@KateyKhaos - Why The Exclusion of Karma as a Star Guardian?

Vanjie·Sep 19, 2016·25 votes·10,999 views

I would really like to know why, a champion who is all about strength, resolve, and protecting the innocent, Karma was excluded? She doesn't have a 1350 skin. She received a very poorly worked on visual update. Karma has received the most unfair treatments in regards to reworks. Why was a champion who fits the skin series better than Jinx, excluded? I'm not saying the skins are bad or the story is bad. Karma should have been part of it more than Jinx or even Poppy, even though I adore the Poppy skin. It's just another realization that no part of Riot cares about Karma or the community that likes her. It's very disappointing. Good job on the Janna, Poppy and Lulu skins though.

121 Comments

RiotmoonstonesSep 20, 201625 votes

Hi!

You're right Karma is an awesome choice for a Star Guardian! Unfortunately, we couldn't do all of the awesome candidates this time around. But! If this thematic turns out to be something like PROJECT, you'll see another opportunity for more champions to join the Star Guardian team.

I would disagree that we don't care, because we do! She's received for Order of the Lotus and Warden Karma, both fairly close together in terms of release. Warden being released in September of 2015. So, it's been about a year, which, is about average for a champion to not receive a skin.

Part of what defines Star Guardian are young, powerful champions with diverse personalities; which is why you see someone more cynical like Jinx, or someone a bit more quirky like Lulu! Of course, other criteria went into selecting the final 4, but this was one of the pillars for helping us make the decisions. I do agree that other champions could fit into this line, but we felt these were the strongest options for the direction and story we were looking to tell.

CanastusSep 20, 201620 votes

It's kind of disheartening to see the same champions getting skins over and over again, especially those who already received some impressive skins in the past. I understand that this skinline might have given you the opportunity to feature these champions in particular but what about the extreme minority which has been waiting for ages now?

Cassiopeia has to be the most neglected female champion in the entire game and doesn't seem to get the slightest bit of love, neither Riot's art- nor lore-team seems to remember her whenever they get around to sketch or promote some of the champions of this game.

It's been over three and half years since her last skin came out, she seriously could use a legendary one this year (she'll hit 4 years of abstinence from any skins once next season rolls around). Her only decent skin came out in early season 3 whereas the rest doesn't have the slightest hint of custom particles or recall animations, so she really could use one.

LXIISep 20, 20168 votes

"over and over" Jinx has like 3 skins total.

BoundaryBreakerSep 20, 20166 votes

4 now XD. Star Guardian, Mafia, Slayer, and Firecracker

VanjieSep 20, 201612 votes

The fact is that Jinx has received more skins than other champions who have been out much longer. Not only that, some of her skins are 1350 . . . . and there are so many champion who have not received a 1350 skin. Jinx now has 2 or 3.

Hello I am BirdSep 20, 201610 votes

All of Jinx's skins change particles...

Let that sink in...

DessemSep 20, 20168 votes

Mafia Jinx is a 975 RP skin that even changes her dance animation.

SukishooSep 20, 20162 votes

Part of what defines Star Guardian are young, powerful champions with diverse personalities;

So...Star Guardian Annie confirmed XD (pls no.)

WarWorkSep 20, 20164 votes

I was totally with you Katey, until you said young :/ Aren't poppy and lulu hundreds of years old, and karma isn't young. It would have worked better if you said they need to be holding something

TyrekGoldenspearSep 20, 20163 votes

They are young for yordles. :3

Sexy Jack RabbitSep 20, 20162 votes

Actually Poppy and Kled are two of the Oldest Yordles we know of (Excluding Gnar.) Both were present for the creation of their respective cultures (Demacia and Noxus), and are the two earliest known appearances of Yordles.

IxtaliKingSep 20, 20168 votes

To be honest Katey, both Warden and Order the Lotus look budget. Karma doesn't have a single quality skin, while others seem to be getting quality skins all the time. Even though you guys say you care, it really doesn't look like it.

DessemSep 20, 201620 votes

I would disagree that we don't care, because we do! She's received for Order of the Lotus and Warden Karma, both fairly close together in terms of release. Warden being released in September of 2015. So, it's been about a year, which, is about average for a champion to not receive a skin.

Counter-point to those arguments for "we do care":

Jinx received Slayer Jinx in November 2015, which means it's been ~10 months since her last skin. This was also a 1350 RP skin. Her other skins are Mafia and Firecracker Jinx, priced 975 and 1350 RP respectively. Mafia Jinx has new particles, model, animations, new sounds and VO. Same with Firecracker minus the VO lines. Slayer Jinx also has a lot of changes, on animations, particles and sounds.

Janna's current catalogue of available skins is 975 RP Hextech Janna (model changes), 975 Frostqueen Janna (model + particle changes), 1820 RP Weathercast Janna (legendary). Tempest and Fnatic Janna are only model changes but I will charitably not count them since legacy.

Poppy has 975 RP Scarlet Hammer Poppy (model changes) and 520 RP Battle Regalia Poppy (model changes). (You could unfairly argue they have particle changes on R: those aren't particularly huge).

Lulu's catalogue includes Bittersweet and Wicked at 975 RP, with Dragon Trainer and Pool Party at 1350 RP. New models for the first set, everything new for the second set.

Karma has Sakura (520), Warden (750) and Order of the Lotus (975), of which all are model changes with Lotus Order getting the whole shebang of goodies. Her legacy skins Sun Goddess (750) and Traditional (975) are model changes with the latter including Karma's old VO.

Comparatively, Karma and Poppy have equally poor skin selection if you discount legacy skins. Include them, and Poppy ekes out a win over Karma in terms of what her skins offer.

I'm not going to argue that the skins created for Star Guardian are bad. They're not. But if you compare Karma's skin lineup to any of the four new Star Guardians, you'll see that only Karma and Poppy lack 1350 RP skins and offer a mostly vanilla skin of model changes with no further additions. Poppy has Lollipoppy and Karma has Order of the Lotus to offer some different particles, but Lulu, Janna and Jinx have received superior skins in terms of how they offer to change the playing experience for that champion.

I don't think you guys "don't care"; considering Evelynn, there's champions who have it worse in the skin department. Far worse. (Hi, Urgot. Yorick, Warwick.) However, I think fielding that argument doesn't hold water because demonstrably Karma's skins have been far less inspired and offer far fewer changes to their character fantasy than the other skins do for the champions that did get some goodies this time around.

Now, if the rumour for an Elementalist Lux ultimate skin is true, it'd mean that Lux, with her wide plethora of skins and numerous particle-changing skins, would be set for an even stronger fantasy change.

But Karma fans just don't have an immersive fantasy to indulge in for alternate interpretations of Karma. As a spiritual and religious leader, Sun Goddess Karma and Order of the Lotus Karma offer a mostly "same" take on her fantasy: in both cases she represents a faith or an order at the forefront of battle. Warden Karma offers the best departure from Karma's classic skin, whereas Sakura Karma just... feels out of place? And considering she only wears a kimono top, it doesn't even offer the fantasy the splash art promises. It's also similar in theme to Order of the Lotus Karma, which is a fan-wielding (but not really) woman with a flower theme in light garb.

In summation, I disagree with the original poster's assertion that you "really don't care", but I honestly believe you can step up the game with regards to Karma and giving her a skin that offers a markedly different approach to her character, and that offers a different gameplay experience beyond "different model."

Forbidden SirenSep 20, 20164 votes

This guy gets it.

VanjieSep 20, 201610 votes

No they don't care. If any Department part of Riot Games cared, Karma would not have a directionless kit, a rushed and lazy worked on visual update, the constant lies and excuses why she is never being worked on, and the number buffs they later nerf. Riot doesn't' care. The skin department just proved it. Karma fits the theme of the skin line . . . . more than anyone part of it . . . and she is YET AGAIN ignored.

I like Katey a lot and I do like the skin team a lot. I think when the skin team makes a skin . . . they do a fantastic job. To say that Riot cares about Karma . . . is a VERY BIG understatement. No Department at Riot Games cares about Karma. It's proof with how much they are treating her right now.

Meep ManSep 20, 20167 votes

I feel like your just angry about Karma in general, not just her not getting a Star Guardian skin. If you want to discuss Karma's issues like her gameplay and everything, do so in another thread. Otherwise, let's please stay on topic in your own thread.

ShifuneSep 20, 20162 votes

Just because a champion isn't number 1 on their priority list doesn't mean that they don't care. Yes, Karma's rework missed the mark thematically. That was stated ages ago, but there are champions who need way more attention at the moment than Karma. Even though Karma's rework missed the mark, she is still a more than viable champion, even seeing plenty of LCS play. Meanwhile, you have champions who are in such a bad position right now that the only people who play them are dedicated mains.

Saying Riot doesn't care about Karma because they didn't pick her for a skin... lol

CasterGilgameshSep 20, 20162 votes

i have my fingers crossed for Soraka Syndra Leblanc Leona Diana

TNHA BaritoneSep 20, 201610 votes

I love you KateyKhaos, but I'm going to have to say something. With all respect, of course, I understand your reasoning on why she was not included in the Star Guardian line-up. If anything, I'd agree with you. However, I don't think that mentioning Warden and Order of the Lotus Karma does your post any justice. Considering the fact that with her rework, Karma's other skins (Sakura, Traditional, and Sun Goddess) were, if anything, downgraded (quality-wise) and the models attempt to resemble the splash art, but miserably fail. I do understand that her rework happened a long time ago, but I can't help to feel ignored when I see the high-quality art and model changes that come with the newer reworks.

That point could apply to every champion that was reworked around the time of Karma's rework. Why does it matter?

I, and many other Karma fanatics, feel that her rework, among the completed reworks of her time, was thrown out to live in an unfinished way. I feel like it is unfair that Karma's core problems with her rework (from the art and thematic side) have yet to be addressed.

I see no hope for these fixes either considering that I cannot recall the last Riot-produced event that focused on Ionia...and I most definitely cannot see any in the future.

MordepoolSep 20, 20162 votes

"But If this thematic turns out to be something like PROJECT, you'll see another opportunity for more champions to join the Star Guardians"

Star Guardian Urgot Confirmed??????

REDREX7Sep 20, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot KateyKhaos,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=jOEejhwE,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2016-09-20T00:10:43.185+0000)

Hi!

You're right Karma is an awesome choice for a Star Guardian! Unfortunately, we couldn't do all of the awesome candidates this time around. But! If this thematic turns out to be something like PROJECT, you'll see another opportunity for more champions to join the Star Guardian team.

I would disagree that we don't care, because we do! She's received for Order of the Lotus and Warden Karma, both fairly close together in terms of release. Warden being released in September of 2015. So, it's been about a year, which, is about average for a champion to not receive a skin.

Part of what defines Star Guardian are young, powerful champions with diverse personalities; which is why you see someone more cynical like Jinx, or someone a bit more quirky like Lulu! Of course, other criteria went into selecting the final 4, but this was one of the pillars for helping us make the decisions. I do agree that other champions could fit into this line, but we felt these were the strongest options for the direction and story we were looking to tell.

It has been a year since a karma skin. I believe in riot to make a new karma skin by the end of the year. I REALLY REALLY HOPE she gets either a victorious skin, harrowing, christmas, or a challenger karma skin. MY number one favorite idea is a red themed Karma skin (Red favorite color) and either a red hellish karma skin for harrowing, (like hellfire demonic karma I love "good" champions going "evil") or a Red themed Christmas color for Karma. But I am hopeful for anything!! Also I love the Janna Star Guardian skin cant wait to throw my money at it.

VanjieSep 20, 20163 votes

I appreciate the comment. I will say that I think all of the skins are amazing and I am going to buy the Lulu one. I may be very upset that Karma is not part of it, but I do think the skins are good quality. It is again, the same as the Project Skin choices, certain champions being picked for high-quality skins over and skin lines where another one . . . who has no high-quality skin or fits the theme better . . . is overlooked for . . . . an Ekko skin. It's getting really old.

I have to disagree with your comment that Riot cares about Karma. Your department might care about her, but I am not thinking that with the recent selections for Star Guardian Skins. Karma is a champion that fits the line and theme of the skins . . . . to a T. Yet we get "popular" and more "worked on" champions who are part of the skin line. Lulu, Jinx, Lux, and even Janna . . . all have high-quality skins with frequently worked on kits. Karma doesn't get that. She has the same skins being made on her . . . that lack any character, direction, or stands out. Warden looks good but it offers her nothing . . . and it is a low budget and hardly worked on skin. It's unimpressive compared to the skins Lulu, Lux, Janna, and Jinx get EVERY year.

Until I see the company actually listen, communicate with fans more about Karma, actually WORK on Karma . . . and do more for her . . . then what you have never done, I will say Riot cares. No Department in Riot cares about the champion and it has been three years. When Karma was worked on her "relaunch", Riot removed her kit, her fans, her dress, her lore, her theme, her identity, didn't complete her animations, gave us a half worked on visual update, only care enough to giver her a number buff that they later nerf, and has used almost every excuse a Developer can use . . . . to basically say "we don't want to work on Karma right now. will just ignore her."

No department in the Riot Games company cares about Karma. You cannot say to me and all of her mains, fans, and tons of players that come on here . . . . constantly asking for changes, to get communication, and to have her worked on since her relaunch . . . . that you care about Karma at all. All of you know what her problems are. It's been three years and she is the worst worked on champion with a directionless kit and lazy and sloppy visual update. You don't care about Karma.

LimrickSep 20, 20163 votes

Maybe they don't want to make a Karma skin until her kit is sorted out, given that it's the philosophy they hold for other champions who need reworks. And considering the amount of bitching Karma players do about her current state, I'd be shocked if she WASN'T getting a fresh rework.

TNHA BaritoneSep 20, 20161 votes

Nothing in her kits needs resorting to the point where they could not be able to give her a skin...unless they are planning a surprise rework which is unlikely.

LimrickSep 21, 20162 votes

Well she lacks identity, which is listed as a reason for a rework. A little far-fetched, but it could be.

TNHA BaritoneSep 21, 20161 votes

How is that far-fetched?

Grief Me PleaseNov 3, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot KateyKhaos,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=jOEejhwE,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2016-09-20T00:10:43.185+0000)

Hi!

You're right Karma is an awesome choice for a Star Guardian! Unfortunately, we couldn't do all of the awesome candidates this time around. But! If this thematic turns out to be something like PROJECT, you'll see another opportunity for more champions to join the Star Guardian team.

I would disagree that we don't care, because we do! She's received for Order of the Lotus and Warden Karma, both fairly close together in terms of release. Warden being released in September of 2015. So, it's been about a year, which, is about average for a champion to not receive a skin.

Part of what defines Star Guardian are young, powerful champions with diverse personalities; which is why you see someone more cynical like Jinx, or someone a bit more quirky like Lulu! Of course, other criteria went into selecting the final 4, but this was one of the pillars for helping us make the decisions. I do agree that other champions could fit into this line, but we felt these were the strongest options for the direction and story we were looking to tell.

inb4 karma is one of janna's "gone" team mates ;^)

Maximum MordeSep 19, 201610 votes

My take is that a Star Guardian Skin theme would have too much overlap with Order of the Lotus visually. It wouldn't look exactly the same, but there would probably be a lot of similarities.

Forbidden SirenSep 20, 20162 votes

Lotus is a dress of a pink flower and Star Guardian is a sailor outfit with ribbons. They could even give her the color scheme of blue and a giant shiny star floating behind her. There you go, both are totally different now.

Joseph GladstoneSep 19, 20165 votes

honestly in my opinion poppy doesnt fit

WarWorkSep 20, 20165 votes

Not disagreeing with you, but why?

Joseph GladstoneSep 20, 20163 votes

jinx, lulu, janna, and lux are all happy and perky characters (maybe not so much janna, but still) and poppy seems like a more serious character, maybe its a normal thing, idk. just doesnt fit for me

WestwardZephyrSep 20, 20161 votes

If you watch Madoka Magica or lots of other magical girl anime (which this skin line is heavily based upon) not all of the characters are bright, bubbly chunks of sunshine (especially in Madoka). Even though they're magical girls, they don't all have to be particularly happy girls!

Joseph GladstoneSep 20, 20163 votes

yeah thats why it's just me because i dont watch anime at all

HigeSep 19, 20165 votes

I think it's a matter of Karma not being precisely bubbly and young, for the magical girl trope, even the eldest one is often very young looking, Karma looks a bit more seasoned than that plus dem thighs makes miniskirts look like tutus.

RalanrSep 19, 20164 votes

To be honest, I could see Karma instead of Janna.

Star GuardíanSep 19, 20164 votes

I could see Soraka taking Janna's place also.

SincarnationSep 20, 20164 votes

I was almost certain Karma and Janna were going to be a part of it. When i heard Jinx was in it, I didnt like it but seeing the skin and personality absolutely sold me. I'm honestly really disappointed that Karma wasn't in it and that the yordles are. I like Lulu and Poppy, but I dont think either of them needed or shouldve gotten star guardian skins.

Imperial JapanSep 20, 20161 votes

It's star guardians, these skins are basically made out of a concept of a Japanese school girl fighter/action anime. Yordles are tiny and bubbly so I'd say they fit right in. As for Karma.. not so much. She'd be the lady who is trying to get her daughter to become a bride

SincarnationSep 20, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=DLTD Stuart,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=jOEejhwE,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2016-09-20T17:01:45.707+0000)

It's star guardians, these skins are basically made out of a concept of a Japanese school girl fighter/action anime. Yordles are tiny and bubbly so I'd say they fit right in. As for Karma.. not so much. She'd be the lady who is trying to get her daughter to become a bride

If it was 1 to 1 cut and paste then neither Jinx nor Poppy belong. Considering Jinx is batshit insane and Poppy is supposed to be the serious not bubbly yordle.

They shifted the character's personalities in the skin lore to fit the theme, no reason they couldnt have done the same with Karma

Imperial JapanSep 20, 20161 votes

Karma is old as fuck 2. She doesn't fit AT ALL. 3. Jinx is young, has a violent personality which fits the thematic of what this skin line offers and her personality is not too altered 4. Poppy has a quirky personality. She is serious but she also has the aspect of what the skin line has to offer. As you're clearly not Asian nor have experienced the culture in which the idea came from I believe you're at no right to really say what the theme is or what it should be lol. If you'd like to do that join the riot skin team. (Btw I've been to Japan, I AM half Japanese, and know what I'm talking about with experience of having Japanese family and especially ones that are girls (around age 5)

SincarnationSep 20, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=DLTD Stuart,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=jOEejhwE,comment-id=0007000000000000,timestamp=2016-09-20T21:50:44.542+0000)

Karma is old as fuck 2. She doesn't fit AT ALL. 3. Jinx is young, has a violent personality which fits the thematic of what this skin line offers and her personality is not too altered 4. Poppy has a quirky personality. She is serious but she also has the aspect of what the skin line has to offer. As you're clearly not Asian nor have experienced the culture in which the idea came from I believe you're at no right to really say what the theme is or what it should be lol. If you'd like to do that join the riot skin team. (Btw I've been to Japan, I AM half Japanese, and know what I'm talking about with experience of having Japanese family and especially ones that are girls (around age 5)

Because CLEARLY only the Japanese can understand and comment anything of value about this theme, get the fuck outta here with that shit. Get off your fucking high horse, no one gives a shit who you are or what you've done. Your OPINION has just as much value as everyone elses around here, so instead of trying to make yours come off as better why don't you try supporting it with a decent argument?

Look at Karma's splash and tell me that is an old woman. Karma is probably late 20's but then remember that they are refering to Janna as the "old" woman.
Why doesn't karma fit? Its not her age, her character could've been the same as Poppy's or Janna's and it wouldn't have been strange at all. Is it her look? Why? Your second statement is an opinion
How many bloodthirsty magical girls are there? Not many because gratuitous violence when it comes to magical girls if often used as the offset. The unexpected and rarely done thing. They did change Jinx's personality in a major way, she is quite clearly SANE in this skin. Violent yes, but she understands her actions and morality.
It could be said every champ has an aspect of what the skin lines offers, an aspect doesnt mean they are the most suited or deserving of the skin.

edit: AS SOMEONE ELSE BROUGHT UP Jinx is older than Vi according to the reds that answered questions about her after her release, age has very little to do with the choices here -_-

Imperial JapanSep 21, 20161 votes

Actually, being Japanese does come in to play as the skin line theme was inspired by my culture. As I'm part of the culture I would be able to understand how they tried to shape the idea. My OPINION however is yes on everyone else's level. I don't deny that.

Sorry for calling her old. I had the image of another splash art in my head. Although she may not be "old" she does not look "young" enough to be part of a highschool super hero type of girl. It's shown by her clothing and accessories.
This is where opinion comes into play but I think you know how she couldn't have replaced poppy. As for Janna I do believe the weapon and clothing came into effect. In these Japanese anime/shows "fans" are not too popular as a choice of weapon whereas Wands and staffs are. Looking back at clothing as Karma is portrayed as a high status/protector of shit and whatnot giving her skimpy Japanese uniform type clothing would not match what karma is. On the other hand Janna is portrayed a bit more sexual which I believe allows for her to fit in.
So jinx eh, well to start off with yes I agree she is more sane than her usual counter part. Also violent/ offsetting is usually included in these stories to allow for internal conflicts. Which could also be the case as jinx may have insanity that's just GROWING. Kuro her weapon could be shown as her insane side whereas Shiro could be shown as the sane.
Your opinion so I guess you can say whatever for this

The feel/look of age does come into play. People just portray jinx as younger because they believe the older sibling would be more calm collected or more sane.

SincarnationSep 21, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=DLTD Stuart,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=jOEejhwE,comment-id=000700000000000000010000,timestamp=2016-09-21T05:56:44.805+0000)

Actually, being Japanese does come in to play as the skin line theme was inspired by my culture. As I'm part of the culture I would be able to understand how they tried to shape the idea. My OPINION however is yes on everyone else's level. I don't deny that.

Sorry for calling her old. I had the image of another splash art in my head. Although she may not be "old" she does not look "young" enough to be part of a highschool super hero type of girl. It's shown by her clothing and accessories.

This is where opinion comes into play but I think you know how she couldn't have replaced poppy. As for Janna I do believe the weapon and clothing came into effect. In these Japanese anime/shows "fans" are not too popular as a choice of weapon whereas Wands and staffs are. Looking back at clothing as Karma is portrayed as a high status/protector of shit and whatnot giving her skimpy Japanese uniform type clothing would not match what karma is. On the other hand Janna is portrayed a bit more sexual which I believe allows for her to fit in.

So jinx eh, well to start off with yes I agree she is more sane than her usual counter part. Also violent/ offsetting is usually included in these stories to allow for internal conflicts. Which could also be the case as jinx may have insanity that's just GROWING. Kuro her weapon could be shown as her insane side whereas Shiro could be shown as the sane.

Your opinion so I guess you can say whatever for this

The feel/look of age does come into play. People just portray jinx as younger because they believe the older sibling would be more calm collected or more sane.

You saying you're japanese has no point, other than some shitty attempt to make your opinion sound more credible. No one knows if it is true and no one cares. It also doesnt default mean you understand magical girls better than someone else.

Karma looks yound, she doesnt look teenage, but neither does Janna nor poppy/lulu for that matter.
No I'm not really sure how she couldnt have replaced Poppy. Your are right fans are a rare choice of weapon, but not unheard of by any means. Also would be a great chance for riot to undo some of the screw ups they did with the karma rework. Now dress is a possible valid criticism, but considering not all of the star guardians are in mini skirts, I'm sure Riot could whip something up that would fit the thematic and not look off. Lulu and Poppy arent sexual at all but they can get away with skimpier outfits? Yeah no this doesnt really make sense.
Entirely speculation, and only further proves my point that even the nontraditional can be worked into a theme fairly smoothly
The point was, every champ has an aspect that could fit into the skin line. So saying poppy has an aspect suited to it is pointless as basically every champ does

Imperial JapanSep 21, 20161 votes

Yes being Japanese DOES have a point. The theme is taken from my culture for christs sake 😂 Even a small child would be able to understand that if something is taken from your culture you would know more about it. Also myself having a younger sister (age 9) and a younger girl cousin (who's 5 and lives in Japan) sort of DOES give me better knowledge on this subject as they watch shows of "magical girls". By the way, you can send a ticket in to riot to ask them where they got the idea from lmao, go ahead try it. You can prove yourself wrong haha.

Lulu and Poppy don't look exactly teenager but you can see how they fit into the theme of the skin line. As for karma versus Janna, as I stated already their clothing, accessories, weapons, all of those factors show that Janna is a better candidate for the spot.
I'm glad you agree. As for Poppy and lulu not being sexualized I agree with this but it's justified in the sense that it still covers the same areas as their original model covers. If they were to cut off like half of Karmas skirt to make her fit the skins for one it'll take a lot more time and effort. Second it'll cost more and probably will be a 1820 skin. Third, they won't have to do this if they already have a perfectly able candidate (Janna). As for karma needing recognition I do agree to a certain point as in she needs many bug fixes, a mini rework, etc. A skin won't really do her good if these things aren't fixed anyways.
Fitting in the non traditional will be possible but i do want you to realize Karma doesn't fit in personality wise and will take a lot more effort and time and just so much more extra just to add someone they already have a perfectly capable candadite for.
Yes every champion may have at least one aspect that may fit into every skin line but that doesn't mean they should be a part of it. Poppy for example has more than one fitting criteria. Hence why someone like twitch wouldn't be getting a Star Guardian skin.

As for karma getting a skin she would probably be suited better for a empress type skin

SincarnationSep 21, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=DLTD Stuart,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=jOEejhwE,comment-id=00070000000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2016-09-21T11:45:10.654+0000)

Yes being Japanese DOES have a point. The theme is taken from my culture for christs sake 😂 Even a small child would be able to understand that if something is taken from your culture you would know more about it. Also myself having a younger sister (age 9) and a younger girl cousin (who's 5 and lives in Japan) sort of DOES give me better knowledge on this subject as they watch shows of "magical girls". By the way, you can send a ticket in to riot to ask them where they got the idea from lmao, go ahead try it. You can prove yourself wrong haha.

Lulu and Poppy don't look exactly teenager but you can see how they fit into the theme of the skin line. As for karma versus Janna, as I stated already their clothing, accessories, weapons, all of those factors show that Janna is a better candidate for the spot.

I'm glad you agree. As for Poppy and lulu not being sexualized I agree with this but it's justified in the sense that it still covers the same areas as their original model covers. If they were to cut off like half of Karmas skirt to make her fit the skins for one it'll take a lot more time and effort. Second it'll cost more and probably will be a 1820 skin. Third, they won't have to do this if they already have a perfectly able candidate (Janna). As for karma needing recognition I do agree to a certain point as in she needs many bug fixes, a mini rework, etc. A skin won't really do her good if these things aren't fixed anyways.

Fitting in the non traditional will be possible but i do want you to realize Karma doesn't fit in personality wise and will take a lot more effort and time and just so much more extra just to add someone they already have a perfectly capable candadite for.

Yes every champion may have at least one aspect that may fit into every skin line but that doesn't mean they should be a part of it. Poppy for example has more than one fitting criteria. Hence why someone like twitch wouldn't be getting a Star Guardian skin.

As for karma getting a skin she would probably be suited better for a empress type skin

Being Japanese doesn't matter, just because your great great great grandparent may have come from Japan doesn't mean you know anything/everything relevant about their culture. Just saying you're Japanese isn't enough with no proof or extra qualifiers, for all we know your grandparents are Japanese but everything you know about Japan is from anime (most likely this). It is possible to be Japanese/African/Irish/whatever ethnic BACKGROUND and know nothing about that culture.

No I don't see how they fit as weird children, and that's not an argument.
Cost/effort are irrelevant they can still be made, and you are shifting my argument. There is nothing wrong with Janna getting the skin, Karma and quite a few other champs would've been better candidates for the skin than Poppy and Lulu.
Karma doesn't fit in personality wise? She could've fit perfectly with either Janna or Poppy's current role. Karma's entire schitck is she does what is necessary despite the cost to her. Self-sacrifice is a good theme.
Does Poppy/Lulu have more than say Diana? or X champion? Not really, Poppy and Lulu were picked because someone on the skins team thought Yordle guardians would be cool/cute not because they were more fitting than anyone else. As far as I'm concerned they were horribly mistaken.

Imperial JapanSep 22, 20161 votes

Look, I'm half Japanese and my mom's side of the family is Japanese. She lived in Japan until she got married with my dad. I have been to Japan on many occasions in my life. I had my grandparents help raise me who are 100% Japanese and taught me much of Japan. I also went to Japan every year (more than just for the summer before I started school and every summer after I started.) I have been to many places within Japan and even went to school there each and every summer all the way up to when I was in highschool as I would've needed to pass exams and apply to the highschool. Yes I watch a good amount of anime but I have been a part of and still do experience the cultural aspect of Japan. (I go to Japanese school every week as well to learn more of the language and the culture as well) Tl; dr. I have experienced the Japanese culture and IMO am qualified to talk about it as I DO know it.

Okay fine you don't HAVE to see that poppy or lulu fit into the skin line but I do hope you're educated enough as to see why karma can't replace them. As for Janna vs Karma I guess you just ignored what I said about it.
This is a Japanese anime/culture type thing we're talking about. (Although even if you're not Japanese you'd know via anime) In the "magical school girl" type anime they take the thematics of the skin line out of its apparent that each and every one of the "magical school girls" have different personalities such as: Calm, conflicted, organized, peppy, etc. if you name some champions that would've been a better candidate I could tell you why Poppy and lulu were better but since you mentioned karma I'll tell you why she couldn't have replaced Poppy or lulu. We already have a calm and collected type character which this skin line already has, Janna and this type of anime only have one "wise and collected" character. With others being like of a leader, mood maker, the one that's conflicted because her brother is part of the dark side, etc
Again I told you how Janna was just a better candidate overall. as for poppy I do understand where you're coming from as both are about self sacrifice and all that but if you look at karma, she would also be the wise one and the one that is the leader. This would conflict with both Janna (wise) and Lux (leader).
Oh because Diana the champ who frikin worships the MOON is going to be a STAR guardian. Let's cut your argument off right here. First off, Diana is about the moon, second off. She is or was I believe portrayed as an evil character. Unlike jinx which they made into the character with conflict they can't really do that to her without having her quiet and calm personality conflicting with that of Janna's. Aka she doesn't stand for what the others stand for in the skin line and her personality conflicts with the inclusion in the skin line versus that of Jinx's. As for poppy and lulu it might be hard to understand why they're there as you have no experience with the Japanese culture including even that of anime (or so I believe) but if you could state another champion and why they could and should replace poppy or lulu I could explain to you why not even if they have some aspects that may be good for the skin line

SincarnationSep 22, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=DLTD Stuart,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=jOEejhwE,comment-id=0007000000000000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-09-22T04:59:29.797+0000)

Look, I'm half Japanese and my mom's side of the family is Japanese. She lived in Japan until she got married with my dad. I have been to Japan on many occasions in my life. I had my grandparents help raise me who are 100% Japanese and taught me much of Japan. I also went to Japan every year (more than just for the summer before I started school and every summer after I started.) I have been to many places within Japan and even went to school there each and every summer all the way up to when I was in highschool as I would've needed to pass exams and apply to the highschool. Yes I watch a good amount of anime but I have been a part of and still do experience the cultural aspect of Japan. (I go to Japanese school every week as well to learn more of the language and the culture as well) Tl; dr. I have experienced the Japanese culture and IMO am qualified to talk about it as I DO know it.

Okay fine you don't HAVE to see that poppy or lulu fit into the skin line but I do hope you're educated enough as to see why karma can't replace them. As for Janna vs Karma I guess you just ignored what I said about it.

This is a Japanese anime/culture type thing we're talking about. (Although even if you're not Japanese you'd know via anime) In the "magical school girl" type anime they take the thematics of the skin line out of its apparent that each and every one of the "magical school girls" have different personalities such as: Calm, conflicted, organized, peppy, etc. if you name some champions that would've been a better candidate I could tell you why Poppy and lulu were better but since you mentioned karma I'll tell you why she couldn't have replaced Poppy or lulu. We already have a calm and collected type character which this skin line already has, Janna and this type of anime only have one "wise and collected" character. With others being like of a leader, mood maker, the one that's conflicted because her brother is part of the dark side, etc

Again I told you how Janna was just a better candidate overall. as for poppy I do understand where you're coming from as both are about self sacrifice and all that but if you look at karma, she would also be the wise one and the one that is the leader. This would conflict with both Janna (wise) and Lux (leader).

Oh because Diana the champ who frikin worships the MOON is going to be a STAR guardian. Let's cut your argument off right here. First off, Diana is about the moon, second off. She is or was I believe portrayed as an evil character. Unlike jinx which they made into the character with conflict they can't really do that to her without having her quiet and calm personality conflicting with that of Janna's. Aka she doesn't stand for what the others stand for in the skin line and her personality conflicts with the inclusion in the skin line versus that of Jinx's. As for poppy and lulu it might be hard to understand why they're there as you have no experience with the Japanese culture including even that of anime (or so I believe) but if you could state another champion and why they could and should replace poppy or lulu I could explain to you why not even if they have some aspects that may be good for the skin line

No proof, empty and pointless claims that other people in this thread have called you out on agreeing with me that it has nothing to do with this.

I didn't ignore anything, you didnt say anything. You just make broad statements, like " I hope you're educated enough to see my point of view" that's not an argument. Its thinly veiled ad hominem, that only furthers to weaken your argument.
You are so rigid in your mindset, clearly if there were different champions they don't all have to have the same niche they are filling now. Janna could still be the quiet and reserved one, but split from wisdom to make Karma experienced or wise. Its not cut and paste replacement, things can change and shift. In such case its perfectly fine for Karma and Janna to exist on the same team occupying different roles. Japan loves their shy quiet girls and they aren't all wise, polite, or even smart.
Karma doesn't necessarily have to be the leader, the leader is rarely the wisest person in a group. The leader is the one with charisma.
Yes because it is such a huge jump from one Celestial body to another. Clearly her canonical lore loving the moon couldnt possibly be shifted in the non-canonical skin lore to something different. Riot have never done that before, oh wait thats the entire point of skins. Re-imagining a character in a different light, hey what if syndra/aatrox/varus were good? What if Trynd was devoured by his sword? What if Diana was apart of a group celestial beings that protect the universe? Oh wait that's not a huge leap from her current story now is it? Diana was NEVER evil, at her core she was always a curious outcasted young woman who searched for the truth and acceptance only to be scorned further upon finding what she was looking for. She killed the people who were going to execute her under false pretenses, hardly evil. Her original lore had her going around killing people who did the same thing the heretics did which is deny her existence and worth. She can only be considered more "evil" than Jinx because Jinx canonically is insane and doesn't know morality, but through actions Jinx is way fucking worse. So its hardly her personality or character that prevents her from being in it.

I'm done with you, you apparently have no experience writing characters or having an actual argument. "As for poppy and lulu it might be hard to understand why they're there as you have no experience with the Japanese culture including even that of anime (or so I believe) but if you could state another champion and why they could and should replace poppy or lulu I could explain to you why not even if they have some aspects that may be good for the skin line" This is basically you think they fit because you like them but you cant explain why you think they do so you resort to again trying to use your supposed understanding of Japanese culture as a cop out. If you paid attention earlier you might've picked up how much I actually do know about Japan (and anime for that matter). Doesn't matter though, you can't even argue your point.

Imperial JapanSep 22, 20161 votes

First off, how do YOU with NO experience with Japan know what my people like and dislike? xD Anyways, that aside, Riot doesn't have to cut and paste what's standard. Yes I do realize that but Karma's personality conflicts with the other candidates (not only Janna but also with Poppy and Lux)personalities too much not to mention she isn't a good fit for the role in the theme of the skin line visually as well. (Her in game model, clothing, etc.)
Again, I love how all the sudden you're now an expert on Japanese culture. Did you binge watch 10 episodes of puriquwa before watching this? Anyways, -look at Karmas position, lore, and personality. She is part of Ionia's council, a leader in her homeland. You can't just strip off the leadership aspect from her or else she won't be herself. You keep saying you can just adjust her but by the end of all "adjustments" you make, you'll just have another Lux, Janna, Poppy or lulu.
Yes they have cases were they change a character from good to evil or evil to good and in some cases from sad to happy (Amumu's skin). Diana on the other hand you're saying to change immensely. Her lore completely revolves around the moon. Taking that and changing it completely changes her as well as how her abilities will look like. (Such as her W, e, and q) Seeing as how this affects her so much the only way to change her to a star guardian is to make her an ultimate skin where they start out all new concepts. (As a rioter previously mentioned not of just this but as how ultimate skins work) Yet again making it an ultimate skin wouldn't work either due to it being a pointless change to only allow a single champion be a part of a skin line. All ultimate skins tend to be starts of new skin lines such as Ezreals ultimate skin being the start or inspiration to create the Project skinline (and other ones if you find the rioters post). All ultimate skins also bring out what the champion is more and none have been what they wherent. Udyr had his abilities and his spirit animals amped up, DJ sona was literally "amplified" (haha get it) to further show her musicality and to be the staple musician of league. 4.( I guess 4?) I only said it in that manner because it was 1AM at the time and I felt sleepy. I guess I can't do that in arguments due to people picking up on it in such a manner. Anyways, please do tell me how how you know the Japanese culture and the "magical school girl" themed anime (for that matter). As for Poppy and Lulu being there Lulu is portrayed as the random/derpy/peppy character who's usually the good morale of the team and is shown in a way where the viewers can laugh at her clumsiness outside of battle and good/team morale during battle in which she's serious. Poppy I don't know much about personally (as I don't play nor was interested in her) but I can go look up who or what she stands for just for the sake of the argument and will update my post later (#spending my time wisely). Understanding of the Japanese culture actually does happen to be a big part of it as that's where the slimline got its inspiration from.

GreenLoreSep 22, 20161 votes

{quoted}

No I'm not really sure how she couldnt have replaced Poppy. Your are right fans are a rare choice of weapon, but not unheard of by any means. Also would be a great chance for riot to undo some of the screw ups they did with the karma rework. Now dress is a possible valid criticism, but considering not all of the star guardians are in mini skirts, I'm sure Riot could whip something up that would fit the thematic and not look off. Lulu and Poppy arent sexual at all but they can get away with skimpier outfits? Yeah no this doesnt really make sense.

The thing is that the only star guardian who doesn't wear a mini skirt is jinx,who wears hotpants,which is pretty close to a miniskirt anyway as it still shows off her legs. And Riot likely had to decide between Karma and Janna,because these 2 are pretty close in terms of personality and theme,they would have been both the "old"(as in only a year older than the others),wise and experienced members of the group.