Well, it's /ff from Narrative (Champion Lore "updates" on website).

TerraRising·Oct 3, 2014·88 votes·36,980 views

Riot just updated the champion pages to include Azir. Here is his champion page. As you can see, there isn't a long form to his lore, as promised by Narrative, only the short form. Additionally, every other short lore posted on the client (from Skarner and Amumu to Renekton and Xerath) has replaced their previous long form stories.

I wouldn't expect a response from Narrative, since they're not going to say anything and do as little as possible without a leader.

So, I'll accept this as a surrender from the Lore team as far as anything promised in last month's Dev Blog. No direct communication, no new content, no anything that the previous leader promised (but never attempted to deliver on).

316 Comments

RiotRiotNarsilOct 3, 201432 votes

I'll wade in a little bit here. Please trust me, we have not forgotten lore. We really are retooling, paying attention and doing what we feel is best for champion stories moving forward.

We're always trying to figure out when to communicate, when it's too early and what the potential risks may be. But we generally feel it's best to keep you in the loop, even if it risks some unease, even if the strategies are "in the works". That's because our relationship with players is really important to us and the feedback we get from you is critical.

I don't have all the answers you are looking for. I actually don't post on the forums as often as I want to. I'll poke some of the team on narrative and see if they can address your question.

I do want you to know, we're not leaderless. We're actually more excited about lore now than we have been in a long time. We're making significant strides, the team is rapidly evolving, but sometimes changes take a bit of time to get to you.

Thank you for pushing. Thank you for caring. Thank you for staying tuned. We are listening.

DG AshabelOct 3, 201419 votes

Not to be harsh, but what you've been doing so far is not keeping us in the loop, it's doing something and then announcing it's done without showing any interest in our input. That's not trying to create something your audience likes or wants, that's doing something you want and then trying to bully your audience into liking it by telling them that they have no choice but to accept it.

To paraphrase the metaphor employed by CupcakeTrap in another thread before, the reason why nobody believes you're listening to a single word we're saying is because you keep trying to shove your pastrami sandwiches down the audience's throats when the vast majority of it is asking for tuna.

TerraRisingOct 3, 201433 votes

A brave soul. I only hope you're prepared for the pouncing you're about to get. (We're so deprived for red attention that we'll jump on anyone who "wades in a little" around here.)

I'll wade in a little bit here. Please trust me, we have not forgotten lore. We really are retooling, paying attention and doing what we feel is best for champion stories moving forward.

We're always trying to figure out when to communicate, when it's too early and what the potential risks may be. But we generally feel it's best to keep you in the loop, even if it risks some unease, even if the strategies are "in the works". That's because our relationship with players is really important to us and the feedback we get from you is critical.

Do you mean "we" as "Riot Games" or "we" as Narrative? As a company, it amazes me to see certain Rioters interact with their community, even when it comes to clearly negative threads and comments..

Narrative, on the other hand, only seems to talk when there's someone behind that "Narrative Lead" or "Creative Lead" desk. Otherwise, they remain silent and never say anything at all. It's been at least a three-year cycle of silent contempt, empty apologies, broken promises, a lack of delivery, stunned reactions to the backlash of their proposed or implemented changes (Freljord, summoner removal, etc.), followed by more silent contempt.

I don't have all the answers you are looking for. I actually don't post on the forums as often as I want to. I'll poke some of the team on narrative and see if they can address your question.

Go ahead and try, but don't be shocked if you get a "no, we're not gonna do that," or if they laugh in your face with the contempt they seem to have for us.

I do want you to know, we're not leaderless.

If Narrative is not leaderless, then who is in charge to speak for the team?

We're actually more excited about lore now than we have been in a long time. We're making significant strides, the team is rapidly evolving, but sometimes changes take a bit of time to get to you.

Unfortunately, that statement does not measure when the company's Narrative lead just left, presumably because he just underestimated the backlash he and the rest of the team got for the Ret-con plan. We're used to things taking time with Riot. "Soon™" did not become a running joke because it's funny. It became a thing because Riot makes promises, then takes forever to get them going if they get to them at all (Both attempts at Magma Chamber, for instance).

And the phrase "rapidly evolving" sounds too much like people are leaving and getting replaced by people who don't know nearly as much about the champions and story as one would hope.

Thank you for pushing. Thank you for caring. Thank you for staying tuned. We are listening.

I don't know if I believe that last line. I'm sorry to say that, but we've been burned by Narrative a number of times already.

RiotRiotNarsilOct 4, 201416 votes

A brave soul. I only hope you're prepared for the pouncing you're about to get. (We're so deprived for red attention that we'll jump on anyone who "wades in a little" around here.)

I'm okay with the pouncing!

I know that our communication has not been great. That's putting it mildly. It's actually what we are attempting to fix and why we are communicating our narrative strategy. It opens up that dialogue.

By we, I mean Narrative and Riot. We all tackle things like this together. No team is an island. We discuss this a lot and our lore impacts many teams at Riot so we like to be in sync.

In terms of an answer to your original question, I think I can coax one out of the narrative team. I think you are right about wading in to controversial threads. We shouldn't shy from that.

In terms of our narrative lead, I feel some topics should remain private. But I will say, it's not about backlash at all. I think the strategy outlined is a good one. The right one. And that is what we plan to do. Also, that lead never strayed from a challenge! He has my deepest respect. But some topics are personal and should stay that way.

We need to be able to tell great stories about our champions in a really robust way. Some folks will disagree with how we approach it. That's okay. We get it. At the same time, we're excited by the possibilities. This is a journey, and we're committed to it.

We also understand that nothing we say right now will really matter. No words will make it better. The only thing that matters now is better stories. Better content. I know "soon" is frustrating. But I think in this case, time is the only thing that will prove our commitment.

As far as being burned, I get it. We deserve your skepticism but hope to do you proud my friend.

PhoenixSlayer13Oct 4, 201413 votes

Something I think would be very helpful: ask players about how they feel about champs as characters. What we think their most important character traits are, how we think their stories could be expanded, etc. I feel like that way at least we feel that we have input into the process, even if you decide against our decisions in the end (providing good reasoning of course).

I know that "design by committee" almost never results in anything good, but there are very passionate people here who do want to see the lore flourish, and who want to help Riot make the lore flourish. Sometimes it feels as though the lore team simply rolls out lore and expects us to like it, without asking us about it beforehand. I also know that you want to deliver new stories, but I feel that just asking us about general themes even would be incredibly helpful.

TL,DR: We want to have a part in the process, even if it's relatively small. Come get ideas from us, and test your ideas on us.

RiotRiotJaredanOct 4, 201412 votes

I too like this idea and wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

Frankly, it sounds like fun. Can we talk about Ashe? I'm currently borderline-obsessed with her. I'll have a chat with some of the other Narrative brigade, but Narsil is already pondering possibilities. He's like that.

ShadowKnight1224Oct 4, 201414 votes

I really like Ashe (wish she was dressed a bit more conservatively, but that's rather wishful thinking), and I also wanted to praise Riot for what they did with the Freljord, making a story about power and conquest, and having the three main people vying for control of the region be all female. That is amazing and I will always have goodwill for Riot for doing that.

I loved the idea of Ashe marrying Tryndamere for convenience (as a political marriage to strengthen her bid for the throne), and I would really like to see if she has feelings for someone else (I'm sure Trynd won't mind, he seems like a chill bro in that regard). It would also be neat to see what plans Ashe has to counter Lissandra and Sejuani's. Sejuani wants to entice more warriors to join her, and presumably conquer land by force (that seems to be her style), while Lissandra is a master of patience and subterfuge. Ashe would rather try diplomacy, but what will she do when that fails?

As for her character, I rather like that she is a strong woman with leadership skills, unmatched charisma and a cunning mind (I always read the implication that her ultimate and hawk indicated a person with great vision and strategic thinking), and seems to be ready to match Sejuani's strength and Lissandra's chessmastering and beat them at their own game.

Whatever you do in future stories, please do not damsel her. It would be so refreshing to have Tryndamere be her sidekick, support and friend, rather than someone who saves her or does the leadership thing. All I ask of the Lore team is that, instead of falling prey to "the old classics" and "the tried and true tropes", to please think of the people who don't get to see themselves reflected in stories. What happened to Sivir in the Shurima event was rather... disappointing. She became a damsel for Azir to save and then ascend. I am mollified by the interaction between Cassiopea and Sivir before that part, and how the first part was purely a story between two women (would have been nice if Sivir's mercenaries had included women too, but eh).

It would also be great to have more racial diversity (other than Karma and Lucian), and some champion romances that aren't straight (pretty much every relationship confirmed or hinted at has been straight: Kat and Garen, Lux and Ezreal, Trynd and Ashe, Tristana and Teemo/Rumble, etc.). That's basically what I want to see from the Lore team in the future.

Thanks for listening! :)

CupcakeTrapOct 4, 201422 votes

At first I thought, hey, if we can just get some of these Narrative people in here, they'll understand. Reading this thread, I see you coming in with misconceptions and problematic attitudes, I see the community patiently and repeatedly attempting to address them, and then I see you replying with a restatement of your starting position.

"We really need to do a better job of making lore. We're sorry."

"No. The problem is not your lore. The problem is that you're driving a bulldozer through the lore we've built up over years while you twiddled your thumbs. We want you to talk to us before you make these massive decisions."

"You're right. Until we put out better content, you have no reason to trust us. That's on us."

"No. That's not the issue. The issue is lack of engagement."

"It's true: we really should have released more lore by now. We're working as fast as we can, but we know that's not good enough."

"Are you reading our posts? We'd actually prefer that you slow down until we've had a chance to really talk this over, and talk about what other crazy changes you're planning on throwing into the mix. We'd also like to stop and ask you to reconsider some of your previous decisions."

"Don't worry: more Azir lore incoming!"

Or, to move on to a more substantive issue, you keep responding to complaints about the Great Retcon with remarks along the lines of, "Yeah, but we just couldn't tell stories with this all-powerful League of Legends that prevents all violence and war, and it was just weird having Champions only act when Summoners commanded them to do so. We want them to have agency." And again, and again, and again, we've explained that the lore community has already worked this out.

You obviously didn't really explore the lore community's work before you made your decision to erase the League from League, or to delete us from Runeterra. You show a certain predilection for flagellating yourself: I suggest you start using this, instead of vague remarks about how you're sorry you haven't "explained" your decisions better, in essence implying that this is a problem about the community just failing to comprehend your brilliance. Make that your new go-to reference when you want to publicly beat yourself up: that you completely failed to take advantage of the community's hard work. But you're still ignoring it.

Some folks will disagree with how we approach it. That's okay. We get it. At the same time, we're excited by the possibilities. This is a journey, and we're committed to it.

I'm glad you're committed to your journey. Now follow it, and get out of our way. You've abandoned the task of giving League of Legends a story. We'll take care of that. You go write your self-contained Ashe fic in a corner and keep on releasing those pretty graphics.

Ark Angel HFBOct 4, 20143 votes

[deleted]

CupcakeTrapOct 4, 201417 votes

I'm glad you're committed to your journey. Now follow it, and get out of our way. You've abandoned the task of giving League of Legends a story. We'll take care of that. You go write your self-contained Ashe fic in a corner and keep on releasing those pretty graphics.

Damn son you went deep...

But I share the sentiment in many ways and my pen backs you up

It's probably the angriest thing I've written so far. I feel a bit unfair: here I am, writing what I truly feel, when my adversary is not really free to speak their mind for professional reasons. It's like making faces at a royal British guard whose duty prevents him from responding to my taunts.

But then again, compared to the sucker punch TommyGnox delivered just a few weeks ago, I can't say I feel that this snarky comment of mine makes the question even remotely close.

Now I'm going to go write some more Factions lore that features the fucking League of Legends. Let me know when Riot starts talking straight. Until then, I'm playing a chump's game here.

CuixOct 4, 201411 votes

Honestly, I think you're entirely justified right now. You've spoken eloquently, politely, and thoroughly for dozens of posts. You've admirably presented a stance with which many of us can align, especially those of us who have been around for a longer while. In return, Riot has been... less than stellar, to put it lightly. If they won't respond to your concerns when you present them in accordance with their stated desires, then they just as likely won't respond to the aggression their silence has earned. And, hell, if they finally do, then that's success anyway.

C9 Scott Free Oct 5, 20148 votes

I don't want to sound like a prick here but go back and watch the Shurima videos but don't watch the visuals with it. The writing is extremely simple and well, kind of bad. It is written almost like you want five year olds to pay attention to the lore instead of the late teen young adult playerbase you really have.

DiahaneOct 3, 201410 votes

I'll wade in a little bit here. Please trust me, we have not forgotten lore. We really are retooling, paying attention and doing what we feel is best for champion stories moving forward.

We're always trying to figure out when to communicate, when it's too early and what the potential risks may be. But we generally feel it's best to keep you in the loop, even if it risks some unease, even if the strategies are "in the works". That's because our relationship with players is really important to us and the feedback we get from you is critical.

I don't have all the answers you are looking for. I actually don't post on the forums as often as I want to. I'll poke some of the team on narrative and see if they can address your question.

I do want you to know, we're not leaderless. We're actually more excited about lore now than we have been in a long time. We're making significant strides, the team is rapidly evolving, but sometimes changes take a bit of time to get to you.

Thank you for pushing. Thank you for caring. Thank you for staying tuned. We are listening.

Thanks for taking the time to post this, even if it doesn't answer neither our questions nor our pleas, but it sure is a step forward. At least it is some form of dialogue instead of having to shout at walls.

Nonetheless, without any substantial form of communication from the lore team on anything all this just seems like the team has utterly messed everything it could on the timing or, worse, that the team outright lied when saying we would get the updated and extended bios on the site. When dropping the retcon announcement you should at least have had those ready =/

Regarding feedback, I know Riot's way is to highly regard it, but when it has come to lore it looks like it hasn't been sought nor heard at all. The retcon decision was taken without feedback and all the complaints which spawned here on the boards have gone unanswered. It feels as if the lore team was part of another company and not Riot Games; we didn't even get a QA on the retcon.

RiotRiotJaredanOct 4, 20146 votes

We didn't lie about the new stories, but we definitely messed up on the timing. You're right.

In regard to feedback and engaging in dialogue, again, you're correct. We need to get better. We might not always agree, but we shouldn't shy away from the conversation.

CupcakeTrapOct 4, 201413 votes

We didn't lie about the new stories, but we definitely messed up on the timing. You're right.

In regard to feedback and engaging in dialogue, again, you're correct. We need to get better. We might not always agree, but we shouldn't shy away from the conversation.

I don't want to harp on this, because I don't want to punish that particular Rioter for just doing their best to answer community questions, but you in fact did.

We aren't as dim as you think we are. We noticed your bizarre crusade to eliminate all Summoner references from voicework—the Sejuani change was particularly telling—and the completely dearth of lore development concerning the League. It sounded tinfoil-hat-crazy, but we started asking ourselves, hey, are they really nuts enough to delete the League from League? Every sign points to it, but are they that detached?

So we asked a Rioter. They publicly responded, confirming that the League was canon, and it was simply a shift in focus to telling some non-League stories. I felt that answered the question.

Then, out of nowhere, TommyGnox quite casually announces that, because the poor little Narrative team felt "constrained", they were retconning the League and all associated lore, and divorcing the story of League of Legends from League of Legends itself.

i don't think that Rioter meant to deceive. I believe that Rioter reported what they believed to be the truth at the time they said it. But the rest of you did lie, by failing to correct this misconception.

As for "getting better", well, it's a bit late for that. "Well, yes, we've incinerated the lore the community's built over the years. But hey, we really promise to get better about talking before we flip the switch on the flamethrower." Yeah, that's not doing a whole lot of good at this stage.

LeeDarkOct 3, 201418 votes

I'll wade in a little bit here. Please trust me, we have not forgotten lore. We really are retooling, paying attention and doing what we feel is best for champion stories moving forward.

We're always trying to figure out when to communicate, when it's too early and what the potential risks may be. But we generally feel it's best to keep you in the loop, even if it risks some unease, even if the strategies are "in the works". That's because our relationship with players is really important to us and the feedback we get from you is critical.

I don't have all the answers you are looking for. I actually don't post on the forums as often as I want to. I'll poke some of the team on narrative and see if they can address your question.

I do want you to know, we're not leaderless. We're actually more excited about lore now than we have been in a long time. We're making significant strides, the team is rapidly evolving, but sometimes changes take a bit of time to get to you.

Thank you for pushing. Thank you for caring. Thank you for staying tuned. We are listening.

Stop saying, "Trust." It falls on deaf ears now. We've heard it too many times. Show us results, and you might start earning that trust back. We haven't been in the loop as far as lore goes for a LONG time. We have no relationship with the devs in that area, and they clearly are not paying attention to the feedback. This is not a new problem. Do you at Riot at the very LEAST understand that much?

We are largely NOT excited about the new lore. If it is much better written than the old lore, we may grudgingly come to accept it and learn to love the new stories of some of our old favorite champions again, but only after Narrative has proven they are up to the task. So far, it doesn't look good. As far as I can tell, you don't have any of the answers we're looking for, much less all of them. You don't even MENTION the actual topic of the thread. We were told the website would have detailed lore and the client was supposed to entice us to click a link and check it out. Coming in here and saying "Trust us, but I'm not actually telling you anything or answering your questions or concerns" is exactly the treatment lore fans have been receiving for YEARS now.

RiotRiotNarsilOct 4, 20148 votes

"Trust us, but I'm not actually telling you anything or answering your questions or concerns" is exactly the treatment lore fans have been receiving for YEARS now.<

I hear you. But I'm not sure what else I can say, because you are right. The only thing that matters now is content. But I would rather tell you what I know and engage then wait for that content to come out. In terms of the original question, we do want to answer it. I just want to make sure people with knowledge about the topic address it.

CupcakeTrapOct 4, 201421 votes

I hear you. But I'm not sure what else I can say, because you are right. The only thing that matters now is content.

No. That's the thing.

I commend you for coming by to talk with us, but I have to say: no. TommyGnox's blog post comment retconning the entire setting and divorcing the lore from League itself is an example of content that we would have been happier without.

I'm not urging you to stamp out more content more quickly. I'm urging you to talk with us before you lock in this new content.

As for the new backgrounds, yes, I'd like to see more detail filled in, but I'd really rather you guys slowed down and talked with us about it.

Just to provide some initial examples:

Amumu Are you retconning him being a yordle? Either way, can we talk about it? If the community strongly disagrees with your plans for Amumu, can we talk about adjusting those plans? Or is everything set in stone? Because if so, don't waste your time "talking to us about it" when your mind's already made up.

Skarner What about the entire Bracken concept? Is that going out the window? Is that being reworked? Is it staying the same? Whatever the case, can you provide an opportunity for us to discuss it, and for people who are into Skarner as a character to have their say?

I'm not complaining about slowness or a lack of content. Honestly, I'd rather you put everything on hold and took the time to talk with us first. Otherwise, this is just going to be another incident of Riot kicking over our sandcastles, then scurrying off into hiding to make secret plans for the next round of demolition.

RiotRiotNarsilOct 4, 20146 votes

I'm not complaining about slowness or a lack of content. Honestly, I'd rather you put everything on hold and took the time to talk with us first. Otherwise, this is just going to be another incident of Riot kicking over our sandcastles, then scurrying off into hiding to make secret plans for the next round of demolition.

When I refer to content, I don't necessarily mean the pace or the cadence of that content. I mean the quality. I understand many of the comments and concerns here. It's hard for us to make big changes then ask you to "trust us", as I just did a while ago. Without high quality content, why should you? I understand that sentiment. I'm hoping that as we start to show you things our communication and relationship will improve.

Legacy of XionOct 4, 20146 votes

I'm not complaining about slowness or a lack of content. Honestly, I'd rather you put everything on hold and took the time to talk with us first. Otherwise, this is just going to be another incident of Riot kicking over our sandcastles, then scurrying off into hiding to make secret plans for the next round of demolition.

When I refer to content, I don't necessarily mean the pace or the cadence of that content. I mean the quality. I understand many of the comments and concerns here. It's hard for us to make big changes then ask you to "trust us", as I just did a while ago. Without high quality content, why should you? I understand that sentiment. I'm hoping that as we start to show you things our communication and relationship will improve.

Hey there! First off my apologies for my harsh comment in the beginning of the thread - I wanted answers for a lot of things and shock value yaknow?

That out of the way, I neee to beg a bit. Kayle is my main. She was the first champion I bought a legendary skin for. And I am scared for her lore. I loved her alterjate world lore and her war with Morgana. I love how she was a League enforcer and always looked into things as far as possible before making judgements. And with how you retconned Nasus and his crocbro I am scared.

Please. Talk to the community about them before doing anything. As a kayle main and a kayle fan I dont want to see Kayle turned from a badass warrior angel of justice into an angsty angel with a sister problem. Give her a daddy problem! God knows the Kayle lore I am writing for the Lore Restoration Project will have a few choice words with dear father.

And Nasil. I thank you for diving into here. We are desperate for you all to communicate and listen to us. To engage us.

Thanks for wading in. If all your team had that courage the hatred and anger would fade.

Especially if you reinstate the Institute. :P

RiotRiotNarsilOct 4, 20147 votes

I'm not complaining about slowness or a lack of content. Honestly, I'd rather you put everything on hold and took the time to talk with us first. Otherwise, this is just going to be another incident of Riot kicking over our sandcastles, then scurrying off into hiding to make secret plans for the next round of demolition.

When I refer to content, I don't necessarily mean the pace or the cadence of that content. I mean the quality. I understand many of the comments and concerns here. It's hard for us to make big changes then ask you to "trust us", as I just did a while ago. Without high quality content, why should you? I understand that sentiment. I'm hoping that as we start to show you things our communication and relationship will improve.

Hey there! First off my apologies for my harsh comment in the beginning of the thread - I wanted answers for a lot of things and shock value yaknow?

That out of the way, I neee to beg a bit. Kayle is my main. She was the first champion I bought a legendary skin for. And I am scared for her lore. I loved her alterjate world lore and her war with Morgana. I love how she was a League enforcer and always looked into things as far as possible before making judgements. And with how you retconned Nasus and his crocbro I am scared.

Please. Talk to the community about them before doing anything. As a kayle main and a kayle fan I dont want to see Kayle turned from a badass warrior angel of justice into an angsty angel with a sister problem. Give her a daddy problem! God knows the Kayle lore I am writing for the Lore Restoration Project ll have a few choice words with dear father.

And Nasil. I thank you for diving into here. We are desperate for you all to communicate and listen to us. To engage us.

Thanks for wading in. If all your team had that courage the hatred and anger would fade.

Especially if you reinstate the Institute. :P

Hey. Don't apologize for being harsh! Lore is important and I've had my own freak-outs about it :-)

Okay, you know what I love about this post? You are telling me what you like about your favorite champion. That's the kind of thing that we love to hear. I'm thinking about this and the other post about how to engage the community in figuring out what is core about each champion. That's info we could really use even if it's as simple as, "Cold-hearted assassin. Forbidden love interest with Garen." (I'm making stuff up here clearly). Let me think about that a bit.

Let me ask you this. You love Kayle. So do I. If we told a story about her, would you want her thinking for herself, determining her own destiny and making mistakes along the way? Or would you want her actions to be controlled by a Summoner, giving her no real choice in the matter? Hey, hey... I know that's controversial! But I kinda want to know. It doesn't mean that players are not Summoner's, it just means that Summoner's are not in the stories controlling our champions directly.

You can feel free to slap me. I really am just trying to feel this out.

General comment. Thank you all for listening to me today. I appreciate it a great deal. Signing off for now but I will check back this weekend.

HellioningOct 4, 201421 votes

Riot, please stop using the 'Summoners control everything about the champion! they have no agency!' argument. Like, literally every piece of fanfiction I've ever read that's actually shown what happens in a League match has shown it to be a more symbiotic partnership. For example, the summoner gets to see the map and warns the champion about the general situation of the game, and they provide guidance, advice, and cool new magic (summoner spells), but the champion is in control of themselves in a League match. I know that these pieces of fanfiction and not official, but it shows that you could vary easily give champions agency while still making summoners important and powerful.

Even if they did control everything about a champion in a League match, champions do things outside the League, and summoners don't control them there! Just because Nami has to show up for a League match every day doesn't mean she can't spend her off time looking for a moonstone or making friends or getting drunk or whatever it is that she wants to do.

CupcakeTrapOct 4, 201418 votes

This, a thousand times this!

If Riot had really been paying attention to all the time, energy, and passion the lore community has invested in reworking and building up the lore of Runeterra, they'd realize that we've moved beyond these "puppetmaster" and "fascist mage overlords" concepts years ago.

DiahaneOct 4, 20149 votes

This, a thousand times this!

If Riot had really been paying attention to all the time, energy, and passion the lore community has invested in reworking and building up the lore of Runeterra, they'd realize that we've moved beyond these "puppetmaster" and "fascist mage overlords" concepts years ago.

If you take a look at the old dear JoJ you'll find that in fact it was them who never actually told that version of the story. They put great care in addressing the matter and always mentioned a symbiotic link. Somewhere in the discussion I've written down some references on this subject. They were all in "The Mailbag of Justice" part of the JoJ.

StarlighteOct 4, 201421 votes

Hey. Don't apologize for being harsh! Lore is important and I've had my own freak-outs about it :-)

Okay, you know what I love about this post? You are telling me what you like about your favorite champion. That's the kind of thing that we love to hear. I'm thinking about this and the other post about how to engage the community in figuring out what is core about each champion. That's info we could really use even if it's as simple as, "Cold-hearted assassin. Forbidden love interest with Garen." (I'm making stuff up here clearly). Let me think about that a bit.

Let me ask you this. You love Kayle. So do I. If we told a story about her, would you want her thinking for herself, determining her own destiny and making mistakes along the way? Or would you want her actions to be controlled by a Summoner, giving her no real choice in the matter? Hey, hey... I know that's controversial! But I kinda want to know. It doesn't mean that players are not Summoner's, it just means that Summoner's are not in the stories controlling our champions directly.

You can feel free to slap me. I really am just trying to feel this out.

General comment. Thank you all for listening to me today. I appreciate it a great deal. Signing off for now but I will check back this weekend.

No offense, but you are fishing here and it is obvious. Any number of stories could be created to prescribe a cure for Kayle's binding the the IoW, you and I both know that. She is a being from another planet, whose only connection to the IoW is her sister. (I'm a Morgana main, and love the character/dichotomy and the dual perspective of freedom of expression/tyranny, or however somebody wants to perceive it. What makes that story AMAZING is that both sides could be perceived as good or evil.)

Don't fish for responses like that, because if you only look for the evidence that supports your decision (Removing the IoW/Summoners) you will always find cause to justify your decision. It is a huge problem in debates that anyone who has taken a Debating class 101 could point out.

If you want to have a dialogue about whether or not Kayle's story is enriched or left lacking due to the fact that Summoner's bind her to their will, that is a reasonable discussion. Please, don't mask that intent though, because of all the things I care about the most in this game, it would be a re-imagining of Morgana/Kayle. (I could name millions of ways for it to be done wrong, and I'd love to discuss that but this isn't the place and if you want those opinions by all means make a thread.)

DiahaneOct 4, 201422 votes

Let me ask you this. You love Kayle. So do I. If we told a story about her, would you want her thinking for herself, determining her own destiny and making mistakes along the way? Or would you want her actions to be controlled by a Summoner, giving her no real choice in the matter? Hey, hey... I know that's controversial! But I kinda want to know. It doesn't mean that players are not Summoner's, it just means that Summoner's are not in the stories controlling our champions directly.

This argument is pretty much fallacious: champions were not controlled 24/7 by summoners in the old lore, they were linked to them only when in the Fields of Justice and that was a bit of a two way things - this was the explanation for the fact you always start at level 1 with the champion, because you have to synchronize. See Journal of Justice Volume 1, issue 21, where it's said:

The link between the champion and summoner essentially creates a “new being”, comprised in part of both of them.

Volume 1, issue 11 mentions the words "symbiosis". Volume 1, issue 7 goes as follows:

"I am a bit confused about the role of a summoner in the League's matches. I have heard from several sources that the summoner actually has full control of their champion during battle, and that the champions simply serve as ragdolls for the magicians to manipulate. Now, here in Piltover we are all big fans of Ezreal, or "The Prodigal Explorer " as many of us call him. However, the thought that our skillful champion may not actually be doing any of the fighting himself has upset a great deal of us. Can you shed some light on these concerning rumors?" -- Boush

Summoning is the most challenging of all magical disciplines. There is far more to it than simply relocating a being from one location to another. A summoner mentally and physically links with their summoned being (champions, as we call them), allowing for a fluid symbiosis. A champion is not a puppet of the summoner; instead, the champion is the executor of the will of the summoner. A champion is in full control of themselves, but they are fully aware of the importance and the necessity of the summoner’s will. A champion’s duty is to execute the will of a summoner with the utmost precision and execution.

Bear this in mind, Boush: a champion is never forced to be a part of a battle arena where their loyalties and beliefs are not considered. During matches where city-states are resolving disputes, a champion will never act against their own interests. Garen, for example, would never charge out of the brush at a fellow Demacian if the match were about resolving a dispute involving Demacia.

Now Volume 1, Issue 8:

"So I understand how strong our magic is to control a champion, but one thing has bothered me since I became a summoner. Do we really kill the champions themselves over and over again?" - Eraganus

Constructing a Field of Justice is a truly remarkable feat, and the magic at play is beyond the comprehension of all but the most gifted of magicians. Once a battle begins, the Field of Justice becomes a kind of microcosm. Within this sphere of influence the champion and summoner exist as one shared mind.

This does not mean that the champion is not in mortal danger. Death severs the connection between summoner and host champion and is an extremely traumatic experience for both parties. After the summoner has recovered, they can reenter the battle arena by completing the summoning ritual again. At this point the champion is revived on the summoning platform, once again entering the fray at the risk of their own life. For this precise reason, champions and summoners are a rare breed.

That is to say... the "puppetmaster" problem was already addressed a lot of time ago.

P.S: I know, hyronically there is no Volume 2, so no point in saying Volume 1. P.P.S: 6.23 GMT+1, and I'm here reading through the JoJ to find the quotes I remembered about. There's no hope for me.

PhoenixSlayer13Oct 4, 20148 votes

Idea just popped into my head. It's simple really.

Decrease power of Summoners. Make them more like advisors than anything.

Champions take part in League matches of their own volition. Sometimes it's to fight for their nation, sometimes it's to face a rival, sometimes it's just for the thrill of battle. Sometimes champions will refuse to fight for whatever reason, and the Institute understands that.

Summoners act as their extra senses. They relay information about the battlefield and provide champions with extra powers (see smite, flash, etc.). It's a less of a

"I need you to go here now" and Garen complies, since that's the Summoner's will and it's his duty to execute on that

and more

"Hey, Garen? My ward sensor is picking up someone in the bush next to you." Garen, being the fearless captain of Demacia that he is, readies his sword and instructs the Summoner to boost his speed (see ghost).

I guess it's less "I AM MIND MELDING WITH YOU" and more "You can hear me and I can hear you. I'm here to help you out." Think Oracle and Batman. Batman's out there doing the fighting and grappling and such, but Oracle's always there to provide him with information and suggest tactics that will lead to the best results. I think that can even lead to a stronger bond than "we are one," because it allows discussion, disagreement, and growth from conversation.

This way, the champions seem more "in control" and we still have a part in the narrative as these champion's advisors and confidants.

"Yo, Garen, you should be able to interrupt Malzahar's grasp on Sona with a swift strike to his head."

"Hey Kat, I think now would be the perfect time to jump in and fling blades like crazy."

"Singed, you wanna laugh like a lunatic with me?"

"Gnar, I'm picking up Skaner in the bush to your right. Be careful little buddy. That, or hulk out. That's cool too."

As for the summoning act itself: "Hey champ, I've got the summoning magic set up. You ready for battle?"

"Crap, I'm really sorry. That was a bad call by me. I'm gonna work my magic and get you back up and running."

CupcakeTrapOct 4, 201417 votes

Or would you want her actions to be controlled by a Summoner, giving her no real choice in the matter? Hey, hey... I know that's controversial! But I kinda want to know. It doesn't mean that players are not Summoner's, it just means that Summoner's are not in the stories controlling our champions directly.

You can feel free to slap me. I really am just trying to feel this out.

This is part of why we're complaining: Narrative keeps referring to this awkward version of Summoners and the League, which we all agree is awful.

Nobody wants Summoners to be evil puppetmasters forcing Champions to obey them. While your team was completely inactive, the lore community has been reworking that concept over the course of years. For example, the consensus now is that we see Summoners as "support", mages who help keep an eye out for Champions as they fight on the fields, giving them advice and aiding them with magic. Likewise, we don't see the League as some heavyhanded all-powerful cabal of mages, but instead as a supranational entity founded on a common consensus that unchecked warfare would destroy the planet—and constantly having to walk a fine line between failing to place limits on the warfare that does break out, on the one hand, and being so aggressive as to provoke a backlash that would destroy this consensus, on the other. We don't see Kalamanda as "Demacia and Noxus got in a fight, then the League overpowered them both because it is all-powerful, the end." We see it as a dramatic story of Demacia and Noxus bringing Runeterra to the brink of all-consuming war, the League risking everything on a last-ditch effort to prevent this, and their massive gamble paying off as Demacia and Noxus look each other in the eye and, grudgingly, acknowledge that they don't want to go down this road. Not yet.

So, in short, we spend all this time reworking and developing these concepts ourselves. Then, you come in years down the line and declare you're destroying all of that, and when we protest, you make arguments aimed at the ridiculous original version from years ago.

Do you see how that feels like a slap in the face, to borrow your terminology?

Chromatic EagleOct 4, 20141 votes

I'm not complaining about slowness or a lack of content. Honestly, I'd rather you put everything on hold and took the time to talk with us first. Otherwise, this is just going to be another incident of Riot kicking over our sandcastles, then scurrying off into hiding to make secret plans for the next round of demolition.

When I refer to content, I don't necessarily mean the pace or the cadence of that content. I mean the quality. I understand many of the comments and concerns here. It's hard for us to make big changes then ask you to "trust us", as I just did a while ago. Without high quality content, why should you? I understand that sentiment. I'm hoping that as we start to show you things our communication and relationship will improve.

It would help if we had a general idea on how you're rebuilding the world. Are you starting with the nations and then the champions? Only the champions based on reworks, new ones, etc.? Are you going to rebuild the timeline regarding the Rune Wars, City relations, and the events that are heavily ties to the League?

RiotRiotJaredanOct 4, 20149 votes

We're working on both nations and champions. As we develop the world, it's through the lens of creating the best opportunities for stories, which necessarily includes our champions because our storytelling should be character-focused. When we think about the world, it usually leads to questions about how conflict is created for our champions within those settings.

As we tell the tales of new places, we should also be ensuring that characters are the central driving force to those narratives. In the case of the Shurima event, we need to spend more time on the characters involved (and the other Shuriman champions who were not) in order to develop that focus beyond what we have delivered so far. We learned a lot from that event, including from the feedback given here and elsewhere.

Though events give a prime opportunity to explore characters, we want to also just create stories and content when we have ideas to do them. We will definitely be providing content for each of our new champions, for the larger reworks on champions (such as Sion) and more.

We're working tlowards the things you mention in regard to timeline, but we want to be able to deliver those happenings in the form of compelling stories. That's not to say we'll never have an explicit timeline summary, just that we want to deliver an enthralling world to keep track of along the way. We don't just want to say that the Noxian invasion of Ionia happened (and it did, BTW), we want to tell stories of its aftermath, how Ionia responds to this threat to its physical and spiritual identity and so on.

Chromatic EagleOct 4, 201412 votes

We're working on both nations and champions. As we develop the world, it's through the lens of creating the best opportunities for stories, which necessarily includes our champions because our storytelling should be character-focused. When we think about the world, it usually leads to questions about how conflict is created for our champions within those settings.

As we tell the tales of new places, we should also be ensuring that characters are the central driving force to those narratives. In the case of the Shurima event, we need to spend more time on the characters involved (and the other Shuriman champions who were not) in order to develop that focus beyond what we have delivered so far. We learned a lot from that event, including from the feedback given here and elsewhere.

Though events give a prime opportunity to explore characters, we want to also just create stories and content when we have ideas to do them. We will definitely be providing content for each of our new champions, for the larger reworks on champions (such as Sion) and more.

We're working tlowards the things you mention in regard to timeline, but we want to be able to deliver those happenings in the form of compelling stories. That's not to say we'll never have an explicit timeline summary, just that we want to deliver an enthralling world to keep track of along the way. We don't just want to say that the Noxian invasion of Ionia happened (and it did, BTW), we want to tell stories of its aftermath, how Ionia responds to this threat to its physical and spiritual identity and so on.

Well first, thank you for keeping Ionia vs Noxus canon. Problem is now you have to explain why Noxus invaded, why Demacia didn't interfere, and how Ionia won its freedom without the League. Would Ashe still be Queen of the Freljord without the IoW?

What is keeping these nations in a cease fire without the League? What's stopping another Rune War or even regular fights like Kalamanda? Are the other LoL maps, like the Crystal Scar canon? How without the League?

I want the champions to be a part of the story, but if the lore is separate from the game, use that chance to explore the world without them. Create non-champion characters and have them do things. Maybe they can be champions themselves one day.

What exactly have you leaned from Shurmia? Compared to Freljord? Do you feel like you have improved from those two events?

CupcakeTrapOct 4, 201419 votes

Well first, thank you for keeping Ionia vs Noxus canon. Problem is now you have to explain why Noxus invaded, why Demacia didn't interfere, and how Ionia won its freedom without the League. Would Ashe still be Queen of the Freljord without the IoW?

Narrative is needlessly rewriting all of these events because they "don't like" mentioning the League. They value their need to be "unconstrained" extremely highly, despite the fact that the League would not have prevented either of the "stories" they've told so far. They value it so highly that they're willing to completely obliterate all community-written lore and strip the game itself of its backstory. (Curiously, they both say that "sure, you're Summoners in the game" and "the game and the lore are completely separate", and at the same time insist on ripping out all the Summoner references from the voicework, so that Champions are now mumbling to themselves like lunatics. If they're separate, why not let the game keep talking about Summoners?)

Then they show up on these boards saying, "Gosh, we need to communicate more!" and "You're going to love these stories!" I'm not even sure how to respond. They came out of nowhere, demolished our world, and now start talking vaguely about how they're going to put some slick new condos in its place. And then when we stare at the rubble and exclaim that this is not what we wanted, they say that clearly they just need to talk to us more, because this is all just a big misunderstanding on our part.

No! You need to stop demolishing everything! You need to start asking us before you go on these rampages!

CupcakeTrapOct 4, 201418 votes

It's hard for us to make big changes then ask you to "trust us", as I just did a while ago. Without high quality content, why should you? I understand that sentiment.

I think I might have meandered too much in my prior post. To clarify: my point was that I'm not concerned about your ability to produce "high quality content".

Let me try to rewrite that post:

It's hard for us to make big changes then ask you to "trust us", as I just did a while ago. ~~Without high quality content,~~ Until we start giving you a chance to participate in the discussion before we finalize these decisions, why should you? I understand that sentiment.

I hope that clarifies my meaning.

We're not accusing you of being bad writers. We're saying that Narrative's approach seems to be:

Make some new lore in secret.
Release the new lore with a shock reveal.
Show up to invite people to ask questions about what you've already decided.
Vanish to start making more lore in secret.

This is what I'm criticizing.

CupcakeTrapOct 4, 201415 votes

We're always trying to figure out when to communicate, when it's too early and what the potential risks may be.

If the Narrative team is serious about community engagement, then you need to communicate with us early enough that the interaction can meaningfully affect what you do. Coming in when everything's already finalized, and all the time and money has been spent, is worse than silence in that it creates a false expectation of meaningful dialogue when you're really just hyping what's already written.

For example, if you were planning to, say, erase the entire League of Legends and all of us Summoners, and completely sever League of Legends from "its" lore, that would be something that would warrant discussion and debate. This is an example that many of us are still quite bitter about, and I think with good reason. We were given no opportunity to make a case in our defense, no opportunity to pitch alternatives. We were told that the decision was made and implemented. We were presented with some cursory allusion to "opening up room for new stories" and some accusations that the League had been "constraining" storytelling. And finally, we were given two new chapters of lore (Shurima and Sion), neither of which obviously required such a drastic and destructive retcon.

It's not that we weren't trying to start such a discussion: noticing that voicework was being stripped of Summoner references, and that no new lore (e.g. Champion bios) made any mention of the League, a theory began to circulate among the community that (as bizarre as it sounded to us) Riot was planning to erase the League from League. So we started posting threads asking about this, some more directly and others more circuitously. Months and months, perhaps over a year, went by in this fashion. (We actually did get one piece of feedback: a Rioter posted on Twitter that the League was still canon, but Riot was simply trying to focus on other aspects of Runeterra at the moment.) And then, bam, a quickie comment on a blog post rather casually remarked that everything was retconned and we (Summoners) no longer existed, followed by an equally casual (and equally astonishing) announcement that Riot was severing the link between the game and the wacky new lore adventures that Riot was going to be putting out Soon™.

Here's a thread concerning Bandle City. We currently have no clue what faction you'll set your sights on next, but my hope in creating that thread was that Bandle City was still far enough away that there's time for some real discussion.

At the end of the day, the Narrative team needs to decide whether it plans to follow the Riot model of community interaction. That's not meant to be merely rhetorical: there are good reasons why one might decide to not involve the community. But if you do decide you want to tap into the community's thoughts and energy, be real about it.

Riot-style community engagement is not simply about "softening the blow" or "breaking it to us early". It's not even just about "taking the time to explain Riot's decision". Those purposes may also be served along the way, but it's fundamentally a process of two-way interaction. Both sides should come into that discussion willing to hear arguments, evaluate ideas, and seriously consider what the other is saying.

We are listening.

I'm pleased to hear that. However, it would be much easier for us to contribute if you gave us more of an idea as to what's next in line, so that we can direct our attention to that topic before it's too late.

RiotRiotNarsilOct 4, 20148 votes

If the Narrative team is serious about community engagement, then you need to communicate with us early enough that the interaction can meaningfully affect what you do. Coming in when everything's already finalized, and all the time and money has been spent, is worse than silence in that it creates a false expectation of meaningful dialogue when you're really just hyping what's already written.

My hope is that by beginning to communicate that back and forth will start. Think of how much we've learned in the past few weeks. I know that the forums have been controversial regarding the strategy, but even with that, I view it as a good thing. Over time, the quality of that dialogue can improve.

DiahaneOct 4, 20148 votes

If the Narrative team is serious about community engagement, then you need to communicate with us early enough that the interaction can meaningfully affect what you do. Coming in when everything's already finalized, and all the time and money has been spent, is worse than silence in that it creates a false expectation of meaningful dialogue when you're really just hyping what's already written.

My hope is that by beginning to communicate that back and forth will start. Think of how much we've learned in the past few weeks. I know that the forums have been controversial regarding the strategy, but even with that, I view it as a good thing. Over time, the quality of that dialogue can improve.

I may have miscounted, but I've seen more threads here on the boards complaining about the removal of the IoW than threads in its favor =/ The population of the Story & Art board is of course a biased sample, but the bias is its strong point too, because those who post here are probably the most passionate ones about lore. If something was learnt on this side, is that a lot of people didn't take things well; at all. So the question is: is this grand strategy aimed more at getting a broader audience by standardizing the setting than at satisfying the existing fanbase? Did you run some surveys and discovered those who were not engaged in the past lore would be enticed by a new one delivered through more traditional means? (Hence the transition from the early JoJ and the encyclopedic style biographies had to first person narrators in some recent champions' bios) Are you simply planning to deliver the story as a line of products separated from the game, perhaps books and comics?

This questions are more rhetorical than actual, since even if they were the case you wouldn't probably be allowed to respond so...

RiotRiotNarsilOct 4, 20146 votes

So the question is: is this grand strategy aimed more at getting a broader audience by standardizing the setting than at satisfying the existing fanbase? Did you run some surveys and discovered those who were not engaged in the past lore would be enticed by a new one delivered through more traditional means? (Hence the transition from the early JoJ and the encyclopedic style biographies had to first person narrators in some recent champions' bios) Are you simply planning to deliver the story as a line of products separated from the game, perhaps books and comics?

This questions are more rhetorical than actual, since even if they were the case you wouldn't probably be allowed to respond so...

Ooo boy. Nope. I can certainly tell you we're not driven by surveys and we don't try to capture a broader audience. We make content for you. But many of our decisions are in-fact quite controversial and polarizing. We take some risks. I'm sure that's no surprise :-) I know this may be hard to hear right now, but we are actually making choices that we feel will benefit players, champions and Runeterra long-term.

HellioningOct 4, 201423 votes

If you make content for me, and if I don't like the content, you haven't really done anything.

I get your basic point, as simplying pandering to a single fan base basically prevents you from growing as a canon and leads to bad stories, but why would I, as a lore fan who enjoyed the old lore, enjoy new lore that's so different from the old? Like, if you were to tell me last year 'in a year, Riot will vastly change something about the LoL universe. What do you think it is?', I would have guessed everything else before 'removing the League'.

Because it's in the name of the game and basically the only thing going for it, as a canon. If I wanted to go read about warfare and battles, I'd read ASoIaF or LotR or something.

CupcakeTrapOct 4, 201421 votes

I know this may be hard to hear right now, but we are actually making choices that we feel will benefit players, champions and Runeterra long-term.

Rarely have I seen the Narrative team's paternalistic attitude expressed more plainly than in this quote.

Hey guys, it's for our own good! We don't know what we want. Bringing us into the discussion would just confuse our simple minds. If they keep it up, we'll learn to love it.

RiotRiotJaredanOct 4, 201425 votes

Hi Terra and all,

First up, I just want to talk about the thinking behind the use of shorter character intros in the client, for those who may not have seen previous conversations.

The current in-client champion page is not ideal for longer stories. One of its core purposes is quickly introducing players to a champion, and we've run into format and character limits that further constrain our ability to tell rich stories. Our plan for this space is to have a short, thematic introduction to the character, for players who want to quickly understand who and what they are, and then a longer story on the website that can be fully dedicated to being entertaining and showing the champions within our story world. Long-term, this will allow us to actually explore more story for each champion than was previously possible. We don't want to take story away, we want to do more.

That said, I get that this means nothing to you until we've actually delivered it. To be perfectly honest, we've run into a couple issues that have temporarily set us back. Firstly, the champion info pages on the web and in-client both pull from the same database, and the tech change required to implement the plan I described above is taking a bit longer than expected.

More importantly, when we knew we couldn't put the stories out to you in the way we wanted - and after listening to some of the concerns you expressed during the Shurima event - we took a long hard look at the prepared stories we had and, frankly, decided we could do better. Azir and Xerath's stories are being rewritten and we are already pursuing other opportunities with Shurima-related champions.

Essentially, we're currently out of sync on a couple of fronts: 1) having the content ready for you, and 2) the tech issue we're working hard to solve.

Right now you might be thinking to yourself, "Surely, you should have had this all ready to go in advance?"

The only answer I can give is this: you're absolutely right.

We've made mistakes and seen the unease it has caused, particularly at a time when so much change has happened in recent months and in light of the promises we've made.

As I've said recently on these boards, we care tremendously about you, the players, as well as the story of Runeterra. I also know promises that we're working to get you much more story are meaningless until you see results.

As I mentioned, we're currently hard at work on some Shurima-related stories (not to mention future content), and we want to get the first of them out to you just as soon as we can properly finalize them. If we cannot solve the tech issue within the necessary timeframe, we will get the stories to you in analternative way, perhaps even through this board.

We're making a lot of changes to improve how Narrative gets story to you and how we engage in a dialogue about it - we fully understand that we need to do better.

EnderForHegemonOct 4, 201413 votes

Ouch.

Guys... Even if a lore event is done quite well, one and a third 'lore events' per year isn't really content. It's just a hype event. Give us a story with a beginning, middle, and end. I get that the world is constantly advancing, and everyone is perpetually 'on a quest' but there ARE stories that are over and done with. Give us a story about How Yi became a Master, and reacted to the invasion of Ionia. Give us a story about how Jax defeated all contenders to become the Grandmaster at Arms. Hell, Gnar's story has been over for like ten thousand years pre-defrost. Give us HIS story. Just give us a STORY. Beginning, middle, and end.

RiotRiotJaredanOct 4, 20149 votes

You're right. It isn't enough.

Stories that begin, progress and conclude are what we are champing at the bit to do. The tales of our champions, their past, present and future, and the many ways we want to express them, are the things that we bounce into Riot to do each morning (as well as be part of teams that create new champions, update champions and a variety of other things that I'm afraid I can't talk about).

We're looking forward to delivering those stories. I understand those words mean little until we have. In the meantime, thanks for caring so passionately about these champions we also love, it honestly inspires us.

Thunder DreamssOct 3, 201417 votes

I love how the lore teaser at the top of the page hides all of 3 words of the full lore.

RiotRiotNarsilOct 4, 201412 votes

Yo!

I think if you get a closer look at how our engagements start, you’ll understand Riot a little better.

Yesterday a concerned Rioter forwarded me this thread and said, “Hey man, our players are asking some questions and we’re ignoring them. I want you to be aware”.

My response is, oh damn, I know that’s been a problem. I’ll jump in! Pew, pew, pew…

As I look at the thread, I know that I don’t have all the answers. I walk over to Jaredan and say, “Bro, there’s a question on the forums I don’t know the answer to. Can you jump in there”?

His response, “Totally”. We fist bump. It's that simple. I may not know all the answers. But I still want to engage.

Also at Riot, we like, sit together in many cases. Riot is an interesting place to make games. People here are not seeking approvals or unable to chat about topics. That's not what keeps me from talking about them. I want you all to have the legit responses from people really close to your question, such as Jaredan. That gets you the info you need. If I talked about it, I'd be making stuff up.

Also about fishing. Keep in mind this is the first time I've asked questions like this. So I’m genuinely interested in your response. You have thought about this a lot and commented a lot, heard it from other Rioters, etc. But my perspective is new.

Who can you talk to? You can talk to me. You can talk to Jaredan. Next week there will be another person who I think you will find very interesting as well. These are really knowledgeable folks.

Sometimes we’ll be able to give you the context. I want to be honest, sometimes we won’t. We don’t want to ruin the surprises coming down the pipe and we don’t want to promise something that doesn't manifest itself. Production has its up’s and downs (MC where?). Think of all the other content we create such as splash art, SRU, champion updates, etc. At some point player's see the work and we talk about it, but it's not always before we start the work. We learn over time as we release content.

Legacy of XionOct 4, 201418 votes

Yo!

I think if you get a closer look at how our engagements start, you’ll understand Riot a little better.

Yesterday a concerned Rioter forwarded me this thread and said, “Hey man, our players are asking some questions and we’re ignoring them. I want you to be aware”.

My response is, oh damn, I know that’s been a problem. I’ll jump in! Pew, pew, pew…

As I look at the thread, I know that I don’t have all the answers. I walk over to Jaredan and say, “Bro, there’s a question on the forums I don’t know the answer to. Can you jump in there”?

His response, “Totally”. We fist bump. It's that simple. I may not know all the answers. But I still want to engage.

Also at Riot, we like, sit together in many cases. Riot is an interesting place to make games. People here are not seeking approvals or unable to chat about topics. That's not what keeps me from talking about them. I want you all to have the legit responses from people really close to your question, such as Jaredan. That gets you the info you need. If I talked about it, I'd be making stuff up.

Also about fishing. Keep in mind this is the first time I've asked questions like this. So I’m genuinely interested in your response. You have thought about this a lot and commented a lot, heard it from other Rioters, etc. But my perspective is new.

Who can you talk to? You can talk to me. You can talk to Jaredan. Next week there will be another person who I think you will find very interesting as well. These are really knowledgeable folks.

Sometimes we’ll be able to give you the context. I want to be honest, sometimes we won’t. We don’t want to ruin the surprises coming down the pipe and we don’t want to promise something that doesn't manifest itself. Production has its up’s and downs (MC where?). Think of all the other content we create such as splash art, SRU, champion updates, etc. At some point player's see the work and we talk about it, but it's not always before we start the work. We learn over time as we release content.

Then learn. You guys pissed off CUPCAKE TRAP FOR THE LOVE OF POPTARTS.

Narsil. I like you. You came into a bad situation and did your best. Jaredan came in and did his best. But you guys are ignoring the issues at hand.

Summoners. The Institute. No one ever believed it was so omnipotent pantheon of the gods that controlled walking demigods. We are not these gods of olympus sending demigods on quests.

We as Summoners are men and women gifted with summoning. Powerful mages who can love, hate, fear. Die. Summoners are not omnipotent gods. They never were.

If you want our trust. If you want us to believe what you have coming is worth it, you retcon your retcon. You told the PLAYERS this: "YOU DONT EXIST" and we took that personally. So if you want us to trust you and you want us to believe in you, it's time you wrote for the fans. Not for a paycheck. Write for the Summoners and our Institute, my love of Kayle. My dislike of Morgana and my affinity for mages. Write us back into the story and auit trying tk seperate the gake and the lore. Separating a game and it's lore makes no sense.

I cant just separate the game Mass Effeft from its story. The game would be a nonsensical journey of me shooting guys for no reason and having amazing lesbian alien sex with a blue scientist with a gun. Pretty boring game. Bang bang bang BANG. NAILED IT. Why am I doing this? Wait. I have to go tona website to learn who I am who my bedmate it and why I am awesome?. Unless that was the story, which makes more sense then ten random dudes and dudettes beating the shit out of each other in a mountaintop forest for great justice and Poro-Snax. This isnt Scooby Doo. We wont do stuff for a few scooby snacks.

Get your head in the game. You're playing it wrong.

CupcakeTrapOct 4, 201410 votes

Then learn. You guys pissed off CUPCAKE TRAP FOR THE LOVE OF POPTARTS.

By the Mothership they have!

Legacy of XionOct 4, 201412 votes

Then learn. You guys pissed off CUPCAKE TRAP FOR THE LOVE OF POPTARTS.

By the Mothership they have!

Please accept my friend request. I must have the chance to speak with you! BY THE MOTHERSHIP oh god I love that. HASHTAG - #CupcakeTrap for Narrative Lead. Forever

CupcakeTrapOct 4, 201426 votes

What am I doing back in this thread? My jimmies are too rustled for this. (Fun fact: jimmies are a kind of sprinkle used on cupcakes.) One more post before I go back to writing this long-overdue Factions lore.

Sometimes we’ll be able to give you the context. I want to be honest, sometimes we won’t. We don’t want to ruin the surprises coming down the pipe

STOP MAKING EVERYTHING A SHOCK REVEAL.

The nice thing about surprises is that they can be exciting. The problem with surprises is that pretty much by definition they don't allow an opportunity for us to have input before they're deployed. It becomes some kind of demented guessing game:

"Hey lore community! We have something super-fun planned. It'll be kind of a shock, but we hope you'll like it! I will say it might involve Ionia. ;)"

So, what, we're supposed to start speculating on every possible change you could make to Ionia, then exhaustively list our positions on all those possible changes? Or do you expect us to just have giddy, giggly threads where we join you for a pajama party talking about how awesome Ionia is and how much we hope you involve our favorite Champions. Because, in case you've somehow missed this—though you could print this thread out, throw a dart, and have a good chance of landing on a sentence from someone expressing the same—when we have no clue what you're planning, we're all hoping on some level that these new changes happen to someone else's Champion.

Shock reveals are most appropriate when a universally positive response is reasonably expected.

Examples where a surprise approach can work:

A fun new cinematic in the style of A Twist of Fate or A New Dawn, which isn't a heavy-handed lore-change vehicle.
Some lore about a Champion that doesn't rewrite them.
A Champion bio rewrite that simply enhances style rather than drastically altering content.
Some artwork of a Champion.
Some other story that fits with, rather than tears apart, established lore.

Examples that are completely inappropriate as shock reveals:

Erasing the League of Legends from League of Legends.
Telling us we no longer exist in Runeterra.
Completely changing a Champion's backstory.
Overwriting a canon event, on which much lore discussion and community-written lore has been based.
"Let's just put it out there, before they have a chance to complain, so we can just say, 'well, sorry, that ship has sailed, but we'll try to communicate better next time!'"

Sneak DogOct 4, 201412 votes

I do agree, all these 'surprises' leave me mostly fearing the next one ever since the Freljord event.

LeeDarkOct 5, 201411 votes

"when we have no clue what you're planning, we're all hoping on some level that these new changes happen to someone else's Champion."

So much this. When they did Shurima, I was so very happy that Nasus was just the narrator, and only had the minor changes to his story that put him being from Shurima instead of outer space. Which, for all we knew of ancient Shurima at that point, they might as well have been the same thing. And I can play with the Galactic skin and still be from outer space if I want.