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Is There Any way to Include Wolf on the Load Screen cut of Shadowfire Kindred?

AbiwonKenabi··123 votes·8,679 views

The splash art for Shadowfire Kindred, their release skin, was just put up on PBE today. It's quite nice, I really like it. The only problem I have is that the Load Screen version of this splash does not include Wolf, only Lamb. They are trying to sell Lamb and Wolf as two halves of the same person, but this reinforces the idea that Lamb is the Champion. It's a little disappointing, and I was just wondering if there was any solution to this.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-TqLoXMNVaVs/VgRM0ue8JVI/AAAAAAAAx4M/uG6kvuPkheM/s320/Kindred_1.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-MrjWiPdrySw/VgRM0meg9JI/AAAAAAAAx4Q/r5Uu_nlkdFA/s640/Kindred_Splash_1.jpg

Just to reinforce this point: I am NOT disatisfied with the quality of the art itself. It's very good. I only take issue with not having both Wolf and Lamb sharing the load screen.

Edit: Just to clarify, Riot is ALMOST CERTAINLY trying to sell these two as two halves of the same whole and not JUST Lamb: You can read more in Kindred's Champion Insight, but here are a few quotes from there that support that:

"We loved the idea that these two never fought over kills, or were ever at odds, because, in the end, the Lamb and the Wolf are two parts of one whole."

"We started treating them as yin and yang - two halves of a complete whole that couldn’t exist without each other. "

"These characters - the fierce wolf and the gentle lamb - neatly juxtaposed with each other while still functioning and appearing as a single entity"

Edit 2: So Riot apparently agrees with us! It's good to see that they decided to make this change. Why Meddler responded to this post instead of the one with 117 upvotes...idk....but the important part is that they fixed it! :)

http://media.lolusercontent.com/api/embedly/1/image/resize?url=http%3A%2F%2F2.bp.blogspot.com%2F-pMhv28XPnh0%2FVgwcbCgX2NI%2FAAAAAAAAyNI%2FfcvGsvivAt8%2Fs1600%2FKindred_1.jpg&key=a45e967db0914c7fb472fd4381e6c85b&width=150

80 Comments

Horrow11 votes

I was about to make a thread exactly like this.

Wolf definitely should make an appearance in the loading screen cut. Two halves of the same whole. Never one with out the other. They're basically the same concept of Yin and Yang.

Would this mean that Riot would have to create a new splash art? Maybe, due to the positioning of Lamb and Wolf in this specific instance. No offense to the artist of course, the piece itself is very nice. But in all honesty, wolf should be in the same loading screen cut as Lamb. They are one and the same.

If that means Riot would have to commission/create a new piece entirely, I think it would be worth it. It would not only right this wrong, but also provide further proof that Riot does care about the small things like this.

Does it really matter? No, it doesn't. But would make so much more sense and fit thematically with Kindred's lore and background if Wolf was present in the loading screen cut. Its the little things like this that help breathe life into the character.

AbiwonKenabi2 votes

Excellent post, this says everything I was trying to express.

DwarvenGiant10 votes

Having the two of them edited into the loading screen like with the classic skin should be a norm for every Kindred skin.

Noctius288 votes

Not only is the position bad but the lighting favors Lamb alot more then Wolf, he is barely visible in that splash thanks to the dark background which blends with his head

Whoever made this splash did not share the same mentality of "never one without the other" as the people who made the actual champion

There is much they must fix in this and I hope they do make it a rule that all Kindred Splashes must equally demonstrate both characters, else it will create a precedent that tells them they don't need to include wolf because he is nothing more then a pet

Balgorode8 votes

http://a.disquscdn.com/uploads/mediaupload/tmp/43255be0a314dbc55b79aec47f92697114fc410b64436bae1fea9db1/original.jpg?w=800&h Like this?

AbiwonKenabi3 votes

Yeah that's what I had in mind. That's pretty good actually! Nice work!

disregardable7 votes

They are definitely not trying to sell them as two equal halves. Lamb is the champion, wolf is her lesser counterpart.

AbiwonKenabi32 votes

No that's not what they are saying at all. Everything I've read about Kindred states that Riot intends for them to be two halves of the same person. This is why Rioters usually refer to them as "they" and not just "her".

If this was the case, they would have just used Lamb's face as the in-game icon like they would for anybody else, but instead Kindred has a unique map icon that incorporates both Lamb and Wolf into the art. Why would they go to that trouble if Lamb was supposed to be the champion and not both?

disregardable5 votes

I think everything about their dialogue implies that Wolf is the lesser being. Wolf asks questions and Lamb answers. Wolf asks to do something and Lamb decides. Wolf's grammar would indicate that he doesn't have a complete human understanding of the world around him.

As for the in game icon, Quinn gets the same treatment when she's valor. Doesn't mean Valor is as much of the champion as Quinn. Wolf isn't conditionally used as part of Kindred's kit, so he's always in the frame. /shrug

AbiwonKenabi6 votes

I updated my OP with quotes from Kindred's Champion Insight that explicitly state FROM Rioters that worked on this Champion that they intend for these two characters to be halves of the same whole.

Speaking on their lines, I think you need to go read a lot of their lines again, because Wolf has quite a few that he calls and LAMB responds. He also has plenty of solo lines. In fact, Wolf has just as many lines as Lamb (Each have 9 solo movement lines, Wolf actually has more solo attack lines than Lamb). Even the delivery frequency of each is fairly even. And this was done on purpose. In this Reddit post, RiotUtora says "This was done intentionally to never favor one voice over the other." The fact that they even hired two Voice Actors for a single Champion is also pretty good evidence that they want both to be taken equally seriously.

Riot originally wanted to call Quinn "Quinn and Valor" but couldn't because they were limited by the characters they could include in a champion's name. Gnar also has a different icon for Mega Gnar, but I wouldn't call Mega Gnar a separate character either. Kindred's icon does not change as Quinn and Valor's or Gnar's does, it's always the same, but it's not just a snapshot of the splash art like every other champion (including Quinn and Valor both). It's instead designed differently, it's two halves of a mask, one side representing Wolf the other representing Lamb. They didn't do this by accident.

I am not trying to argue whether or not Riot intended for Lamb and Wolf to be the same character. I have overwhelming evidence that this is their intention. Whether or not they succeeded is a matter of opinion and can be debated, but Riot definitely wants Wolf to be in the picture as well (figuratively and perhaps literally too)

disregardable1 votes

Riot definitely wants Wolf to be in the picture as well (figuratively and perhaps literally too)

And yet, they didn't.

A short response to a long post, but you said you wouldn't discuss anything you typed.

AbiwonKenabi11 votes

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-rySski6QkSI/Vfi_c7Ks6QI/AAAAAAAAxYo/LO2HRObCGhA/s320/KindredLoadScreen_2.png

disregardable2 votes

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-TqLoXMNVaVs/VgRM0ue8JVI/AAAAAAAAx4M/uG6kvuPkheM/s320/Kindred_1.jpg

Tails Doll14 votes

Which is exactly the problem. Why so dense.

xFrostKnightx13 votes

They'd have the contact the artist to see what he could do. The problem here is how much bigger wolf is in the art itself. They could cut out the horn Lamb is holding and shift wolfs head across and cut the top right portion of the bow. But it's be messy, unless the color is on separate layers for both. It'll give the pair everyone want's but the lighting would need to be completely redone.

I bothered to give an idea of what I was saying. http://oi62.tinypic.com/2i9ji2h.jpg

AbiwonKenabi6 votes

Your mock up looks pretty good, actually.

I have no idea how easy or hard it would be to do this, that's why I posed it as a question, rather than a demand. It may be more trouble than it's worth, but I at least want to point out the problem so that future skins can take it into account.

Nunya Bezwacks2 votes

you do know the wolf in that image is 3x the size of the loading screen image right?you can see a tiny fraction of wolf yet that one tiny piece takes half the image.

BattleBalladeer2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nunya Bezwacks,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=xE7o4Z88,comment-id=00000000000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2015-09-25T10:20:32.966+0000)

you do know the wolf in that image is 3x the size of the loading screen image right?you can see a tiny fraction of wolf yet that one tiny piece takes half the image.

He is flying in a wide circle around Lamb and by perspective appears to be larger because he is "closer" to your screen than lamb. https://thisistwitchy.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/jackie-chan-wait-what.jpg Edit2: Oh holy cow. You're right (except you can see most of wolf). I really didn't notice at first. Wolf has those huge tusks and Lamb is holding one of them. Wolf is still doing a circle around her though and seems to be coming out of her hair, but it is really awkward when you notice that it isn't just a perspective trick. They are drawn so oddly in perspective you can't even see his right tusk. It's bent down out of his face somehow while the other curves up sharply. I am thinking now that the splash just isn't that great at showing the skin. Might be able to give it a pass since in the default splash he is almost as big.

But still: They could have just drawn him closer to lamb.

Edit: Looks like Wolf's flames are connect to Lamb's in the plash in the way that they drew it. They apparently are using this very large splash to show that and it would probably sacrifice that if they did draw them closer.

Solution is probably to make a load portrait that is an edited version- rather than a cropped version- of the splash.

Carnage1 votes

that's a good one

LeeDark4 votes

It's hard for you to hold that argument when he says "Rioters said it multiple times. See, here's quotes!" and you're response is basically, "Nuh unh!"

disregardable1 votes

I am not trying to argue whether or not Riot intended for Lamb and Wolf to be the same character.

Don't blame me for him not wanting to hear my argument, please.

LeeDark6 votes

You don't have an argument. He has several quotes from Rioters making official statements about the champion's release. You have a loading screen splash art that only just made it to the PBE today, and nothing else. The PBE is where things go to get tested while they can still be changed. That includes art.

AbiwonKenabi2 votes

Exactly. The reason I said I wasn't going to argue was because I made a factual statement--"Riot's intent was for Lamb and Wolf to be treated as two halves of the same character"--and then I provided substantial evidence that Riot indeed said this and intended for this to be true. Whether or not they succeeded is arguable, certainly, but their initial intent is not, and that's why I'm not trying to make an argument.

Thanks LeeDark, you hit the nail right on the head. :)

RJay1239 votes

Wolf is emotion, Lamb is knowledge. If you listen to the VO, Lamb sometimes asks what it's like to feel emotions. Riot explained that the conceptual idea of having Lamb and Wolf is the yin yang. I mean, just the fact that they are lamb and wolf (fabled opposites) and wear masks of each other, is enough to justify the fact that they are two equals. In-game, it's not realistic to be to control both at the same time so Riot does the best they can to share the roles. Lord-wise, wolf represents violent death, and lamb represents quiet death. Wolf is passionate, impulsive, and most certainly feels more emotions than lamb. Lamb is knowledgeable and wise but is basically LoL Kristen Stewart, so they balance each other out.

frigginmurlocs2 votes

Now I want wolf to be voiced by Nick Cage

okino14 votes

but even if they are saying their two halves of one whole you've gotta admit, game play wise and champion wise, wolf seems to be more of a pet thats activated on spell cast. lamb seems to be the main guy here.

AbiwonKenabi5 votes

Gameplay-wise I think Lamb is a tad dominant. Although, Wolf W not only deals a shit ton of damage but has an interaction with Q (shortening the CD) and both Wolf and Lamb are involved with the E (Wolf deals the last hit, and this is somewhat significant since he is a different and slower projectile that originates wherever Wolf is, not where Lamb is, although often that is one and the same) and they are both involved in the passive. The only ability in which Wolf isn't involved what-so-ever is the ult, which is called Lamb's Respite.

Admittedly Wolf is still only a compliment to Lamb, but here is where we start to get into design problems: making a champion where you truly control two separate people simultaneously is super duper hard to get right. A Rioter (I think Meddler?) even posted saying they thought the "mental budget" of controlling two units like that at once is more trouble than it's worth. There's no easy solution.

So I assumed instead they would focus on other ways to try and sell that they are one whole. Like the load screen maybe? :P

Leetri3 votes

Lorewise she's dominant as well. Wolf always ask her for permission to chase and attack, so it makes sense that you control Lamb controlling Wolf. Lamb never asks Wolf if she can kill, she just does it. She's the grownup and Wolf is the child by her side, so to say.

AbiwonKenabi4 votes

I see this as more as the fact that each is capable of emotions that the other isn't, since they were split in half. When you (or anybody else) has a compulsive thought you usually ask yourself if it's a good idea to act on that thought. "I want to punch my boss in the face, but should I?" Wolf is incapable of doing that, since he only has the compulsive, passionate side of the two. He asks Lamb, who got the patience and restraint. Wolf doesn't talk back to Lamb, because Lamb IS himself, or at least the sensible, somewhat emotionless half.

Chrige1 votes

Just like to point out that HoTS has a character thats 3 people, so it is possible.

AbiwonKenabi1 votes

I'm not saying it's impossible, just very difficult to pull off. I am also basing this on what some of the designers have said.

I also have not played HoTS, so I have no opinion on the execution of the 3 person character.

frigginmurlocs1 votes

I think it was mentioned by one of the Rioters that the interface is not designed in a way that enables this easily, unlike dota or hots which both originated in blizzard rts engines

GreenLore4 votes

That actually does make sense to some extent. In Yin and Yang,Yang is the active one of the 2,while Yin also stands for passiveness. So wolf who represents Yin being more of a bonus to Lamb who is Yang kinda fits.

Fowus2 votes

Riot refers to them as two halves that make a whole

Ironclad Dragon7 votes

I think they need to keep this mind while making future Kindred Skins in the future.

Whimsy Spook7 votes

Here's one where Wolf is a little smaller then the other mock-ups presented here so far!

http://i58.tinypic.com/wlat6h.jpg

AbiwonKenabi1 votes

Nice one! It incorporates Wolf well without infringing too much on Lamb.

I'm posting from my phone at the moment, but when I get to a computer, I think I will update my OP with a couple of these mockups. They get the idea across quite well.

AChanceOfReign6 votes

I would love to see both Lamb and Wolf in the loading screen, with both skins

Wicked Degree5 votes

I made my own post on this, but since this post is on maintaining the identity of Kindred, I thought it was relevant to point out here as well. Why does this skin not juxtapose Lamb and Wolf? They aren't wearing masks at all, let alone EACH OTHER'S masks. I go into a lot more detail in my post though. Absolutely they both need to be in the load screen. That's 90% of what people see.

AbiwonKenabi2 votes

Yeah that is a good point. They could have at least made Lamb's "mask" soot black and Wolf's "mask" more white. Admittedly, the skin at least good looking and pretty cool, but as a launch skin, there certain expectations to be met. Riot often says how they want to choose a launch skin that really capitalizes on what the character is (instead of releasing, for example a goofy skin that seems like an obvious concept but doesn't show what the champion is all about). It's questionable whether or not they succeeded with Kindred.

Regardless, I'm not going to ask Riot to completely change a skin that is perfectly fine. The least they can do though is make an effort on the load screen. If nothing else, assuming nothing can be done--the artists can't change it or are already working on another project or it's too much work, etc--I hope they take all this feedback to heart for future skins

Sukishoo2 votes

Personally I love the splash and found the slice fine. Sure, it's not both, but you have to realize they can't always do that due to the fact that they are gonna always appear in different positions in each of their splash arts.

AbiwonKenabi6 votes

Like I said, the splash is great, I really like it. It has Wolf flowing directly out of Lamb which is a really neat idea. The problem is that most of the time you see this skin, you don't see the entire splash art, so you don't always get that "they are connected" impact that the splash as a whole gives.

I'm just wondering if there is some way they can edit Wolf to be closer exclusively in the load cut, like a unique load screen version of the splash. Even if they don't do anything, I still think it's something they should think about for future Kindred skins. Like maybe incorporate them closer in the splash, or make a unique load screen or occasionally feature Wolf in the load screen. It's little things like this that make it feel like Riot is trying hard to characterize this champion the way they intended, and not just giving up on the idea after the initial release.

GenoXx1 votes

Does it really matter? Does it really?? Is it that important??

AbiwonKenabi5 votes

It's just a question. Do I sound really worked up about it?

Because I'm not, I just thought it would be a nice thing and would be in-line with what they are trying to do with this character. I am fond of this champion so far, but I won't lose sleep or anything.

GenoXx1 votes

Seriously, is it important? This is just a question.

AbiwonKenabi9 votes

It depends on how you are talking. In the grand scheme of life, no, this isn't important. In the scheme of the game, it's probably not THAT important. In the scheme of the character, I think it's important.

I'm just giving feedback about how I think the character or art etc could be improved.

Jari3 votes

Is your question important? This is just a question.

GenoXx1 votes

It's just as important as this thread

Jari2 votes

Which, from a gameplay standpoint, there is no point. When you look at it from a character point though, it has important reasons.

So, your question is as important as the gameplay standpoint of it, but not the character point.

GenoXx1 votes

Don't twist my words. I did not say anything the character or gameplay standpoint. I said it's just as relevant as a thread regarding such a petty issue.

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