You know what Zoe reminds me of?

ModAcademy Kayn··26 votes·7,871 views

Calvin and Hobbes. Read pretty much all of the comics and the books that held 'em, and there is a pretty good similarity between Zoe and Calvin. Both have their own agency, both hate school, both are wildly imaginative, and they take very little regard for other people in their grand scheme of things.

More importantly, a common thought being passed around people on the boards at the moment, is that they both share a lack of empathy towards other people, alongside the fact that neither seem to be able to see things from other people's perspective. The more popular post on the boards talks about just how unlikable Zoe is, that she's a sociopath.

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Calvin likes doing some pretty shitty things, especially to Susie ah childhood love, and it's only really by his parents scolding or forcing, does he ever really feel any guilt about doing so. The only time he acts "nice" as well, are the times when his own sense of agency is fulfilled, like when Susie found hobbes when he was missing, but even then he yoinks all the cookies. Calvin doesn't have a huge ability to self reflect, and when he does, it's very rare.

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Like the time when he locked his babysitter outside the house, and then gorges himself on oreos, until his parents come home and let's her back in. He doesn't feel guilty or bad about it, until he get's scolded by his parents, and forced to apologize. Yes, he's kinda a sociopath, but a lot of it is because he's young, and doesn't think much about consequences until they happen.

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Zoe is largely, in my opinion, the same when it comes to this path of thought. A child who has only her own urgency at mind most of the time, whose allowed a huge leash on using her powers. There is no one to scold her, to reprimand her, to force her to feel guilty about things. Allow that type of behavior to go on for several thousands of years, and you have that mindset pretty locked in.

Now, the second trail of thought being lead around, is that what Calvin is doing is much more akin to being a Trickster, than what Zoe has done. For this, I'd like to separate two trains of thought.

  1. Calvin is doing what he is able to do with his circumstance. He's just a kid, with a bunch of snow, doors, or water balloons at his disposal, versus adults, kids, and College students forced to take babysitting jobs. Zoe messing with A. Sol may seems like Torture to us, but on her power level, that's the kinda of stuff you'd see as a trick. Getting tied up, and then petted by some small girl, embarrassing maybe, but torture? I don't see it.

  2. Zoe blowing up the Guard tower and/or guards, not the whole town as clarified in the "I dont know why people hate Zoe" thread, she does not have to be a trickster 100% of the time. She is also a Messenger, and her revealing the World Rune via her destruction of the tower, was just apart of the job that she seems to follow by instinct, or influence, from the Aspect. Calvin has his own agency, Zoe has less of her own, still abiding by some ancient responsibility.

(There's also the bit about the Aspect being the Trickster one, and not Zoe, but enh)

My point being, is that a lot of the things that people are hating on Zoe for, are pretty intrinsic to being young and spirited. Being lazy, not wanting to study, not understanding empathy, they are child-like traits that have only been set in stone by being whisked away from Runeterra. She's remained untaught from the social norms that we were raised by, and likely never scolded by the Aspect within, who likes and enjoys those traits.

Does that make her unlikable? Maybe, but she's honestly just a kid whose never been taught any better. The only difference between her and Calvin is he at least has a higher authority to make him feel guilty about what he has done. Zoe doesnt, so I don't think that makes her a sociopath. It just makes her a child.

35 Comments

RiotWAAARGHbobo17 votes

I’m a huge Calvin and Hobbs fan! I loved it as a kid and now as a parent, I can vouch for its observational veracity. Though, I didnt reference this work directly, I might have subconciously.

Beyond Legends1 votes

Just asking are you guys still planning to to the Zoe ama?

RiotWAAARGHbobo6 votes

I think that’s ussually on the free-to-play day. Donno, it just appears on my work calendar at some point.

Beyond Legends2 votes

Free-to-play day?

Raven Redeemed4 votes

champs are usually free to play a week or two after they are released

Killaburn1 votes

what?? we don't have that in garena ph :(

Ez dePaz1 votes

You don't have weekly champion rotations?

Killaburn1 votes

we have, but it takes 3-6 months for them to make new champs free to play and its great that you can play them a week or two prior release.

ModAcademy Kayn4 votes

Calvin and Hobbes was my parents solution to keeping us entertained during car rides. Made me into the huge reader I am today.

WOOOOOOOOHOOOOOO4 votes

A lot of people tend to forget that kids tend to be little shits.

Baron Von Bangin4 votes

I disagree. Watterson wrote Calvin in a very believable way. Calvin uses his imagination to make the world around him more magical. Calvin gets into harmless trouble like throwing water balloons or a snowball. Calvin is endearing because you see the softer side of him with Hobbes. Calvin feels remorse when he sees the hurt he's caused. He feels guilt and shame.

Zoe, by contrast, doesn't get into harmless fun. She obliterates humans from the face of the earth in one badly written sentence. She has never played any trick on anyone as far as I've seen or read (despite constant claims she's a trickster?). Zoe feels no remorse. Rioters try to say Zoe gets along with Aurelion Sol? How does that work? He's ENSLAVED. A sapient being tied to the will of others and forced to see his life's work destroyed if he attempts to create, only to be used as a weapon. How can Aurelion Sol possibly like Zoe? It makes no sense.

Zoe is nothing like Calvin. She isn't mischievous, she's malicious. She isn't endearing, she's dangerous. If the color story had been better written I might be inclined to agree with all these random tidbits we've been fed on the board, but as it stands Zoe is terrible.

ModAcademy Kayn5 votes

Calvin feels remorse

Lmao. He feels remorse only when his parents scold him or he gets caught. There is one time in near memory when he actually feels remorse about being mean to Susie by himself, and actually apologizes, but he after getting that apology, he runs off to do whatever he feels like doing. It was really more about ridding himself of guilt then it was to meaningfully say sorry.

Zoe feels no remorse

See back to Calvin, who only really feels remorse/guilt when he's in trouble. Zoe has no one to hold her accountable, she's been doing what she's been doing for thousands of years without reprimand. So, you have someone detached from reality for a millennial, who has been indulging her own fun, and has the power of teleportation, meteors, and time (with sight into past, future, and spirit world).

And you're telling me, that she should feel remorse for the death of people who, to Aspects and Targonians, are fleeting life forms? People keep acting like she is just a child, but she isn't. She has the attitude of one, but she has the perspective of something much greater. What is your basis for the claim that she needs to feel remorse for people?

Sol's enslaved

But she's not torturing him. While it might be embarrassing to be tied up and petted albeit my guilty pleasure, but how exactly could you hate someone who's just being a kid? You talk about her having no remorse, but do you really think that with A. Sol's gigantic ego, he would lower himself to killing a kid, who may not even know the fullness of what she's doing?

If you were enslaved, and broke free, would you really kill a kid who may not have an entire grasp of what's actually happening?

besides what if he likes being petted....

Zoe is nothing like Calvin

She is exactly like Calvin, we just have more books, comics, and sources to judge Calvin off of then we do on Zoe. Malicious also means with purposeful intent to do harm. Do we really categorize her wanting to pet A. Sol as harm? Maybe you can say that about the Guards, but to what degree does she have control over that, when that was her Message to deliver in the first place? She didn't hurt them to hurt them, she hurt them because they were attacking her.

Baron Von Bangin4 votes

There's plenty of strips by Watterson showing Calvin's fear and care for others. He cares for the planet and is regretful people trash it so much. He's beside himself when Hobbes goes missing. He finds an injured raccoon and goes running for his mom so they can help it. There's plenty of examples of Calvin caring and being sincere. It's these glimpses into his character that show us he's human. That he's relatable and that he's growing and learning. Saying that we don't have enough of Zoe isn't good enough. If all we have is her obliterating people from the face of the earth and then giggling not moments after the fact you'll have to forgive me if I think she's horrible.

If I were Aurelion Sol and I wanted to travel the expanse of the universe, creating life and light and was forced to stop, torn from my one love in existence to be reduced to a pet at the beck and call of a monster in children's skin? One that denies my sapience and free will and trivializing my existence to that of a dog? Yea. I'd annihilate my slaver given the chance and opportunity.

It's fine for Zoe to be horrible. She can be a terrible monster in children's clothing (skin?). That's a neat thematic niche for league. But don't go running around pretending she's just a cutesy little kid just based on how she looks.

ModAcademy Kayn5 votes

But that isn't Calvin feeling remorse for his actions. That's feeling sad about a dying animal, that's idealistic youth about the world we live in, that's (to him) losing his best friend in the world. That isn't remorse, so you're kinda moving the bar, alongside the fact that those types of issues are on Calvin's level of power, things that actually effect him.

There are also several examples of Calvin being selfish and mean, but like said, we have way many more instances of him that show both sides of him. You're also, like said, looking at her from a mortal perspective. There are a few greek gods who care about humanity in lore, but a lot of them don't give a shit. Because that's what Zoe is, a God to most people on Runeterra. You're throwing a mortal perspective onto a god, and then judging her by human standards.

It concerns me how you'd murder a child who may not even know the fullness of the actual situation. You're telling me that Sol, 100%, would treat Zoe the same as he would Pantheon? I don't see it, and I think your depiction of A. Sol is much further off base of reality than it really is.

She is not a cutesy kid. She's a cutesy kid Goddess, with a much different perspective on Life in Runeterra than ours. Stop applying normal human standards.

Baron Von Bangin3 votes

On my phone now so my replies won't be as in depth as I'd like.

When I bring up Calvin I'm referring to the fact we see, as readers, instances of concern, empathy, and remorse. Traits I've yet to see from Zoe.

To address your last two points, I don't think it's fair to give a pass on one hand for being a kid but on the other dismiss acts of cruelty because she's a "god".

In terms of her power and perspective warping her vision of Runeterta I'd counter that by bringing up Taric. He's an aspect and is considered by many to be a virtuous and empathetic being despite his power. So to then give Zoe a pass despite the same circumstance speaks more to her a person than her godlike status.

ModAcademy Kayn4 votes

And what good readers do is look in depth from just what we read. We make inferences based on commonalities, other tropes, meanings beyond the words of the Author. Just because the Story did not focus on concern, empathy, and remorse, does not mean she doesn't have any.

She is just not in a situation where her own agency would make her feel those traits. Why feel sad that something died, when you've seen everything die, realities crumble? Death becomes a natural part of a cycle, and when she's delivering messages, it becomes near akin to Destiny at that point. She has the agency of a kid, but the perspective of a God.

And when you talk about concern, empathy, and remorse, who are you referencing? The ants known as humanity to most Targonians? Why should she feel anything for them? Explain to me why. Why?

Taric has been an Aspect for meer minutes compared to Zoe. He was also an adult when he was made an aspect. He probably was raised and trained by the military. He was able to grow as a person, as he understands and loves the beauty of the world, before he became an aspect. The two are not comparable.

Baron Von Bangin1 votes

Correct. Good readers do that. Which is why I I'm confused you bring it up but then say I'm reading too much into Aurelion Sol's character? Or saying it's off base when we have a written example of Sol "accidentally" obliterating an aspect for ordering him around.

Aspects don't think humans are ants. Zoe does. We have examples of aspects who don't think that way.Taric finds life beautiful. He protects people and the world. You say that's because of Taric as a person. THAT'S RIGHT! It is because of Taric as a person. Just like Zoe does horrible things because of who she is as a person.

ModAcademy Kayn2 votes

Taric is not Zoe, this is true. Zoe has been doing this job for thousands of years, and she has had so many more and different experiences than him. Taric's entire aspect is based around protecting beauty, not humans in particular. Wasn't it his color story where he waltzed onto a battlefield just to protect a flower? (Or the end of his comic?)

If it's in the matter for him to protect whatever piece of Beauty, he might regret having to kill someone to do it, but that's because Taric is mature, and an adult. He has the ability to reflect on his actions, much more than Zoe does.

And I'd like to emphasize this one bit. TARIC HAS BEEN AN ASPECT FOR VERY LITTLE. You can not compare the two together, they're entirely different. Zoe knows she's different from the other humans, while Taric might still identify as one.

A. Sol obliterated the Pantheon without a care because he was being ordered around, and actually commanded by him. Pantheon was acting like the actual slaver in this case. Zoe is just a kid having fun. There's a large difference between the two.

Baron Von Bangin1 votes

I think I can compare them, actually. Riot has said on multiple occasions that when they become an aspect there is a blending. In Leona's story (as much as I dislike it) she has a change of heart about the Lunari and Diana after becoming an aspect. I imagine the same is true for the rest of them and I don't see why Zoe gets a pass.

She has the combined wisdom of her aspect just like Taric does. But she's the one that chooses to kill and be a danger to humans. That's on Zoe.

ModAcademy Kayn2 votes

Because, what if, the Aspect she merged with doesn't give a fuck. Tell me, do you think Loki cares about mortals? Do you think a God considers killing a human as "Murder"? No, they don't.

So, she killed some people. My point in the OP is that the reason she doesn't self-reflect on that is because she's young, and has never been reprimanded on what's right or wrong. That doesn't make her a sociopath, she's just following a job, in which she doesn't even know what the job is.

So if her job was to destroy the Guard tower, and some guards died in the process, is she responsible for it, or are the people who sent the message the ones responsible? Are you going to shoot the messenger?

Baron Von Bangin1 votes

See, I think I'm starting to see the disconnect between our arguments. You think, that because she doesn't care it's okay for her to kill and it not somehow be horrible. I'm not arguing from a moral relativist standpoint. I'm arguing from my own moral standpoint, and what I assume is many other's since she's gotten so much hate. I think she's horrible. I think it's WRONG for her to kill these people with no feeling or remorse. Other characters in her position don't share those same values as her. They do not think it's okay to obliterate towns out of existence. Other "gods" also think it's wrong. so even by her own god-like standards what she is doing is wrong.

If the messenger comes into a town and kills a bunch of people then yea, I'll shoot the messenger. The messenger KILLED people. The messenger is the criminal now.

I never once said Zoe was a sociopath, so I'm not sure where that argument is coming from when directed at me. I've argued she's horrible and dangerous and her "cute" look is nothing more than a meager facade. On the surface she appears cute. But everything I've seen of her a dangerous, uncaring force.

It's okay to like Zoe. Hell, I like Darth Vader and he's a gigantic asshole. It's cool to like evil pricks. I get it. It's fine to like Zoe because she's appears cute but is actually an enormous danger to those around her. I just don't see why we have to pretend it's okay for Zoe to do these things and pretend like she's completely free of any agency. If you say you like her and all her horribleness (which I think is what you're arguing) then fine, that's totally cool. Terrible people as characters are fun to like. But by no means is she innocent or not dangerous and a murderer.

I think we've made most of our arguments clear. So I'll take my leave from this thread now, but know that I'm not speaking from a point of moral relativism. Even by her own godlike standards (when comparing her to Diana, Leona, and Taric) she does terrible things (like enjoying the enslavement of Aurelion Sol and kills swathes of people) things that Calvin has never, or even come close to doing. The child comparison is there but I think key aspects of the comparison are missing... like the murder and enslavement of beings, which to reiterate, I think makes you a terrible person, even if you are a god or a child.

IDreamOfJhinie3 votes

Yeah, good readers might do that, but Good Writers don't leave things so ambiguous that more than half of the players think that Zoe is despicable. It was Riot story, if they really wanted to show a tender side to Zoe like they do with Calvin, they could've fixed the story a bit before publishing, but they didn't. So the "but we have seen tons of Calvin" doesn't serve as an excuse for her being such an unlikable character.

And honestly while I'm willing to give a pass to Riot's... (I'm sorry) less than stellar writing because they write about the characters I love, they really dropped the ball with Zoe's color text in general.

I mean, the color text in general was dull, undescriptive and boring! How can I fill details in a satisfactory fashion if the story it presents is barebones?

The best I can get to interpret is that Zoe is a brat, an uninteresting brat that is.

ModAcademy Kayn6 votes

They attempted to write the story from the perspective of a child whose sense of agency is all over the place. I'll agree with ya that it didn't work out well, but the traits that people are hating, those are traits intrinsic to being young.

Not understanding the consequences of your actions, not caring about things, wanting to have fun and pet cute things, she's just a kid who was never taught any better, and pretty much enabled to not learn about those by the Aspect. Sure, she's a brat, but saying she's sociopathic is where I take issue with other people.

I also personally disagree with the "uninteresting" part, but my opinions are based off in left field anywoo.

IDreamOfJhinie2 votes

Agree, although i'm not a fan of that "eternally with the mind of a child" trope I think it kinda fits in this situation, not a fan, but its somewhat justified in context for the reasons you already explained above.

Although I want to discuss what makes Zoe interesting for you. I'm practicing to become a writer and I want to know more or less what is well done about a character I percieve to be so irritating and uninteresting.

Also sorry for my bad grammar, english isn't my first language and I swear to god I can't write today lol.

ModAcademy Kayn4 votes

Well, the most interesting point of what I see is Zoe, is that her sense of agency, and her job are tied together in the weirdest way. Think about it like this

  • Zoe is a messenger, but has no idea what the message she is meant to deliver. So she just teleports on impulse half the time, and follows her own sense of agency (the cute critter and approaching the kids playing Tag).

  • Yet by doing this, she somehow follows into the plan of the message she was meant to deliver. In her story, this was her destroying the guard tower and revealing the world rune. It's only after this, is she able to teleport again, and continue with her next message.

So, from what I read from this, is that her ability to teleport was being blocked by the higher ups (or her Aspect) until the message is delivered. Yet, she accomplished this entirely through her own indulgence, to want to play with the interesting boy?

So that's what intrigues me, her sense of agency leads to the message being delivered, which allows her to go on and deliver the next message. How is what she wants to do, linked so heavily with the message that need be delivered?

It'd be like if you wanted a pudding cup, but along the way to the store, you end up saving someone from being mugged. Your desire for pudding put you in the correct circumstance to save someone, and this doesn't seem to be anything new to Zoe.

She's literally a creature of Impulse somehow achieving goals unbeknownst to her until the final result.

The, much shorter, other thing that intrigues me, is just what on the world would happen if she threw a tantrum. Her ability to deliver messages seems entirely linked to her sense of agency, so what happens if she's just steaming mad or absolutely depressed.

How does her change in emotions affect her agency, which would affect her medium in which a message is delivered.

IDreamOfJhinie1 votes

Well, yeah it's interesting when you put it like that. Did WAAAAAARGHbobo write Zoe? I hope he (or whoever wrote Zoe) sees your post in particular because i think he needs to focus on that.

I think that, even though the premise could be interesting the dull and vague descriptions kept the story from being engaging. Add up that Zoe's character keeps switching topics and you get something that is hard to follow with interest. (By the way, I think that Zoe's short attention span is actually a nice trait, but when you pair it with the vague prose...yeah)

If it was WAAAAARGHbobo who wrote Zoe, I really, really hope he takes notes of the critique he is reciving and doesn't get discouraged from all the hate, I think he could be an excellent writer, he has wonderful ideas but his descriptions sometimes are kinda monotonous. But my god, does he know how to write dialogue and characterize! The champs he writes are always a pleasure to listen at, and most of the time the stories are nice overall!

RocketRelm1 votes

IIRC, from some rioter comments I read on the subject (and I'd need to dig up the exact one), but Aurelion Sol is largely getting along with Zoe because he thinks she may be his ticket to freedom.

junglerboy163 votes

Calvin and Hobbes was my childhood and is still one of the best comic strips of all time.

Zoe is an uninteresting bubblegum sociopath that makes me want to uninstall the game. I wish she were close to as good as Calvin.

Escheton3 votes

Of course Zoe lacks empathy on a basic human level. Her scope is just so much bigger. If you watch universes collapse as a brunch pastime, do you actively empathise for every live in it? No, you look at the pretty and move on. It's not that she's a sociopath, it's that we are ants to her. And even tho she used to an ant herself, and is starting to identify and feel like one again. You really should not look at her as just a human girl.

Electro5221 votes

This was very well written. Kudos sir. Take my +1!

MillForMe1 votes

I'm jealous that you wrote this in a much cleaner way than I did and hit all the points neatly. But very nice. I'm glad I'm not alone in this viewpoint.

rtbf2256182411 votes

Although no human on Earth, including the writers can comprehend how long a millennia is for a human mind. I bet because of the Aspect, Zoe remembers nothing that's a week old because if she did, she'd learn regardless.

ModAcademy Kayn1 votes

I'm more than certain the aspect is influencing her in some way, especially with her delivery of messages.

rtbf2256182411 votes

That seems to make the most sense, but applying a condition like this just to have a permanent child in League, unlike Annie, it makes her a one-dimensional plot device.

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