the more i read ekkos comic, the more sorry i feel for the whistling man.

lolipopevelynn··57 votes·4,550 views

poor whistling man. just minding his own business walking home to his wife and kids when all of a sudden he was mugged by some random white kid with goggles. knowing how dangerous the streets of zaun are he immediately defends himself and fatally wounds the kid. just one shot. not like he was trying to kill him, he just wanted to get the this mugger off him so he could go home safely.

next thing you know a black kid comes out of no where and kills the poor whistler for defending himself against a mugging. "you dare defend yourself against a mugging?!?!? I KEEL YOU!"

typical gang violence if you ask me. whistler was at the wrong place at the wrong time. RIP.

68 Comments

Ebonmaw Dragon28 votes

The comic is confusing, but, the man is alive at Piltover. Instead of killing him, Ekko went to talk with his friend for a last time.

But no one has answered me this: WHY THE MAN OF PILTOVER WAS IN ZAUN AT NIGHT ALONE?

lolipopevelynn3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ebonmaw Dragon,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=oI1AYAh0,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-05-22T00:29:28.690+0000)

The comic is confusing, but, the man is alive at Piltover. Instead of killing him, Ekko went to talk with his friend for a last time.

But no one has answered me this: WHY THE MAN OF PILTOVER WAS IN ZAUN AT NIGHT ALONE?

zaun and piltover are practically the same. they are only separated by a river. maybe the man lives in zaun but had business in piltover or vice versa?

BetaDude4010 votes

Zaun and Piltover are practically complete opposites. Zaun is a cesspool of unregulated scientific research wreaking havoc on the environment, its citizens, and everyone unfortunate enough to be around them. Piltover, on the other hand, seeks to better humanity (yordleanity? I dunno.), and they are very conscious about the aftermath of their experiments (with the possible exception of Ziggs) and they uphold the law with the greatest of their ability. Zaun, on the other hand, is known to have violent tendencies, and is home to psychopaths and freaky human-sized anthropomorphic rats due to Zaun's reckless abandon for anything other than profit.

So no, they are not similar other than they are based around technology.

As for business, I'm not entirely sure. I doubt that a Piltover (Piltoverian? I need words, dammit!) corporate official would want to muck about with the political, social, and possibly quite literal time bomb that is Zaun. Plus, they might risk their integrity in the public eye for working with Zaunites in business. Really, there isn't much of a way to tell, but it's possible random whistling guy did have some contract work or something in Zaun.

Ebonmaw Dragon1 votes

{quoted}

I doubt that a Piltover (Piltoverian? I need words, dammit!)

Piltie... i dont know the correct word but Piltie is perfect.

BetaDude404 votes

Demacia = Demacian Noxus = Noxian Ionia = Ionian Shurima = Shuriman Bandle City = ??? Shadow Isles = ??? Bilgewater = Bilgerat? Freljord = ??? (probably different terms depending on which freaky icy woman you side with) Icathia/Void = Icathian/Voidian or Voidborne? Targon = Targonian? Zaun = Zaunite Piltover = Piltie?

I need help here. We can do this, JUST GOTTA BELIEVE IN THE POWER OF NATIONAL ADJECTIVES

Ebonmaw Dragon2 votes

{quoted}

Demacia = Demacian Noxus = Noxian Ionia = Ionian Shurima = Shuriman Bandle City = ??? Shadow Isles = ??? Bilgewater = Bilgerat? Freljord = ??? (probably different terms depending on which freaky icy woman you side with) Icathia/Void = Icathian/Voidian or Voidborne? Targon = Targonian? Zaun = Zaunite Piltover = Piltie?

I need help here. We can do this, JUST GOTTA BELIEVE IN THE POWER OF NATIONAL ADJECTIVES

Targon = Rakkor and Solari?... i guess... Shadow Isles = Shadow Islander? ... at least i call them like that... Icathia/Void = Icathian/Voidborn Freljord = Freljordian? Bilgewater = Pirates are called like they want cause a pirate is free, they are pirates.(?) Bandle City = Bandlean? Bandler? Bandlist? Bandlician? bandle... something else?.... whatever, lets call them yordles...(?)

Xenohaz1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ebonmaw Dragon,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=oI1AYAh0,comment-id=000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-05-22T03:23:07.142+0000)

Bandle City = Bandlean? Bandler? Bandlist? Bandlician? bandle... something else?.... whatever, lets call them yordles...(?)

Bandlite?

Melancholy Exile11 votes

The word you're looking for is Piltovian, although I certainly thought it was Piltoverian for a long time.

“As part of Demacian security regulations, city entrance checkpoints are outfitted with Piltovian Techmaturgical Sensors,” - The Journal of Justice: Volume 1, Issue 15.

Tesla Effect11 votes

{quoted}

Demacia = Demacian Noxus = Noxian Ionia = Ionian Shurima = Shuriman Bandle City = ??? Shadow Isles = ??? Bilgewater = Bilgerat? Freljord = ??? (probably different terms depending on which freaky icy woman you side with) Icathia/Void = Icathian/Voidian or Voidborne? Targon = Targonian? Zaun = Zaunite Piltover = Piltie?

I need help here. We can do this, JUST GOTTA BELIEVE IN THE POWER OF NATIONAL ADJECTIVES

Demacia = Demacian Noxus = Noxian Ionia = Ionian Shurima = Shuriman Bandle City = Bandle Citizen Shadow Isles = Harrowings Bilgewater = Bilgerat or just Pirates Freljord = Avarosan, Winters Claw, Frostguard , Ursine, Lokfarian, Freljordian The Void = Voidling / Voidborn or just Void Mount Targon = Rakkori, Solari, Lunari Zaun = Zaunite Piltover = Piltovian Urtistan = Uritistinian Icathia = Icathian

Thanotos Omega3 votes

He could be from Zaun but Ekko just assumes any rich well dressed guy who doesn't care about killing a kid must be from the other bad place, he is a kid and a rather overly passionate one,

WolfBV2 votes

{quoted}

Zaun and Piltover are practically complete opposites. Zaun is a cesspool of unregulated scientific research wreaking havoc on the environment, its citizens, and everyone unfortunate enough to be around them. Piltover, on the other hand, seeks to better humanity (yordleanity? I dunno.), and they are very conscious about the aftermath of their experiments (with the possible exception of Ziggs) and they uphold the law with the greatest of their ability. Zaun, on the other hand, is known to have violent tendencies, and is home to psychopaths and freaky human-sized anthropomorphic rats due to Zaun's reckless abandon for anything other than profit.

So no, they are not similar other than they are based around technology.

As for business, I'm not entirely sure. I doubt that a Piltover (Piltoverian? I need words, dammit!) corporate official would want to muck about with the political, social, and possibly quite literal time bomb that is Zaun. Plus, they might risk their integrity in the public eye for working with Zaunites in business. Really, there isn't much of a way to tell, but it's possible random whistling guy did have some contract work or something in Zaun.

I like to think that Piltover likes to be safe when it comes to experiments and makes moderate to great progress in things while Zaun, as it has no laws really against hurting others, makes a lot of progress in a cartoon of things. Like reviving the dead and making sentient machines. Madmen like Viktor with his glorious revolution. Twitch. Mundy the drug lord.

Dandymann2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hallows Evelynn,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=oI1AYAh0,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-05-22T00:33:26.790+0000)

zaun and piltover are practically the same. they are only separated by a river. maybe the man lives in zaun but had business in piltover or vice versa?

If you haven't noticed, the two cities hate eachoher, and I doubt would entertain business with one another. There's a reason Ekko calls them "Pilties" and has a unique taunt for every Piltover champion

ForPortal11 votes

I was probably going to start a thread along similar lines before too long, but I might as well give my two cents here.

In response to somebody making what I thought was an ill-conceived rant about the racial makeup of LoL, I suggested a different approach: the next time Riot makes a human champion, just have them be black. If he was going to be a paladin, make him a black paladin. If she was going to be a crossbowwoman, make her a black crossbowwoman. No other change is necessary or wanted, just treat their skin colour the same way you would their eye or hair colour, as an aesthetic feature and nothing more.

Ekko is not that champion.

Ekko's character design is not aspirational. He is not, as I had hoped for, a black man or woman who thrived in a world where our world's racial baggage simply does not exist. He is a black kid who hates cops and people from the wrong side of the bay and violently defends a thief's honour. And I find that a bit sad.

ChaoticPinecone9 votes

i read it differently.

He is a young black kid who grew up in the tough side of town. He is smart. Very smart. Of the people from Zaun, he is one of the smartest, especially to create something like a Z Drive. (in comparison, creating Bltizcrank was considered a scientific revolution). he is also extremely motivated, reliving one moment 91 times until he got to his friend before he died.

His heart and his emotions are in the right place. He is enemies with Viktor, even though Viktor is another Zaunite, because Viktor is "everything wrong with Zaun". He tells Dr. Mundo, another crazy Zaunite, to go "outside of Zaun". He doesnt like Twitch, a plague rat (and criminal), saying "You give Zaun a bad name". he is friends with Zac, probably because "Zac vowed to defend all ordinary lives threatened by extraordinary treachery and wickedness" (Zac was raised by scientists like a child, and had a home, so was unlikely from the slums). He had the choice to violently defend his dying friends honor or comfort him as he dies - he chooses the latter. He feels guilty for sending the kid out when he got shot - his first words were "i wasnt even hungry".

He also has deep bonds to his roots, evidenced by his commitment to Zaun and its rivalry with piltover. He wants Zaun's slums to get better ("Zauns future is about to get brighter"), not just to leave them. Thats why he taunts Vi, who left the slums to selfishly lead a better life. He obviously has some connections to nicer areas of Zaun - if you look at the last page, the place where he fixes his Z-Drive is exceptionally nice. But he returns to the slums because thats his home, and he doesnt want to leave the other kids helpless.

GreenLore3 votes

You talk about how they should make just simply a champion and turn them black. Well then what speaks against making the time-traveler/street-punk black?

They didn't think "oh he is a lawless street punk so he must be black",they simply tried out different things for his design and thought that black looked better on him,so they left it that way.

Not to mention that Ekko isn't our first black champion...

ForPortal1 votes

{quoted}

They didn't think "oh he is a lawless street punk so he must be black",

Have you seen something from the developers to that effect, or are you just assuming? If it's true, it's true, but I'd be surprised.

GreenLore3 votes

have you seen the number of concepts they went through?There was a bunch of them and the idea of him being black basically came pretty early,then came the idea of a more street-punk kind thing.

http://apollo-na-uploads.s3.amazonaws.com/1432254145/conceptTimeline.jpg

Also you say that Ekko is a kid who hates cops,but who says that?Ekko attacked a piltovian who killed his friend,that was no cop,that was a dude from a different city state who shot his friend.

ForPortal1 votes

{quoted}

have you seen the number of concepts they went through?There was a bunch of them and the idea of him being black basically came pretty early,then came the idea of a more street-punk kind thing.

http://apollo-na-uploads.s3.amazonaws.com/1432254145/conceptTimeline.jpg

I had not seen that, but it does not contradict my basic point. "IF lawless street punk THEN black" and "IF black THEN lawless street punk" are two sides of the same coin - the association of being black with being a lawless street punk.

Also you say that Ekko is a kid who hates cops,but who says that?

I was going by his in-game taunts vs. Caitlyn and Vi.

GreenLore1 votes

{quoted}

I was going by his in-game taunts vs. Caitlyn and Vi.

Which is because of personal reasons and not because caitlyn is a cop. Caitlyn is the cop of a different city and he dislikes her,because she is now Vis partner and Ekko probably sees Caitlyn as the reason why VI won't come back to Zaun.

lolipopevelynn1 votes

{quoted}

have you seen the number of concepts they went through?There was a bunch of them and the idea of him being black basically came pretty early,then came the idea of a more street-punk kind thing.

http://apollo-na-uploads.s3.amazonaws.com/1432254145/conceptTimeline.jpg

Also you say that Ekko is a kid who hates cops,but who says that?Ekko attacked a piltovian who killed his friend,that was no cop,that was a dude from a different city state who shot his friend.

cait is a cop and he doesnt like cait. this is evident in his VO. vi is also a cop and he calls vi a "sellout"

also, to all the comments about ekko being a stereo typical black gangster, i dont agree with that. ekko is is closer to a freedom fighter leader who breaks the law in order to better the future of zaun. i was just making fun of the comic for its horrible story line/plot and lazy writing. i do like ekkos overall character, the comic just didnt do well in highlighting it imo.

Hello I am Bird2 votes

He calls Vi a sellout because Vi was his old friend and went to Piltover for a better life.

lolipopevelynn1 votes

{quoted}

have you seen the number of concepts they went through?There was a bunch of them and the idea of him being black basically came pretty early,then came the idea of a more street-punk kind thing.

http://apollo-na-uploads.s3.amazonaws.com/1432254145/conceptTimeline.jpg

Also you say that Ekko is a kid who hates cops,but who says that?Ekko attacked a piltovian who killed his friend,that was no cop,that was a dude from a different city state who shot his friend.

i see they tried to make him a yordle at one point. thank God they didnt make him into a yordle.

ChaoticPinecone7 votes

What? Reread the comic.

Ekko triggers a specific point in time to keep rewinding back to when he realizes something is wrong. Ekko runs past a whistling guy to go to his friend, who is dying. Dying kid says "i feel tired. i want to sleep". Ekko asks who did it. Dying kid says a whistling man shot him. Ekko remembers the guy he ran past, so he rewinds again. He confronts the Whistler this time, attacking him but damaging his Z-Drive. it rewinds him one last time.

without any rewinds, Ekko decides to get to his friend. kid says "i feel tired. i want to sleep". Ekko says "its okay. everything will be better when you wake".

Conncept3 votes

That doesn't change that Ekko's intention was to kill the whistling man for defending himself, that he was unsuccessful is no merit in favor of his moral character.

ChaoticPinecone8 votes

there are two points to be made here:

In the United States, what Whister did was still illegal. you are not allowed to use deadly force to protect yourself unless its a response to deadly force or immediate bodily harm, and in some states it has to be your last option (no chance to run or proceed with a non-deadly option). "he had what was coming to him" will still land you in prison with 2nd degree murder. There is no evidence that Whistler was in any danger - strolling along, whistling as he goes after he shot a guy shows he wasnt in fear of the streets of Zaun.

Ekko had to make a choice - revenge or be at his dying friends side. he chose the latter, though he was fully capable of choosing the former. he would not be unsuccessful in his revenge if he decided to seek it, but he knew he would be unsuccessful in saving his friend. he consciously made the decision not to seek revenge, running past the Whistler one last time (knowing full well that Whistler shot his friend) to get to his friend.

the decisions you make define you as a person. you can have all the best thoughts in your head, but if you act opposite to them you still arent a moral character. Ekko isnt perfect; he has impulses for both loyalty and vengeance. but when he can only choose one, he chooses loyalty. THATS his merit. he makes the honorable decision when push comes to shove. His friend was going to die anyway, but those last 60 seconds by his side were more important to him than taking revenge on the person who did it.

Zirzon2 votes

I also wonder if the kid was even trying to steal from the man in the first place! When Ekko asks who did it, the kid says he doesn't know, and only heard the man whistling. If he was scoping the man out to rob, couldn't he have described him better? Therefore, this sounds like it could've been straight up, unprovoked murder!

Conncept4 votes

Your first point is your own assumption, and a completely misinformed one at that. There is no federal law stating any such thing, because according to the constitution, such laws fall under the rights of the state governments, so if any such law did exist, it would be declared null and void as being unconstitutional. What we do have are state laws concerning the issue, and they vary from state to state, and in fact, half the states have laws specifically stating that you are permitted to defend your person, property, and those around you from any amount of harm to the point of permitting deadly force. And the majority of the remainder allow for use of deadly force, barring you have no other means of defense or escape. And its a statistical fact that those states have both lower crime and lower rates of fatalities from gun violence.

And it doesn't matter if Whistler was in any real danger for two reasons. First he was dealing with an unknown, as soon as he perceived any amount of danger he had the right to defend himself, and his perception were more than reasonable considering the kid was trying to steal a firearm off him, that the kid could have immediately used on him. Was the whistler supposed to wait to see if the kid had a weapon or intended to use his, in which case, he would have been the one shot and killed? That is a completely ridiculous expectation of someone who is in a situation where they may lose their life to a mere moments hesitation.

Second, he did not instigate the situation, to say whistler is responsible is victim blaming, the person responsible for the danger, and therefore the end result of that danger, was the kid. By stealing he directly and deliberately created the situation in which the confrontation involving the firearm was a possibility. And while it is sad that he suffered consequences much heavier than fit his crime, those consequences are still his own fault, he had the first opportunity, ability, and principle responsibility to prevent what happened, and he didn't. Ideally he should have only suffered a consequence befitting his crime, but the only way such 'fairness' of punishment befitting crime, is within a system of law and order, which didn't apply because the kid was working outside that system. If we can say anyone killed anyone, that kid killed himself; or one could make the argument that, being a child, those responsible for him did so, in this case being Ekko.

And that isn't what happened in the comic from what I saw, his Z-Drive was damaged by the firearm, forcing Ekko to make that decision. Had his ZDrive not been damaged and he had just been able to kill the man quickly, Ekko appeared to have every intention of killing the whistler just for defending himself against his friend.

By decision or intention, Ekko appears to be nothing but a selfish violent thug who won't accept or deal with the consequences of his actions, not unlike real world gang members. He may be sentimental and caring towards his own, but doing what is right by those you care for and no one else is a bare pittance of morality.

ChaoticPinecone3 votes

you are completely wrong on the first point. I agree that there is no federal law dictating this, because criminal codes are the states jurisdiction. However, my statement is correct because no state allows the use of deadly force unless you are immediately threatened with the use of deadly force or serious bodily harm against you. Its not an assumption. its a fact. if you wish to disprove me, please name me the state that allows the use of deadly force in response to anything less than a perceived threat to your body. No state would allow you to shoot a robber that poses no physical threat.

The "stand your ground" states allow the use of deadly force in any situation you are threatened with deadly force or serious bodily harm. The ones without the "stand your ground" laws allow the use of deadly force only when you are threatened with deadly force or serious bodily harm, and there is no reasonable alternative available to ensure your safety.

Theres a slight exception inside your home, but thats irrelevant to the comic.

At the moment of the shooting, its hard to explain what would happen (legally) and what went down (in the comic). We just dont know.

But we do know how Whistler responds after he shoots the kid. You are correct - it doesnt matter if Whistler was in any real danger or not. However, his perception matters a lot - "he got what was coming to him" is different from "i thought he was going to hurt me". It also has to be a reasonable perception - Whister mentioned that the kid was trying to "lift" something off him and thats why he shot him; the kid didnt threaten Whistler to provoke the shooting. Finally, whistling as he was walking away after shooting the kid shows extreme amounts of disregard for human life, as well as his emotional state at the time; nonchalantly whistling as he was calmly walking away is different from freaking out and running away.

Its funny you mention victim blaming, because the general sentiment of victim blaming is "They got what they deserved" or "they were asking for it". It seems to me you are victim-blaming the kid; "those consequences are still his own fault, he had the first opportunity, ability, and principle responsibility to prevent what happened, and he didn't" is EXACTLY what victim-blaming is. Who is the victim in the story - Whistler, who gets to walk away, or the kid, who is dead?

i dont know where you got the idea that the kid was working outside the system of law. He was working in the system of law, just on the criminal side. If he got caught, he would go to jail (petty theft is still a misdemeanor, so < 1 year in jail). Thats still working in the system of the law - the law would punish the kid as it saw fit. Whistler was working outside of the law - killing someone over theft is VIGILANTE JUSTICE. Whistler was enacting his own justice, not waiting for the system.

Ekko, in the reality where he seeks vengence, was also operating in outside the system of law. But as i keep saying, on his last rewind, he decided not to seek vengence. .

Lastly, Ekko was hardly forced to make a decision. He was given an ultimatum. We saw how easily he sought his revenge on Whistler before his Z Drive went off for the last time. But we also saw the kid, dying alone. Ekko, in his second to last run, had every intention of killing the Whistler. But in his last run - the one that actually counts, the one that cant be altered by his time machine, the one that everybody will remember - he doesnt kill Whistler. He chooses to be with his friend.

Again. Intentions dont mean anything if you dont act on them. You can have great intentions, but ignore them. You can have bad temptations, but ignore them.

(and before you say he killed Whistler and then joined his friend, it took him 90+ attempts to get to his friend in 3 minutes. His friend was always dead by the 4 minute mark.)

Ebonmaw Dragon4 votes

{quoted}

you are completely wrong on the first point. I agree that there is no federal law dictating this, because criminal codes are the states jurisdiction. However, my statement is correct because no state allows the use of deadly force unless you are immediately threatened with the use of deadly force or serious bodily harm against you.

Come on, we are talking about Zaun, not a random state from the Earth. Zaun is a dangerous and corrupt place... almost lawless if you ask me, that is why it has so many criminals.

If someone steals something from you, no one cares. If someone kidnaps you and uses you for experiments, no one cares. If someone kills you, no one cares.

Both, the boy and the man, knew that the law was not going to punish them for what they did.

lolipopevelynn1 votes

{quoted}

you are completely wrong on the first point. I agree that there is no federal law dictating this, because criminal codes are the states jurisdiction. However, my statement is correct because no state allows the use of deadly force unless you are immediately threatened with the use of deadly force or serious bodily harm against you. Its not an assumption. its a fact. if you wish to disprove me, please name me the state that allows the use of deadly force in response to anything less than a perceived threat to your body. No state would allow you to shoot a robber that poses no physical threat.

The "stand your ground" states allow the use of deadly force in any situation you are threatened with deadly force or serious bodily harm. The ones without the "stand your ground" laws allow the use of deadly force only when you are threatened with deadly force or serious bodily harm, and there is no reasonable alternative available to ensure your safety.

Theres a slight exception inside your home, but thats irrelevant to the comic.

At the moment of the shooting, its hard to explain what would happen (legally) and what went down (in the comic). We just dont know.

But we do know how Whistler responds after he shoots the kid. You are correct - it doesnt matter if Whistler was in any real danger or not. However, his perception matters a lot - "he got what was coming to him" is different from "i thought he was going to hurt me". It also has to be a reasonable perception - Whister mentioned that the kid was trying to "lift" something off him and thats why he shot him; the kid didnt threaten Whistler to provoke the shooting. Finally, whistling as he was walking away after shooting the kid shows extreme amounts of disregard for human life, as well as his emotional state at the time; nonchalantly whistling as he was calmly walking away is different from freaking out and running away.

Its funny you mention victim blaming, because the general sentiment of victim blaming is "They got what they deserved" or "they were asking for it". It seems to me you are victim-blaming the kid; "those consequences are still his own fault, he had the first opportunity, ability, and principle responsibility to prevent what happened, and he didn't" is EXACTLY what victim-blaming is. Who is the victim in the story - Whistler, who gets to walk away, or the kid, who is dead?

i dont know where you got the idea that the kid was working outside the system of law. He was working in the system of law, just on the criminal side. If he got caught, he would go to jail (petty theft is still a misdemeanor, so < 1 year in jail). Thats still working in the system of the law - the law would punish the kid as it saw fit. Whistler was working outside of the law - killing someone over theft is VIGILANTE JUSTICE. Whistler was enacting his own justice, not waiting for the system.

Ekko, in the reality where he seeks vengence, was also operating in outside the system of law. But as i keep saying, on his last rewind, he decided not to seek vengence. .

Lastly, Ekko was hardly forced to make a decision. He was given an ultimatum. We saw how easily he sought his revenge on Whistler before his Z Drive went off for the last time. But we also saw the kid, dying alone. Ekko, in his second to last run, had every intention of killing the Whistler. But in his last run - the one that actually counts, the one that cant be altered by his time machine, the one that everybody will remember - he doesnt kill Whistler. He chooses to be with his friend.

Again. Intentions dont mean anything if you dont act on them. You can have great intentions, but ignore them. You can have bad temptations, but ignore them.

(and before you say he killed Whistler and then joined his friend, it took him 90+ attempts to get to his friend in 3 minutes. His friend was always dead by the 4 minute mark.)

why the hell do you keep bringing up US laws? not only is zaun nothing like america, but it is 100% lawless... the only ones keeping it in check is cait and vi who are from piltover.

Chromatic Eagle1 votes

He was trying to steal a gun. Would you let someone steal a gun from you?

ChaoticPinecone1 votes

you dont need to kill to prevent a theft.

Conncept1 votes

Why do I have to instruct you? Can you not learn for yourself? Incapable of reading or even doing a google search?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand-your-ground_law

They are recent laws, but if you look up their history, courts have treated most self defense cases with similar precendence since the inception of our country, with the further you go back more and more states considering it implied under the right to bear arms. State lawmakers just took the opportunity to move them from precedence to practical law to avoid any more things like the Ferguson trial.

And in those laws "the individual honestly and reasonably believes that the use of deadly force is necessary to prevent the imminent death, great bodily harm, or sexual assault of himself or another individual."

Did you notice that the reasons for using deadly force do not end with preventing of imminent death? You are ONLY required in the majority of states, to have a reasonable perception of danger, any danger, in order to use deadly force, you do not have to be in an equal amount of danger, you are permitted to protect yourself from any amount of danger by any means you have available to you, and are not required to run instead of defending yourself should that be an option.

Try educating yourself instead of enforcing your opinion as law. You are wrong, you have even been wrong, for the hundreds of years that self defense was treated as such prior to these laws being formally adopted. This is a modern contrivance that didn't even require a law for our more practical predecessors, it was accepted as common sense, no one should be required to allow a person to endanger their life to the greatest degree, before being able to defend themselves or those around them.

And don't childishly put words in my mouth, I never said he 'got what was coming to him', that implies he had morally done something equal to what happened to him, which you know just as well as I, that I specifically denied. He did nothing to deserve being shot. What I said, was that what happened to him was the direct result of a casual/effect relationship which he, before and more than anyone else, had the responsibility and the means to prevent, save perhaps the person who should have been taking care of him, Ekko. Right had nothing to do with it one way or the other, the situation itself was wrong, and someone had to suffer the consequence, and the kid drew the short straw.

In addition to that, there is no logical connection between who did and did not suffer consequences and who was the victim. You are appealing to emotion because you do not have any means to back up your claim in any logical manner. There is a difference between being a victim and victimization, one was the target, the victim, of theft from another person. The other suffered the consequences of that theft. However, the kid was not 'the victim' of the whistler because it was not the whistlers intention to kill him, it was not his intention to have any victim at all, and had the kid never attempted his robbery, the whistler would have walked home with that gun in his coat without harming a single soul. Had the kid not come across the whistler though, he would have presumable found another person to rob, another victim.

And what on nonsense are you going off about? You claim that intentions matter with your argument? Okay, lets observe their intentions. The kids intention was to steal something which did not belong to him and he had not earned, and which in his hands, would have been dangerous, potentially to the point of death, for the man he was stealing it from. The mans intention, were simply to prevent his death and theft of his property, and he chose to do so by the means which would most surely assure his safety. So once again, it comes down to that harm, if intended by anyone, was intended by the kid, and the situation was his fault regardless of the consequences or how fitting that consequence was for his actions.

ChaoticPinecone1 votes

lol. i shall try for one last time to educate your ignorance.

stand your ground STILL ONLY ALLOWS YOU TO KILL WHEN YOUR LIFE IS IN DANGER. ive said that before in this thread. In the states without the stand your ground laws, you are not allowed to kill unless 2 things happen - your life is in danger and you have no other reasonable option.

What stand your ground laws do - if your life is in danger but you can run away, the SYG states allow you to defend yourself with deadly force instead of running.

The problem is you cant find a state that allows you to use deadly force for petty theft - im asking you to find one because I KNOW THERE ISNT ONE THERE. im not going to be able to find something that doesnt exist.


Here - want some text examples? read Model Penal Code 3.04:

(b) The use of deadly force is not justifiable under this Section unless the actor believes that such force is necessary to protect himself against death, serious bodily injury, kidnaping or sexual intercourse compelled by force or threat; nor is it justifiable if:

(i) omitted for relevancy

(ii) the actor knows that he can avoid the necessity of using such force with complete safety by retreating or by surrendering possession of a thing to a person asserting a claim of right thereto or by complying with a demand that he abstain from any action that he has no duty to take,


you apparently get wound up and start insulting me for no reason. im not putting words in your mouth - "HE GOT WHAT WAS COMING TO HIM" whats what ** Whister** said to ekko.

and you responded with

"And while it is sad that he suffered consequences much heavier than fit his crime, those consequences are still his own fault, he had the first opportunity, ability, and principle responsibility to prevent what happened, and he didn't."

Under that logic, any time you take an action, the consequences are your fault. If someone robs you, thats your fault since you could have stayed at home.


im actually not appealing to emotion in anything. The definition of the victim is fluid and can change.

Lets use a large state like NY - NY penal law, Article 35-Section 35.15(b). Simply put:

A threatens B during robbery with a knife. B pulls his own on A. A backs off. B would not be justified in threatening A, and if he does, A would actually have the defense of 'self defense' while B does not.

the "initial victim" can become the aggressor, and the "initial aggressor" can become the victim.


look whose making up random stuff now. Man thought he was going to die?

I want you to experience a event that threatens your life. A real one where you honestly thought you would die. one that makes you shake. one that makes you cry. one that makes snot run out of your nose and your stomach hurt.

are you going to be walking away from that, whistling a tune? Ask yourself that before wondering if Whister thought he was going to die, or if he did it because the "kid tried to lift (this) from me".

Conncept1 votes

Thank-you for reiterating what I already said, and even quoting exactly what I already quoted, with your own addendum of course, the law does not say 'serious bodily harm', it just stated bodily harm, nice attempt at saving face though, too bad you had to lie to do it.

I have never once stated that you don't have to be perceive any danger to exercise the use of lethal force, I stated you do not have to perceive a life threatening level of danger to do so. The law blatantly states 'bodily injury', it doesn't matter if it is the danger of getting a being bruised and beaten or getting shot in the face, if you are in danger of bodily injury, or even non-bodily injuries in the case of rape and molestation, you are permitted to use deadly force.

And you want a list of states that allow the use of deadly force against theft? Okay.

Alabama Alaska Arizona Florida Georgia Indiana Kansas Kentucky Louisiana Michigan Mississippi Montana Nevada New Hampshire North Carolina Oklahoma Pennsylvania South Carolina South Dakota Tennessee Texas Utah West Virginia

The laws of these states clearly state that committing a crime is already a reasonable expectation of violence, and that the citizen is not required to prove reason, the courts is required to prove otherwise. And there are far more on top of that whose only stipulation is that you perceive danger and have no reasonable and safe method for escape, regardless of what the criminal is doing. Sorry, but if you believe they have a gun, or are going for a gun, like the kid was in the comic, you have no 'safe' method of escape, it is a ranged weapon which even at a small caliber can easily penetrate most common materials. Life is not an action movie, you cannot dodge bullets, the enemy is not going to conveniently fire at your feet or the wall behind you, and you cannot find cover behind plywood benches or sheetrock and 2x4 walls, anything save the walls of a brick or steel building will most likely be pierced by deadly gun fire, and you will die from running away or struggling.

Okay, for a lie like you just attempted to pull in your claims of responsibility vs consequences, you must be a lawyer, albeit a poor one. Whistler stated the kid got what was coming to him not for trying to steal from him, but specifically for trying to steal a firearm off his person, with which the kid could have killed him. In the whistlers eyes, he perceived someone trying to kill him, and the reason he perceived that, was because of the kids actions. And you're dang right, if someone tries to kill me, and they die doing it, I will logically conclude that they got what was coming to them by dying whilst attempting to commit murder. We can say that the kid didn't 'get what was coming to him' because we speak from a third person perspective, the whistler has no such perspective, nor would any person defending their self.

And for your final, yeah I have looked death in the eye, multiple times actually. I grew up under circumstances where you had to do things like hunting and fishing and the type of dirty work a prissy like you would never consider, just to survive. And such work came with multiple life threatening experiences, and you know what you do after them if you're healthy? You laugh, you go into shock, you grow numb, and you laugh. I haven't had a single family outing where the story hasn't come up of the time me and my brother were nearly buried alive from a rockslide on the shore of glacier bay, we got away by jumping in to the water, which also nearly killed us, since glacier bays water is actually well below freezing point, and causes hypothermia and seizing in seconds. Its an interesting thing, but when doctors were asked which medical show was most like the real thing, they said Scrubs. Don't know if you are familiar with it, but its a comedy that frequently makes lite of death of every kind, because that is how a sane person handles experiences like that, they do not brood they learn to laugh and blow it off, or they don't survive long.

ChaoticPinecone1 votes

you listed states. give me the caselaw and the penal code - i gave you the relevant law (directly quoted and everthing), you just game me a list of states. Killing in a theft is not allowed, except for very few, limited exceptions.

and i stopped reading after you started insulting me. You, my friend, start attacking the other person when you are wrong. You can call me whatever you want. doesnt help your argument.

dont bother responding unless you are willing to have an intelligent discussion.

GreenLore1 votes

The thing is that the whistling man was blatantly lying when he said he defended himself.

How i know that?Because Ajuna didn't even see the whistling man,Ajuna said in his last moments that he only heard the man who shot him whistling and that he couldn't see him,if he tried to rob him,then he would have seen him obviously(because trying to steal from someone without looking at them is pretty much a really dumb idea).

When the whistling man said that Ajuna was trying to steal his gun,he was definetly lying,its just a cheap trick to surprise your enemy.

The whistling man just going on as if nothing happened after he killed a kid(even if it was in self defense) is also saying a lot about him as a person....

ForPortal1 votes

{quoted}

The thing is that the whistling man was blatantly lying when he said he defended himself.

How i know that?Because Ajuna didn't even see the whistling man,Ajuna said in his last moments that he only heard the man who shot him whistling and that he couldn't see him,if he tried to rob him,then he would have seen him obviously(because trying to steal from someone without looking at them is pretty much a really dumb idea).

Ajuna didn't say he didn't see him, he said he didn't know who shot him, only that he heard him whistling. And trying to steal from someone you don't recognise on sight is a lot smarter than trying to steal from someone who you recognise (and therefore probably recognises you).

GreenLore1 votes

Ajuna could have at least described that guy.

I mean seriously if you steal from someone you should check the person out before(how else would you know where the person keeps his stuff?If you just grab into a random pocket,chances are you are risking getting caught for nothing) and even if you don't you'll see that person the moment you come close to them when you try to steal from them,he could have at least said something about his clothing and all.

Fried Noob5 votes

One, the whistling man survives the night. Ekko used his last rewind to be with his friend for his last moments instead of seeking revenge. Two, Zaun is, as you said, a dangerous place that most Pilties (love that word) would avoid, especially at night. Unless they had some shady dealings to do there, in which case they would go at night to minimize the chance that they are recognized by another Piltie. Third, from what I can tell, Ekko's gang is like a family. They are all brother and sister. If someone killed my brother, I would seek vengeance, regardless of if I was in a gang or not.

FreshMeat7074 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hallows Evelynn,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=oI1AYAh0,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-05-22T00:26:03.987+0000)

next thing you know a black kid comes out of no where and kills the poor whistler for defending himself against a mugging. "you dare defend yourself against a mugging?!?!? I KEEL YOU!"

He killed a little kid. Then as soon as Ekko confronts him about it he tries to shoot him ON THE SPOT, NO QUESTIONS ASKED. He deserves a little more than what happened to him.

lolipopevelynn2 votes

{quoted}

He killed a little kid. Then as soon as Ekko confronts him about it he tries to shoot him ON THE SPOT, NO QUESTIONS ASKED. He deserves a little more than what happened to him.

you need to keep in mind that this happened in zaun, a place where "kids" like jinx exist. zaunite kids are not kids, most are psycho murderers. zaun is like a orderless noxus tbh. in alot of ways its actually worse than noxus.

so dont think of "kids" in zaun as normal kids. they are FAR from that. if a kid tries to rob you in zaun you have no idea if that "kid" is a jinx who will kill you just for the laughs and then take your stuff or a kid who is just trying to rob you but mean you no harm. would u honestly take the chance?

FreshMeat7071 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hallows Evelynn,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=oI1AYAh0,comment-id=000c0000,timestamp=2015-05-23T01:33:14.241+0000)

you need to keep in mind that this happened in zaun, a place where "kids" like jinx exist. zaunite kids are not kids, most are psycho murderers. zaun is like a orderless noxus tbh. in alot of ways its actually worse than noxus.

so dont think of "kids" in zaun as normal kids. they are FAR from that. if a kid tries to rob you in zaun you have no idea if that "kid" is a jinx who will kill you just for the laughs and then take your stuff or a kid who is just trying to rob you but mean you no harm. would u honestly take the chance?

True, but it seems like you're actually ONLY thinking of Jinx in this case. If you go back to he comic, Ekko probably would have mugged the guys right there if he was more like Jinx. But keep in mind, the kid that Ekko saved was unarmed. Around the dying boy, there was nothing near his reach that could have been use as a weapon, and i highly doubt that a boy that young and small would try to rob a grown man with only his fists.

Then, when Ekko went back to punish the rude gentleman, he didnt do it because, "This guy's an asshole, lemme wipe him out real quick." He did it because there was no time left to do anything else, and he did kill the guy to avenge his friend. Ekko said it himself: "I sent him out to get food. He only wanted attention. I wasn't even hungry." It was Ekko's fault his friend was going to die, no matter what route he took to get to him, it would always end the same. Ekko felt like he had to take responsibility somehow. He avenged the death of a child who would die on the streets of Zaun. And though, yes, i will admit, it does sort of paint him like a murderer, he did it because there was no other option, not enough time to save his friend. If you were approached by the same situation, would you the boy's killer walk away without a price?

And sorry for the huge mouthful, i tend to go overboard. But I just thought of another question to ask that might raise a level of suspicion:

What was a man from Piltover doing in a place like Zaun???

lolipopevelynn1 votes

{quoted}

True, but it seems like you're actually ONLY thinking of Jinx in this case. If you go back to he comic, Ekko probably would have mugged the guys right there if he was more like Jinx. But keep in mind, the kid that Ekko saved was unarmed. Around the dying boy, there was nothing near his reach that could have been use as a weapon, and i highly doubt that a boy that young and small would try to rob a grown man with only his fists.

Then, when Ekko went back to punish the rude gentleman, he didnt do it because, "This guy's an asshole, lemme wipe him out real quick." He did it because there was no time left to do anything else, and he did kill the guy to avenge his friend. Ekko said it himself: "I sent him out to get food. He only wanted attention. I wasn't even hungry." It was Ekko's fault his friend was going to die, no matter what route he took to get to him, it would always end the same. Ekko felt like he had to take responsibility somehow. He avenged the death of a child who would die on the streets of Zaun. And though, yes, i will admit, it does sort of paint him like a murderer, he did it because there was no other option, not enough time to save his friend. If you were approached by the same situation, would you the boy's killer walk away without a price?

And sorry for the huge mouthful, i tend to go overboard. But I just thought of another question to ask that might raise a level of suspicion:

What was a man from Piltover doing in a place like Zaun???

dude, janna, vi, and ekko are probally the only exception to "good" people in zaun. everyone else are kidnappers and murderers. viktor, mundo, singed, twitch are all the current representatives of zaun and its why ekko hates them because they all give zaun a bad name.

qetzel2 votes

Do you really believe that the boy tried to steal a gun from him? That sounded like he was trying to distract Ekko and get the jump on him, which would have worked if he hadn't hit the Z-Drive.

The man had dark business in Zaun. Dark business indeed.

lolipopevelynn6 votes

{quoted}

Do you really believe that the boy tried to steal a gun from him? That sounded like he was trying to distract Ekko and get the jump on him, which would have worked if he hadn't hit the Z-Drive.

The man had dark business in Zaun. Dark business indeed.

EVERYONE in zaun steals. even janna, who is probally the kindest person in league next to sona, stole from people in zaun when she was younger. its just what they do.

Wakamune2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hallows Evelynn,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=oI1AYAh0,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2015-05-22T10:12:32.005+0000)

EVERYONE in zaun steals. even janna, who is probally the kindest person in league next to sona, stole from people in zaun when she was younger. its just what they do.

More like it's their only choice or idea of surviving available to them, to be specific.

manbearswine2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hallows Evelynn,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=oI1AYAh0,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2015-05-22T10:12:32.005+0000)

even janna, who is probally the kindest person in league next to sona,

I don't buy it,they are evil I tell you.

EVIL

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