"Vayne is weak early"

hoganftw·Jan 16, 2018·95 votes·5,253 views

lol

84 Comments

SujirenJan 16, 201844 votes

And before that it was dorans shield+ warlords+ ardent slave that she abused. Can we remove free sustain from adcs already, so lane bullies like Lucian , Draven , Caitlyn , Ezreal MissFortune can keep right clickers like Vayne , Tristana Twitch in check, and force them to build early item 3153 if they want sustain? Instead of rushing item 3031 + item 3087 and sustaining through any poke you put on them.

Jinx HunterJan 17, 201835 votes

{quoted}

And before that it was dorans shield+ warlords+ ardent slave that she abused. Can we remove free sustain from adcs already, so lane bullies like , , , can keep right clickers like , in check, and force them to build early if they want sustain? Instead of rushing + and sustaining through any poke you put on them.

Yah and then those ones snow ball out of control and the issue repeats. All marksmen and their items need nerfs. Not just crit ones, not just lethality abusing ones, not just lane bullies or hypercarries. ALL OF THEM.

This all stops when marksmen are actually given meaningful nerfs and not made the damn central piece of the damn game. NERF MAKRSMEN AND MAKE THEIR ITEMS COST MORE. That will make the game less snowbally. Along with making junglers not be able to gank at 3:30 mins in a thing. Junglers should not be showing their faces till at least 6 mins.

Having a jungler show up to screw you barely 3 mins into a game with them being lvl 3 and you being lvl 1 or 2 is bull.

vgamedudeJan 17, 20188 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jinx Hunter,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yoN7uzl8,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2018-01-17T01:34:24.613+0000)

Yah and then those ones snow ball out of control and the issue repeats. All marksmen and their items need nerfs. Not just crit ones, not just lethality abusing ones, not just lane bullies or hypercarries. ALL OF THEM.

This all stops when marksmen are actually given meaningful nerfs and not made the damn central piece of the damn game. NERF MAKRSMEN AND MAKE THEIR ITEMS COST MORE. That will make the game less snowbally. Along with making junglers not be able to gank at 3:30 mins in a thing. Junglers should not be showing their faces till at least 6 mins.

Having a jungler show up to screw you barely 3 mins into a game with them being lvl 3 and you being lvl 1 or 2 is bull.

THIS

DisembarkJan 17, 201812 votes

If you’re level 1 at 3:30 u got way bigger problems long before the jungler came.

Also ADCs will just use other items if every ADC item is nerfed (they are heavily item reliant, will just build the best items at the time) So you’re saying nerf all AD items? Lol.

Also lol at this whole post.

Jinx HunterJan 17, 20182 votes

{quoted}

If you’re level 1 at 3:30 u got way bigger problems long before the jungler came.

Also ADCs will just use other items if every ADC item is nerfed (they are heavily item reliant, will just build the best items at the time) So you’re saying nerf all AD items? Lol.

Also lol at this whole post.

This is not unheard of, for various reason. You can be late to lane and miss out on creeps from helping your jungler with a leash, you can not be hard pressing and pushing the wave and letting the other guy push. Those two are the most common. Especially letting the other guy push. If he is hard killing minions fast and not just last hitting he can hit lvl 2 first and get a gank off with his jungler while his jungler is lvl 3 and he is lvl 2. You usually see it with a duo, but it still happens and usually in top lane.

WTF am I having to explain this? Do you not know how wave experience manipulation works or the 101 basics of lanning?

Need Gold 4 TentJan 17, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jinx Hunter,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yoN7uzl8,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2018-01-17T01:34:24.613+0000)

Yah and then those ones snow ball out of control and the issue repeats. All marksmen and their items need nerfs. Not just crit ones, not just lethality abusing ones, not just lane bullies or hypercarries. ALL OF THEM.

This all stops when marksmen are actually given meaningful nerfs and not made the damn central piece of the damn game. NERF MAKRSMEN AND MAKE THEIR ITEMS COST MORE. That will make the game less snowbally. Along with making junglers not be able to gank at 3:30 mins in a thing. Junglers should not be showing their faces till at least 6 mins.

Having a jungler show up to screw you barely 3 mins into a game with them being lvl 3 and you being lvl 1 or 2 is bull.

If you do the level 4 route, level 4 when you're level 2 :P

HügöJan 17, 20182 votes

The lvl 3 ganks in the only time when a jungler is ahead in level so why not take adventage of this? But a simple ward will still prevent the gank.

Jinx HunterJan 17, 20183 votes

{quoted}

The lvl 3 ganks in the only time when a jungler is ahead in level so why not take adventage of this? But a simple ward will still prevent the gank.

LeeSin Kayn JarvanIV MonkeyKing don't give one crap about your dinky ward.

HügöJan 18, 20181 votes

Except for kayne the others all have to go through a good placed ward or they are retarded enough to walk lvl 3 past my tower.

VerxintJan 17, 20182 votes

Marksman are going to be a problem as long as they are the most one dimensional class in game.

HeresyHorusJan 17, 20182 votes

Unavoidable ranged stat-checking with addable effects mechanic is the real problem, ADC items being cheap only worsens the problem.

All games i know that have "well thought of" game[lay balance have restrictions to this mechanic.

In DoW games autocannon, heavy bolter, plasma cannon and most heavy ranged squads can easily mess anything up really good.

Shier trade off is that they need time to setup before firing, and if a melee squad manages to engage them in melee they will lose ranged attack and retaliate with weak melee attack if they waste their escape.

even if they used their escape properly, they still need to setup again before firing in ranged mode.

Forgotten Worlds games like Neverwinter Baldurs gate and the likes have similar mechanics for ranged checkers.

Heroes of might and magic have this too.

Why riot didn't learn from those big titles that have lived for so many years, some even outlived their own companies like how DoW outlived THQ and might and magic outlived 3DO.

SKT T1 NEUJan 18, 20181 votes

First of all, what are you talking about?!?!?!?! The Jungler may show up in your lane whenever they want! The whole idea of you complaining about your own map awareness and vision score is pathetic and irrelevant! People may play how they want, and if a Jungler wants to mess up your lane (which is what Jungle was literally meant to do) then don't push your lane in, just play the game and stop complaining about roles and champions that you cant play against . . . But more specifically the whole Jungler thing you've got going on in this post really infuriates me!

summoner 11

SKT T1 NEUJan 18, 20181 votes

*** Realizing now that you're complaining about the wrong thing, you should be asking for early buffs to give less XP, but still, this argument isn't good at all ***

[vayne-pose]

hhaavviikkJan 17, 20182 votes

{quoted}

And before that it was dorans shield+ warlords+ ardent slave that she abused. Can we remove free sustain from adcs already, so lane bullies like , , , can keep right clickers like , in check, and force them to build early if they want sustain? Instead of rushing + and sustaining through any poke you put on them.

why are there ADC lane bullies? ADC's are inherently strong late game so doesn't that mean they should all be weak early game?

kargishJan 17, 20183 votes

ADC bullies exist to keep hyper carry marksmen in check. The trade off is that their late game is weaker.

Except for Draven ... because laws and binds don't apply to him.

hhaavviikkJan 17, 20183 votes

{quoted}

ADC bullies exist to keep hyper carry marksmen in check. The trade off is that their late game is weaker.

Except for ... because laws and binds don't apply to him.

haven't played anything outside ARAM in years so tell me, are these ADC lane bullies able to beat out non ADC's? like can they go top lane or mid lane or w/e? because what you said does make sense, they lane bully other ADC's who are hyper scalers but what about other classes? if they can bully those in lane doesn't that mean it's unfair? because at that point the ADC would be strong at all stages of the game.

I remember years back people were fine with renekton destroying you early game because come mid/late game he was supposedly useless

General Esdeath Jan 17, 201822 votes

To be fair, Vayne does zero damage until 30 seconds in

Dasdi96Jan 16, 201817 votes

The only weak point vayne has is her laning phase but she can cheat that with overheal + fleet footwork + relic shield. She only had a mediocre midgame before people realized that they can rush ie + shiv and do massive critical burst.

MordepoolJan 17, 201815 votes

Vayne being weak early has been untrue for a long time. Considering now that Laning phase ends so fast you could easily say she doesn't have any points of weakness

DisembarkJan 17, 20187 votes

She is weak early but covers up those weaknesses via targons, overheal, and fleet footwork.

H1 H0w are YaJan 16, 20188 votes

She is, she is just abusing Relic Shield which is getting a nerf on the PBE right now

YoungFarmerJan 17, 20187 votes

[{quoted}](name=H1 H0w are Ya,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yoN7uzl8,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-01-16T22:51:26.880+0000)

She is, she is just abusing Relic Shield which is getting a nerf on the PBE right now

Another case of adcs abusing something lol.

SteelflameJan 17, 20186 votes

I mean support items in general are all being abused all over the map, from mages mid and AP jungles abusing the Frostfang line, to the coin tops I've been seeing. Targon ADCs are just how the ADCs are abusing the support items, but seeing games with 5x support items built on a single team is happening in the current patch.

SpiritOfOdysseusJan 17, 20186 votes

"vayne is weak early"... but only compared to other ADCs. That's what people don't want to remember

Ariel the CruelJan 17, 20185 votes

Comparisons are always made relative to similar champions. That's just the nature of a competitive game.

venviJan 17, 20185 votes

she will never ever be balanced with her current kit. she's completely busted out of her mind or she will be worthless and unplayable to make up for how obscenely overloaded her kit is. there is no inbetween.

her autos scale off % hp true damage. you can't build against her. she has self peel, potential hard cc, mobility, and she stealths every second. legitimately just writing it down and she seems like the most broken concept ever designed to me.

she's not ok, and she will never be ok until she gets a complete overhaul and rework. wouldn't mind a lore rework either tbvh.

Ariel the CruelJan 17, 20184 votes

She was reasonably balanced when her kit revolved around stacking as much AS as itemization would allow. . . . And almost exclusively attack speed.

(Before ADC itemization exploded with... well... everything.)

Leaf on BushJan 17, 20185 votes

She has quite a few significant weaknesses but none of them matter when her opponents are bad and don't know how to lane.

Horse GrenadesJan 17, 20183 votes

Like me!

Wînter FoxJan 17, 20184 votes

Didn't you know OP? Early game is now before the minions spawn. You have to take advantage of her weakness then.

ThilmerJan 17, 20184 votes

Vayne USED to be weak in early.

And even then, it was highly debatable.

MizayaJan 17, 20183 votes

Early game won't matter until relic shield is nerfed so that it isn't meta on ADCs anymore.

SteelflameJan 17, 20186 votes

They have two nerfs aimed at that for next patch.

All support items quest reward is being replaced with a built in Sightstone, and Sightstone is being removed. This removes one major value of the Targon route, the recharging shield making them harder to burst in the mid-game because they have roughly +400 HP or so via item hp+shield.
Targon itself is having the heal halved on ranged users (nerfing all ADC users, and Thresh. Riot said they will give Thresh a compensatory buff to make up for the indirect nerf to him).

This should kill the Targon ADC meta entirely.

Pika FoxJan 17, 20183 votes

And kill what little fun supports actually have in a game. Really need to keep the passive shield/movespeed buffs in the quest rewards.

LeetriJan 17, 20182 votes

What's so fun about building Sightstone? You're gonna get the free Sightstone at the same point in the game as normal and the spooky ghosts and speed thing are gonna be put on new items. Only thing that might not come back is the Targon shield, but since the boards has a massive hate-boner for shields I doubt anyone here wants that back.

Pika FoxJan 17, 20182 votes

Nothing is fun about sightstone either. Nothing is fun about warding. But this change essentially takes away our one fun item and gives us our unfun one quicker.

And i like my targons. I like being a tanky support, hitting my gold milestone, and getting my extra protection so i can take more harass with my melee champs to dive better because, you know, im melee. I like upgrading it into my shield, giving me and whoever im diving with or protecting an added shield to not die. I like building tier 2 frost and getting my movespeed on champs where i kite as support, such as support ezreal or zyra, and enjoying playing a mobility based poke build against the enemy. These are fun. Warding is not.

justintime4yaJan 17, 20182 votes

There is plenty about the game that isn't fun, but necessary to win. I doubt any player has the most fun when warding, but it is necessary. Farming in general isn't the most riveting experience, but its the fastest way to make gold.

I understand that not everybody plays to win, but those who play for the sake of fun should consider those who play to win, which is what I think is the aim of the upcoming changes.

Pika FoxJan 17, 20182 votes

Its a terrible change either way. Support is a heavily unliked role. Ontop of that, im a support main. Guess what? When i play a role im going to be playing 90% of the games i play, i want to have fun and enjoy myself. Picking a boring stat stick that just pops out wards is NOT fun. Now instead of opting into how i want to build my champ and play them, im just opting into what minigame i want to play to get gold and wards. Who cares? Its not fun, nor does it emphasize my playstyle.

Winning is worthless if its not enjoyable. Unless youre playing at esports level getting paid money to play the game, if its not fun why bother.

justintime4yaJan 17, 20182 votes

You make a good point about support being underplayed, and aiming to make support fun is a goal that Riot has emphasized in the past to encourage players to play support.

I don't have a solution to the problem of making support more fun, but hopefully in the future we can reach that point.

LordGeovanniJan 17, 20183 votes

This actualy seems to be how you get things buffed and nerfed by riot. as evidenced by adcs 2k17 lul

Bewitching ZoeJan 17, 20183 votes

Define the EARLY part as far as i can tell EARLY ends at 8 minutes max.

Z3SleeperJan 17, 20183 votes

Vayne has short range and other people have longer range is what they mean. She is definitely not weak early.

RendrexJan 17, 20183 votes

The only thing that champion doesn't have is poke and waveclear until she gets item 3087 and item 3094

DuskDaUmbreonJan 17, 20181 votes

She also lacks any kind of defenses at all...

MimrJan 17, 20184 votes

{quoted}

She also lacks any kind of defenses at all...

Dash, stealth, selfpeel/ stun... no defense at all.

DuskDaUmbreonJan 17, 20183 votes

Lands a single bit of CC, or any two burst abilities, Vayne dies

Hits Vayne with about 4-5 autos, Vayne dies

Glares too hard at Vayne, Vayne dies

LegitBusinessmanJan 17, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Lands a single bit of CC, or any two burst abilities, Vayne dies

Hits Vayne with about 4-5 autos, Vayne dies

Glares too hard at Vayne, Vayne dies

Wow I didn't know this, this is really good info. How do I hit her with 4 autos when I just took 1400 from a Q?

Please respond.

Thanks.

DuskDaUmbreonJan 17, 20183 votes

Because you didn't take 1400 damage from a Q. Not at any build with her. Not in any game. Not at any time.

What you did probably take was an Auto into Q into E (which slammed you into a wall, doubling the damage).

All you need to do to hit her with 3-5 autos (or two as Draven) is have some sustain (Any of the sustain items besides a Vampiric scepter will work), and not be stunned by her E, and have a good attack speed.

LegitBusinessmanJan 17, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Because you didn't take 1400 damage from a Q. Not at any build with her. Not in any game. Not at any time.

What you did probably take was an Auto into Q into E (which slammed you into a wall, doubling the damage).

All you need to do to hit her with 3-5 autos (or two as Draven) is have some sustain (Any of the sustain items besides a Vampiric scepter will work), and not be stunned by her E, and have a good attack speed.

Don't tell me what did or did not happen. I know how to read numbers friend.

HalcyonDwellerJan 17, 20183 votes

Too bad early is over at 5 minutes now. Amirite?