21 straight games that have that troll on his team, and none on the other team. try telling that guy elo hell doesn't exist.

in "Climbing the League Ranked Ladder"

"even if you do get [trolls and afks] in a few games you can always carry ourself out of your rating if you play an extended series of games. "

ahh the gamblers fallacy.

disregardableFeb 5, 20151 votes

We do need to recognize of course that whether you get a troll (or someone that performs extremely on your team) isn't decided completely by random chance, and it is being actively counteracted by a system that attempts to give a 50% win rate. So in the extremely rare case you do get an extended series of games that have trolls in them, your MMR will be reduced below your skill level until you can easily win, bounce back, and possibly exceed your old rating.

Maybe Elo Hell can exist for 10 games, but it isn't going to exist for 100.

AMYS GRAVEFeb 5, 20151 votes

Is having a troll/afk on your team random chance? I think it's pretty random. The matchmaking system doesn't know if a player is a troll it only knows MMR so it has no basis to put them on the other team as opposed to your team.

Saying that a loss opens you up for a possible win in the future because it lowers your MMR below your "True MMR" sounds like the broken window fallacy. You've lost a game and now you have to invest your resources to play another game and win. That's two games played to get nowhere and your time investment is very real. You still have overall lost something.

disregardableFeb 6, 20151 votes

I have played around 200 games in Bronze 4-5, the so-called epitome of elo hell. In that time, I've had 3 genuine trolls/intentional feeders. I've had tons of people of course that went with off meta picks and got crushed (been there) and even more that just had horrendous 1/10/1 games (been there too...), but the chances of how often your teammates do badly (or leave, really) is counted for by the system. Genuine trolls/intentional AFKs are not random chance and are not common.

All of a person's possible reasons for intentionally feeding or leaving the game are irrational but not impossible to mitigate. In my experience, if you try to create genuine opportunities for that person to feel accomplished in the game (most easily accomplished by just having underfed opponents/be winning the game) and feel like they can be a valuable member of the team, they'll stop. Then you don't have a genuine troll anymore.

Elendil DagorladFeb 6, 20151 votes

Look at my match history again (ranked only) from top to bottom:

CHO GAT: minute 8, we already were 2 / 8. DAMN FEDERS
CAITLIN: (I just want to make a point: i never play adc and I was last pick, hence I am bad, but even when I do, I try just to hold the lane and let teammates do their own job, provided they chose their lanes) I outfarmed graves early but tresh died SIX times in the first 15 minutes, with me pinging him every damn second to back......and stole an easy kill on jarvan
JARVAN: 12 min mark, I was 3 - 1 with an overal score of 4 - 9..........
DARIUS: this game does not even deserve a comment
SHACO: me and nasus got connection problems, lag and disconnections
KAYLE: trolled by a "support" Vi

For example, in the kayle game I didn't play that well. In every other game I could have played better. You are never perfect. But for the love of god, how the hell I always have such feeders in team, I can't realize it. And don't say it happens to both teams, cause my match history is the proof this isn't happening

AMYS GRAVEFeb 6, 20151 votes

I have played around 200 games in Bronze 4-5, the so-called epitome of elo hell. In that time, I've had 3 genuine trolls/intentional feeders

It's great that you didn't have that experience, but the existence of people who never had trolls/afks does not negate the existence of those who have.

There are certainly people who just make a bad pick or have bad games, we have all been there and the system does sort those out fairly well.

Genuine trolls/intentional AFKs are not random chance ...

Defend that statement. I don't see any way the MMR system knows if a person is a troll or not. There is no way that there is an input in the system that says "this guy is a troll, better put him on 'the other' team". As far as i can tell they are completely random.

... and are not common.

Your idea that they are uncommon is your perception on the matter. Different people have different levels of experience with trolls, and again it's great for you that you haven't had to deal with them, but many people have higher troll rates than you. Saying that it can't happen that they have more trolls on their team than the opposing team or that trolls are uncommon is short-sighted and dismissive of their experiences because it's basically saying "i haven't seen these things and if you say you have then you must be lying (to me or to yourself)". In approximately 500 games i have easily seen 50 trolls/feeders/afks who could not be reasoned with, and i have no reason to believe i am not average in this regard. Some of those games are won regardless but a majority of the time they are not.

In my experience, ...

I thought you said you've only had 3 genuine trolls/intentional feeders on your team? No offence but i don't take that as having a lot of experience on the matter. If you were able to create opportunities that your team could capitalize on, and their game turned around as a result, great, but that's less trolling and more them having a game where without your intervention they didn't have the opportunities they needed.

This does bring up a good area of improvement for most people, and that is recognizing when a teammate is irreparably trolling or when they just genuinely need help. They might go 0-4 in lane but one roam/gank could put the enemy on their heels and make them less likely to all in your teammate. With that advantage they can start to win lane in various ways.

disregardableFeb 6, 20151 votes

You seem to have the same problem as the person below, calling someone a troll when they're not. A short response to your giant amount of text, but that's all that needs to be said.

Elendil DagorladFeb 6, 20152 votes

how to bypass the topic...

AMYS GRAVEFeb 6, 20151 votes

Ignoring the fact that i straight up said ...

This does bring up a good area of improvement for most people, and that is recognizing when a teammate is irreparably trolling or when they just genuinely need help. They might go 0-4 in lane but one roam/gank could put the enemy on their heels and make them less likely to all in your teammate. With that advantage they can start to win lane in various ways.

is bypassing all the points that i have brought up, and is rather dismissive of the very real problems.

Paper1Jan 31, 20151 votes

May I suggest if you want to improve yourself you try recording your own games and replaying them? It's very easy to blame the team and not realise there are things you could do better. these things can't really be found through match history, so the only thing that anyone can comment on here is talking about the numbers, but I don't think that's going to be helpful for you.

I will point out some stuff I noticed when reading some of the match history. In one of the heimer games, you had 177 cs after 42 minutes. That's low. it may have been a high kill game, but that's no excuse to farm poorly. In the Alastair game, you built into aegis against an AD composition. Instead, you should build randuins against the burst of graves and alkali, as well as interrupting master yI.

Also, try not to get into the mindset of "I must always pick teleport every game" or "I must always follow this build path". You should be adapting to what the opponent is showing, so for instance if their team has a lot of sustain e.g fiddle, swain, Mundo to name a few, then you might want to take ignite instead of teleport on heimer.

Elendil DagorladJan 31, 20151 votes

I know there are things that I have to improve. First thing I said in my post is that I m silver 4, hence I suck :D I just don't know what do do more then not losing my lane, when other lanes are losing. thank you, I'll try to record myself

Paper1Jan 31, 20151 votes

No problem. Also, if you find that it is difficult to find the mistakes, then search "lastshadow9" on YouTube. He was the coach for super hot crew last season. The newer videos show him giving advice to players during the game and the older ones show him doing post game analysis.

Elendil DagorladFeb 5, 20151 votes

I have another pearl:

I'm bad, I am really bad, I can't carry the team, I suck, I have to improve...

But how the hell can you go 0 6 in RANKED in the first 8 MINUTES? I can't figure that out