@Riot How successful do you guys consider Urgot's rework now that he's been out for a bit?

Eternal791·Oct 3, 2017·19 votes·10,577 views

Seems pretty successful in many ways to me, but I was curious how well received he is overall and how many goals were met with his rework.

128 Comments

RiotReav3Oct 4, 201713 votes

Overall we consider Urgot and very successful VGU. We were never targeting broad appeal for Urgot so we weren't expecting some insane playrate for him like we were for a Champion with a broad theme like Warwick. We were targeting Urgot as a solid Niche pick wit ha small but dedicated player base, much bigger than pre-rework Urgot but still small.

We also think he is a much more cohesive champion now and that his Art, Narrative and Gameplay come together to form a cohesive and unique champion.

We may do some small changes to his kit in the future just to give him a bit more reliability, though can't say when LGP will get to that and if they will find changes they want to ship. Overall we are very happy with the end results of Urgot

Sahn UzalOct 4, 20175 votes

Out of curiousity, what makes Warwick's theme so much broader than Urgot's?

RiotReav3Oct 4, 201714 votes

Werewolfs are very popular and understandable so when players see Warwick they get it. Many of our very broad champions have this. Urgots theme as a walking spider tank executioner isn't as understandable or relatable to as many people. Some people will really dig it and love it, but that isn't ever going to be as broad as a Werewolf theme.

If you look at a lot of the highest played champions they have clear and understandable themes that people understand even before playing LoL. I'll list some of them below. Note that these arn't what they actually always manifest as in game, but it is what there high level theme is. For example Vayne is the vampire hunter theme even if in the lore she doesn't hunt vampires.

Yasuo - Samurai Lee Sin - Blind Monk/Martial Artist Vayne - Vampire Hunter Ezreal - Anime Boy who inherits great power Lucian - Exorcist/Demon Hunter Ahri - Kitsune Garen - White Knight Darius - Evil Knight

These are just a few, but they all have broad understandable themes that are popular outside of LoL.

Malicious MetalOct 4, 20175 votes

{quoted}

Darius - Evil Knight

I see him more than gruff general Axeman than a knight. Mordekaiser seems to be more akin to the eeeeeevil knight archetype.

RiotReav3Oct 4, 201710 votes

Agreed, I don;t really mean evil like Morde, more like how you have the good guy knight and the bad guy knight archetype. Morde is much more of the Death Knight archetype.

Malicious MetalOct 4, 20175 votes

Garen and Darius are basically just two sides of the same coin, depending on what moral alignment one prefers.^^

RiotKindlejackOct 5, 20176 votes

http://static.starcitygames.com/sales/cardscans/MTG/3ED/en/nonfoil/WhiteKnight.jpg

https://magiccards.info/scans/en/5e/5.jpg

RalanrOct 5, 20175 votes

Darius feels more like "Knight in Sour Armor" vs Garen's "Knight in shining armor".

DeathBurstOct 5, 20172 votes

Very well said. And let's be honest here, I may be a Garen Main, but Darius's trope is much better.

Valor BotOct 5, 20173 votes

How so? I mean I know Darius is a bit more modern than Garen, but I'd say that at least on a base level, both of their archetypes have appeal in their own right (some people just prefer being the good knight and others the bad knight). Personally I resonate much more with Garen's theme and aesthetic than Darius's.

DeathBurstOct 5, 20172 votes

I don't know, the recent lore update was nice, but apart from that, the good knight in shining armor is just too cliché for my liking. It's naive, and unrealistic, and borderline stupid at some times. And to top it all, it has a tendency to turn into fanaticism that I totally despise. THE most common story arc for Fallen Paladins is pushing your ideals to the extreme and reaching some absurd conclusion. And even the recent lore update seems to be pushing Garen in this direction, with conflict between the ideals he want to uphold and his love for his sister, and will he or won't he turn fanatic? Bleeh. At least it's less cliché than before (even if it has been done to death), and it makes me love Garen a bit more, but on the other hand, it makes me love Demacia even less, because they really start to appear as fanatics, much more than in the old pre-retcon lore...

I much prefer a cynical but pragmatic man like Darius. The world is not Black and White, it's full of Greys, yadda yadda.

(Aesthetic I don't really care either way, I'm speaking from a purely moral/philosophical point of view.)

HalfTangibleOct 5, 20172 votes

The "pragmatic cynic" has been done to death as well, especially in the modern era.

I like Darius, I like Garen. But to say either of them is more original than the other is tbh laughable.

HalfTangibleOct 5, 20172 votes

There's no such thing as a good or bad trope, only how it's used. Your preference for Darius is just that, a preference.

And frankly, I prefer the 'good is good and that's all I need to know' types like Garen over the 'evil is totally okay because woe betide me' that black knights like Darius pull.

DeathBurstOct 6, 20172 votes

There are over-used tropes that are hard to pull off anything interesting from, or that even feed toxic stereotypes, and there are tropes that consistently deliver a compelling and nuanced story. There are objectively good and bad tropes.

Sure, there is a lot of subjective stuff about which one you prefer among two good tropes, but saying there aren't bad tropes is preposterous.

Now enough of that general stuff and let's come back, to Garen and Darius. Sure, I'm not claiming Darius's trope is 100% objectively better.

But Darius is absolutely not "evil is totally okay because" nothing. Here, let me link you the trope Ralanr was referencing: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KnightInSourArmor Nothing evil about it. If you read the recently released Darius comic too, you can see, nothing evil. Darius philosophy and moral ideals are questionable (and that's what makes it interesting), but he stands and fights for them, and he's definitely not an evil character.

On the other hand, "good is good and that's all I need to know" (and here I agree with you that it's what Garen is about) is incredibly simple, boring, and uninteresting. The only good that comes out of this trope is at the borders, when its limits are tested, and its contradictions show up. But it's hardly part of the trope anymore, whereas the conflicts and contradictions are built-in for the Sour Armour trope. To be fair to Garen, he's a much older character than Darius, and it shows in his backstory, it's not as well designed, integrated, etc. The recent update is starting to explore the interesting limits of the trope, and I have reasonable hopes that Garen will develop into as interesting of a character as Darius is.

But currently, as the lore stands right now? Darius has the better trope, and I stand by it.

(Also, and I'll grant you that this is subjective territory, one of the limits of "good is good" that is commonly explored is how it can degrade into fanaticism, and I absolutely despise fanatics, so I have a hard time appreciating this kind of story and relating to this kind of characters. I'm glad that they took the opposite road with Garen, where his society is fanatic, and he is the one having second thoughts.)

BLACK REALM GODOct 5, 20173 votes

great comparison using mtg cards. i have so many copies of those two cards because i run a first strike duo tone deck.

RiotKindlejackOct 5, 20177 votes

I feel like MtG is the Simpsons of games, they've pretty much done it all!

DeathBurstOct 5, 20171 votes

+1 for M:tG reference.

Is Magic actually popular at Riot? I saw Scarizard posting about it too, recently ^^

RiotKindlejackOct 5, 20174 votes

Oh yeah, as is tabletop wargames such as Warhammer 40k and Warmachine. Plus on a tuesday night it seems like every other conference room has a DnD session going on.

FlashnFuseOct 5, 20177 votes

I've never wanted to work at Riot more than I do right now XD

RiotKindlejackOct 5, 20174 votes

I moved half way around the world to work at a place full of fellow nerds. We are really lucky, so thank you for making it all possible!

FlashnFuseOct 5, 20171 votes

Do you think it will help my application if I say I'm an experienced DM in both the 3.5 and Pathfinder systems? [slayer-jinx-wink]

RiotKindlejackOct 6, 20172 votes

Yes.

DeathBurstOct 6, 20173 votes

Yes, but probably because being a DM shows competency in storytelling and communication skills. Not because of the specific systems you used.

RiotKindlejackOct 6, 20172 votes

You're correct, I should elaborate - showing that you are familiar with and enjoy a variety of game systems will always be a plus when applying for a job at a games company, at Riot in particular we believe it is crucial. How can you be player focused if you aren't playing games? As a concept artist I spend a huge amount of time keeping up with the cultural trends in design, fashion, storytelling etc. but as a game designer I am making sure if there's a game and people love it I have played it.

Right now I'm catching up on Planescape Torment, DA: Inquisition, Atelier Sophie and Picross Touch, while also playing Sonic Mania, Cuphead, The Last Guardian. Tabletop games I'm playing Red Flag, Legendary Encounters, Unfair plus some MtG: Commander, Pathfinder and 5th Edition. Obviously I love playing games, but there's an analytical side to all these activities which improves my ability to do my job!

I'm also looking forward to seeing Bladerunner and playing Divinity 2, as I'm sure they will both be really inspirational.

One last note, DeathBurs7 makes a really good point about storytelling and communication skills. All work at Riot is collaborative and effective communication is just as important (if not more so) as any craft skill. A lot of my time is spent telling stories and having arguments that lead to alignment around what a product could/should be so we can keep moving forward effectively. There's also a strong need to reach consensus where not everyone is happy but everyone is committed to a decision, and both those things come up a lot when playing tabletop rpgs.

Baron Von BanginOct 5, 20172 votes

Oh god, I love Adrian Smith's artwork. His work on all things Warhammer is phenomenal.

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/40k/images/1/1e/Horus_emperor_adrian_smith.png/revision/latest?cb=20130309224113

RiotKindlejackOct 5, 20173 votes

There's a huge amount of talent there and I've loved the 40k universe since I was 10. Fun fact - Mark Gibbons, an artist during 2nd/3rd edition also worked on WoW and LoL and currently we are lucky to have both Graham McNeill and Anthony Reynolds writing for us. I still feel like a total fanboy when I see them.

Baron Von BanginOct 5, 20171 votes

I knew Graham McNeil was working at Riot, you guys introduced him with a bit of fanfare and his presence has certainly been felt. I didn't know you guys scooped up Anthony Reynolds too, loved his work on the Word Bearers series.

Did Gibbons have a hand of the early designs in League? That would definitely give the early look of the game some crazy context!

RiotKindlejackOct 6, 20172 votes

He came on some time after the big boom of 2012 to work on foundations, helping to shape the Runeterra we know today. Bildgewater and Zaun in particular, which I think you can really feel!

AngrychickénOct 5, 20172 votes

You just made my day.

Valor BotOct 4, 20172 votes

Reav3, if you guys ever went into production on a Quinn VGU, what do you think would be some possible directions for her theme/archetype?

RiotReav3Oct 4, 201710 votes

Not sure but I do think her theme needs some major work. The whole scout thing by itself just isn't aspirational enough. Her art doesn't feel nearly as iconic as some of our newer VGUs or champs as well. She has some pretty cool things at her core though (The whole relationship with her and Valor for example) but I think everything else can be pushed some much further.

PlacentasOct 4, 20173 votes

You could always let us become Valor again. -winks with both eyes-

DeathBurstOct 5, 20172 votes

The whole scout thing by itself just isn't aspirational enough.

Really? Ranger/Scout is a class that exist in most tabletop RPG, you have very famous characters like Aragorn that live inside the trope. I'm skeptical about it not being aspirational enough.

KaeblenOct 5, 20172 votes

I think he means it's not specific enough.

A generalized Ranger could be a park ranger, or it could be Aragorn.

Quinn needs something to make sure she isn't the park ranger.

BLACK REALM GODOct 5, 20174 votes

i guess the thing to do would be to determine where she fits in best on the map and then go from there, but i do agree that there are A LOT of scouts type characters in the game already and so she's being crowded out as THE SCOUT.

ashe is the iconic archer, vayne has the crossbow as the vampire hunter, teemo is a scout, swain is a tactician and bird person, anivia is the bird, udyr is the form fighter, nidalee is the animorph...

so really the best thing about her as far as uniqueness goes is her homeland and her ability to train/talk to birds. nothing else stands out. maybe you could make her a pathfinder or a tracker. warwick kind of has werewolf hunting prey down, but you could change quinn up to show footsteps of her opponents kind of like how a hunter would use footprints and broken bush pathways to follow her quarry.

her bird could be re-imagined as a tool to flank with instead of a tool to use for cavalry engagements (since kled's the cavalry) and her blind could be reimagined as a tranquilizer maybe? idk.

CorvidOct 5, 20173 votes

I completely agree, cant wait to one day have valor back instead of taxi! ^.^

Edit: More content I love Quinn, shes my most played champion. I feel her theme of a scout is a bit diluted now, but her theme of being two champions in one is completely gone. She is QUINN AND VALOR, not just Quinn... Her relationship with Valor should be focused on should a rework ever come around.

Gameplay wise I have three problems. One: She only has two combat abilities with minimal skill expression or management. Two: Her new ult is boring. It is quite simply "press button for movement speed and pray you dont get hit by a minion". Three: She doesn't fill a role. Other champions can do everything she can do, just better.

My dream rework would play up the fact that she is two champions. Thats all attached too, not the blind, not skystrike. That is the true atrocity of her class update, removing valor and adding taxi.

Anyway, thanks for talking about quinn! i love to see riot acknowledge she exists when she's not op!

RiotReav3Oct 5, 20175 votes

We know she exists. We think she probably needs a full VGU at some point in order to put her in a great spot. Probably a ways off though as their are higher priority champions, at least for now.

Valor BotOct 5, 20173 votes

Thanks for being so transparent with us, Reav3. I was originally opposed to the idea of replacing Quinn’s falconer theme, but I think as long as their symbiotic relationship is kept intact and Valor plays a highly active role in her kit, this Demacian Raptor Knight concept would make for a pretty awesome rework direction:

https://cdna.artstation.com/p/assets/images/images/006/551/028/large/joon-ahn-eaglerider-wip-07-20170707-1600.jpg?1499445259

I guess one of the main challenges would be figuring out how to implement their visuals in game without making them look like a tank champion, since Valor would be so large. But I am mostly imagining Quinn as an aerial commander/scout who flies around on Valor and then descends upon her foes to strike them down from above (kind of like Daenerys from GoT).

[galio-happy]

RiotReav3Oct 6, 20176 votes

That sounds so amazing

IxtaliKingOct 6, 20173 votes

This would be absolutely amazing... you should make a thread to gauge the Quinn community's feelings towards the idea. +1

Blood MagicksOct 4, 20173 votes

This is fascinating stuff. Do you have a blog where you share your thoughts on design philosophy that I could read?

DarkSoul1994Oct 5, 20172 votes

I mean, he's not really a Werewolf. Hell, he didn't even change via Lycanthropy. In spite of the whole Vastaya update, he's not even one of them. He was essentially Chemically mutated into a Humanoid Wolf. He's literally a Lone Wolf, too. There is nothing and nobody else in Runeterra that is like him.

Calling him a Werewolf is just ignorant.

TortferngatrOct 5, 20173 votes

If he fights like a werewolf, looks like a werewolf, and howls like a werewolf...thematically, he's a werewolf.

Not only that, but Riot went with the "chemical augmented werewolf-looking chimera" instead of a "true" werewolf because it was one of the few ways to do a werewolf that hadn't already been done.

DarkSoul1994Oct 5, 20171 votes

Man-Wolf

HalfTangibleOct 5, 20173 votes

Werewolf already basically means 'man-wolf'

RiotReav3Oct 5, 20178 votes

I didn't say he was a werewolf, I said his achetype is a werewolf. We like to to twists on thematic's with our champions. The theme is werewolf though our twist on the archetype is very different then the cliche werewolf.

Eternal791Oct 4, 20171 votes

Thanks for the reply! Urgot's definitely one of my top 3 champions since the rework.

RiotReav3Oct 4, 20173 votes

NP! Yeah we have found that the people that like Urgot really love him and play tons of games on him! Glad you are digging him!

Poolparty SauronOct 4, 20173 votes

Speaking of wide appeal would you consider Aatrox when he gets reworked to attract a lot of players? Cus if i remember correct his Champ Spotlight has over 10 mil views.

RiotReav3Oct 4, 20176 votes

We think Aatrox's theme (Demon) could have broad appeal if his gameplay was much more exciting, yes.