...I am now 100% sold.
LOOK AT THIS CONCEPT ART.
http://i.imgur.com/FrdxyRu.jpg
FUCKING.
http://i.imgur.com/gn9txXZ.jpg
SAVAGE. (↑ This is what her Vault animation was supposed to look like)
http://i.imgur.com/gHf4Oxq.jpg
(↑ Blinding Assault. Looks like a ground-targeted effect, or perhaps a three-hit passive? ;) )
Source: https://twitter.com/Iron_Stylus/status/870414424649027584
Sexualsaurus15 votesPersonally I think ranged is better on Quinn gameplay-wise and thematically, I use to do Falconry myself and when you're hunting you keep a steady distance away from your bird so it makes more sense in my head to have Quinn weaken her target from a distance while having Valor swoop in for the kill either from the sky or the trees. Making her melee may cause a lot of conflict with current Quinn mains as their champ is losing their ranged identity, the melee concept art does look cool but I think riot has past that point of no return now and it would be better to try and work on her current ranged hunter identity.
Valor Bot5 votesWoodsy ranged characters with pets are a common trope in modern fantasy -- we see them all the time in movies, video games, TV shows, etc. I don't think falconers necessarily need to be ranged in order to function in a way that makes sense, though. Sure, fighting from a distance is safer in all regards -- but employing both a firearm and a bird of prey simultaneously can go awry real fast if the falconer misses so much as a single shot (they'd endanger their bird of prey). This is why I think melee Quinn is sound from a thematic perspective.
Personally I think ranged is better on Quinn gameplay-wise
Gameplay-wise, Quinn has always tip-toed between ranged and melee. Before the rework, she had an entire melee combat form, and even now she has Vault, an ability that forces her into melee range. Not to mention her lowish attack range for a Marksman -- lowish compared to other Marksmen, that is -- though I probably shouldn't use that as a metric since she's no longer classified as one.
That's besides the point though. I think one of Quinn's most interesting aspects is her ability to play as an Assassin. Unfortunately Quinn has always been somewhat of a dysfunctional / half-assed Assassin. This is because proper Assassins employ escape mechanisms within their kit that allow them to exit the thick of a fight after entering one. Quinn on the other hand has no room for an escape tool in her power budget because she's a ranged character with DPS qualities. This means that until Riot gives her a definitive identity (Marksman or Assassin), she'll always be doomed to be subpar at either.
This is why I'm so desperate for melee Quinn. Not only would it allow her to become the functional Assassin she was intended to be from her conception (say goodbye to suicide-bomber Quinn), it would also finally give her a definitive place within the League roster, rather than leaving her as a champion who toes multiple classes and subclasses without being successful at any particular one. Let's not forget our melee top lane bros, who could finally rejoice now that she'd no longer have an oppressive laning phase.
It makes more sense in my head to have Quinn weaken her target from a distance while having Valor swoop in for the kill
I think this would be totally possible even with melee Quinn. There are a bunch of assassins in League with ranged abilities that allow them to poke or farm from a safe distance while simultaneously exerting pressure in lane (i.e. Katarina, Zed, Talon, etc). Likewise, the inverse of this could work also; that is, Valor serving as the initiator who weakens Quinn's targets first before she goes in and finishes them off herself. Both options make sense and I'd love to see the visual harmony and sense of teamwork it would create.
Woo, I've gone and made a wall of text again. I hope it explains everything.
Varnoc2 votesIf, assuming Quinn is turned into a Melee character, I see no reason why Quinn wouldn't be able to use her crossbow for some of her abilities.
~~If the kit is at all similar, Harrier marks will still be a thing, right? It wouldn't make sense for Quinn to carelessly launch bolts at a target with heavy plate or a shield, she'd wait until her opponent is vulnerable, but be ready for any up-close issues until that time arrives. ~~
EDIT: Feels wierd. A melee assassin with periodic ranged attacks? It's different for things like Ekko's blink/dash where it's an AA modifier, but for just straight damage it doesn't seem right.
Annnnnnd off to brainstorm melee Q&V...
Quick Edit: If Quinn would go full assassin as melee, she probably wouldn't need the bonus attack speed from proccing Harrier marks, would she? The bonus MS would be nice still, but the attack speed lends more to sustained damage, which wouldn't be her function.
LSmaster161 votesJust to add to this, if she were melee with ranged attacks on harrier, managing harrier in lane would become more important for harass and you could vault off someone, get the ranged attack, and then run back in with the speed boost and slow. Also, see cait net and traps or ivern q for how the ranged attack might feel.
Varnoc1 votesThe kit I'm writing out seems to be developing more towards a Skirmisher archetype than an Assassin archetype.
Could she be a skirmisher? It seems like she would favor getting the fight over with more quickly like an Assassin would, so I'm pretty sure I should scrap it, but it's turning out to be kinda neat, so I'm hesitant. On the other hand in her lore:
The killer escaped battalions of knights dispatched to capture him, but Quinn and Valor tracked and killed the assassin after a night of lethal traps, counterattacks and ambushes. She returned with the assassin’s blade, earning the nickname, Demacia’s Wings.
So she seems more like a scrappy, long-term fighter that lands the finishing blow when the opportunity presents itself, than a straight up-assassin (I think the assassin is more of a play-style development than a lore one)
Valor Bot1 votesI'd say Quinn's style is a lot more reminiscent of an assassin than any other class. Even in her concept art shown above, you get a very cutthroat-esque vibe from the pair -- particularly in this one, where Quinn can be seen hiding in wait while Valor moves onto the attack:
https://i.imgur.com/2qS3JHK.jpg
As showcased in her new lore, she also has no qualms with stalking her prey or sitting in the muck in wait for a perfect opportunity. It also mentions she prefers killing her opponents quickly and without fuss.
Sexualsaurus1 votesbut employing both a firearm and a bird of prey simultaneously can go awry >real fast if the falconer misses so much as a single shot (they'd endanger >their bird of prey).
Gun Dog hunting involves the use of firearms, how human and animal partners avoid these situations is to take turns when hunting their target. Quinn's gameplay currently shows this a lot as when Valor Flies to dig his talons into the target he then quickly evades out of sight, leaving the target vulnerable for Quinn. During her vault too after she has jumps off the target, they are disrupted leaving an opening for Valor to go in to mark them while she is in mid leap.
I've been playing Quinn before the rework and know the suicidal situations her kit creates as well. During that time though she was considered a marksman/fighter and even now though her kit still has those diver tendencies. Making her melee might not be the best solution as some champs such as Diana have the same issues where they're considered assassins but their kit puts them in suicidal situations like a diver.
The melee part of Quinn has always been Valor, they sort of were meant to bring two worlds together. I know riot has stated that having a hybrid champ causes balancing issues but I believe they should at least give it another shot. They've learned more over the years and would probably be even surprise themselves at what they can come up with.
Quinn's been a really good assassin throughout season 6 to patch 7.5 I believe, she may not of had the escape potential of other assassins but she did shine in other assassin aspects such as flanking, roaming and extremely high pick potential.
Also I want point out have you ever noticed that Quinn most of the time keeps her right arm down? The reason for this is because it can send unintentional messages for Valor so it's to ensure he doesn't try to land on her arm. I still don't think making her melee is the best idea but if they did I would strongly recommend they don't go with the double arm blades style you see in the early concept art because of a few thematic reasons:
The false signals I mentioned were she lifts her arms in combat and Valor could be like "brace the landing pad"
The having a sharp blade share the same place as Valor's resting spot could create harmful problems.
The glove itself is made out of thick leather, it's hard to move your fingers so it's not combat orientated that's why it is traditionally worn on your weaker arm.
If riot do decide to make her melee, I would recommend giving her a one handed sword and go for a more lord of the rings ranger style approach instead.
For real though what I say isn't set in stone, you might be right and if that's what you believe go for it. I'm just giving my perspective and both you and riot could prove me wrong, if that does happen I could be a very happy person myself :)
Valor Bot2 votes{quoted} Gun Dog hunting involves the use of firearms, how human and animal partners avoid these situations is to take turns when hunting their target. Quinn's gameplay currently shows this a lot as when Valor Flies to dig his talons into the target he then quickly evades out of sight, leaving the target vulnerable for Quinn. During her vault too after she has jumps off the target, they are disrupted leaving an opening for Valor to go in to mark them while she is in mid leap.
That's a good point. I guess my main gripe with this is that it's easy to miss Valor or forget he even exists when he only appears in game for half a second at a time. Overall he feels like a character that should have a strong visual presence in combat, striking marked targets in unison with Quinn and blinding foes as she goes for their vulnerabilities. Currently though it doesn't function this way because his visuals -- combined with Quinn's mechanics -- make it difficult for him to appear particularly persistent or impactful. This is why I love the above concepts by IronStylus so much -- we can actually see the pair fighting together tooth and nail. Enemies should really fear Valor when he appears on the battlefield, and that simply just doesn't exist in Quinn's current iteration.
I've been playing Quinn before the rework and know the suicidal situations her kit creates as well. During that time though she was considered a marksman/fighter and even now though her kit still has those diver tendencies. Making her melee might not be the best solution as some champs such as Diana have the same issues where they're considered assassins but their kit puts them in suicidal situations like a diver.
Diana is a suicidal poor man's assassin right now not because she's melee, but because she comes from a time when Riot had yet to establish a meaningful class and subclass system. Since then, they've developed a much deeper understanding of what strengths and weaknesses are appropriate for each class and which aren't. This is why some of Riot's more recent assassins have been so successful -- Zed and Ekko in particular which, barring any stray tank builds, have allowed them to function very successfully at their intended role of closing the gap on a priority target, bursting them down through a specific set of mechanics that demand meaningful skill expression, and jumping back out through their characteristic escape mechanisms.
Now that Divers and Assassins have been meaningfully distinguished I think it would be much easier to create a healthy version of Quinn that is much less all-or-nothing/suicidal and far more capable of reliably exiting a fight after killing an enemy. Again though, I don't know that Quinn will have the power budget for this unless she's reworked into a melee champion. I'm operating on the premise that her identity as an Assassin is far stronger and more interesting than her Marksman identity, and that it should take priority if that kind of choice ever needs to be made -- but I'm sure others will disagree with me, and I'd say it's fair to do so.
The melee part of Quinn has always been Valor, they sort of were meant to bring two worlds together. I know riot has stated that having a hybrid champ causes balancing issues but I believe they should at least give it another shot. They've learned more over the years and would probably be even surprise themselves at what they can come up with.
I'd love for melee Valor to return again. Tag Team was what originally attracted me to Quinn in the first place, and I've been in love with the champion ever since. I've kind of given up hope on it ever returning though just because most of Riot -- both here and out of the forums -- have responded exceedingly negatively towards its design, with claims that it will likely never return again.
Quinn's been a really good assassin throughout season 6 to patch 7.5 I believe, she may not of had the escape potential of other assassins but she did shine in other assassin aspects such as flanking, roaming and extremely high pick potential.
I agree, I just feel she's a bit too dependent on Lethality at the moment to find consistent success whenever Lethality's not overtuned, not to mention she has no real place in a team comp because her most favorable lane is precisely where tanks are best suited to go. Obviously there are exceptions and workarounds to this issue (put the tank in the jungle and let her top, etc) but honestly I think Quinn would be way more reliable and successful if she were specifically designed/tuned for the jungle or mid lane, not the lane that historically pushes out carries as soon as tanks are ever strong. I also think there's something to be said about her game health which could stand to be improved ATM, as well as the aforementioned aesthetic concerns and thematic pitfalls of the champion. Quinn was rushed during development and suffers from a weak execution as a result. If Riot can't find a happy medium between Marksman and Assassin for Quinn without just making her a poor man's version of both, then I'd say it'd be best if they just picked one and ran with it (unless they decide to push her in a completely different direction altogether).
Also I want point out have you ever noticed that Quinn most of the time keeps her right arm down? The reason for this is because it can send unintentional messages for Valor so it's to ensure he doesn't try to land on her arm. I still don't think making her melee is the best idea but if they did I would strongly recommend they don't go with the double arm blades style you see in the early concept art because of a few thematic reasons:
In my two years of playing Quinn I have never thought about / noticed this. This is amazing! I don't think it'd be an issue for the above concept of Quinn though since she seems to be wielding a single blade.
If riot do decide to make her melee, I would recommend giving her a one handed sword and go for a more lord of the rings ranger style approach instead.
For real though what I say isn't set in stone, you might be right and if that's what you believe go for it. I'm just giving my perspective and both you and riot could prove me wrong, if that does happen I could be a very happy person myself :)
Thanks for keeping the discussion polite and informative! I'm glad I could get your take and I hope that whatever changes come around for Quinn and Valor eventually do justice to the character all around.
Placentas4 votesThe way you describe falconry just makes me want her old ult even more. That's the way I would usually use it, weaken the enemy with quinn and then go in for the kill with Valor.
Furor Nexis5 votesYooooooooo this is pretty legit! I wonder what it'd be like if Quinn really was a melee champion!
The Soulforged4 votesI would say Quinn would've made a great melee-range hybrid champ, just because vault exists. It's such a cool ability.
VoraciousX1 votes[{quoted}](name=The Soulforged,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=hEiE1vHU,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-06-02T02:32:15.513+0000)
I would say Quinn would've made a great melee-range hybrid champ, just because vault exists. It's such a cool ability.
It might be cool for Quinn but that slow is so annoying to deal with.
Eternal7913 votesShe would probably be a whole lot less annoying if she were melee.
Big Lincoln1 votesnice 404s my dude
anyway melee is scientifically proven to be superior
Valor Bot1 votesMy bad, fixed.
KoKoboto1 votesI don't know. Actually for one thing the helmet covers more of her head in that concept art when compared to live. I think I would like the concept art helmet version more.
Chembaron Yamada1 votesI prefer Quinn being ranged, tbh.
For example: Vault doesn't really make sense for a melee champion. It is closing the gap dealing damage, but then recreating the gap again so you can't keep attacking the enemy? At least it looks like that in the concept art, she is still jumping off the enemy getting distance.
Valor Bot1 votesVault could make sense for a melee champion, but less so in its current form. The concept version of it shown above looks more like a two-part move that has Quinn dash in, stab an enemy, and then dash out. Essentially, it'd function as both a gap closer and an escape tool, with a brief window of time in between that would allow you to get your damage in before retreating to safety.
It could also be a missing HP-based version of Vault, allowing you to gain distance after finishing off a target since that's what an Assassin would want to do anyway.
Chembaron Yamada1 votesTrue, it can work out like that. In the end, it is all about taste.
I prefer her to be ranged thematically. We have chamions with animal companions
, it is nice to have a ranged champion in that manner, too.
And she has a niche as the roaming markswoman (no matter what Riot tells me, she is a markswoman for me), roaming assassins are pretty common.
And when it comes to lore, it has some good dynamic. Valor is melee, while Quinn is ranged. Did you read her story in the demacia update? I liked it alot.
Valor Bot2 votesYeah, those are some pretty good reasons for preferring marksman Quinn. I've always been a fan of assassin Quinn myself, and reworking her into a melee champion opens up a lot of doors for what can exist on her kit. Gameplay aside though, I think there would be a really cool visual parallel between melee Quinn and Valor, in that they'd both operate very closely and in similar fashions (i.e. ambushing enemies from unseen areas, striking their foes with hooked metal claws, etc). The line between human and hunter would blur a bit and I find that would be a fascinating dynamic.
Thefrostyviking1 votesSo essentially this is Quinn going full assassins creed with valor for assistance?
....'
Not bad.
mr Boombastic7871 votesThat looks so cool, kinda like Zed with an eagle, love it :D
IPromiseTomorrow1 votesMake her R transform her into melee
Then her qwe will change to fit the melee playstyle
I am even thinking of using vault (when she's ranged) and pressing R before vault ends so she becomes melee.
Scenerio.
She's ranged right now. And her R changes her into a melee champ, so here At Ranged form she dashes in and before she knocks back from target. Press R and she sticks to the target and keeps stabbing.
https://i.imgur.com/gn9txXZ_d.webp?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=high Badiclly This without her jumping back.
I think that would be a cool addition to make her more Savage and cuttthroat aswell as badass and experienced.
Valor Bot1 votesThis was her ult before the rework. Sadly, it seems to have been unsustainable :(
IPromiseTomorrow1 votesSomeday. She'll be awesome and fun to play and be the carry of the game Seriously like get being a melee champ cause she would be . fcn svg We only demand changes from riot hopefully it will be good
HalcyonDweller1 votesAs Valor Bot already said, this was how it used to be.
You are right, it felt extremely badass, however it was rather binary and difficult to balance. It was usually oppressive for opponents when Quinn got ahead.
I hope Riot finds some way to fix this and bring back some more of her badassery.
