Be honest: Chadshinshin was wrong.

hoganftw·Jan 17, 2019·80 votes·19,923 views

Conquerors was a mistake.

103 Comments

MonstermushmushJan 17, 201944 votes

Wut? He says that conquerer is a mistake. So isn't he right?

chipndip1Jan 17, 201929 votes

{quoted}

Wut? He says that conquerer is a mistake. So isn't he right?

Yeah...right now.

Back when he was complaining about the game needing a "fighter specific keystone that lets fighters beat tanks in lane", no he wasn't.

Hash is the type of guy that will NEVER be satisfied. Even when the game's in the palms of his hands (for some reason), he does nothing but show how much of a baby he is.

Z3SleeperJan 17, 201947 votes

He’s pretty reasonable just taken out of context way too much.

He said they needed something then they got Conq. Then he said Conq is “necessary but bad design” in that Fighters still need something like Conq but until then removing Conq will send Fighters back to the gutter.

He even has said Jax is OP multiple times now.

Idk where your idea of him “crying when the game is in the palm of his hands” comes from, gonna need evidence.

Like, if I said my champion was in the gutter and needed buffs then Riot completely overbuffed the hell out of him would I be wrong for saying they needed buffs in the first place?

TonyTonyMordecaiJan 17, 20192 votes

Good point. It's like how I want enchanters to be able to do their job, but they can't be buffed with damage the way it is or else they'll be too strong (same thing with tanks, there's too much true damage, but if they get buffed because of that presence, then it'll be more buffs for damage if things are said about bruisers/fighters being too weak). Some cases they can do well, but in most other cases they can't do enough fast enough because of how quickly damage gets applied.

Serika ZeroJan 18, 20195 votes

He complains of ever under the sun regarding this game. obviously eventually he will get it right.

If I say it's raining outside every single day. I will. Eventually. Be right. that doesn't mean I'm someone you should trust with balance or meteo.

Fire BlaustoiseJan 18, 20192 votes

Can agree or disagree, but there arguments.

Serika ZeroJan 27, 20192 votes

my argument is that you can't take someone that bitches about everything seriously. the same way you won't take a broken clock seriously. Sure, it shows the right time twice a day, but you don't schedule your time based on what that broken clock says, nor do you pay attention to it, nor do you try to make an argument towards how right it is those 2 times, and how wrong it is those 99+ times.

again, he complain about everything under the sun, there isn't a thing he didn't complain about. EVERYTHING is broken according to him. Everything except the bug where kled's Q cancels Poppy's E, that's fine.

Fire BlaustoiseJan 27, 20191 votes

But when Hashinshin complain about something its not dumb like most of this board like " x is broken. period".

Usualy its more like "this thing is broken cause .... ".

And this topic is about knowing if Hashinshin was right or wrong. He wasnt wrong, he said :

tanks were op : yeah they were (they will be again when conqueror will be nerfed)
bruisers didnt have keystone for them : was true for most (and thats what matter)

He asked riot to nerf tanks and give a keystone designed for bruiser. He was right on this fact... but in the end he dont even work at riot.

Serika ZeroJan 28, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fire Blaustoise,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0AUeWiM7,comment-id=0002000000000003000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-27T23:51:17.480+0000)

But when Hashinshin complain about something its not dumb like most of this board like " x is broken. period".

Usualy its more like "this thing is broken cause .... ".

And this topic is about knowing if Hashinshin was right or wrong. He wasnt wrong, he said :

tanks were op : yeah they were (they will be again when conqueror will be nerfed)

bruisers didnt have keystone for them : was true for most (and thats what matter)

He asked riot to nerf tanks and give a keystone designed for bruiser. He was right on this fact... but in the end he dont even work at riot.

Why are tanks op? Why do bruiser need a keystone? I'm seeing no "because".

What hashinshin does is indeed often add some reasoning for his case HOWEVER he ignores all evidence against his case. Which is why he is wrong most of the time. like that broken clock.

Z3SleeperJan 18, 20193 votes

I used to think that was the case too. Hell I made a comment along the same lines on another post. But after actually watching him a bit I gotta say this just isn't true.

I will say he does make some pretty out there statements but he always ends them off with "obviously not exactly that Twitch chat but you know what I mean, the concept is there" (such as saying nerf all AP by 25%, he meant just nerf mages it was just a spit-ball). That's something that gets thrown out the window a lot on the boards too: people ignoring some poster's concepts simply due to extremely spit-balled placeholder numbers they tossed into their suggestion.

People also like to meme on him cuz he complains a lot and decide that therefore his complaints are invalid. But when you really think about it...

#There's a fucking lot to complain about

Conq too strong, Jax too strong, Essence Reaver too strong, top lane tanks are worthless, Sion still ridiculous, Riven and other champs who "high skill ceiling means balance doesn't apply to me", enchanters are subpar, crit itemization is terrible, Cass is the highest winrate ADC, the thousands of gamebreaking bugs that can break a match, damage is through the roof, armor is useless, perma-ganking junglers with absurd early game presence (ex. Camille), overabundance of slows goddam everywhere, knockups everywhere too invalidating tenacity, CC in general being overpowered because damage is through the roof, Ornn losing tons of defensive power for ridiculous burst potential, late game hypercarries have unreasonably strong early games (Fiora, Irelia, Yasuo, etc.), Akali, Towers made of paper that give more gold now, Glacial Augment is still ridiculous but you probably won't notice until damage goes down, Mages absolutely dominating mid lane, Morello being a standard 2nd item rush invalidating healing champs, Mundo still has the worst design in the game but he got a gross huge buff anyway, Conq combined with DD/HG/RH still heals AoE damage that gets converted as single target damage, the jungle -> lane minion penalty still exists while Riot figures out a better solution, trolls and wintraders not being punished as much as they should or at all in many cases, Juggernauts being balanced exclusively around low elo play, still no real Wukong changes and he's risen back to the number 1 spot in top lane (have fun tho Wukong mains, u deserve it after those gross undeserved nerfs that were entirely because of an unbalanced Duskblade), Pyke, Galio

I think I've made a big enough list to get my point across and that's nowhere near all the current issues.

As for the points in that post from 3 months ago by Get Ogre Here, Kennen was obnoxious and still is, Viktor was abusive to half the top lane roster and the mage thing still stands. I just never heard him actually talk about them and that post out of context made those points sound stupid so I agreed back then. I no longer think the same.

Fire BlaustoiseJan 18, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Yeah...right now.

Back when he was complaining about the game needing a "fighter specific keystone that lets fighters beat tanks in lane", no he wasn't.

He never said this. He said something like "bruisers have no keystone". He was right, everything was designed for other classes but bruiser. Tanks were an issue, and will be again when conqueror will be nerfed, cause riot were to lazy to fix them at the time.

chipndip1Jan 18, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fire Blaustoise,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0AUeWiM7,comment-id=000200000001,timestamp=2019-01-18T15:40:34.762+0000)

He never said this. He said something like "bruisers have no keystone". He was right, everything was designed for other classes but bruiser.

Aftershock was altered to be worse on tanks and better on fighters.

Press the Attack still exists.

Grasp still exists.

Electrocute was set up for the Lee Sins out there.

"Nah we have nothing that fighters want".

SuffocateMeDaddyJan 18, 20192 votes

But fighters needed a keystone to help them beat tanks? Like conqueror is shit design but Id take shit design on rune than shit design forcing me to play tanks.

Zero Skill TankJan 18, 20192 votes

Right because it's better to have meta when you can play both tanks and damage dealers then a meta when you can only pick damage dealers.

SuffocateMeDaddyJan 18, 20191 votes

Ask top lane mains what damage dealers they played before conqueror.

Zero Skill TankJan 18, 20192 votes

There are 4 other positions, 2 of which are exclusively played by damage dealers, and two that have a mix.

Moreover, damage dealers on top were never unviable or even bad, it just weren't damage dealers that Hashinshin and his flock like.

AsudJan 18, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Yeah...right now.

Back when he was complaining about the game needing a "fighter specific keystone that lets fighters beat tanks in lane", no he wasn't.

Hash is the type of guy that will NEVER be satisfied. Even when the game's in the palms of his hands (for some reason), he does nothing but show how much of a baby he is.

Right now?
Fighters are supposed to beat tanks in lane. Its just conqueror was dumb solution. Because that true damage fucks up everyone else more than tanks. If 2 players of equal skill play top, one is bruiser and one is tank, Tank should ALWAYS lose to bruiser of equal skill. In the lane. Because he provides more in teamfights.

MankeyMadnessJan 27, 20191 votes

Durr we want fervor Rito gib AD for fight so I win harder!!!

Adds 20% armor pen + chunk of AD after 4 seconds: NOT LIKE THIS conqueror has problems but Reddit and Hash have no one but themselves to blame. All Riot tried to do was make Cleaver Lucian from s5/6 into a keystone. Guess what, it was horrible and overpowered then and its horrible and overpowered now. Riven abused the same thing, and she's abusing Conqueror now.

LauchmelderJan 17, 201928 votes

Hashinshin didn't ask for Conqueror though. He asked for a bruiser keystone and he was right in doing so (as bruisers didn't have a single viable keystone going for them).

SaevumJan 18, 20193 votes

Fervor of battle was the hijacked 'keystone' took by some brusiers back in the day.

LauchmelderJan 18, 20192 votes

"Back in the day" after runes reforged Fervor was gone

hoganftwJan 17, 201921 votes

He protested for his bruiser rune and Riot delivered. Jax, his boy, quickly became a highly contested and powerful pick.

SasogwaJan 17, 201913 votes

{quoted}

He protested for his bruiser rune and Riot delivered. Jax, his boy, quickly became a highly contested and powerful pick.

Bring back fervour

Also fucking essence flare/placeholder name is bullshit and should be removed from the game

GayFluffyUnicornJan 17, 20192 votes

And then? What does fervor do if you don't hurt tanks?

Like you guys keep talking for weeks on end about conq and bruisers despite you guys having zero clue what you talk about.

Because shockingly you don't play toplane or even bruisers to begin with.

If conq is removed bruisers go straight back to trash tier. Oh wait THE GOOD BRUISERS AREN'T EVEN CONQ USERS TO BEGIN WITH. It just lets kled, renek and similar champs stay relevant past 10 minutes and let them deal with tanks AS IT IS INTENTED. Irelia is broken because it's irelia and it's hilarious to me conq is now scapegoated for her being strong despite electrocute especially midlane being her best keystone for quite some time. But nono conq is the problem with the game obviously. Tanks cannot walk toplane and rightclick bruisers to death anymore, the horror. Let's remove 50 champs from the game so mao, cho, poppy can be mindlessly spammed again and autowin everything ever. That's the league we want zero interaction, zero mechanics, zero skill. Farm up and hope your botlane carries and this is where most of the conq circlejerk actually comes from. Armless ADC mains that cannot fathom they aren'T super broken anymore and that the problem with adcs is the current GAME ITSELF AND THEIR OWN LACK OF SKILL. Just look at the top ladder of korea how many adc mains you find and yes they do not play crit carries that has a reason and the reason is not conq. Too fast, too snowbally, way too much impact by the jungler especially combined with a competent midlaner.Hilariously oppressive supports but we rather close our eyes and pretend nothing happens when alistar, rakan destroy adcs in the lane. But somehow they cling to this illusion that if we just make tanks happen in toplane again ADCs will be all powerful again.

Like do you guys even realize even with fervor bruisers weren't doing too hot toplane? And it was all maokai, nauti for months? And eventually poppy.

The old rune tree atleast gave 7% armor pen on top of fervor combined with black cleaver it was SOMETHING. But that was even before bramble garbage, adaptive helmet and shit that remove bruisers from the game.

Without conq an ADC with GA and tabis is basically unkillable. Same with fuckin mages who somehow got to get massive pen while being able to go tabis, seeker, not sacrifice any AP or CDR or anything AND ALSO GET HIGH HEALTH STATS ON TWO MAJOR ITEMS if they choose to.

Anchorit WracajJan 17, 20192 votes

{quoted}

And then? What does fervor do if you don't hurt tanks?

Like you guys keep talking for weeks on end about conq and bruisers despite you guys having zero clue what you talk about.

Because shockingly you don't play toplane or even bruisers to begin with.

If conq is removed bruisers go straight back to trash tier. Oh wait THE GOOD BRUISERS AREN'T EVEN CONQ USERS TO BEGIN WITH. It just lets kled, renek and similar champs stay relevant past 10 minutes and let them deal with tanks AS IT IS INTENTED. Irelia is broken because it's irelia and it's hilarious to me conq is now scapegoated for her being strong despite electrocute especially midlane being her best keystone for quite some time. But nono conq is the problem with the game obviously. Tanks cannot walk toplane and rightclick bruisers to death anymore, the horror. Let's remove 50 champs from the game so mao, cho, poppy can be mindlessly spammed again and autowin everything ever. That's the league we want zero interaction, zero mechanics, zero skill. Farm up and hope your botlane carries and this is where most of the conq circlejerk actually comes from. Armless ADC mains that cannot fathom they aren'T super broken anymore and that the problem with adcs is the current GAME ITSELF AND THEIR OWN LACK OF SKILL. Just look at the top ladder of korea how many adc mains you find and yes they do not play crit carries that has a reason and the reason is not conq. Too fast, too snowbally, way too much impact by the jungler especially combined with a competent midlaner.Hilariously oppressive supports but we rather close our eyes and pretend nothing happens when alistar, rakan destroy adcs in the lane. But somehow they cling to this illusion that if we just make tanks happen in toplane again ADCs will be all powerful again.

Like do you guys even realize even with fervor bruisers weren't doing too hot toplane? And it was all maokai, nauti for months? And eventually poppy.

The old rune tree atleast gave 7% armor pen on top of fervor combined with black cleaver it was SOMETHING. But that was even before bramble garbage, adaptive helmet and shit that remove bruisers from the game.

Without conq an ADC with GA and tabis is basically unkillable. Same with fuckin mages who somehow got to get massive pen while being able to go tabis, seeker, not sacrifice any AP or CDR or anything AND ALSO GET HIGH HEALTH STATS ON TWO MAJOR ITEMS if they choose to.

Actually Bruisers/Mages/and few assasins are broken. I either as jugerrnaut/bruiser player on top lane don't see reason why to remove Conqueror,make it 10% true damage.Nerf it. ADC sucks cause everyone blown sh11t out of them. And yeah..stop buffing tanks/enchnater with damage..give them propper buffs like uttility/armor/resist/health.

Fire BlaustoiseJan 18, 20192 votes

Actually Bruisers/Mages/and few assasins are broken.

Some bruisers are broken. Unlike mages (on mid) they don't even dominate top, not like a whole.

ADC sucks cause everyone blown sh11t out of them.

Adc dont sucks. Crit adc sucks (and not all of them).

QuáxJan 17, 201913 votes

When is he ever right tho?

KhabithJan 17, 20199 votes

A lot of times, like when he says that there isn't enough itemization, and he's right I mean everyone has like two options max

GotYourUltin321Jan 17, 201911 votes

Would be easier to say when he was right.

Frog goes mooJan 17, 201911 votes

He actually agreed that it was a badly designed rune believe it or not.

Critmaster GarenJan 18, 20198 votes

hashinshin didnt ask for conqueror.

he just asked for a bruiser keystone, because riot doesnt have a single top lane main on their live design team, and straight up forgot to add a keystone for bruisers.

the current version of conqueror was entirely 100% riots idea. by the way, the first iteration of the keystone was just a stacking ad buff. if they had put a cap on it, it would have probably been fine as that.

Linna ExcelJan 18, 20191 votes

because riot doesnt have a single top lane main on their live design team

This feels wrong if only because all the lanes are different from each other.

MorgManBasherJan 17, 20197 votes

Chadshinshin is never wrong.

Anyway, without it the game would of been garbage for a lot of melee champs because they would of had no keystone at all to use. Could they have made a different/better/more healthy keystone? Yes, but having conqueror is definitely better than nothing otherwise you are fucking over every melee carry character.

GayFluffyUnicornJan 17, 20191 votes

They could have also nerfed tanks and their items but noone wanted that.

LTK KoRoJan 17, 20195 votes

Tanks item are pretty shit anyway

ElohavenJan 17, 20191 votes

Game is still garbage for most melee champions. It's only fun for assassins who use electrocute/dark harvest.

Fire BlaustoiseJan 18, 20191 votes

Depend on your elo. The more you climb the less fun it is for most assassins (by assassin i mean laners). Like Zed is judged broken in low elo, but we're closer of trash in high elo (as top and jungle im more likely to dodge if my mid pick zed).

Your issue with Zed in low elo is you dont punish them during lane and low map awarness (like you can't rely on your bot lane to retreat when mid ping SS)

Dark Harvest is trash for most.

ElohavenJan 18, 20191 votes

Zed is weak in Gold...

And I never said anything about him LOL. Let me correct myself damage creep is really bad.

AS I LAY FEEDINGJan 17, 20196 votes

Would be better if they added a fighter rune that did magic dmg rather than physical. But ye conq was a mistake

SeleenaJan 17, 20196 votes

He wanted a rune for bruisers, conquerors wasn't his idea it was riot's. blame the dogshit balance team.

Stróc DúnmharúJan 18, 20194 votes

Conqueror giving extra AD AND True Damage is stupid. It should only give extra damage, like Fervor of Battle did, or the True Damage conversion. Doing both is too much.

King LegoJan 17, 20193 votes

To be honest, Hashinshin can make some points that even Riot agrees and some that can be deemed unfair when it comes to other classes, bias, or just wrong.

However, we are more or less just listening to his view and opinion. Riot will never hire him as a member of the balance team.

Hell, i wouldn't even hire him as my house keeper (or room keeper in my case). Last thing i need is an hour long twitch video of him ranting about my house (again in my case, room).

HammermancerJan 17, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=King Lego,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0AUeWiM7,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2019-01-17T19:08:31.286+0000)

Hell, i wouldn't even hire him as my house keeper (or room keeper in my case). Last thing i need is an hour long twitch video of him ranting about my house (again in my case, room).

Do it for me plz

King LegoJan 17, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Do it for me plz

[sg-ahri-3]

SirchachatJan 18, 20193 votes

Maybe it's riots fault for rushing out a half baked project we have Conqueror.

[slayer-jinx-unamused]

The old mastery system and it's respective keystones was far superior to what we have now.

The entire teamJan 17, 20192 votes

Well he IS the rune’s progenitor, right when it went through the counter strike.

Irelia BotJan 17, 201914 votes

[{quoted}](name=The entire team,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0AUeWiM7,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-01-17T16:15:16.767+0000)

Well he IS the rune’s progenitor, right when it went through the counter strike.

He wanted a rune that would be good on fighters who don't build lots of health. He did not ask for true damage.

The entire teamJan 17, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Irelia Bot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0AUeWiM7,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2019-01-17T18:10:58.289+0000)

He wanted a rune that would be good on fighters who don't build lots of health. He did not ask for true damage.

Guess Ritochips wanted something that could deal with the health stacking Tank meta at the time, and this was what they came up with

RagnaveilJan 17, 20192 votes

Then they changed % armor pen around midseason and it fixed the issue with resist stacking...which was the last thing tanks could honestly do.

MankeyMadnessJan 27, 20191 votes

Conqueror is armor pen. Health stacking is the ONLY thing that deals with it. item 3068 gives 1800g worth of armor, but you only benefit from 1440g of that against Conqueror... and they lowered the health to 425. Tank items need more HP on them ESPECIALLY Sunfire, since it occupies Cinderhulks slot but gives less HP at all times. CH + Randuins will always be better than SF+Randuins.