Don't screw Swain lovers like you did screw us Galio lovers, here are some things you MUSTN'T change

DoktorKaiser·Jul 19, 2017·57 votes·4,389 views

His ravens theme, I think this is pretty iconic, he has a deep connection to his raven, now I agree that him turning into one doesn't really fit his story so far unless he stole some vastayan magic or something, also doesn't fit his "master tactician" title to just turn into a beast and charge into 5 people, as you already said, so if you decide not to go that way I will understand, but at least keep some ravens in his kit because its awesome and ravens are cool af
His rusty voice and limping, also iconic, he probably has the most unique walking animation and his voice makes him sound kind of evil and vicious and I love it
The motherfucking "nevermove", this right here has to be the absolute best and most creative pun name for an ability in the entire League, if you change this I will be very very upset (and so will Phreak!!!), just keep some hard CC and name it nevermove or I will RIOT kappa123

What do you guys think, is there anything else? I really want them to preserve that feeling of old Swain since they absolutely butchered and removed my Galio and this new dumb rock feels distant, I haven't played a single game on one of my mains and favorite champs since his rework. I don't want the same for Swain mains or any other mains for that matter.

139 Comments

RalanrJul 19, 201740 votes

If they give Swain a root, it must be called Nevermove. He needs that name in his kit.

Hyrum GraffJul 19, 20179 votes

Quoth the raven,

{quoted}

Nevermove

It Hertz When IPJul 20, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hyrum Graff,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=irxvRE5z,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2017-07-19T21:44:53.158+0000)

Quoth the raven,

AWWWRRRRRKKKKKKKK!

....wait, are we not being literal?

Hyrum GraffJul 20, 20172 votes

edited my post slightly (order swap)

ModWulf HelhammerJul 19, 201733 votes

Could you elaborate on how Galio lovers were "screwed"? Because a) it's not like a full relaunch was anything other than what was expected, and b) he still keeps many of the core traits of old Galio

DoktorKaiserJul 19, 201717 votes

Like what exactly? Is he a wise old semi-depressed gargoyle sentinel trying to find a reason to exist? No, he is an ancient dumb as fuck bloodthirsty op superman statue. Is he a mage? No he is an overloaded tank. Are his kit and playstyle unique? No, his kit is a mix of best parts of other tank kits, his playstyle is not unique in any way shape or form. Does he at least fucking fly? Nope. Did they at least keep his color pattern? Nope, fuck that as well. His voice? Lol, no. Come on man they at least could have released a traditional skin? Nope, nope, nope, here is the new guy, your champ is dead, byeeeeeee.

ModWulf HelhammerJul 19, 201726 votes

So were you upset when they changed Sion(spelling correction) from a stupid Arnold quoting zombie to an actually threatening undead scion of war? Because that's literally when relaunches are supposed to do. They take the base, core elements of the champion, and just redo them.

Take the base core elements of Galio: statue/gargoyle antimage defender of Demacia. Core gameplay elements: AoE taunt, waveclear, strong against magic damage.

With how Demacia changed, he couldn't be the same. And how is he bloodthirsty? Keep in mind the only reason he seems happy during battle is because, according to his lore, the only reason he's alive is because there is something to fight. So he's excited that he's living, and moving, and he can talk! His somber side is in his quieter quotes, when he realizes that his life will go away when he accomplishes the job he was made for.

As for gameplay: I don't think there is a single other champion with an aoe taunt, nor an innate magic shield. And let's face it, at this stage of the game, very few things can actually be original in themselves; what makes it orignal is how they are implemented and work together on the champion

Glory ln DeathJul 19, 201710 votes

Simon, the Undead Juggernaut.

KaRniVooL13Jul 19, 20172 votes

i do miss the old sion voice over lol ... always found it funny and enjoyed it alot

Warlord DienekesJul 19, 20171 votes

I never actually heard a good explanation for why Demacia's change (into a flawed vaguely medieval kingdom) had to result in Galio changes. Since, you know, gargoyles aren't exactly contradictory to any of that.

Wrathof300Jul 20, 20172 votes

In terms of design I'm sure he meant. Almost everything in Demacia is made out of/ covered in petricite, the fact that his colour scheme would change, was obvious the day Demacia was revealed on the universe page. Riot's thoughts on why Galio had to change with Demacia's change are in his champion insights page.

Warlord DienekesJul 20, 20173 votes

Right, so, let's do this.

Now, I'm writing as someone who does not care about old Galio, and does not care about new Galio. This champion was never even on my radar. But I will look at the arguments and say if I think they're logical or make sense. Also I haven't read that link before, so this will sort of be my first impressions view of it. It will probably be long, I'm a long-winded bastard.

Everything in Demacia being made out of one specific material is idiotic. Especially when no one else seems to have it and it has highly prized properties. That's dumb. Like, first year philosophy major who thinks he can fix the world but doesn't understand the basics of economics dumb. If this stuff is so common as to be able to cover the entire city/entire kingdom then it should be traded basically everywhere. Even if Demacia itself doesn't legitimize the trade, it still would be. That's the exact reason why smuggling happens. That's the exact reason for major events like the Opium Wars, or why Vikings existed. People wanting to make a quick buck would scrape it off buildings and sell it to anyone who wants to fight mages. Which considering how common they are turning up on the world stage, should be just about everyone.

Now, even if Demacia is completely isolationist. The only way that can possibly be enforced is if Demacia is basically a secluded island, or somehow smack dab in the middle of a desert or something. None of which the lore has indicated, and the wars with Noxus sort of imply otherwise. I'll say imply because there are examples of such isolationist cultures who get suddenly and (to them) inexplicably attacked by people who wonder if those guys on that island over there have such mad loot. Usually this ends up with said isolationist kingdom getting wiped off the face of the map. Or occasionally giant storms appear out of nowhere and wreck the mongol invasion force. Twice. The other solution is magic. Because it's bullshit and can answer any problem. Only, Demacia is the one kingdom that really can't fall back on the magic bullshit solution. So, again, why isn't this stuff everywhere?

The whole being more important means making him literally bigger is basically my gripe with the entire direction the lore is going. Somehow confusing power with being interesting or a focus in a story. Power is not inherently interesting (look at the main gripe against Superman). Power just shapes the way the story can be made interesting. And the further in power you get, the more potential pitfalls and ways the story doesn't really flow or make sense (I'll come back to that in a second). See the shift from relatively mundane or slightly super heroes and turning them into overpowered nonsense; like all of Targon, and turning the contained civil war conflict into a vast space opera with demi-gods and a dragon that farts stars. I'm not going to go further into that one. But building up the antagonist to the aforementioned star dragon as some guy with a spear has a whole slew of problems only solved by warping that guy with a spear into something he never was and doesn't make sense even in the story.

Further point of stupidity. If the generals wanted a movable wall, why the hell would someone sculpt it like a man-thing? The hell is that? That's a terrible design. The enemy can literally shoot through the legs. And if he's 300 tons, how is this a movable wall? Did they take him apart and put him back together again? If they did, why didn't they just line the arms, legs, and wings on the ground as, an actual wall. Why would anyone ever re-assemble this monstrosity?

So, let's go with the indirect arguments. Galio was changed to more closely fit with Demacian color schemes. That seems kind of silly to me. I don't think anyone who played Galio was ever really worried about that. And it's not even like the Demacian color scheme actually is followed by other Demacians heroes. Take Lucian and Vayne, neither of which fit Demacian color scheming at all, nor the Demacian standard pseudo-medieval style. More to the point, if they wanted to actually keep their lore consistent with the design that the old players wanted to see, that's not even that hard to think of a solution. He's been outside, uncared for for hundreds of years. He should be dirty, a bit grimy, discolored, and maybe have some vines growing on him. Having his design show an off-tinged green with the white peaking through would both look cool, and fit the new lore and old design better.

So, the big take off is that they wanted to make a Colossus of Rhodes/Statue of Liberty character. Ok. But, Galio never was that. And having the Colossus of Rhodes as your character make a whole bunch of weird lore problems. Going back to the point I said I was coming back to earlier. He's by his own admission 300 tons. His opponent, is supposed to be Sion. Sions a big guy. But, there's no way in hell he should be able to knock over 300 tons as Reav3 has mentioned he can do. This means, Sion is scary strong. His running would hit harder than a canon shot. Which raises the question: Why the Hell is he even bothering with an axe? He'd be way more effective if he just ran back and forth through the enemy army. What are they going to do to stop him? He can move 300 tons and can't die. How did they ever even contain him? He can move 300 tons. Didn't they just put him in a memorial building or something? He could run through the walls like a Looney Tunes character without noticing it. Oh right. Magic bullshit. Fine.

Still though, looking at it like that, why is Sion designed the way he is designed? Why is Galio? This doesn't really make sense.

Wrathof300Jul 20, 20172 votes

The entire kingdom being made out of pertricite has to be overexaggeration to some degree one way or another (which is why even myself went of my way to include that instead of everything being ‘made’ out of it is could just be covered in it, think of it as trying to build a house out of paint vs trying to cover a house in the same colour paint). Also, take into consideration Demacia has been around for centuries, it’s not like they just up and decided to build the entirety of the current kingdom overnight, even if they are isolationists, whether or not they need to expand depends on their settlement types and birthrate-deathrate ratios. Plus using portions to make armor for generations of generations of knights, fortifying the soldiers would come before fortifying buildings, as well, with a defense around their kingdom (say a wall of pertricite) they wouldn’t need every single place to be covered in it since the exiled every mage they get their hands on, so there is no immediate threat within the walls of Demacia, so only older/ more important building s would have petricite. Also covering buildings in petricite would cost a great deal, so likely poorer citizens would have regular homes and establishments.

Now we get to the smuggling aspect of petricite but the simple answer to this, is that no one would know this best than the Demacian government themselves, I highly doubt they would make any joke about protecting ‘petrified forests’ and preventing the selling of armor, I’m not talking just the goody to shoes way of protecting these things either, there might actually be some people in demacia that would do some corrupt things to ensure that petricite trade never happens. Or not, for all we know Demacia could be selling petricite weapons and armor all over the place, not that it would it would backfire on them since they don’t use mages, worst case scenario they don’t manage how much they keep for themselves, but in that event, they just resort to option one. Another question however, would any country want it anyways? Noxus is the largest empire currently in the lore while they aren't heavily dependent on magic, they have their implications for it, i.e The Black Rose and Sion. Same with the Freljord, it’s not central, but they still have their uses for magic. Ionia is shaping up to be the continent most in tune with their natural magic resource, so they wouldn't want it either because it would mean throwing away their culture. For all we know, based on interactions with Demacia, there could be places on Runeterra where petricite is banned. From Galio and Lux’s interation in their story, we could assume that too much exposure to much petricite could rob a mage of their innate magic after all Galio is probably made with a ratio of 90~100% of petricite, unlike some of the buildings in the kingdom which are proabably just coated in it. So, with their most powerful units at risk (mages), I could see why some countries may not even want it all that much, if at all. Again, that’s even if Demacia is sharing this stuff.

When the generals asked for a wall and Durand gave them a man-dragon thing instead, indeed just blast it in the leg and it will topple ad crumble. However, you can’t blast it with magic, so canons? It could very well be possible canons didn’t exist when Galio was made, as well the range that those canons need to be in, opposed to the range of Galio’s field, Galio could be all the in the back line of Demacia’s army out of range to enemy canons that would be preoccupied with charging soldiers, or if canon existed way back in the day, soldiers charging in on wyverns.

As for colour schemes, Lucian and Vayne in fact are aligned with Demacia’s White/ Silver, Blue and Gold colour scheme. Lucian with his white overcoat thingy and Vayne with her dark blue body suit. Of course, they aren’t 100% in line, this is to allow for character expression for one, but mainly because they were designed before the new Demacia. Vayne and Lucian themselves are very extreme representations of Demacia’s unseen, hunting monsters and involvement with cults, as well for their missions, armor would way them down, as they rely on their agility and stealth tactics, and possibly armor would be useless if the monsters could shred through them. As far as we know, Riot could be planning a redesign of Demacian champions to be more about the Demacia colour scheme, not long after the update someone actually made a post talking about what if Demacian champions were all brought strictly in line with the colour scheme. Galio, is not just Demacia’s Statue of liberty, he is much closer to their coat of arms and national animal combined and blow up to the size of the statue of liberty, he is a national symbol for them and, it actually makes sense that they would try to keep him clean, even if it’s not everyday someone cleans him, he isn’t left forgotten and uncared-for centuries on end.

With regard to Galio being comparable to Malphite’s size, was also a gripe of mine, as a it would be been much more interesting if he were smaller as that would have allowed a more realistic battle between him and Sion. However, I’m sure this would give you your answer for why, Demacia hasn’t been overwhelmed by any army as of yet. Back to Sion, being his rival, personally I see this is in the metaphorical sense, as them both being their respective country’s super weapons, as for whether or not an actual battle between them being interesting that is up to our imagination. Also, to answer why Sion doesn’t just charge through the enemy army, it’s the same reason for why most people use his ult close ranged in game (if he misses he can’t immediately turn around). As for why Riot made these characters to be this way when they weren’t before, this is simply because, this is the which in which they chose to tell the stories of their characters. They wanted to make Galio a statue that would be carried in war to provide a magic barrier for their troops, however, keeping him, the same size wouldn’t allow petricite to generate a big enough barrier, so by their logic, he needed to be bigger. Of course, nothing I said here has to have any substance behind it, what is important is whether or not it can fit into your perception of Demacia. Similarly, to how, from me answering your question, I realized that it is likely not every building is Demacia has a Petricite coating. So in the end, this but how I have taken the information Riot has given to us about Demacia, and how I have made sense of it with regard to my expectations of the new Demacia.

Wrathof300Jul 20, 20172 votes

With regard to Mount Targon, it is actually comparable to the Trojan war, Riot has but revealed the behind scenes play the gods had in the Trojan war (thus, we are presented with a new Targon that has a deeping conflict occurring under the guise of a civil war). As such a large majority of the old lore has been kept, what has not been kept has been ‘modified’ to fit the new lore (opposed to being completely omitted), and then new items have been added on. An example would be Leona’s transgression “she failed to kill someone that she was supposed to, and thus had to face a sentence that would mean her death, but instead was saved my a Solari elder and taken into the Solari order”, what changed here was who she failed to kill, however, this fact was not removed from her lore, Sun’s role in her lore was modified to being present in a physical form. Likewise, with pantheon’s lore, up until he gives himself up to the aspect of war, he is the same person as the old lore with a few modifications such as, him having a different birth name and his relationship with Leona, Pantheon becoming the ‘god’ is but a new add on that came with the modified lore. “Unable to put an end to the war between Leona and Diana, Pantheon prayed to the gods of the celestial realm, when he was promised power to stop the civil war at the cost of his body and humanity.” And just like that, ‘god-theon’ is written into the old lore. Just as with Galio, this was simply done, because this is the way in which Riot has decided to tell the story for the Mount Targon champions. You said it yourself, power is used to shape the story and its events, it isn’t being used to make it more interesting, and thus with the reveal of these ‘celestial gods’ of Mt Targon, the new lore has been shape in a way such that they have a connection to celestial beings such as Aurelion Sol and other extraterrestrial creatures such as the Void. Which means you got this point wrong, that Pantheon has been made into this ‘god’ person because Riot wanted to involve Aurelion Sol, but it in fact the other way around, they were able to introduce Aurelion Sol because of the presence of these ‘gods’ in the Mount Targon lore.

Warlord DienekesJul 21, 20172 votes

Ahh attempting to tug at my heartstrings huh? Iliad is a decent read, though I like to think that after 3000 years we learned to move past a thing or two from the Ancient Greeks. Like, not having gods appear to solve plot points, and a general flow of storytelling. Like not having most of the story just be people talking about the events of the story. Man I hated it when the Ancient Greeks did that. We get it, Sophocles you know the story of the play you wrote. Move on.

Where was I?

What's interesting is that the the best of the Iliad kind of knows that having the gods show up to solve things feels kind of crap. For example, it's an interesting thing that the gods are sort of in the background, but during the BIG MOMENTS, they aren't there. When Achilles screams in rage over Patrocles' body, other than crying about it the gods don't do much. All the murder and rage is all Achilles. Well ok, Apollo does kind of get in the way to stop him from murdering the rest of Troy right there, but I'm more looking at the actions taken by the hero. While the gods are just thrown in to get in his way.

Same for the other two big moments of the story: When Achilles fights Hector the gods don't really interfere. When Priam finally convinces Achilles to release Hector's body: i.e. the whole point of the entire story. Once Priam gets into the tent with Achilles the gods are gone. How much worse would that ending be if it wasn't the words of one man convincing the other of what is right to do, but if the gods changed Achilles mind for him with their god powers. Completely miss the point that would.

Anyway, back on topic.

Likewise, with pantheon’s lore, up until he gives himself up to the aspect of war, he is the same person as the old lore with a few modifications such as, him having a different birth name and his relationship with Leona, Pantheon becoming the ‘god’ is but a new add on that came with the modified lore.

It is. And it is a terrible modifications that negates all the stuff that happens before. Even just as a storytelling metric. We spend pages learning about Atreus, only to see him get shoved off to be possessed by the gods at the end. Nothing learned. Not much understood. It just happens. Even Homer didn't pull that shit.

“Unable to put an end to the war between Leona and Diana, Pantheon prayed to the gods of the celestial realm, when he was promised power to stop the civil war at the cost of his body and humanity.” And just like that, ‘god-theon’ is written into the old lore.

I would find that just as stupid really. Again trying to negate the interesting parts of the story by shoving silly space magic into it. The struggle of the man dealing with the civil war IS the story in that sentence there. That's where the emotion and struggle is. That's where the core character dynamics and changes would occur. Writing it out by having the gods/random magic show up to solve the man's troubles is the worst form of writing.

Just as with Galio, this was simply done, because this is the way in which Riot has decided to tell the story for the Mount Targon champions.

Yes it is. And I stand by the belief that it was a stupid direction to take the story.

You said it yourself, power is used to shape the story and its events, it isn’t being used to make it more interesting, and thus with the reveal of these ‘celestial gods’ of Mt Targon, the new lore has been shape in a way such that they have a connection to celestial beings such as Aurelion Sol and other extraterrestrial creatures such as the Void. Which means you got this point wrong, that Pantheon has been made into this ‘god’ person because Riot wanted to involve Aurelion Sol, but it in fact the other way around, they were able to introduce Aurelion Sol because of the presence of these ‘gods’ in the Mount Targon lore.

Oh I definitely stand by my statement that power is being used instead of the actual tools to make a story more interesting.

The relationship hinted between Leona and Diana by IronStylus was definitely more personal and interesting than what it was replaced with. The relationship between Leona and Pantheon had more to play around with than what it was replaced with. The whole conflict was shifted between these people with their normal emotions and flaws and recognizable intricacies. And all of that is pretty much gone, and instead we have the vague mystery of what the fuck the space empire is doing. The new enemy is sort of the Void. There's no intricacy there. You stop the Void. Void bad. Where's the human emotion? Where's the conflict. Even the tension between Diana and Leona is gone (though I have a feeling they'll find a way to shove it back in).

Where is Priam sitting down with Achilles and speaking as men?

The only character that really does have that, is now Sol. The star shaping dragon. Only his enemies aren't the people we are invested in. It's removed from them. It's the gods that control them.

Woo.

Wrathof300Jul 22, 20171 votes

I would find that just as stupid really. Again trying to negate the interesting parts of the story by shoving silly space magic into it. The struggle of the man dealing with the civil war IS the story in that sentence there. That's where the emotion and struggle is. That's where the core character dynamics and changes would occur. Writing it out by having the gods/random magic show up to solve the man's troubles is the worst form of writing.

I was just pointing out that if Riot wanted they could have done it that way, but you have expressed your sentiment on the topic, of Riot's decision.

The relationship hinted between Leona and Diana by IronStylus was definitely more personal and interesting than what it was replaced with. The relationship between Leona and Pantheon had more to play around with than what it was replaced with. The whole conflict was shifted between these people with their normal emotions and flaws and recognizable intricacies. And all of that is pretty much gone, and instead we have the vague mystery of what the fuck the space empire is doing. The new enemy is sort of the Void. There's no intricacy there. You stop the Void. Void bad. Where's the human emotion? Where's the conflict. Even the tension between Diana and Leona is gone (though I have a feeling they'll find a way to shove it back in).

Where is Priam sitting down with Achilles and speaking as men?

Indeed the old relationships had more central purpose int he old lore, however I think the new relationships have potential. Now we don't know Leona's feelings toward Atreus, in an indirect sense he is responsible for who she became now, how would she feel meeting him as he is now? We knew that he grew to hate her, but is it possible we see their relationship build back to what it was in the old lore, they are the only 2 Aspects still on Mount Targon atm. Or perhaps. What sort of relationship would Atreus have had with Diana, he was very suspicious of the Solari in his lore. What is Atreus' relationship with Pantheon, has he truly been erased from his body?

I agree Riot, has taken some things from who the characters were before and only replaced them with mysteries. This reminds me however, of Kayn's lore, when it was release, people complained of the lack of Darkin info, but it wasn't Kayn's place to explain the Darkin and how they work in Runeterra, such is the role of what would be Rhaast's lore, unfortunately the Targonians have been placed in a similar situation, whatever is Targon is up too, is not of Pantheon's and Leona's immediate concern.

(I really don't want to sound like a broken record or like I'm trying to deny you the opportunity to disprove me but: we could be on chapter 1, these problems could have been intentionally placed to be later addressed.)

That being said however, I too see them shoehorning the conflict between Leona and Diana back into the story as their immediate feelings toward each other were unnecessarily hidden.

I don't know, but listening to you talk about Achilles' rage after Patrocles's death, reminds me of Atreus and his rage toward the enemies of Mt Targon. From Leona's lore we know that the host has to show some level of restraint over their powers, could it be that Atreus is still in charge however the anger he had bottled up resulted in him being a broken pipe for the power to surged out, resulting in him being basically the equivalent of a Aang in a constant avatar state? Just a random thought I figured I'd throw in.

But to summarize my thoughts, I think there is still room for the emotions, imperfections and intricacies of the characters to play a key role in their stories, however, you are indeed correct where these this were the main plot points they have been pushed around to make for a mysterious power to drive the plot. We have yet to see the 'gods' Mt Targon pull a 'game-changing' deus ex machina (Diana did make it up the mountain in one night).

I am almost certain we will see that exact scene where Priam (Pylas by some miracle) sits Achilles (Atreus) down and they speak as men, as brothers. Unfortunately, I am not as verse with Iliad as you, so with regard to that aspect, this is a far as I can talk about it.

Warlord DienekesJul 23, 20172 votes

Hmm, don't know much about Kayn's lore. Edgelord McScythe didn't really interest me as a character. But, I would argue, the lack of concern about what is going on with the space parasites is the concern, because it's the only concern left.

There is no other story there. Leona is now a symbol of one faction of the space parasite. Diana is the symbol of the other. Pantheon is the opponent of the slave of the space parasites. Sol wants to be rid of the space parasites.

And there's Taric. Taric's ok.

We are left with a story with no real understanding of the actual conflict. All the human tensions you agreed have been largely erased (though it can be written back in, but that's not exactly a point in their favor, you can write in anything. That doesn't change that the initial released product had no intercharacter tensions, the most we get between the lot of them is Taric says no one likes Pantheon in his in game taunt). It's interesting that you keep bringing up Atreus, when really he's a tertiary character in this conflict. Space Parasites and Star Dragons and the Void are the sides that really matter. The humans are mostly just putting about until the next section of the story comes up. Leona is trying to find Diana to talk. Diana is getting followers, but their role is so insignificant to the scope of the conflict I don't really see how they matter. Pantheon is ... doing fuck all, as is Taric really. They're all just in a weird limbo where nothing is happening. Their lore has nothing without the space parasites, and since we know next to nothing about them, their lores feel really hollow to me.

Which again, is contrasted to the nice (if sloppy, let it not be said I think the old lores were actually well written, they just formed a more interesting core story to be expanded upon) contained story they had to work with, and they erased all the good bits.

I don't know, but listening to you talk about Achilles' rage after Patrocles's death, reminds me of Atreus and his rage toward the enemies of Mt Targon.

Now, to go back to my point that I think the new lore is better written, we have this part. Atreus screaming and crying over his fallen friend at the top of Mt. Targon was the single most powerful moment in all 5 Targon lores. Bar none.

Of course, then the event was ruined when the actual "gods" came in and solved all of Atreus's problems. Now, this isn't technically a deus ex machina, because going up to see the gods was the point of the mission. But holy crap did feel unfulfilling. Get this awesome human event, full of emotion and loss, and just erase it. Seriously. Who thought that was a good idea.

Now, I have a feeling, that Pantheon's arc will be Atreus either getting his body back, or fusing with the parasite spirit, or whatever. None of that really interests me, but, yeah I don't think he's really gone. But, that doesn't excuse the writing literally saying he's gone. Either they're lying to us in their 3rd person omnisciently written introduction to the character. Which is a cheap way to make false drama. Or they wrote absolute crap. Neither of which makes Riot seem good in this situation.

We have yet to see the 'gods' Mt Targon pull a 'game-changing' deus ex machina (Diana did make it up the mountain in one night).

I don't think we actually can see the space parasites pull a DEM in the story anymore. DEM is when the solution comes without reason, or foreshadowing. And the vague power of the space parasites is so vague and powerful that anything they do has been foreshadowed. Maybe if they just blow up Sol without trying, that would count because the one vague rule we do have is that Sol is on some level more powerful than them. But Riot's definitely not going to do that.

But that doesn't make the story fulfilling. Having a bunch of characters with no real tie to the central conflict, is not fulfilling. Having the one character actually tied to this conflict (Panth) having no discernible personality and motivations of his own, is not fulfilling. And having that central conflict being completely vague and undefined for over a year now, is just draining. They had 5 lores to pin it down. 5 lores we got nothing. Hell, it only took 2 to set up everything about the Gangplank/MF conflict, or the Graves/TF. Meanwhile, we still don't even know what the space parasites even are, and why the hell they're weakening. It's just happening, a step or two removed from all the characters. And that's what they have focused the plot on.

Wrathof300Jul 19, 201712 votes

You aren't particular right to judge the new Galio, when you haven't played a single game on him, you have yet to even try to understand him as a character. Yes Galio has a new personality, however his new personality puts in a position when we can see significant character growth opposed to the old Galio, whose only flaw was that he was depressed, in theory, once he got over that depression there would be very little build on top of his character, which personality being superior is purely a personal opinion. If you paid any attention to Demacia when the Universe was lauched, Galio's new colour scheme was seen coming from a mile away, whether or not you liked it is a again a personal opinion, but you had significant time to consider the impending change. Old Galio being dead =/= new Galio is shit.

LostFr0stJul 19, 20177 votes

^This x10

I really miss old Galio, but new Galio is nice in a different way. He grows on you and he can protect people better now.

Valor BotJul 19, 201736 votes

I think most of the disappointment surrounding Galio's relaunch has more to do with his dramatic change of personality and less to do with his gameplay. Kit-wise, he still has an AoE taunt, still has waveclear, still serves as a tanky AP anti-mage, and still protects people. Lore-wise though he really is quite different from the original somber Galio.

ModWulf HelhammerJul 19, 20172 votes

OP's reply below seems to suggest he also thinks the kit changes weren't good and didn't fit

DoktorKaiserJul 19, 201710 votes

Kit more or less, the personality, the looks, the voiceover is what really bothered me. The kit part is more me wondering why they even changed anything when they created a generic boring kit, isnt the point of these vgu to create original gameplay for every champ ?? :S

GelsominoKillerJul 19, 20173 votes

I agree completely on the look and personality.

On the kit, I don't agree completely.

I think new W is a BRILLIANT way to translate his old ult into an healty spell. Also is current Q has some similarities with his old one.

What he truly lost was his anti-drug niche.

Star GuardíanJul 19, 20176 votes

To be fair, Galio before was unmemorable.

Velzard of KozJul 19, 20173 votes

Also, according to survey Riot used, most players were satisfied with his rework.

ArakadiaJul 19, 20174 votes

Remember Riot's survey about Dynamic Q? Haha they haven't made flawed surveys before.

SqkergJul 19, 20171 votes

The people who liked dynamic queue and the people who didn't were pretty damn even.

ArakadiaJul 19, 20172 votes

Show me your solid data and evidence first.

In addition their surveys were worded in a very biased way. It wasn't the data necessarily.

SqkergJul 20, 20174 votes

Show me the evidence that the polls were unreliable first. The burden of proof is on the accuser.

DoktorKaiserJul 20, 20174 votes

But most players never played or even saw Galio in their lives, I wonder what the result would be if they asked just Galio mains with a lot of mastery points. I can bet that it would be completely opposite.

AlienPrimateJul 20, 20174 votes

I had 100k mastery points on Galio before the rework. I now have 101k mastery points on him. I bet you can guess how I feel about the rework.

DoktorKaiserJul 20, 20173 votes

Hah I beat you, I didn't play him once and I don't intend to. I feel betrayed by RIOT honestly, they totally used Galio as a guinea pig...

SEKAIJul 20, 20174 votes

{quoted}

Hah I beat you, I didn't play him once and I don't intend to. I feel betrayed by RIOT honestly, they totally used Galio as a guinea pig...

No, it only means that at least the other guy, whatever their stance is, at least have some credibility to their opinion. You however have none. Because you literally by your admission, haven't touched the new Galio. Do you know what you're sounding like in this instance?

It's like you watched a movie trailer for and read a few threads on reddit about a reboot of an old title you like, and then wrote a thread on another upcoming reboots to urge it to not "screw up" like that this reboot that you never actually watched yourself.

No.

DoktorKaiserJul 20, 20171 votes

What exactly is the difference between watching new Galio and listening to his VO on youtube rather than playing it myself. Do you even understand how ridiculous you sound ??? If I haven't said it enough times, I DONT CARE THAT MUCH ABOUT HIS OLD KIT, I think the new one is generic, but I want my sad calm gargoyle, not this mentally challenged superhero ripped statue...

SEKAIJul 20, 20176 votes

{quoted}

but I want my sad calm gargoyle, not this mentally challenged superhero ripped statue...

You're probably just edgy. Only edgy people mistake and equate moodiness for depth.

Between the old Galio and the new one, stands an entity who has an existential crisis due the loss of its creator and the loss of its purpose and he weeps, and another entity who also has an existential crisis but for the fact his entire existence is so ironic on so many levels it's just a horrible joke but even then he still has no issues of laughing it off and to uphold a smile in front of others out of hope for himself and the desire to inspire others.

Preferences aside as here I'm talking about the objectively side-to-side comparison between the 2 settings, if you truly think the first is outright superior than the latter in terms of narrative depth with 0 contest, then the problem is more likely to do with the lack of your own personal depth and/or you're just way too diehard biased.

Boop Daddy Jul 20, 20171 votes

"If you truly think the first is out right superior..."

No, you're missing the point. Galio mains like Galio for what he brought to the table. We liked his story and his personality. Riot changed both. Guess what? They also changed his kit and his voice. May as well have made a different champion with a different name. Galio didn't need to die for this.

SEKAIJul 21, 20172 votes

{quoted}

"If you truly think the first is out right superior..."

No, you're missing the point. Galio mains like Galio for what he brought to the table. We liked his story and his personality. Riot changed both. Guess what? They also changed his kit and his voice. May as well have made a different champion with a different name. Galio didn't need to die for this.

"We liked his story and his personality" is just stretching the definition of "story and his personality" (note the bolded word). You see, as a consequence of his story, he was conditioned to NOT have a personality. And there's a problem, even though we know old Galio was just in a state of weeping hence it made clear sense to why he was a flying brick, but a character conditioned to have absolutely no personality is still just dumb. So to fix this, Riot gave Galio a character whereby he hides his weeping as opposed to having that be the literal definition of his character.

So what is changed? Galio is still having an existential crisis but now with an extra layer of character. Hell, with new Galio, we can actually gaze into the "sorrow" now as opposed to the old Galio where all of us kinda just guessed everything for him. New Galio has many quotes that details the kind of mental states he's actually in despite his shiny "it's all good" outer appearance. Such as (I quote) "I might be made of stone, but that doesn't mean my heart is.", "The guy that made me, he was pretty good right?", "I wish they'd chisel me a friend. Someone who won't break!", "I am not going back on the pedestal, not yet... ", "I don't know why life chose me, but I'm glad it did.", "Going to sleep means saying goodbye.", "Tragedy is worse when you can do nothing about it" etc. Sure he also has plenty of quotes where he's pretty excited to fight and kill shit, but rather than playing into how "happy" he is, it actually does the opposite, because it only shows what kind of ironic tragedy Galio's existence is, and how he's putting it up with optimistic attitudes and making the most out of it. It's fucking sad, it's brutal.

Again, none of old Galio's quotes remotely remarked on his mental state, the closest being "I will protect" and "I will not fail". In other words, WE guessed it for him, and of course, over time we'd imagine how sad Galio must have been and no way anybody can topple over his sorrow and he's wise and blah blah. No. None of this actually happened, we simply wrote them in ourselves because old Galio was literally 2 lines "A stone gargoyle lost his creator, he's sad and silent". It's not bad, but it's sorely lacking.

On the contrary, the new Galio is a more in-depth look at the original with a couple spins. It's more expanded upon and better illustrated than the original that's for sure, especially his sorrowful state of mind, and out of this he now also possesses a somewhat unique character of his own. That is a job well done for a writer, new Galio is a very well done iteration of his core if I were to say, while keeping him as close to home as possible.

.....................

As for his kit, the only thing he's actually lost during the transition is really just his on-hit shield. Sure, something's lost. But the rest of his aspects have been kept and improved. It also eliminated many of his self-contradicting gameplay aspects and settled for something now as opposed to his "melee but not really, ranged but not really, tank but not really, support but not really; I'm a mage but not really, I guess I'm a mage/anti-mage fighter (?) but not really as well". Similarly his gameflow where his W and E would be completely invalided with the cometh of mid-game, and he would always become a Q spam machine or a flash-mob who lingered around for the chance to flash in the middle of the enemy team to ulti, has been fixed. He remained his Q poke, he can chases better now but with restrain so that he's still largely immobile (as he can not be used to cross terrains) for the purpose of keeping him close to original, no longer relies on flash to do an engage, and his AoE taunt is actually kept (you'd imagine normally they'd probably just throw it away given its nature of being rather hard to balance. So if that doesn't show how serious they're doing reworks idk what does).

Like, what's there to complain about?

Sure his new ulti isn't exactly unique and brought nothing new onto the table as a unique perk exclusive to Galio, it's a twist on Shen's ulti, It's nothing awe-inducing but it's not bad either, it's just okay. But then again, old Galio's ulti was just self-centered AoE teamfight ulti #8371 with different twists along the likes of Nunu, Malphite, J4, Maokai back then anyway (though off-topic: Mao probably deserves his ulti to be changed back but I digress).

So, what's there to complain about? I mean, THIS is Galio, a better fleshed out version of his old self.

.....................

I mean seriously, for the sake of comparison: Many people say it all the time that WW is such as great rework and such, this is also used by OP to try and justify why Galio is supposedly such a bad rework. Meanwhile WW is changed just as much, if not more (given the only thing that actually carried over from his old lore was just "werewolf". His old character was completely scraped but I see nobody complaining about it at all), than Galio's transition in terms of his character (lore). And his kit is also changed just as much, though a little bit less, than Galio (he didn't have any lost aspects, as opposed to Galio's 1). They both received new gameplay elements, and both of their playstyles have been changed drastically from their original (build and tactics) though the general ideas are mostly kept. So what makes them so different that 1 receives high praises and the other is nuked from orbit?

Yeah sure, Galio is no longer just moody; sure, his on-hit shield is lost. But everything else is kept and directly improved and upgraded from what they were. Isn't that what it means to be a successful rework?

Galio didn't die, not by a long shot, he's living on perfectly. The only thing died is probably just our romanticised version of old Galio that never actually existed.

AlienPrimateJul 20, 20175 votes

I had 100k mastery when Galio was reworked. I now have 101k mastery on him. He isn't even within the same galaxy gameplay wise. Nothing about how he works is close to being the same. It actually bothers me that people think he kept his core features.

"He is still a tanky mage like champion who counters AP champions."

OK then, let's see how Rammus mains would feel if we deleted Rammus and released Malphite in his place. That is pretty accurate for how people who actually mained Galio feel about the new Galio's "similarities" to the old.

ModWulf HelhammerJul 20, 20172 votes

Care to give an explanation then, besides a really stretching analogy?

DoktorKaiserJul 20, 20172 votes

What the hell don't you understand man, they swapped a mage for a tank, tons of range AP nukes for a ton of CC engage. How the fuck is that even remotely similar??? Wow they kept his ulti, big fucking deal, its now spammable and you have 10 gapclosers so even that is not the same as flash ulti plays. I am not saying that Galio had a fun healthy kit, but stop pretending that its a similar champ, he was completely deleted and nobody gave a single fuck about people who enjoyed playing him just because there aren't many. And guess what? When new Galio isn't blatantly broken, he is never played just like before, they fixed nothing and managed to fuck his fanbase too in the process.

SEKAIJul 20, 20174 votes

{quoted}

What the hell don't you understand man, they swapped a mage for a tank, tons of range AP nukes for a ton of CC engage. How the fuck is that even remotely similar??? Wow they kept his ulti, big fucking deal, its now spammable and you have 10 gapclosers so even that is not the same as flash ulti plays. I am not saying that Galio had a fun healthy kit, but stop pretending that its a similar champ, he was completely deleted and nobody gave a single fuck about people who enjoyed playing him just because there aren't many. And guess what? When new Galio isn't blatantly broken, he is never played just like before, they fixed nothing and managed to fuck his fanbase too in the process.

But he was played as a tank? I mean, which part of old Galio was actually mage like outside of his Q poke? And shocker, you can still poke with Q. Omg what a big difference.

Like, you'd think a character who's prided for his ulti that makes people hit him and his primary playstyle consist of him stacking MR to counter mages to be a definition of a tank, or at least a mage/anti-mage fighter of some sort, right? But nope, suddenly old Galio must have been a "mage", almost exclusively. Did you play the old Galio, my dude?

They merged the old W and R into new Galio's W, then they smoothed it out by actually giving Galio an engage he desperately needs as old Galio had to either clunk his way into the middle of the battle by ~~running~~ "flying" into it or he had to pull the biggest moba-cliches of flash-ulti every time he does a serious engage (which then after that he'd toss a projectile and kinda just put up a shield and start punching people, totally a character which we call a "mage").

The only thing new to his kit is just his ulti. The only thing lost is just his on-hit shield (as let's be real, his team MS buff was like nothing until later into the game; which became nothing again as league got more and more mobility spells). Everything else was just some tidy up and expansion/alteration, just like what they did with WW. But apparently it's absolutely okay with WW, and it is just so awesome to you, but it's a problem when it's on Galio.

Double standards?

AlienPrimateJul 20, 20171 votes

Read my post below this one. I actually gave good reasons as to why I don't think they are the same champion. I have also never said that I don't like the new Galio, but he just doesn't compare to the old one. It is just that they are so different that Riot could have released new Galio as a totally new champion without touching the old one and I don't think anyone would have said anything about it.

SEKAIJul 20, 20176 votes

{quoted}

Read my post below this one. I actually gave good reasons as to why I don't think they are the same champion. I have also never said that I don't like the new Galio, but he just doesn't compare to the old one. It is just that they are so different that Riot could have released new Galio as a totally new champion without touching the old one and I don't think anyone would have said anything about it.

The problem with Galio was that literally nobody was playing him, because he was just bad on so many levels with his old kit.

As a diehard yourself, you may have some success with him given that you probably know the champ better than the back of your hands at that stage. But that doesn't mean he was a champ worth keeping in the game in the state he was in.

He has always had his problem where his ulti contradicted his entire existence by forcing people to AA him while he has always been encouraged to stack MR to counter mages; that in and of itself should already be a big red flag because it made no sense. He also had problems where half of his kit is pretty much useless after the first portion of the game, his W and his E, as he became a Q spam and a flash-mob by the end of mid game. That is bad kit design, and he was like that because his kit again just contradictory with itself in general, where he was forced to function at melee range but not really and function at a distance but not really; Riot simply chose one of the 2 when they were reworking him and it ended up being more melee focuses because well, he's still a stone gargoyle, and they still had to keep the taunt to somehow to preserve his design.

His new dash made him not capable of going through terrains because it's never meant to be used as a mobility spell, but as an engage for open-field battles, completely exclusively, in order to fixed his age old problem of not having any initiation tool besides running into them or flashing, but don't provide it with unnecessary characteristics that he doesn't need as it would break his mold.

Similarly, his W is only redesigned as it is now because let's be real, AoE taunt with no warning or delay of any kind is completely cancerous. So they added a delay to it. Big deal.

Galio's old Q was also used to clear waves outside of a slow that supposedly meant to give chase (which let's be real, Galio was terrible at giving chase in any scenario that isn't a straight line). And since he already has tools to help him chase better now by getting into their faces, obviously the kit budget aspect is removed from Q and it's now used for DPS and clearing.

The new ulti is okay. It's kinda the extension of his new E. it's new to his kit and it's okay I suppose?

Judging by the above paragraphs, it can be easily seen that Riot obviously thought at least that much through when designing the new Galio and did try to preserve original elements for as much as they could.

.........

You can have your preference on how you feel about the new Galio. Sure. But to say new Galio is a complete stranger to me sounds like you're clouded too much by nostalgia.

There is really not that much difference between say WW and Galio rework. Both of their thematic direction shifted, in fact WW actually shifted more than Galio in terms of actual character writing and visual design in that regard. Kit-wise, it's about comparable; WW has less changes, but Galio really only lost 1 thing in from his old kit, and both of their remaining aspects were modified to some extent with both of their original pitfalls compensated (giving Galio a dash and a ulti that replaces his old flash-mob ulti style into at least a more organic one, giving WW a dash AND CC outside of his ulti). But why is Galio so complained about and WW is instead praised?

I just don't get it.

KaRniVooL13Jul 19, 201710 votes

i didnt read anything but the title but i upvoted and agreed based on the title alone...

we dont have galio any more we have a completely different champ that stole galio's name

and i loved the old galio

i will say this... with the rework.. the gate keeper skin galio is one of my favorite skins.

and i really like swain... so

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

ModWulf HelhammerJul 19, 201712 votes

That's kinda the point of full relaunch scale updates. They happen when the old version just plain won't work in the game anymore

DoktorKaiserJul 19, 20175 votes

Oh really? Then how come Warwick feels the same just 1000 times more fun and original and more thematic. Galio was deleted, just like Sion, only Sion was a joke champ with extremely bad kit and Galio had a real personality with an ok kit.

ModKnightsKemplarJul 19, 201710 votes

As long as Swain is evil and transforms into a Demon Bird at some point, I think I'll be happy, tbh.

I want to see their vision for this guy. He's got so much potential and I just think he's not living up to it. Much like old Sion and old Galio. I know a lot of people wanted something different from those two, but I've never been let down by Riot. The last time they reworked one of my real faves, it was Taric.

And Taric turned out BEAUTIFULLY.

KaRniVooL13Jul 19, 20172 votes

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]