Viktor Fans be like "We want Viktor to be a misunderstood villain, but..."

SaltyToplaneGoat·Dec 9, 2016·52 votes·3,350 views

"... we don't want him to do literally anything evil that would make him misunderstood in the first place."

Uhh... seeing the issue here?

70 Comments

RalanrDec 9, 201636 votes

http://st.elohell.net/public/chill/31224d593643f98b0b4aff0f9bfcc7e5.jpg

Relevant.

Malicious MetalDec 9, 201613 votes

Seriously though, he never killed anyone in the lore and his only crime was to steal the crystal from Jayce.

RalanrDec 9, 20166 votes

For all we know those people were already dead before Viktor started turning them into robots.

RavenhaleDec 9, 20161 votes

I'm curious about the funding of his project. If Viktor was stupid rich, I don't grasp why he would be in the College. He wouldn't need their resources to advance his ideals.

It stated he was working on a secret Zaun project, which somewhat implies he was working for someone else. I doubt someone would just throw money at him without any expectations of a return on the investment. I'm sure Viktor NEEDED that power source. It's quite possible that he took it from Jayce aware that other forceful measures would be required if his employer got involved.

RalanrDec 9, 20163 votes

That doesn't explain or justify Viktor sending machines to kill Jayce at their meeting. Hopefully Viktor's gives insight.

Papa AndreiDec 10, 20161 votes

and then Plot twist;

In Viktors lore we learn Jayce has been hunting down those he knows has connections to Vik.

o.o

RalanrDec 10, 20161 votes

Link?

Papa AndreiDec 10, 20161 votes

Rip forgot to add that "PLOT TWIST"

333lomDec 9, 20163 votes

I'm on my way to become a part of the scientific community in the real world. I hope I succeed. But the one thing I can tell you is that the respect you have there is** immensely** important.

Also, a detail from his lore reveals that he already had a private lab as a student. I bet he was stupidly rich. It even explains why he was naive, sheltered his whole life.

There are very rare power sources that cannot be bought by money.

ElectroScalarDec 9, 201627 votes

You completely misunderstood.

Viktor's gray morality comes from his incredibly advanced technology which can alter the world. Nobody knows if the altered world would be good or evil, because nobody can see that far. His gray morality is the consequence of him being potentially on the edge of madness, but never quite stepping over the edge.

All we ever got in recent lores is him presented as overstepping that edge. Nobody wants that.

Stop spewing attacks backed up by faulty logic.

ChaoticPineconeDec 10, 20166 votes

What do we have?

"Viktor sought to solve problems inherent to humanity itself, such as physical decay or illogical prejudices."

Doesnt seem terrible to me.

"However, the two reached an impasse when Viktor's design for the next version of the suit included a chemtech implant that would increase the wearer's strength output by tenfold, while also preventing them from getting tired, panicking, or disobeying instructions from their superiors. While Viktor considered this feature a brilliant means of reducing the frequency of construction accidents, Jayce found its indifference toward free will immoral."

His reasoning for developing this tech wasnt to be the king of the world - it was so people wouldnt hurt themselves by succumbing to panic and/or disobeying orders as a result of their irrational fear. At the end of the day, Viktor wants to save lives.

"The two nearly came to blows over the design and ultimately, after Jayce warned the academy of Viktor's invention, Viktor was stripped of his honors and ostracized from Piltover's scientific community."

We dont know why, exactly, he was stripped of his honrs and ostracized from Piltover. Maybe because Piltover has a very strong (and maybe in Viktor's eyes, illogical?) bias against chemtech? They love hextech but seem to look down on everything and everybody else, especially taking into account all the talk of nobility in Piltover and how they treat those beneath them.

"Since his expulsion from the Piltovan scientific community, Viktor had commenced work on a secret project in Zaun. He'd finally learned how to achieve his dream - how to eradicate disease, hunger, hatred."

Doesnt paint him as a villain in my eyes. This actually opens up a door to the misunderstood villain theme.

"Dozens of corpses, their skulls sawed open and hollowed out, their brains transplanted into an army of immobile metal soldiers, hooked up to the now-pulsing crystal." "Their eyes were dead, their faces emotionless. They were definitely Viktor's boys, alright: drugged punks from Zaun's sump level whom Viktor had pumped full of hallucinogens and hypnotics. Chem-stunted thugs who would follow Viktor's every whim whether they wanted to or not."

We dont exactly how Viktor got these people - maybe it was by choice, maybe not. After all, these arent noble and heroic folks - they are the lowest level of poor in Zaun, a city plagued by pollution and violence. Maybe their bodies and minds were already destroyed from years of drugs and pollution, and this was the only way to keep them alive. Maybe they were already dead and he found a way to reanimate their brain. After all, if Viktor wanted mindless automatons, he could have made them. If he wanted autonomous robots, he could have made them (He made Blitz, after all). To me, this is the biggest question that could open a lot up for Viktor - **What is the benefit from using a human mind, especially when an automation would have served the exact same purpose without all the hassle? ** An entire army of these "chemslaves" powered by the most powerful crystal in the world was basically brought down by a scholar with no combat training and just a shard of the crystal - an automation army couldnt do worse than that, so whats the purpose behind it?
Also, we arent sure whether or not this was a forced experiment or a voluntary one - in League lore, there are lots of people who voluntarily would give up their free will to serve their "greater good", especially with all the military power around. Take a look at the description of Demacia's military: "Their 'zero tolerance' moral code is strictly upheld by civilians and soldiers alike. In combat, this means Demacian troops may not make excuses, flee, or surrender under any circumstance." If thats their highest value, dont you think some soldiers would voluntarily undergo Viktor's experiment so they woujldnt succumb?

Lastly, remember what they did with Xerath and Azir. What we have is one side of the story - the story from Jayce's point of view. What we dont see is why Viktor did what he did, similar to how Azir's story doesnt show Xerath's side of things. When you hear the villain's story, suddenly they become more relatable - Xerath went from a psychopath traitor/mass murderer in Azir's story to a poor boy who was brought up a slave, who raised Azir to new heights for the promise of equality and freedom, and was denied that basic right over and over again ("Azir’s face was thunderous as he reminded Xerath that he was a slave and should remember his place." "The soured promise ate into what he was, and what he could have been. Denied a small, simple thing, the right to live his life.")

Xerath's story makes him human, relatable, and ultimately misunderstood as a villain. A simple misunderstanding - Azir, who kept his plans to abolish slavery secret, and Xerath, who felt that Azir lost his moral compass (after all, Azir confined in him everything else) - started the entire feud.

So basically what I'm saying is dont lose hope for Viktor.

FinikksuDec 11, 20161 votes

Bro!! I just went back and re-read Jayce's lore again and almost all you say is true (there is one line that bothers me but that later) Viktor is never a villain, but words around him paint him like that, exactly like the Institute, Jayce's words around Viktor make him look evil. After every line Viktor says Jayce says his own opinion on what he meant and we just assume is the true, but we never really heard what Viktor really meant. We got sold a Villain by a jerk Hero.

Anyway the line that bothers me is this Viktor sighed. He had only two words in response: “Kill him.” That... I can't understand the why. But I'll wait until hearing Viktor's side of the story to say my opinion on it. But thanks to you I have more hopes Riot really understands what he is suppossed to be.

PD: The suit they fought against for, was a constructions suit, superior orders make sense in that context, is not a militar suit where you cannot run from battle, is a construction suit to protect you from laboral harm.

OleandervineDec 9, 20169 votes

My biggest complaint about the new Viktor is how he contradicts himself. Why would someone who's life goal is to eradicate organic life and replace it with the near immortal and near perfect works of cybernetics and robotics be in favor of eradicating free will and thus, the mind? Free will and free thinking are what elevates humanity. Evolving out of an organic body into a robotic body **requires an intact, living mind to make it worthy of being an evolution. ** Removing the will of the evolved is not Viktor enacting a campaign of ideals to progress humanity to the future he wants, it's creating an army of mindless robots. They put Viktor into the one sided stupid trope that cartoon villains fall into - domination of a mindless world that is unfulfilled and contradictory to being a world leader.

Papa AndreiDec 10, 20163 votes

I think at its core, that is what most Viktor fans are truly riled up about, like me I am in the grey and have no real care for what happens to him ( I just want a good story.) But come on, the guy's sole life goal is to make humanity the greatest thing out there, and humanity at its core is free will. It just doesn't fit.

Ask the HeraldDec 9, 20169 votes

Hey, Kyoki, could you please not fan the flames anymore than they already are? This thread serves no purpose other than to prod at the beast that is Viktor's more vehement fanbase.

SaltyToplaneGoatDec 9, 20166 votes

proceeds throwing oil into the flames

Why? Because it's fun :P

Also it points at the core flaw in the logic of the fans, so it is a legit thread.

Ask the HeraldDec 9, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kyoki Shinkuro,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=YtNd2B42,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2016-12-09T20:41:29.146+0000)

proceeds throwing oil into the flames

Why? Because it's fun :P

Also it points at the core flaw in the logic of the fans, so it is a legit thread.

I get that you're tired of all the complaining (and should feel relieved that I'm one of the few if only hardcore Viktor fanboys who's NOT throwing embers everywhere), but mocking them doesn't make you any better. Try to stay reasonable, for Progress's sake.

SaltyToplaneGoatDec 10, 20162 votes

The thing is: I don't need or want to be any "better". All I'm here for is my own entertainment, and if there is a bunch of easily proboked hotheads... well, obviously I'm gonna poke them.

It's like seeing a giant balloon. And suddenly someone gives you a tiny needle. Not saying a word or anything, but the impulse is clearly there - as well as the curisioty as how loud the bang is going to be when you poke it ^^

Moral reasoning is something weak humans have. I have been augmented to not have it anymore. FOR THE GLORIOUS EVOLUTION! :D

Ask the HeraldDec 10, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kyoki Shinkuro,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=YtNd2B42,comment-id=0007000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-10T02:53:00.352+0000)

The thing is: I don't need or want to be any "better". All I'm here for is my own entertainment, and if there is a bunch of easily proboked hotheads... well, obviously I'm gonna poke them.

It's like seeing a giant balloon. And suddenly someone gives you a tiny needle. Not saying a word or anything, but the impulse is clearly there - as well as the curisioty as how loud the bang is going to be when you poke it ^^

Moral reasoning is something weak humans have. I have been augmented to not have it anymore. FOR THE GLORIOUS EVOLUTION! :D

So, then, you're being a jerk just to be a jerk? What? Why? What's the point?

Dextix LTDec 10, 20165 votes

http://uproxx.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/worldburn-top.jpg

SaltyToplaneGoatDec 10, 20161 votes

Indeed. I have absolutely no ulterior motivation in any way apart from me doing what I want because I want to do it. If I wake up one day and want to set the world on fire I will probably do so if it is within my power. That is, if I am not too lazy for it or if it would inconvience me too much to make it worth the hazzle.

Same applies to me doing things that help others instead of harming them. I do both because I want to, not out of any moral reasoning or law. Ironically, I am the anarchistic extreme of the concept of free will, the one thing the Viktor fans are holding in high esteem suddenly, much in contrast to their object of admiration how it seems.

It is a weird world, isn't it? ^^

Ask the HeraldDec 11, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kyoki Shinkuro,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=YtNd2B42,comment-id=0007000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-10T22:53:19.452+0000)

Indeed. I have absolutely no ulterior motivation in any way apart from me doing what I want because I want to do it. If I wake up one day and want to set the world on fire I will probably do so if it is within my power. That is, if I am not too lazy for it or if it would inconvience me too much to make it worth the hazzle.

Same applies to me doing things that help others instead of harming them. I do both because I want to, not out of any moral reasoning or law. Ironically, I am the anarchistic extreme of the concept of free will, the one thing the Viktor fans are holding in high esteem suddenly, much in contrast to their object of admiration how it seems.

It is a weird world, isn't it? ^^

That's not anarchy. That's sociopathy.

SaltyToplaneGoatDec 11, 20161 votes

Two sides of the same coin if you ask me, the rest is normative filler philosophers can spend eons arguing about.

In the end that is what free will, at it's purest form, is all about, and suddenly it becomes easily understandable why someone would disregard it as harmful or bad or as something that can be sacrificed on the altar of progress or evolution.

Some people come to terms with the conclusion that human existence in itself is sociopathy, often only restrained through a wide-spread lack of awareness of it. And then again some, like Viktor apparently, see this as a flaw that needs to be fixed.

You can't get the ideal of free will without the potential chaos it carries with it. But if you deny the side effects, you effectivly deny free will at it's very core. Tricky, isn't it? ^^

A Superb VillainDec 9, 201615 votes

Crafting a hyperbole via paraphrasing without conclusive evidence for the purpose of belittling someone is not conducive to a rational discussion.

RalanrDec 9, 20162 votes

^Smart words.

DarkfireAMDec 10, 20161 votes

"Brave words, for a man about to die"

Papa AndreiDec 10, 20161 votes

You damn debate nerds.

I like you.

Chromatic EagleDec 10, 20163 votes

no u

A Superb VillainDec 10, 20162 votes

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

DoktorKaiserDec 9, 20166 votes

We dont want him to be a villain murderer, we want him to be villain fighting the system with his robot army because the system screwed him over when he tried to fight it the right way.

LimrickDec 10, 20161 votes

What? A villain fighting the system is eventually going to lead to murder. The system will always try to destroy people like Viktor, and if you think he's an angel and wouldn't fight back, you don't understand how people work in general. He is still sympathetic, just not through Jayce's eyes.

TheBentOn3Dec 9, 20164 votes

I feel like the problem come from how in the old lore Viktors fatal flaw was that had too much of a moral compass, and because of that the world (and the fact that Zaun doesn't have any morals) broke him. I could totally see him going "You know what, humanity just sucks, the glorious evolution is no longer optional, all your base are belong to us." and that being a logical extension of his character.

In the new lore it seems to be implied that he was always a piece of work, and that he never had a moral compass to speak of. Which to me kind of lessens the impact of his character, and makes him a lot less relatable.

HellioningDec 9, 20164 votes

I don't know of any Viktor fans that want him to be a villain. Maybe an anti-hero.

SomethingUnknownDec 9, 20164 votes

Viktor fans want him to be a misunderstood villain, but after his improvements to his body he's never been anything more than a psychopathic murderer that wants to impose his ideals on everyone else. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

TeCoolMageDec 10, 20161 votes

¯_(ツ)_/¯

here is a \

INoble KnightIDec 10, 20161 votes

But he doesn't. People who get augmented do so of their own free will. He doesn't force them to do it.

ArcyvilkDec 10, 20164 votes

Viktor Fans be like "We want Viktor to be a misunderstood villain, but..."

No.

We don't want him to be the villain.

midnight oil24Dec 9, 20162 votes

I see the issue. I just don't want Jayce to get away scot-free for what he did. Both should honestly have jail time after Jayce's lore.

Stars ShaperDec 9, 20165 votes

Jayce has a moral compass though.

midnight oil24Dec 9, 20163 votes

So does Viktor. While he shouldn't have assaulted Jayce, and definitely deserves jail for that, he does the same stuff as Jayce, only to bodies rather than creating tech. He overreacted, but had put up with Jayce's insufferable personality and others forcing him to conform to their ideas, and he lashed out, just like many people do. Plus, we don't have all the details yet. It's possible that the bodies he was using for creating his androids came from a cemetery, or were donated by those who believed in him.

You can't just say someone doesn't have a moral compass.

LùmenDec 9, 20167 votes

Let's say that Viktor does have one. But he dropped it a few times.

Lintu PuckDec 10, 20161 votes

You say Viktor has a moral compass, but he wanted to upgrade the exo-suits the dockers had so that they physically linked together with stuff like chem-tubes, AND made it so the workers could not go against the orders of their superiors.... How does one have a moral compass and yet think that this ^^^^^ is OK?

midnight oil24Dec 10, 20161 votes

This is Runeterra. They have different moral standards there. Look at piltover, it stifles inventors that it thinks go against the gilded appearance of the city and leave the Zaunites to stew in their own toxins, but many people think that Piltover is okay. Runeterra is a different world than ours, and we can't just push our moral standards off on them.

Lintu PuckDec 10, 20161 votes

If the people of Runeterra were to get stories of our World from an omniscient perspective like we get of their world they would see in us in some areas what we see in them. Piltover is run by very high-minded elitists. The type of people who set trends and dictate how the city is run more then any actual government. You can see this even amongst High Society of our own world, if you know where to look. Zaun is the darker side of the same coin. For every Metropolis there is a Gotham, though rarely is one literally on top of the other. Where Metropolis and Piltover are run by their Lex Corps and various Clans, Zaun is run by criminals and gangs much like Gotham.

midnight oil24Dec 10, 20161 votes

True. But both societies are fairly corrupt, so people from both sides can't really be put into simple terms like good or evil.

Lintu PuckDec 11, 20161 votes

they can be very easily, if you are from one of those camps or agree with them.