Items should be guaranteed.

hoganftw·Jul 15, 2019·33 votes·10,764 views

With how gamebreaking items can be, it makes no sense why their droprates should be randomized. Neutral rounds should definitely reward the same amount of items for everyone like in Underlords.

34 Comments

ChaosReynJul 15, 20192 votes

This is being updated and added into the upcoming TFT patch.

Hop off the bandwagon, you're late.

hoganftwJul 15, 201913 votes

{quoted}

This is being updated and added into the upcoming TFT patch.

Hop off the bandwagon, you're late.

Except from what I've seen, they haven't. Sometimes you get rewarded with XP, which is nice but not an item.

rabbitfufuJul 15, 201916 votes

you can also sometimes be rewarded with a single coin. no joke a single coin when someone might get 1 or 2 items. ya kiddin me?

ChaosReynJul 15, 20191 votes

"Riot, give me exactly what I want, every game, or fuck this gamemode!"

Cry more plz. Seriously.

Additional exp gets you to late game faster, and is a perfectly good reward. To the credit of Rabbit, an item is worth at least 4 gold...so if you're going to not get items, and not get exp, it needs to give you 4 gold. 4 gold is either additional exp, or it's additional rolls and income to get where you want to go. Both of which are on par with items. The gold, I admit, should give more if you're not getting any items.

But the rest of this argument is straight entitlement.

hoganftwJul 15, 20194 votes

{quoted}

"Riot, give me exactly what I want, every game, or fuck this gamemode!"

Cry more plz. Seriously.

Additional exp gets you to late game faster, and is a perfectly good reward. To the credit of Rabbit, an item is worth at least 4 gold...so if you're going to not get items, and not get exp, it needs to give you 4 gold. 4 gold is either additional exp, or it's additional rolls and income to get where you want to go. Both of which are on par with items. The gold, I admit, should give more if you're not getting any items.

But the rest of this argument is straight entitlement.

Exp and gold really aren't even comparable to items. Items allow you to build around specific champs that can carry games. It's a very common and for a good reason. A fully stacked 2 star champion pretty much outshines the benefits of getting the 3 star in most cases. You can always get more gold which in turn can buy xp. You can't find items outside of carousels and neutral rounds.

Panthaz89Jul 15, 20194 votes

{quoted}

"Riot, give me exactly what I want, every game, or fuck this gamemode!"

Cry more plz. Seriously.

Additional exp gets you to late game faster, and is a perfectly good reward. To the credit of Rabbit, an item is worth at least 4 gold...so if you're going to not get items, and not get exp, it needs to give you 4 gold. 4 gold is either additional exp, or it's additional rolls and income to get where you want to go. Both of which are on par with items. The gold, I admit, should give more if you're not getting any items.

But the rest of this argument is straight entitlement.

Items are worth way more than 4 gold....people would be buying every item possible the second they hit 50 even if it was a random item. gold and XP are at a 1 to 1 ratio in this game so getting XP in a box literally limits your options because you have no chance to save that gold for interest instead its just used on XP which can also be pretty bad late in the game from 8 to 9 when you have no chance of leveling before the game ends some times.

Z3SIeeperJul 15, 20196 votes

Yeah ikr so entitled. Imagine a poker player crying because some players randomly got dealt 1-2 cards while he got 0. Stop being entitled and just play with what you're given or not given.

ChaosReynJul 16, 20191 votes

Imagine having to completely negate the fundamental rules of poker (that you get cards to play with) to try and talk about the RNG within the game (the value of the cards) as if that RNG has no impact on the decision making (playing, folding, going all-in) or the strategy as a whole.

Yes: Stop being entitled - sometimes you get the King/7 offsuit, and sometimes you get the Full House. And that's the most extreme way of looking at it, as in TFT, you can make up for item RNG with unit RNG. If they take out the EXP part and change the gold from boxes to a solid 4 (which means you can buy the exp if you want it, and streamlines things better), it enables you to better play the unit RNG, which means they can better cancel each other. Other than that, yes, it's complete entitlement.

Z3SIeeperJul 16, 20195 votes

The equivalent of that analogy for TFT:

Sometimes you get the double Recurves, sometimes you get the MR and Armor.

Except that's not the case. It's:

Sometimes you get the quadruple Recurves, double Rods and a BF sword and sometimes you get jack shit.

"You can make up for it with unit RNG"

No you fucking can't. A proper poker analogy again:

"You got dealt 0 cards while everyone else got dealt 1-2 cards, but you can totally make up for it with the community card RNG"

Guess what? You can't. Everyone else will have cards that synergize with the community cards, just like everyone else will get items that synergize with the community units they got.

Can you still win in this fucked up game of poker? Sure. Are your chances way fucking lower if you get dealt only 1 card? Duh. And that's the problem.

/thread

ChaosReynJul 16, 20191 votes

That's why you won't win by anything but the luck you despise.

You have no sense of tact.

Good day, sir.

Z3SIeeperJul 16, 20193 votes

Error 404 counterargument not found, closing thread. /thread

Edit:

{quoted}

You have no sense of tact.

{quoted}

Cry more plz. Seriously.

Nice tact bro.

ChaosReynJul 16, 20191 votes

I already mentioned it: you cannot remove the actual rules of poker and still call it poker. Your analogy is shit, and you're more hellbent on cursing RNG that you are tuned into the fact that the RNG of each aspect of this game is set up to loosely counter other aspects of RNG. Adapting and playing with what you have is part of the game.

There's 0 point in having the same repetitive argument with a cuck too determined not to listen.

BlownHeadGasketJul 17, 20191 votes

That's BS people play league because its an addicting skill based game. If a mothatrucka wants a luck based game then you go to a casino. This BS gamemode is complete luck, so wtf you talking about entitled? They make the main game fair for all why not TFT?

Z3SIeeperJul 17, 20191 votes

Here you can find the definition of "/s", it'll help you escape future r/woosh's

BreganJul 15, 20199 votes

incorrect. they are guaranteeing at least one mystery box, which might only contain gold/exp. meanwhile, other players can still get MORE mystery boxes than you. the very valid point of the thread was to normalize item COUNT across all players. obviously the rng of WHAT item you get is fine, but COUNT should remain consistent, even if the count is different between matches.

ChaosReynJul 15, 20191 votes

Ok...either the count is consistent, or the count is different between matches. You literally contradicted yourself.

Logically: 4 exp is a free tick on your level chart - you reach mid/late game faster. It's got worth. Gold needs to be given as +4 from an item box, as it should be the option of either +1 tick on your level chart, or more income to generate your strat. It holds worth, and they need to make sure it holds enough worth. I give people that.

The rest of this is asinine: after they cave again, and normalize everything, the next comment is going to be "REEE I NEVER GET SPEAR OF SHOJIN!" and on that regard, I don't know how, cause people throw around way too many fucking tears over this shit.

ZaloogJul 15, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Ok...either the count is consistent, or the count is different between matches. You literally contradicted yourself.

Logically: 4 exp is a free tick on your level chart - you reach mid/late game faster. It's got worth. Gold needs to be given as +4 from an item box, as it should be the option of either +1 tick on your level chart, or more income to generate your strat. It holds worth, and they need to make sure it holds enough worth. I give people that.

The rest of this is asinine: after they cave again, and normalize everything, the next comment is going to be "REEE I NEVER GET SPEAR OF SHOJIN!" and on that regard, I don't know how, cause people throw around way too many fucking tears over this shit.

Except leveling faster in the early game is the worst thing you can do in this game. Since unit quality is far more important then unit quantity in this game. When your forced to level up early in this game it reduces your chances of finding level 1 units your looking for to level up. Xp drops are terrible late game because it's meaninglessness. Since your either already hoarding enough gold where gaining 4 gold is meaningless, or you've used the vast majority of your gold rerolling to find upgrades. In the case where your finding upgrades 4 xp isn't gonna move the experience bar in any meaningful way from level 7-8 or 8-9

BreganJul 16, 20191 votes

no. i didnt contradict myself. i said the count has to be the same for every player in a game/match. when you queue up for a new game/match, maybe the amount of items in that one will be different than the previous, but every player still needs to get the same count. its not a hard concept.

maybe in one match everyone gets 2 items from minions, 1 from krugs, and 3 from wolves. maybe in another match everyone gets 3 from minions, 2 from krugs, and 2 from wolves. having that variance between matches is fine, but within a match everyone needs to get the SAME count. its not a contradiction, its an easy concept that fully fixes the issue.

yes, there is something to be said for the value of gold and exp, but there are also arguments that exp can mess up your card draw strategy and what little agency you DO have over the probability. additionally, theres really no contest between getting an item or getting one of those. allowing some people to have more items than others does not alleviate the frustration or help with the balance. sure, it feels bad to get nothing but negatron cloaks while some guy gets perfect item pairs for his chosen comp, but thats rng, and unlikely to work so perfectly/imperfectly the next round. at least we faced the SAME rng.

GauleiterJul 16, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Ok...either the count is consistent, or the count is different between matches. You literally contradicted yourself.

Logically: 4 exp is a free tick on your level chart - you reach mid/late game faster. It's got worth. Gold needs to be given as +4 from an item box, as it should be the option of either +1 tick on your level chart, or more income to generate your strat. It holds worth, and they need to make sure it holds enough worth. I give people that.

The rest of this is asinine: after they cave again, and normalize everything, the next comment is going to be "REEE I NEVER GET SPEAR OF SHOJIN!" and on that regard, I don't know how, cause people throw around way too many fucking tears over this shit.

Well you didnt get his point tho. So please listen up kid. He meant it like this. The standard item count every player every round gets should be the same in the same GAME! But they can code it like that:

For example:

Game

1 for the first round. 1 for the second round. 2 for the third round. that makes 4 in generall and that should be the same for every player.

Game

1 for the first round. 1 for the second round. 3 for the third round. that makes 5 in generall and that should be the same for every player.

Game

2 for the first round. 1 for the second round. 3 for the third round. that makes 6 in generall and that should be the same for every player.

So you have a constant flow of change an varierty but no bad rng experience for the players.

Same goes on for crugs and chickens and other minion waves like dragon and rift herald/elder dragon. etc. There should be a fixed number of items every player gets after that round.

ChaosReynJul 16, 20191 votes

Nice numbering. Come at me with that elitist "listen kid" bullshit, and cant even work a fucking computer. xD

I got his point. My point is to say this is the definition of entitlement. I agree - each camp should give at least one item. You passed the camp, you earn an item. This is right.

If someone else got 2 or 3, then they're lucky. Ok. That's fine. But you're playing the wrong game if your entire composition revolves 100% around getting as many items as possible. If you can't build your champions without items, then you're not going to last long enough into the game for them to be important anyway, and good freaking riddance that you dropped out early.

If we ran it the way this guy wants, there'd be no challenge - you'd always get pretty much whatever you wanted, and people would still bitch about RNG because "I didn't get a tear for my shojin off that last drop, but that guy has fucking 4 of them REEEE Riot made bad gamemode! 4 items but not the one I needed!" It'd punish the people who know how to play, and it'd make the game less about strategy and more about the RNG of who got the better champions/items, because at that point, there's no room for either to balance the other out.

hoganftwJul 16, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Nice numbering. Come at me with that elitist "listen kid" bullshit, and cant even work a fucking computer. xD

I got his point. My point is to say this is the definition of entitlement. I agree - each camp should give at least one item. You passed the camp, you earn an item. This is right.

If someone else got 2 or 3, then they're lucky. Ok. That's fine. But you're playing the wrong game if your entire composition revolves 100% around getting as many items as possible. If you can't build your champions without items, then you're not going to last long enough into the game for them to be important anyway, and good freaking riddance that you dropped out early.

If we ran it the way this guy wants, there'd be no challenge - you'd always get pretty much whatever you wanted, and people would still bitch about RNG because "I didn't get a tear for my shojin off that last drop, but that guy has fucking 4 of them REEEE Riot made bad gamemode! 4 items but not the one I needed!" It'd punish the people who know how to play, and it'd make the game less about strategy and more about the RNG of who got the better champions/items, because at that point, there's no room for either to balance the other out.

No you wouldn't get all that you wanted if you standardized items. I play Underlords too and even with guaranteed item drops it doesn't take the luck out of the game. It just punishes players who didn't get anything less. It doesn't punish people who know how to play either, it just makes the game feel more fair, even if it doesn't guarantee that the game will be fair due to what items actually drop. I'm not saying that everyone gets the same items, but it makes sense that everyone has the similar item count, with those failing neutral camps probably receiving less. And given that there are item disparities, with some being leaps and bounds better than others, it still rewards lucky players but keeps it so that they don't just run away with the game from the get-go. At the very least, it allows unlucky players to have a chance to make the one or two items that they need to hopefully get back into the game.

Making the game more "fair" isn't ruining the game. It doesn't take away from the strategic elements either as it doesn't remove RNG of which champions/items you get stuck with, what strats you use, whether you save for interest or hyper roll, or your positioning abilities. Just like in Underlords where items drops are guaranteed, the skill factor would definitely still there and that 9/10 times the better players will make top 4 regardless of how hard RNG screws them over.

In short, unlucky players get punished far less, lucky players get rewarded slightly less, and still keeping all the elements of skill involved.

DUDE BROJul 15, 20193 votes

{quoted}

This is being updated and added into the upcoming TFT patch.

Hop off the bandwagon, you're late.

Nope. I would get 1 gold from the monsters, then I look over and see someone with 3 items on their bench.

Nothing has changed.

ChaosReynJul 16, 20191 votes

the EXP should be taken out, and you should get 4 gold from item boxes every time, to enable the decision making for how you want to challenge people who got items (since 4 gold gives you the EXP anyway, it's just streamlined better that way). I will give you that much.

But the bandwagon itself is still horse shit. At least you have a valid feelsbad moment.

GrandNagusQuarkJul 15, 20192 votes

xp and gold suck compared to items. Would you ever give up an item for a few xp or gold? I don't think so.

Guaranteed item is the way to go. Makes things a bit more fair. Dota Underlords does it right (never played DAC so dont know what its like there): Guaranteed item, choose from 3 if you win the round, still get an item that you can't choose if you lose the round.

SukishooJul 16, 20191 votes

Xp drops are quite useful actually, you can get higher level and have more units than other people by the time pvp starts. I've tested that and it can help just as much as an item, if not more.

ToadwartJul 16, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Xp drops are quite useful actually, you can get higher level and have more units than other people by the time pvp starts. I've tested that and it can help just as much as an item, if not more.

You are extremely mistaken. Bonus xp pushes you out of the lower tiers lowering the chances for you to see the heroes you are looking for before you are ready to move to the upper tiers. In addition, you can always spend gold to buy xp...you cannot ever spend gold to buy items.

There needs to be an even number of random items given to every player. Given how powerful items are, there will never be any other alternative.

SukishooJul 16, 20191 votes

Yes it can lower chances on lower tiers but it's still not exactly a bad thing. As I said, I've tested the changes on the PBE and it's really just a different way of playing. You just have to learn to use what your given and find an advantage.

ToadwartJul 17, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Yes it can lower chances on lower tiers but it's still not exactly a bad thing. As I said, I've tested the changes on the PBE and it's really just a different way of playing. You just have to learn to use what your given and find an advantage.

What advantage are you given when your mystery box gives you 1 gold and other people got an item?

Stop white-knighting and look at the facts.

SukishooJul 17, 20191 votes

Gold isn't what I was talking about. You get direct XP drops, Gold drops or Item drops.. You can auto level if you get XP drops; as you don't spend a thing. Then you still have gold to spend elsewhere. Learn to read. I've played it and it works great.

EggochiggoJul 16, 20192 votes

Items have to be fixed or ranked legit means nothing, at the highest level of play guys having 1 more item than their competition could cost them the game. I don't necessarily think It's a problem getting 4 items in the first pve rounds vs 1 since team comps and cards can 100% outplay items in the early levels.

Although by the time you get around to the first dragon everyone should have exactly the same amount of items so as you complete the next few stages and pve rounds the items should be balanced out based on who in the game has the most items. There are plenty of games where guys have 2 or even 3 more completed items at levels 8/9 and that just can't happen as it's nearly impossible to outplay that type of rng.

Guys can complain about what items they are getting as people think SoJ and RFC are too OP, but I think as they balance the defensive/less powerful items this shouldn't be as big of an issue plus you can build your team comp around the items you have late game. (example you aren't going to build a sorc comp if you have a bunch of bows and swords).

KokudilandauJul 15, 20191 votes

Yeah, I've noticed on the PBE it seems to drop each time from monsters, something that was needed. Dragon kill nothing drops feels bad

Devilreaper XIIIJul 15, 20191 votes

shared draft should become an item shop, where players can sell and buy items to a limit, where all players are capable of getting a fixed number of items. the start of the game shouldn't be a rotation of champions either, since the champion you want can be on the other side right in front of an opponent with a good item attached to it, i once saw a tristana with rfc O____O.... too much random, instead let the player choose a class and give the player a random champion from that class with a related item to that class.

ZtokaJul 15, 20191 votes

Yes, items should have the drop rate balanced.. Save the type or item for rng.. But at least folks would still get the same amount of things to stay relative. Last night, opening round after creeps, I faced someone who had a lvl 2 Vayne w item 3124 and iirc item 3046 and their 2 star Warwick had a full tank item built.. They had another 1-2 item parts in their inventory... I had my 1/2 item from carousel.. haha

PBE (while i haven't gotten to try it) had a good idea to guarantee item drops but then going to the may drop xp or gold.. I don't want effin xp or a gold or two.. That won't help me keep up w/ the person rng gave everything to.

ShadWoooJul 15, 20191 votes

I was thinking that amount of items is not such a big deal as I could outplay other players. But now after some time everyone is building strongest items and using them on proper units and it is not possible at all.

Just lost second game today where I got no item from first 3 minion waves and only 1 item from golems (and in the previous game I didn't get nothing from golems either). Fighting guy with 4 fully completed items, another one with 3, others with 2 and half. And I was sitting on chain vest from initial carousel and BF from second carousel. I lost to everyone and mostly by a stomp. I didn't have that bad champs, t2 nobles (2 vaynes) + t1 lulu, it is not like other players had level 2 Draven or several level3 champions, I simply lost due to item discrepacy.

And that really sucks. And no, XP neither gold instead of item will not fix this.