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[Suggestion Box] What do WE want to talk about with Narrative?

TerraRising·2/2/2015, 3:19:57 PM·69 votes·29,644 views

Jaredan, a Senior Writer at Riot working in Narrative, asked for topic suggestions in LordHippoman's thread.

I made a suggestion that this should be a separate post (that could be stickied), but that hasn't happened. So, here it is.

Fans of Riot's lore, what do we want to talk about with Narrative? What's most pressing on our minds?

Consider all topic suggestions on the table and we'll let Narrative pick and choose.

Just act respectful, please. There's a lot of anger and frustration here (from me as well), but we don't need to run anyone off before the conversation starts.

EDIT: Thank you everyone for your responses. I'm glad to see that there's so much passion for the lore of League and I hope that Narrative and Riot Games understands that. I hope that, while we may be frustrated and bitter, we do want the overall story to succeed and thrive.

Secondly, I chose to condense these questions into shorter, easier to digest formats. I don't think it's fair to simply copy/paste entire passages as Narrative can simply read them by scrolling down. Some may feel that I'm not being true to their questions, but compromises must be made.

Forum questions for Narrative:

  1. There are a lot of questions about what remains of the story, post-Retcon. Specifically:
  • Are the League Judgements and the old Journal of Justice no longer "canon?" Will the League Judgments play a part in future lore reworks?
  • What are the relations between regions and nations within Runeterra without an Institute of War?
  • What will happen to Jax, Cho'Gath, Brand, Fiddlesticks, and all of the other champions directly tied to the Institute of War? Will resolving these stories (along with Singed) be an immediate priority for the Narrative team?
  • There is confusion on relationships established by previous lore teams, from Katarina and Garen to Ahri and Wukong. Will these relationships just be abandoned due to the retcon or will they possibly be reestablished at some future time?
  1. What is Narrative's plan for releasing new content? Will new stories have to be tied with events like reworks, Shurima, etc? Will revised bios need to be connected with these events or can they be fixed independently? Does Riot (as a whole) want these new bios released this way?
  2. There are a number of requests for an updated map of Runeterra and a new timeline of events. Is this possible?
  3. What will be the overall tone of the new League of Legends world? Serious, comical, a balanced approach?
  4. When all tech and creative issues are resolved, what will be the best way for new fans interested in League's Lore to find these new stories? The in-game client doesn't have much in the way of linking fans to the story.
  5. What is the exact state of "summoners" in League, post-Retcon? There is much confusion on whether Summoners actually exist in the new story and what their role is, if any.
  • Related to that, what is the "League of Legends" supposed to be if not a device to resolve political conflicts. What is the player's role in the game?
  1. Why did Narrative choose to retcon the Institute of War out of existence rather than have an event that destroyed it? What was the debate that supposedly happened within the Narrative team? Why weren't lore fans included in that discussion?
  2. What are Narrative's priorities when rewriting a champion? Is there a priority on keeping as much of the original champion concept as possible? Will the change to Xerath's story (from original to current) be par for the course?
  3. Which champion bios are the highest priority for Narrative to rework? Does this priority list come from within Narrative, from Foundations or from some other source at Riot?
  4. Why is Jaredan the only person from Narrative posting on the boards? Isn't there a team working on this?
  5. What is the status on the tech issues preventing the release of revised bios and lore?
  6. Which parts of Runeterra and Valoran can we provide suggestions for? Is anything/nothing on the table for us to discuss with Narrative and/or Foundations?
  7. What is the actual state of Narrative right now? Without going into excruciating detail, how many current people were with Narrative at the time of the retcon and how many are new?
  8. What was the topic Jaredan was going to discuss with us before the Valoranian Death-Flu struck?

If anyone feels like I've missed a question posed here, please feel free to let me know.

Again, everyone, thank you for responding and keeping it civil... mostly. :)

EDIT 2:

Given the recent announcement in Ant In Oz's post about not being able to discuss story ideas for legal reasons, I think it's important to have this clarified as much as possible.

125 Comments

Melancholy Exile2/2/2015, 4:50:46 PM31 votes

I think what I would like to see discussed is Riot's plans for actually welding the old Runeterra to the new one. We've seen them expand on areas that went relatively untouched before, but now there are a number of continuity snarls in the lore where major events that are confirmed to still be canon took place despite what happened before relying heavily on the role of the League of Legends. It just doesn't feel right to shove these things into the "sort it later" pile while the focus goes entirely onto the new and shiny stuff.

I'd also like to see a discussion about how Riot plans to move forward in terms of inter-state relations. The Freljord, Shurima and now Bilgewater have all been presented to us in very isolated events that, Cassiopeia's presence aside, feel totally self-contained. I think it would be good to hear from them how they mean to go about picking up things like the Demacia/Noxus conflict again in the new Runeterra.

quazymoodo2/2/2015, 5:53:09 PM26 votes

The Lore needs to be clearly defined after the post retcon.

1.) The Institute of War is gone. Does this mean they scrapped all the lore in the judgements? Are they scrapping They battle of Kalamadas, the Battle of Ionia, and the Journal of Justice? Which parts will be left canon, and how much needs to be rewritten and reorganized for the faction tension of Noxus vs. Demacia, Piltover vs. Zaum, "Summoner's Rift" and the Crystal Scar, etc.

I've noticed since the retcon, they've been avoiding regions affected by the Institute of War's lore, and instead putting focus in less fleshed out areas like Freljord (home to a bunch of characters with loosely-connected lore, now brought together with Lissandra and the Three Sisters stories) and Shurima (Same thing but with Azir and Ascension.) You could also say with Harrowing, Kalista and the Maokai VU brought us up to date on the Shadow Isles a bit.

If they continue this, they may put more focus on Ionia of Bilgewater, or start delving into Uristan & Icathia (Time & Space) since they've done a good job fleshing out the lore in Southern Valoran.

It'd be nice to see Demacia and Noxus brought back into the story more, seeing how they've been neglected since Kalamadas.

Also, champions such as Fiddlesticks, Nocturne, Shaco, Brand, Ezreal, Zilean, Taric, and Annie all need lore updates ASAP. They all dealt with Summoner Magic in some way, shape or form, and if they've been retconned, everything they've done needs to be refocused.

2.) An updated world map would also be really -really- helpful. The Institute of War has been removed from the game, but is still located on the map. Also, areas such as the Fyrone Flats, Kumungu & the Plague Jungles, the Voodoo Lands, Tempest Flats, Uristan & icathia, Mount Gargantuan & the Great Barrier, Kaladoun & the Bubbling Bog, and most regions on the exterior of the city-states and regions are all severely underutilized, with little to no champion lore in each zone. There may be one our two like in areas like Kumungu and Icathia, but not enough to give it a real story. A planetary map would be nice as well for space since we have the angels (Kayle Morgana ) and the void in space/"alternate dimensions" (rito pls no).

3.) A timeline.

-Darkin -Three Sisters -Uristan -Shurima -Void -Rune Wars -Demacia, Noxus, Piltover, Zaun, Ionia, New Freljord, Bilgewater, Ionia, Bandle City, formation periods, internal wars, etc. -Kalamadas, Noxo-Ionian War(s) -Shadow Isles -Icathia -Et cetera

4.) Where are the Shadow Isles? Originally they were Northwest of Demacia and terrorized villages and hamlets, but with the Harrowing, it was located Southeast of Bilgewater, attacking the city. Does this mean that Runeterra breaks navigation laws, and the maps spins eerily around until it reaches Bilgewater? or has it's canonical placement changed?

5.) Is the yordle Mothership and theory of "yordles are aliens" still canon? or is the theory of yordle evolution on Runeterra (Gnar) now the new canon?

6.) Is Ryze's Scroll's maker Lilith still canon? Who is/was the Ruined King? What black goo corrupted Nautilus (and why is he the rival of the fish)? Who will give Nami her Moonstone? Is the next city-state Fizz's Aquarium-city?! Is Rammus an Ascendant Guardian/Watcher/Curator?! Will Blitzcrank's Dating Service still be canon?! Are ninjas and pirates ever going to get an actual story arc?! Rito pls!

RiotRiot Sweet2/3/2015, 12:14:52 AM23 votes

Thanks for making this thread TerraRising. Fistbump for solid post.

If you come to a consensus on points you'd like to discuss, can probably pass this over to the Narrative / Story team and get some feedback. Utilize that upvote and edit the main topic thread with the final top questions.

Hinagiku332/3/2015, 1:09:16 AM23 votes

I think we need a ton more explanation on what we should already know. This was a massive retcon and essentially throws out everything we've known for all these years and there has been little since then to establish...well, just about anything on the current setting.

Just a few main points:

  1. Have Katarina and Garen ever even met? Since Katarina no longer recovered Sion's body and every interaction between them has been retcon'd away it seems like they should be total strangers until we hear otherwise. Considering than they were one of the most teased romantic pairings in the game until now...maybe an update would be nice?

  2. Did the Noxus-Ionian War happen? A huge amount of major events and champion backstories are tied to it. If it happened, how did things turn out now that there is no Institute of War? Is Singed's war crimes still the reason Riven turned away from Noxus...or is she still with them now? How does LeeSin even make sense?

  3. Since champs like Brand Fiddlesticks ChogathNocturne etc. were kinda at risk of destroying the world...what's stopping them exactly? Are they all just a lot weaker now? In fact is there anything stopping the Void from just wiping Runeterra out of existence?

summoner 13 would be much appreciated :)

Pyro2/3/2015, 2:08:50 AM23 votes

I think a very good question that nobody here has asked yet is: How is a player supposed to learn about the lore?

In the times of Journal of Justice (and long after, even though it was obsolete), there was a "lore" button, right next to "shop" and "profile". Every player could dig into lore, learning about their favourite champions and the world of Runeterra.

Now the narrative is done through occasional promo content before champion releases. Sometimes it's promo sites (Sion's and Rek'Sai's were great at it), sometimes it's videos - but there is no easy way to get the old content. There is even no official way to get most of the "canon" lore.

And don't even get me started on the "Background" champion pages. These were frustrating at first, now they are just... pathetic.

Lore is what made me like this game and what made it different from other multiplayer games. Two years ago I swore to myself I'm not buying any RP until I see it back.

RiotRiotJaredan3/1/2015, 12:27:23 AM19 votes

Continued!

  1. What are Narrative's priorities when rewriting a champion? Is there a priority on keeping as much of the original champion concept as possible? Will the change to Xerath's story (from original to current) be par for the course?

Our priority is always creating the best character, story and experience possible for the players. There is a priority on keeping the essence of the character whenever possible. Sometimes we (Narrative, Riot, and the players) will disagree, sometimes we'll agree, but creating enthralling characters and stories is always the goal.

  1. Which champion bios are the highest priority for Narrative to rework? Does this priority list come from within Narrative, from Foundations or from some other source at Riot? There are a number of priorities, almost always dependent on the work being done by teams on ridiculously cool stuff that you will see soon. In some cases, very soon. Those priorities are decided by the team, which includes Narrative.

To help clear up some confusion that I think has arisen, Foundations is a team that includes members of Narrative. It includes Rioters from across the company, from various disciplines and numerous teams. Internally, when we say "team" we mean product team, a bunch of people from different disciplines who are making something for players. A discipline is a collection of people form the same craft. Therefore, Narrative is a collection of folks who specialize in character, story and thematic cohesion. When a member of Narrative works on Champion team, for example, they work with artists, game designers, producers and many more to help bring the champion to fruition.

When priorities are set, it is not by Narrative alone, it is by Narrative in conjunction with other disciplines who come together on product teams. Riot, as a whole, works very closely together.

I hope that helped clarify things a bit.

In regard to which ones we want to tackle the most, it's those champions who have been effected greatly by the changes to Runeterra.

  1. Why is Jaredan the only person from Narrative posting on the boards? Isn't there a team working on this?

It's a team that's not quite as big as you might think, mainly due to the rapid changes that we're working on in both structure, organization, process and staffing. We're working towards being more communicative with more consistency, and you'll see a few new names soon. For example, Loping Cinder will be having a chat about Bard as he was the principal Narrative member of the Champ team that's bringing my favorite cosmic wanderer to Runeterra. Essentially though, Narrative is a very busy place to be (it's very exciting too). What we want to speak of is new stories, champions and more. I apologize as I sometimes get the feeling that I'm sounding like a broken record to many of you. Until we are getting the stories to you with more regularity, it's challenging to be otherwise.

  1. What is the status on the tech issues preventing the release of revised bios and lore?

Solutions are in process. I can't give an ETA as when I've done so in the past, well, you know what's happened.

  1. Which parts of Runeterra and Valoran can we provide suggestions for? Is anything/nothing on the table for us to discuss with Narrative and/or Foundations?

There are just certain things we can respond to and other things we can't. It's not as much the topic as it is the way we engage about it. I know Ant in Oz riled some folks when saying that we can't read fan-fiction. I can understand how that might appear, but it's just a truth of being a professional writer. It's partly due to the legality of it, but also because using other people's ideas, even accidentally, is stomach churning to a creative writer. Talking about already created stories and characters, talking about the essences of people and places of Runeterra, it's all good. Pitching an idea for a story you want us to tell? Not so much.

  1. What is the actual state of Narrative right now? Without going into excruciating detail, how many current people were with Narrative at the time of the retcon and how many are new?

I'm not going to go into numbers, partly because it's misleading. The value of the number changes due to the context of need. What I will say is that there are some new members of the discipline, and there will be more very soon. The most important aspect, for me, is that we are a discipline that needs to respond to some amazing opportunities to bring unadulterated awesome to our players, and we are committed to growing the arse-kicking squad of talent to do it.

  1. What was the topic Jaredan was going to discuss with us before the Valoranian Death-Flu struck?

It was actually Demacian Death-Flu. It was Garen's fault for coming into work when he was sick. I was just going to ask what people wanted to talk about in relation to what champions are of most interest. Ant in Oz was kind enough to post along those lines so I could concentrate on why my stomach was crawling out my throat. I popped in to make a few responses about my ongoing adoration of Ashe (it's really getting unhealthy), but things worked against me spending time here recently.

I hope my answers have been of some use. I know they are not as specific as many would like (including myself, I'm a bugger for spoilers; I've been biting my lip about Bard for ages, and I still am). It's not because I don't want to answer in detail, it simply would be irresponsible of me to go into things that hard-working Rioters are waist-deep on right now.

Next week, as well as just catching up posting in a few threads, I want to put up a fun post about something I know a couple of us do in regard to getting to the heart of characters that we're creating, or when we're taking a fresh look at old favorites.

Thank you for your patience, and particularly I want to thank those in the community who have been striving to ensure our discussions are civil and positive. It really just makes it easier to engage on things without being worried about just how meticulous we have to be in crafting our responses. I know I'm learning my way with that one as my natural voice is a little formal, and if I'm being extra careful not to annoy it can easily be interpreted as "corporate."

And, of course, thanks to all who provided questions, please continue to do so.

For now though I have to run, my son dashed by and the gift he has for me just choked out a goat in Venezuela.

Cheers.

Shíny2/2/2015, 4:52:09 PM19 votes

In my opinion the priorities on the conversations that should be held with the community:

  1. Concerns over champions being retconned into different characters,conversations on characters themes and personality. The community loved this , lets continue that and make it a series of talks.

  2. The future of Runeterra's story, are you guys planning on a completely dead serious world? Where do the less serious parts of runeterra fit in?

  3. Lets talk about the themes and personality of the city-states and what we like and what we don't, also some conversations on what the community feels are the areas of Runeterra that deserve some love.

  4. Lets talk about some of the legends' relationships, are we gonna get some background on how in the heck some champion's know each other now without the IoW? Which ones the community actually feel are important to a character and what are some possible connections that should be explored ? (I feel like Velkoz would've sought out Ryze at some point )

Some more personal/selfish questions

  1. Can i get someone to talk about the removal of summoner references in game? If we're still summoners in game, why are we removing any mention of summoners in the voice-overs?
  2. The poor state of the league website: Is the planned lore page update the reason why the website is in such a poor state? If not can we please get someone dedicated on keeping it updated? I know its not very glamorous but come on, it needs to be done.
Salzigorimando2/3/2015, 4:35:13 AM17 votes

Hmmm, I understand the reasoning behind the retconn. I don't agree with it, but I think I understand why it was brought about. The idea , as I understand it, was to open up opportunities for "meaningful" story advancement for characters and the realm. I love me a well written story, so I was down with the idea of "real" story progress picking back up, all kinds of down. I was chomping at the bit to get more about the world of Valoran. I was excited to think about all the new stuff that was coming.

So the night I first read about it, I closed my laptop, had dinner and went to bed, mind full of the possibilities. Then, a few days later, while thinking about it, I noticed something that just floored me.

I didn't exist in the world anymore.

My allies, my rivals, my friends, all the silly little side stories and misadventures I'd thought up over the years, they were all gone. I had been kicked out of Valoran. I mean, without the Institute, there are no Matches. Without Matches there's no Summoners. No players.

And once it hit that thought, my mind raced through all the other things I'd lost. No more idle daydreams about hanging with your favorite champions in a believable setting, because you're not there.

No more wondering about how Brand and Nocturne , or Jinx and Urgot might get along, because they have no reason to even know the other exists.

No more wondering what your teams motives might be, because there's no need for a reason why Lucian /Thresh , Nasus /Renekton , Diana / Leona , Kassadin / Malzahar , Rengar / Khazix , Ashe / Sejuani , Volibear / Zilean(lol) , Shen / Zed , JarvanIV / Swain , Vayne / Leblanc , etc. are fighting side by side.

And then I reached the final blow, none of the champions even really existed anymore, they were all in a state of transmutable flux until they were brought into the new world somewhere.

My immersion was shattered. I've always loved the gameplay, but it was the sense of being a part of the game, even though only a small one, that really touched me, and ever since the retconn the world seems so much shallower. The events since it have been wonderful, both dramatic and interesting. Shurima's revival would only have raised the political tension to greater heights. The mysterious Shadow Isle's surge across the sea to blight the living, and deliver a merciless entity of pure vengeance, with no political allegiance, seems like a deliberate attempt to escalate conflict on the continent. The sudden arrival of a new Voidling, carving out huge swathes of territory for herself begs investigation. It's so enticing, so full of potential, and yet it feels like I'm trapped on the wrong side of the glass. I have to watch as all this plays out like a movie, with nothing to do but bite my thumb and wait.

Ok, sorry, I'm rambling, and I only wanted to say this:

I'm not calling for the IoW back, I don't want to undermine what you're planning, and I won't claim to know what's best for the game. I just want that feeling back. The feeling that, when I play League of Legends, I'm an actual part of that legend, however small.

Please, I adore your game, and it's characters, and it's world. Just please don't lock me out of it.

RiotRiotJaredan2/28/2015, 11:09:25 PM13 votes

Hi all, sorry for my absence lately. Thank you Terra for putting this list together. I'll do my best to answer what I can.

  1. There are a lot of questions about what remains of the story, post-Retcon. Specifically:
  • Are the League Judgements and the old Journal of Justice no longer "canon?" Will the League Judgments play a part in future lore reworks?
  • What are the relations between regions and nations within Runeterra without an Institute of War?
  • What will happen to Jax, Cho'Gath, Brand, Fiddlesticks, and all of the other champions directly tied to the Institute of War? Will resolving these stories (along with Singed) be an immediate priority for the Narrative team?
  • There is confusion on relationships established by previous lore teams, from Katarina and Garen to Ahri and Wukong. Will these relationships just be abandoned due to the retcon or will they possibly be reestablished at some future time?

The Judgements and the JoJ cannot be counted as canon any longer. However, we will be drawing upon those stories as we explore the new world and many things will be easily recognizable to aficionados of the previous lore. Each current and previous interpretation of the champions will be included in our thinking as we move forward.

Champions who are directly linked to the IoW to the point their stories are inextricable will receive an update to their stories to reflect the change to the story world of Runeterra.

Relationships that have been established previously will continue if the story is compelling (personally, I'm a big fan of Garen and Kat). In fact, how our champions interact with each other will drive a lot of stories and should impact the world around them. They're not your average bunch of folks, after all.

The relations between regions and factions without the Institute of War will be entirely dependent on the individual personalities and societies. Similar conflicts that you know of will occur, they just won't be passing through the filter or buffer of the IoW. Noxus and Ionia are not the best of friends, for example. How are Piltover and Zaun functioning in relation to each other? What kind of intrigue and friction occurs between them? Where are they similar? We will explore those ideas through stories driven by characters both longstanding and new.

  1. What is Narrative's plan for releasing new content? Will new stories have to be tied with events like reworks, Shurima, etc? Will revised bios need to be connected with these events or can they be fixed independently? Does Riot (as a whole) want these new bios released this way?

New stories do not have to be tied to events like Shurima, etc. To give you the reason why this happens, it's simply an optimal use of resources. The Narrative discipline does not work independently from the rest of Riot. We produce stories, characters and drive thematic cohesion across a variety of teams. If one of those teams (Events, for example), is working on something like The Harrowing, it's a good opportunity for the Narrative folks working on it to also do the work on updating related bios. I can tell you that we're working on developing a bio format after listening to your feedback on the shorter character intros. We're also working with a team on implementing them, but we have a lot of champs and that will take some time.

  1. There are a number of requests for an updated map of Runeterra and a new timeline of events. Is this possible?

Yes it is, and there have been some glimpses. You may have seen the Bilgewater map that was released at the time of The Harrowing as well as a look at the once great empire of Shurima with the release of Rek'Sai. A timeline of events is one of the aspects of Runeterra that is being explored, but is not currently ready.

  1. What will be the overall tone of the new League of Legends world? Serious, comical, a balanced approach? All of the above, depending on the story and champion involved. League of Legends' tone is a kaleidoscope, it just depends on the story being told at the time and the style we use to tell it.
  1. When all tech and creative issues are resolved, what will be the best way for new fans interested in League's Lore to find these new stories? The in-game client doesn't have much in the way of linking fans to the story.

Currently, we are planning on the client being a place for players to get a good initial understanding of the champion and then have stories that put the character through his or her paces on the web. A link from client to the champion's web page is part of the plan whose implementation is currently being sorted out.

  1. What is the exact state of "summoners" in League, post-Retcon? There is much confusion on whether Summoners actually exist in the new story and what their role is, if any.
  • Related to that, what is the "League of Legends" supposed to be if not a device to resolve political conflicts. What is the player's role in the game?

Summoners are a part of the story of Runeterra, they have not been removed as a part of the world, but they are different. I can't speak to their role due to work being done in that regard that will be seen in the future. Sorry to be so vague, it's just not ready for us to release yet.

The player's role in the game is as the game defines it. The context that the story world brings to the game is something we will be talking about, but not just yet, sorry.

  1. Why did Narrative choose to retcon the Institute of War out of existence rather than have an event that destroyed it? What was the debate that supposedly happened within the Narrative team? Why weren't lore fans included in that discussion?

First of all, the decision to remove the IoW and begin a new story world of Runeterra was not Narrative's alone. Rioters from many different teams have been involved in the discussion. It essentially came down to the difficulties beyond just removing the IoW. If we just wanted to remove the IoW, destroying it through some disaster, political maneuvering, or war, it would have been its own story to explore. However, there were a number of problems this caused with other plans we have for stories going forward.

In addition, there are a number of things unrelated to the IoW that we want to work on that individually could have enough of a profound effect that they would themselves necessitate the action we took. At the very least, many of those changes would necessitate creating stories just to explain changes, which is never a good starting point for a story. There were many threads that could cause many other things to unravel. With all that in mind, it was decided that an approach that would take care of all of those issues at once, and free Riot to build anew, was the best way to go. Hence the decision that was made. I'm sorry I can't go into each of the individual cases as they're pertinent to stories we plan on telling.

To be continued!

Trylobyte2/3/2015, 1:11:01 PM13 votes

How is the lore going to evolve? One thing I liked about the JoJ in particular was it proved that the world wasn't static and that champions did go out and do things and were generally normal people. It was full of delightful little things, serious and silly, that just made the world seem alive. Things like...

  • Gragas and Tryndamere working out a trade agreement.
  • Garen saving Katarina's life during the Kalamanda incident.
  • Blitzcrank's Dating Service pairing Rammus with a cactus.
  • Morgana trying to politicize a swimsuit contest.
  • Veigar trying to steal the Yordle mothership with balloons.
  • Janna stealing Nidalee's boyfriend.
  • Annie doing a spot for toothpaste.

Or they just give us little bits of background we didn't know, like...

  • Janna and Zilean race airships competitively.
  • Akali really does have nursing experience.
  • Kayle (and likely Morgana) can't get sick because of her race's biology.

These are the things, the little things, that make the lore seem alive, active, and meaningful. The new lore, like it or hate it, good or bad, amounts to 'This is the champion and how they became who they are.' But that's only one part of the story. What are they doing now that they're a champion? How do they interact with other champions? I'd like to see more about that as well.

Verandure2/3/2015, 9:03:09 AM11 votes

-Worldbuilding through updated cartography -Integration of the new lore into what is going to carry over from the old lore -How in the heck Runeterra is able to still function with all of these disasters and genocide-driven characters running about

-In the future, characters playing off one another rather than existing in a vacuum.

The Red Warden2/3/2015, 12:25:46 AM10 votes

Looking at the posts that have already been made, I would say that the thing the retcon lacked most was clarity. Currently we are not sure what is cannon and what is not. Have the city states changed, and if so how? Which champions have canon backgrounds (does Swain still rule Noxus)? What events from the old lore actually happened (did the Ionia-Noxus war actually happen, how did it end without the league intervening)?

Currently it isn't clear how Runeterra is existing and what state each faction is in. I know that most of it is still being figured out, but more clarification is needed for what has changed in Valoran and what hasn't.

KING OF MASKS2/2/2015, 4:28:47 PM9 votes

The most pressing issue right now is that there is nothing tying what lore does exist (i.e. what lore was left after the retcon) to the actual game. What is Summoner's Rift, and why is it constantly being fought over by these champions?

(To a somewhat lesser extent you could ask the same question of the other maps).

Mistress Madoka2/3/2015, 4:39:07 PM9 votes

Personally, My Question is: What Caused Riot to Choose to go down the "Total Retcon" path Instead of Choosing something that would keep Die-hard fans of the old Lore Happy AS WELL as Free the champions ans Their Story arcs from the Institute of War? Something Like a Cataclysmic event that destroys the institute itself and Takes the Summoners down with it. In that Scenario, You can Keep a Lot of the Old Lore, Which some Champions make Little to No Sense without. (Malphite is actually my first thought: The only Reason He is on Runeterra at all is Because a Summoner Summoned him from another dimension.) But now with the institute Destroyed, How can Malphite return to his home? How will Nocturne Be kept in Line? Or Fiddlesticks? Will Lee Sin Mourn the loss of his former Brothers and Sisters? Will Demacia and Noxus Erupt into full-on War? These are just a Few of the Questions that could be expanded on Had the Old lore been kept, but a Destruction/Cataclysm Event taken place.

My main other Questions are (All based on total Retcon):

What is the story behind the Rift? Is it still Between the IronSpike Mountains and Serpentine River? Is there a Story behind the location in the Works? The artwork for it Shows That the bases are parts of an old, Crumbled temple, so that bring the question of Who Built the temples and what purpose did they serve?

The same Questions could be applied to the other Fields of Justice, too. It's At least Clear Where the Howling Abyss and the Twisted Treeline are, But what about Crystal Scar? Is that Still in Kalamanda? Is Kalamanda still Directly between Demacia and Noxus?

What Purposes Do any of the Fields serve now? Were they all Temples like Summoner's Rift? Did they serve the same Purpose, or did they belong to factions separate from the Temples of the Rift?

Who Put the Nexuses on the Howling Abyss? It's Clearly not a Temple. Did the Watchers/Iceborn Know how to Make Nexuses? If that's they case, are they the ones behind the creation of the Other Fields of Justice?

And Lastly: So if previously, the Baron we faced wasn't the REAL Baron Nashor because Summoners thought he'd be too OP, Are we fighting the REAL Baron Nashor Now? If So, he Doesn't seem much more powerful than Fake Baron. (Certainly more deadly, but Still just as Easy to take down.) If it's NOT the Real Baron, Then what is he? Is it a Clone? A Phantom? Rek'sai in Disguise?

TL;DR: SO MANY QUESTIONS RIOT PLZ

CupcakeTrap2/5/2015, 4:02:46 AM9 votes

Here are my questions.

What Champions or settings are being targeted for major rewrites, and when?

This is my primary concern. I have no clue what part of the League setting Narrative is going to go after next. This makes it quite difficult to have any kind of community involvement: I could spend all day making a Bandle City thread for the community to discuss what we like about Bandle City and what we don't like, but I don't know what phase the Bandle City rewrite is in. Perhaps Narrative has already decided what's changing about Bandle City, and it's too late for them to consider community feedback, making the thread a laborious waste of time. Or perhaps nobody at Narrative is even beginning to look at Bandle City, again making it a waste of time (unless they go digging through the archives to find old discussions when they do get around to it.) Or maybe it's in that Goldilocks zone, where someone at Narrative has started sketching out proposed changes to Bandle City, and is in the right phase of the project to be able to benefit from and participate in such a discussion.

Surprises are exciting, but especially in an already inhabited universe, I don't think the element of surprise should be given absolute weight. There are other priorities, like community engagement. There is plenty to surprise us with; complete secrecy about everything is unnecessary.

Is it Narrative's impression that "legal concerns" prevent them from talking about their ideas before they're published?

I couldn't tell if Jaredan was simply saying "we can't post up actual drafts for public comment for copyright reasons", which would make sense, or was further saying, "the legal team tells us that we can't read community ideas or talk about our ideas with the community before they're finalized." I'm no IP lawyer, but that would be pretty crazy. Riot has been collaborating with the community on skins, gameplay mechanics, and even (sometimes) lore for many years. And I don't even know what sort of legal theory you'd use to try to sue Riot for borrowing a story idea from the community, when this tradition makes it perfectly clear that we're posting all these ideas precisely because we want Riot to use them.

If it turns out that Riot really does see a legal risk in even discussing lore ideas on the forum (and if so, that would be seriously shocking to me, in light of Riot's usual modus operandi), then surely that could be addressed by having some annoying disclaimer that says, e.g., "by participating in this discussion, you license Riot Games to make use of your contributions in original or modified form, with or without attribution or compensation."

If Narrative truly believes that it cannot discuss ideas with the community before they're published for legal reasons, and that there is no way to mitigate this risk to an acceptable level (e.g. with a disclaimer), then it's pretty obviously GG for meaningful community engagement. I don't think that's the case, but given Jaredan's earlier remarks, I would like some clarification.

So, can we talk?

With those two preliminaries out of the way, my principal request to Narrative would be to start some discussions on upcoming changes. Let's say that Narrative is planning to, say, make Zaun a suburb of Noxus rather than an independent state. That should be discussed: that's a pretty massive setting change. So open up a Zaun thread and share your ideas for what "the essence of Zaun" might be, and invite the community to discuss.

Of course, I'm not asking for "design by democracy". The decision is ultimately Narrative's. But I think the end results will be more vibrant, and the new lore's legitimacy greater, if the community is involved, especially where Narrative is tearing up and replacing long-standing lore.

Everything else, I feel, is of secondary importance. Sure, it'd be fun to talk to Narrative and get their abstract thoughts on how they develop a story, or who their favorite Champions are, or what their influences have been, but at the end of the day, that's just a pleasant chat, not meaningful community engagement.

Jeddy0172/3/2015, 1:07:10 AM8 votes

1st thing 1st,I want a lore summary of the new lore.What is the lore now?So far & what it seem like it is:A series of events in Runeterra that doesn't connect in anyway other than the fact that they take place on Runeterra?

Why should I care?I want to get into the lore,I want to see the world & stories of my favorite characters like Leona Garen Braum .I'm relatively new to the lore,so I wasn't able to get attached to the whole summoners & IOW thing.Even so,the treatment of the lore greatly concerns me.If the lore team is willing to change an entire character Trundle or completely retcon the entire backstory of the lore with anything substantial to replace it,why should I become involved with this lore?Why should I have serious amount of faith in the lore team when their history says otherwise.I know lore isn't like E-sport,but still....

Now,I don't hate the lore team,I just don't have complete & unwavering faith in them.I'm hopefully that whenever they get serious.........actually,I'm just hopefully that they'll get serious.

Motajo2/2/2015, 10:34:15 PM8 votes

  1. I know it incites smokebombs from Narrative, but I'd like to discuss the retcon. What back-and-forth that happened then could hardly be called that. It feels like they didn't give their full reasoning, and even if they did, they didn't back up their claims when many people's counterpoints shot them down. Riot says there was a load of internal discourse going on about the decision; I'd like to see that.

  2. Others have already brought up that champs need to be updated because of the retcon. I want to know just how much of a champ's Judgment will remain intact. The Judgments may have just been champs reliving their memories, but many of those reflections had character development. The relived events are important, but so are the Judgments themselves.

Which leads me to a more specific, personal/selfish concern. I want to know--even just a little--what's in store for Lux. Judgment canon for any given champ is unclear at best; there's no telling how much will be preserved. With how some champs have been radically changed, I worry that my favorite character is in queue for the same, and I have no idea when Riot will get around to it (I assume it will happen during a Demacia patch).

junglerboy162/3/2015, 1:26:03 AM7 votes

I think the thing I'd like most from the new lore would be more story telling outside of "Here is who this champion is and why" right now, the extent of the Lore we have is basically a little background piece on each champion. I really want to see more interaction between them. even just random things like "X and Y first met this way and this is the story behind it" or "Noxus and Piltover formed a treaty and this is how these champions reacted" and other things like that. The only other thing I really would like is if the new lore came out faster, but I don't think it is fair to demand it immediately, since the creative process is not something you just turn on and make like a factory, it takes creativity and experimentation and invention.

EDIT: The other thing that really concerns me is that the new lore so far completely lacks any form of meta-narrative, or big picture. It doesn't connect anything together yet, and all we have is the little tidbits in the champion lore articles. We don't just want more little lore articles, we want epic tales explaining the essence of existence in Runterra, Valoran, the Void, and beyond. What we have now is a start, but it needs so much more than just these backgrounds.

The kind of thing I'd LOVE to see more of are stories like Sion slaying King Jarvan and then expanding on those really meaty conflicts and issues to explore the political and personal life of Runeterra and its inhabitants.

Finnical2/5/2015, 6:06:54 PM7 votes

Is it ok if I still want the Retcon reverted? I really honestly truly believe it was a mistake and it isn't too late in my opinion to just say, "Oops! Our bad. Nevermind."

Xulsigae2/3/2015, 4:34:59 AM7 votes

I would like to know if and when lore will be produced that couldn't possibly be made with the IoW around. Hasn't happened yet.

I also want to see the opporunity for the lore community to be able to give feedback on lores still in progress rather than having them finished and set in stone.